Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Kevin Kofler via devel]

Neal Gompa wrote:
> To summarize: there's no such thing as a "good" time to do it, and the
> SIG feels that doing it at the Plasma 6.0 major version upgrade allows
> us to reset expectations, as users are used to major versions being
> significantly different than their predecessors. Otherwise, we have to
> do it sometime later in the middle of the Plasma 6.x lifetime, which
> was much less appealing.

I doubt Wayland will be a fully functional replacement for X11 even by the 
time Plasma 7 will be released. Surely not in the 6.x lifetime.

> The discussion on this thread has been mostly quite helpful, and has
> allowed me to provide feedback to KDE developers on prioritizing
> things for Plasma 6 development[2].

Unfortunately, you are only cherry-picking individual issues people have 
found with Wayland (and it is very unlikely they will all be addressed in 
time for F40, as some are quite fundamental and/or require several separate 
codebases to be updated in lockstep) and completely ignoring the general 
opposition to dropping X11 to begin with.

Kevin Kofler
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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Neal Gompa]

On Tue, Sep 26, 2023 at 12:06 PM Maxwell G  wrote:
>
> On Tue Sep 26, 2023 at 13:07 +0200, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:
> > Maxwell G wrote:
> > > Also, I do not like that this is tied together to the Plasma 6 change.
> > > Nobody is actually talking about the subject of the change, KDE Plasma
> > > 6; most of the conversation is about dropping X11 which was tacked on to
> > > this Change.
> > > It would be better as a separate Change with a separate discussion, IMO.
> >
> > +1
> >
> > This looks to me a lot like a typical political maneuver, sneaking an
> > undesirable change into an otherwise desirable larger one in an attempt to
> > get the undesirable part through with less resistance.
>
> I am not suggesting that there is malicious intent here. Even if I do not
> agree with it, the Change owners did justify their reasoning for doing
> this.
>

Indeed. And I added further detail to the Change document about why
we're doing it now instead of later[1].

To summarize: there's no such thing as a "good" time to do it, and the
SIG feels that doing it at the Plasma 6.0 major version upgrade allows
us to reset expectations, as users are used to major versions being
significantly different than their predecessors. Otherwise, we have to
do it sometime later in the middle of the Plasma 6.x lifetime, which
was much less appealing.

The discussion on this thread has been mostly quite helpful, and has
allowed me to provide feedback to KDE developers on prioritizing
things for Plasma 6 development[2].


[1]: 
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/KDE_Plasma_6#Why_drop_the_X11_session_with_the_Plasma_6_upgrade?
[2]: https://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kde-devel/2023-September/002047.html




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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Maxwell G]

On Tue Sep 26, 2023 at 13:07 +0200, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:
> Maxwell G wrote:
> > Also, I do not like that this is tied together to the Plasma 6 change.
> > Nobody is actually talking about the subject of the change, KDE Plasma
> > 6; most of the conversation is about dropping X11 which was tacked on to
> > this Change.
> > It would be better as a separate Change with a separate discussion, IMO.
>
> +1
>
> This looks to me a lot like a typical political maneuver, sneaking an 
> undesirable change into an otherwise desirable larger one in an attempt to 
> get the undesirable part through with less resistance.

I am not suggesting that there is malicious intent here. Even if I do not
agree with it, the Change owners did justify their reasoning for doing
this.

-- 
Maxwell G (@gotmax23)
Pronouns: He/They
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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Kevin Kofler via devel]

Maxwell G wrote:
> Also, I do not like that this is tied together to the Plasma 6 change.
> Nobody is actually talking about the subject of the change, KDE Plasma
> 6; most of the conversation is about dropping X11 which was tacked on to
> this Change.
> It would be better as a separate Change with a separate discussion, IMO.

+1

This looks to me a lot like a typical political maneuver, sneaking an 
undesirable change into an otherwise desirable larger one in an attempt to 
get the undesirable part through with less resistance.

Kevin Kofler
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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Maxwell G]

On Wed Sep 13, 2023 at 16:53 +0100, Aoife Moloney wrote:
> This upgrade is also notable that for Fedora Linux (and Fedora Extra
> Packages for Enterprise Linux 10, once that materializes), KDE Plasma
> will '''not''' offer an X11 session. Fedora KDE has been fully Wayland
> by default from login ([[Changes/WaylandByDefaultForSDDM|since Fedora
> Linux 38]]) to desktop ([[Changes/WaylandByDefaultForPlasma|since
> Fedora Linux 34]]), and the SIG is confident in the quality and
> development around the Plasma Wayland experience to stand fully behind
> it.
>
> == Feedback ==
>
>  Why drop the X11 session? 
>
> Three reasons for this removal:
>
> * 
> [https://access.redhat.com/documentation/en-us/red_hat_enterprise_linux/9/html/9.0_release_notes/deprecated_functionality#JIRA-RHELPLAN-121048
> The Xorg server is deprecated since RHEL 9.0] and will be dropped in
> "a future major RHEL release".
> * Graphics fallback modes are Wayland-friendly now with
> [[Changes/ReplaceFbdevDrivers|SimpleDRM enabled since Fedora Linux
> 36]].
> * NVIDIA drivers (since v495~v515) support GBM for Wayland instead of
> EGLStreams. Wayland is fully supported on current NVIDIA drivers.
>
> This will drastically reduce our support burden and give us the
> ability to focus on quality for the KDE Plasma stack and continue our
> feature-forward nature. The Fedora KDE SIG will maintain a single code
> stream for all supported distribution targets (Fedora Linux 40+,
> Fedora Extra Packages for Enterprise Linux 10+).
>
> This also does not mean that X11 applications will not work in Plasma
> 6, as we will still support Xwayland for running X11 applications on
> Plasma Wayland.

My laptop with NVIDIA Optimus graphics cannot connect to an external
monitor unless I log in to the X11 session. This is a known problem [1].
Please don't throw out the baby with the bath water.
Making Wayland the default and even removing X11 from the default
installation is one thing, but entirely removing it does not make sense
to me.
Some people still have niche usecases that do not work with Wayland.
We can iterate on the Wayland session without breaking users.

Also, I do not like that this is tied together to the Plasma 6 change.
Nobody is actually talking about the subject of the change, KDE Plasma
6; most of the conversation is about dropping X11 which was tacked on to
this Change.
It would be better as a separate Change with a separate discussion, IMO.

[1] https://community.kde.org/Plasma/Wayland_Showstoppers

-- 
Best,


Maxwell G (@gotmax23)
Pronouns: He/They
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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Roberto Ragusa]

On 9/20/23 12:06, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:

Ian Laurie wrote:


On 9/18/23 07:48, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:

SDDM was switched to Wayland for F38 and newer. If you want it to use
X11, you have to edit /etc/sddm.conf and set:

[General]
DisplayServer=x11


*sigh*


I agree with your feeling. My list of "unbreak my Fedora" settings changes
is growing with every release. (E.g., I also disable systemd user sessions
etc.)



Are those available somewhere? Sort of a F38/KDE bag of tricks webpage?
There is a lot of themes, backgrounds and cosmetics things around, but
productivity and compatibility settings or suggestions are very difficult to 
find,
even in cases where someone has to revert some undesired change or regression
introduced in new versions.

Thanks.

--
   Roberto Ragusamail at robertoragusa.it
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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Kevin Kofler via devel]

Ian Laurie wrote:

> On 9/18/23 07:48, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:
>> SDDM was switched to Wayland for F38 and newer. If you want it to use
>> X11, you have to edit /etc/sddm.conf and set:
>>
>> [General]
>> DisplayServer=x11
> 
> *sigh*

I agree with your feeling. My list of "unbreak my Fedora" settings changes 
is growing with every release. (E.g., I also disable systemd user sessions 
etc.)

Kevin Kofler
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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Neal Becker]

On Tue, Sep 19, 2023 at 10:12 AM Neal Gompa  wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 19, 2023 at 9:57 AM Neal Becker  wrote:
> >
> > Some apps that are not open source and we are required to use don't
> cooperate:  see attached
> >
>
> According to this VMware forum post, the warning is annoying, but
> harmless?
> https://communities.vmware.com/t5/Horizon-for-Linux/Anyone-know-if-they-re-working-on-Wayland-support-for-the/td-p/2953800
>
> Thanks!  That does work.
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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Neal Gompa]

On Tue, Sep 19, 2023 at 9:57 AM Neal Becker  wrote:
>
> Some apps that are not open source and we are required to use don't 
> cooperate:  see attached
>

According to this VMware forum post, the warning is annoying, but
harmless? 
https://communities.vmware.com/t5/Horizon-for-Linux/Anyone-know-if-they-re-working-on-Wayland-support-for-the/td-p/2953800




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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Neal Becker]

Some apps that are not open source and we are required to use don't
cooperate:  see attached

On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 11:58 AM Steven A. Falco 
wrote:

> On 9/18/23 11:33 AM, Neal Gompa wrote:
> > On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 11:12 AM Steven A. Falco 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> On 9/17/23 05:48 PM, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:
> >>> Ian Laurie wrote:
>  I didn't think the greeter used Wayland?  So there may be something
> else
>  going on.  I cannot swear to it, but I don't think I've noticed
> problems
>  in the greeter before.
> 
>  As Adam posted, the offset problem already has a bug for it.  Wayland
> is
>  certainly unusable in VirtualBox, but now even the greeter has issues,
>  and I think that's newish.
> >>>
> >>> SDDM was switched to Wayland for F38 and newer. If you want it to use
> X11,
> >>> you have to edit /etc/sddm.conf and set:
> >>>
> >>> [General]
> >>> DisplayServer=x11
> >>>
> >>> there.
> >>>
> >>>   Kevin Kofler
> >>
> >> Yes - I had to do that because the Wayland version of the SDDM greeter
> apparently doesn't honor xrandr.
> >>
> >> I have the following in my /etc/sddm/Xsetup file:
> >>
> >>  #!/usr/bin/sh
> >>  # Xsetup - run as root before the login dialog appears
> >>  xrandr --output DisplayPort-0 --right-of DisplayPort-1
> >>
> >> If I have the greeter set to x11 that works perfectly, but if I have
> the greeter set to wayland it is ignored.
> >>
> >> I don't know if there is a way to tell wayland the desired screen
> arrangement.  If there is a way I'd like to hear about it.  If there isn't
> a way, then I guess that should be another bug.
> >>
> >
> > kwin can be configured using kscreen-doctor, as long as the kwin
> > wayland socket is up.
>
> Thanks, Neal.  I'll give that a try at some point.
>
> Steve
>
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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Steven A. Falco]

On 9/18/23 11:33 AM, Neal Gompa wrote:

On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 11:12 AM Steven A. Falco  wrote:


On 9/17/23 05:48 PM, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:

Ian Laurie wrote:

I didn't think the greeter used Wayland?  So there may be something else
going on.  I cannot swear to it, but I don't think I've noticed problems
in the greeter before.

As Adam posted, the offset problem already has a bug for it.  Wayland is
certainly unusable in VirtualBox, but now even the greeter has issues,
and I think that's newish.


SDDM was switched to Wayland for F38 and newer. If you want it to use X11,
you have to edit /etc/sddm.conf and set:

[General]
DisplayServer=x11

there.

  Kevin Kofler


Yes - I had to do that because the Wayland version of the SDDM greeter 
apparently doesn't honor xrandr.

I have the following in my /etc/sddm/Xsetup file:

 #!/usr/bin/sh
 # Xsetup - run as root before the login dialog appears
 xrandr --output DisplayPort-0 --right-of DisplayPort-1

If I have the greeter set to x11 that works perfectly, but if I have the 
greeter set to wayland it is ignored.

I don't know if there is a way to tell wayland the desired screen arrangement.  
If there is a way I'd like to hear about it.  If there isn't a way, then I 
guess that should be another bug.



kwin can be configured using kscreen-doctor, as long as the kwin
wayland socket is up.


Thanks, Neal.  I'll give that a try at some point.

Steve

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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Neal Gompa]

On Mon, Sep 18, 2023 at 11:12 AM Steven A. Falco  wrote:
>
> On 9/17/23 05:48 PM, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:
> > Ian Laurie wrote:
> >> I didn't think the greeter used Wayland?  So there may be something else
> >> going on.  I cannot swear to it, but I don't think I've noticed problems
> >> in the greeter before.
> >>
> >> As Adam posted, the offset problem already has a bug for it.  Wayland is
> >> certainly unusable in VirtualBox, but now even the greeter has issues,
> >> and I think that's newish.
> >
> > SDDM was switched to Wayland for F38 and newer. If you want it to use X11,
> > you have to edit /etc/sddm.conf and set:
> >
> > [General]
> > DisplayServer=x11
> >
> > there.
> >
> >  Kevin Kofler
>
> Yes - I had to do that because the Wayland version of the SDDM greeter 
> apparently doesn't honor xrandr.
>
> I have the following in my /etc/sddm/Xsetup file:
>
> #!/usr/bin/sh
> # Xsetup - run as root before the login dialog appears
> xrandr --output DisplayPort-0 --right-of DisplayPort-1
>
> If I have the greeter set to x11 that works perfectly, but if I have the 
> greeter set to wayland it is ignored.
>
> I don't know if there is a way to tell wayland the desired screen 
> arrangement.  If there is a way I'd like to hear about it.  If there isn't a 
> way, then I guess that should be another bug.
>

kwin can be configured using kscreen-doctor, as long as the kwin
wayland socket is up.


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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Steven A. Falco]

On 9/17/23 05:48 PM, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:

Ian Laurie wrote:

I didn't think the greeter used Wayland?  So there may be something else
going on.  I cannot swear to it, but I don't think I've noticed problems
in the greeter before.
  
As Adam posted, the offset problem already has a bug for it.  Wayland is

certainly unusable in VirtualBox, but now even the greeter has issues,
and I think that's newish.


SDDM was switched to Wayland for F38 and newer. If you want it to use X11,
you have to edit /etc/sddm.conf and set:

[General]
DisplayServer=x11

there.

 Kevin Kofler


Yes - I had to do that because the Wayland version of the SDDM greeter 
apparently doesn't honor xrandr.

I have the following in my /etc/sddm/Xsetup file:

   #!/usr/bin/sh
   # Xsetup - run as root before the login dialog appears
   xrandr --output DisplayPort-0 --right-of DisplayPort-1

If I have the greeter set to x11 that works perfectly, but if I have the 
greeter set to wayland it is ignored.

I don't know if there is a way to tell wayland the desired screen arrangement.  
If there is a way I'd like to hear about it.  If there isn't a way, then I 
guess that should be another bug.

Steve

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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Ian Laurie]

On 9/18/23 07:48, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:

SDDM was switched to Wayland for F38 and newer. If you want it to use X11,
you have to edit /etc/sddm.conf and set:

[General]
DisplayServer=x11


*sigh*

Well... setting DisplayServer=x11 works, the greeter works properly now.

Thanks.

--
Ian Laurie
FAS: nixuser | IRC: nixuser
TZ: Australia/Sydney
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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Sebastian Crane]

Dear Michael,

> Full disclosure: Writing this from F38/X11/i3 ;-)
> F39 should be a good release to try the switch (Wayland/sway for me),
> and in fact for some releases we have had dual session options now at
> least for Gnome and KDE (X11/Wayland) so that one could try and switch
> apps gradually. Reliance on WebRTC (and the switches i3/sway, st/foot
> etc) made me chicken out so far, but now is the time!

I'm also writing this reply from X11, but I wanted to suggest that you
try the Alacritty terminal emulator if you haven't already. It has made
a wonderful replacement for st for me (I absolutely needed full-colour
emoji support; having emojis kill my terminal and IRC client like
clockwork was not tenable. But I digress!). It claims to have full
native Wayland support, although I can't remember if I used that mode.

Best wishes,

Sebastian
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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Sérgio Basto]

On Sun, 2023-09-17 at 23:48 +0200, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:
> Ian Laurie wrote:
> > I didn't think the greeter used Wayland?  So there may be something
> > else
> > going on.  I cannot swear to it, but I don't think I've noticed
> > problems
> > in the greeter before.
> >  
> > As Adam posted, the offset problem already has a bug for it. 
> > Wayland is
> > certainly unusable in VirtualBox, but now even the greeter has
> > issues,
> > and I think that's newish.
> 
> SDDM was switched to Wayland for F38 and newer. If you want it to use
> X11, 
> you have to edit /etc/sddm.conf and set:
> 
> [General]
> DisplayServer=x11
> 

Ah , thank you,  I also had problem with my laptop and nvidia prime
graphics 

BTW I want use KDE 5 plasma , because it is stable, I think for Fedora
40 is to early . I use KDE to work , I'm don't pretend to be a beta
tester , and by the experiences of the fiascos of kde 4 and kde 5 move
, I don't believe that KDE 6 will be different , Fedora 40 should have
the option of have KDE 5, IMHO .






> there.
> 
>     Kevin Kofler
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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Kevin Kofler via devel]

Ian Laurie wrote:
> I didn't think the greeter used Wayland?  So there may be something else
> going on.  I cannot swear to it, but I don't think I've noticed problems
> in the greeter before.
>  
> As Adam posted, the offset problem already has a bug for it.  Wayland is
> certainly unusable in VirtualBox, but now even the greeter has issues,
> and I think that's newish.

SDDM was switched to Wayland for F38 and newer. If you want it to use X11, 
you have to edit /etc/sddm.conf and set:

[General]
DisplayServer=x11

there.

Kevin Kofler
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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Ondrej Mosnáček]

On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 5:54 PM Aoife Moloney  wrote:
> == Summary ==
> KDE Plasma 6 is successor to KDE Plasma 5 created by the KDE
> Community. It is based on Qt 6 and KDE Frameworks 6 and brings many
> changes and improvements over previous versions. For Fedora Linux, the
> transition to KDE Plasma 6 will also include dropping support for the
> X11 session entirely, leaving only Plasma Wayland as the sole offered
> desktop mode.

For me, the biggest blocker for switching to Wayland is the lack of
session restore support (https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=436318).
I have a bunch of text editor and file browser windows permanently
open across several activities and losing the layout after every
reboot would be a big productivity killer for me.

This is even listed right at the top of the showstoppers list on the KDE wiki:
https://community.kde.org/Plasma/Wayland_Showstoppers

Please don't remove X11 support until this is fixed (implemented) :(
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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Mattia Verga via devel]

Il 15/09/23 11:25, Marcin Juszkiewicz ha scritto:
> W dniu 13.09.2023 o 17:53, Aoife Moloney pisze:
>
>> == Summary ==
>> KDE Plasma 6 is successor to KDE Plasma 5 created by the KDE
>> Community. It is based on Qt 6 and KDE Frameworks 6 and brings many
>> changes and improvements over previous versions. For Fedora Linux, the
>> transition to KDE Plasma 6 will also include dropping support for the
>> X11 session entirely, leaving only Plasma Wayland as the sole offered
>> desktop mode.
> Which leaves us with "Numpad shortcuts don't work in wayland sessions"
> bug in KDE/Wayland:
>
> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=453423
>
> Someone in KDE decided to treat KEY_KP1 ("1" on numpad part of pc105
> keyboard) in same way as KEY_1 ("1" on alphanumeric part of pc105
> keyboard). Which breaks several setups where people use shortcuts with
> numpad keys (for me it is Meta+KP[1-9] to organize windows).
>
>
> This bug is one of reasons I am still on KDE/X11 rather than KDE/Wayland.
>
Interesting, see also what I reported about the decimal separator from 
the numpad not honouring the locale setting:

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2215739
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=449706
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=143540

So the whole numpad in kde-wayland doesn't work as expected. 
Unfortunately, it doesn't seem anyone cares because "can be worked 
around by using the other key". Hopefully, when everyone will be forced 
to Wayland and start reporting broken things, someone will look at that.

Mattia

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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Ian Laurie]

On 9/14/23 10:13, Adam Williamson wrote:

There is https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=427060 and
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=449331 which is marked as a dupe
of it. Later comments on 427060 indicate some folks still have issues
with this.

My personal bugbear that I'd really like fixed is:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2016563
https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/spice/linux/vd_agent/-/issues/26


I created a VirtualBox KDE instance using:
Fedora-Everything-netinst-x86_64-39_Beta-1.1.iso.  System was updated
with updates-testing enabled.

There are problems even before you login.  The mouse pointer works in
reverse in the greeter, vertical bar over the background, then an arrow
pointer when you hover over the password entry area.

After logging into a Wayland session the mouse weirdness continues with
random (it seems) pointers... sometimes an arrow pointer and sometimes a
vertical bar to select text, but not coinciding with where the cursor
is.  With text in KWrite, and the cursor being an arrow when it should
be a vertical bar, there is a big offset, so you end up selecting the
text on the line below the line you want.

After logging out it was a chore trying to select X11 because the offset
was present in the greeter (I don't believe I have experienced that
before) and you were trying to go lower than the screen to try and
select X11 from the drop-down.

Once in the X11 session everything just works like it should.

Logging out of X11 and back to the greeter things go weird again.

I didn't think the greeter used Wayland?  So there may be something else
going on.  I cannot swear to it, but I don't think I've noticed problems
in the greeter before.

As Adam posted, the offset problem already has a bug for it.  Wayland is
certainly unusable in VirtualBox, but now even the greeter has issues,
and I think that's newish.

--
Ian Laurie
FAS: nixuser | IRC: nixuser
TZ: Australia/Sydney
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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Kevin Kofler via devel]

Neal Gompa wrote:
> I am interested in learning where you're seeing screen sharing issues
> today.

Quoting myself from:
https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/f40-change-proposal-kde-plasma-6-system-wide/89794/7

I wrote there:
> As for screensharing on Wayland, that does not work with Falkon due to the
> Qt5 QtWebEngine not supporting the system version of Pipewire (which is
> too new for it) and hence being built without Pipewire support. So this
> cannot be tested until we have Qt 6 Falkon (which exists in an unmerged
> upstream branch right now).

Kevin Kofler
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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Marcin Juszkiewicz]

W dniu 13.09.2023 o 17:53, Aoife Moloney pisze:


== Summary ==
KDE Plasma 6 is successor to KDE Plasma 5 created by the KDE
Community. It is based on Qt 6 and KDE Frameworks 6 and brings many
changes and improvements over previous versions. For Fedora Linux, the
transition to KDE Plasma 6 will also include dropping support for the
X11 session entirely, leaving only Plasma Wayland as the sole offered
desktop mode.


Which leaves us with "Numpad shortcuts don't work in wayland sessions" 
bug in KDE/Wayland:


https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=453423

Someone in KDE decided to treat KEY_KP1 ("1" on numpad part of pc105 
keyboard) in same way as KEY_1 ("1" on alphanumeric part of pc105 
keyboard). Which breaks several setups where people use shortcuts with 
numpad keys (for me it is Meta+KP[1-9] to organize windows).



This bug is one of reasons I am still on KDE/X11 rather than KDE/Wayland.

Other reasons are:

1. Zoom meeting app which is unable to share Wayland windows
2. RSIBreak app is unable to track activity
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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Steven A. Falco]

On 9/14/23 04:20 PM, Steven A. Falco wrote:

I've written a bug [1] stating that window placement appears to be ignored.  
Specifically the following command ignores the requested placement under 
Plasma(Wayland) but the placement is honored under Plasma(X11).  That is a big 
problem in a multi-screen environment:

/usr/bin/konsole --qwindowgeometry 675x678+3754+870 &

 Steve

[1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2239016


One more for now, but then I have to go back to X11.  For some reason, some 
windows are not remembered between sessions [1].

[1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2239029

Steve

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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Steven A. Falco]

On 9/14/23 06:36 AM, Ian McInerney wrote:



On Thu, 14 Sep 2023, 00:17 Neal Gompa, mailto:ngomp...@gmail.com>> wrote:

On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 7:02 PM Steven A. Falco mailto:stevenfa...@gmail.com>> wrote:
 >
 > On 9/13/23 05:23 PM, Neal Gompa wrote:
 > > Right. And I want to stress we are not dropping support for X11
 > > applications. Anything running as an X client in a desktop should work
 > > as it has before.
 >
 > I'm not convinced KiCad will work in that scenario, so please let me 
summarize what I've read here, and please correct me if I have any of this wrong.
 >
 > The thing being removed is "Plasma(X11)", which is a native X11 stack; 
i.e. no Wayland or Xwayland is involved when using Plasma(X11).  This mode is well supported 
by KiCad, and additionally it works well with my multi-monitor setup.
 >
 > Should the change proposal be accepted, "Plasma(X11)" will be removed, leaving 
"Plasma(Wayland)" as the only available KDE mode.  Also, all X11 applications will then be 
forced to use XWayland rather than X11, at least under KDE.
 >
 > Assuming my summary is correct, here are my personal problems:
 >
 > Problem 1: The KiCad team says they don't support XWayland (nor do they 
support pure Wayland) because of bugs.
 >

 >From what I've read through the issues, the ultimate problem is in
GTK, not wxWidgets, as there is in fact a supported Wayland protocol
for mouse warping[1]. Does this issue exist when using wxQt instead of
wxGTK? Admittedly, I'm not sure of the state of things with wxWidgets
and the backends...

[1]: https://wayland.app/protocols/pointer-constraints-unstable-v1 



Speaking as a member of the KiCad core development team, I am not convinced that 
extension will be easy to use. When I looked at it a few weeks ago, it still seemed 
to have portability problems between compositors/WM implementations. (See here for my 
conclusion 
https://github.com/wxWidgets/wxWidgets/issues/23778#issuecomment-1680398578 
). 
As a project, we already have to deal with enough problems from supporting MSW, macOS 
and Linux that having to now workaround quirks in different graphics stacks is not 
something we have the time or developer effort to do. We would rather be actually 
creating the features all our users need for their work instead of having to fight 
with the graphics stacks all the time.

And aside from the mouse warping, we also want the ability to control where 
windows are placed on the screen. We are a multi-window application, and our 
users usually have a preferred setup for how the windows are arranged on their 
screen. Right now, we can save/restore that for them, but my understanding of 
the Wayland spec is that this is not allowed and so we are at the mercy of the 
desktop to put the windows where it wants.

-Ian


I've written a bug [1] stating that window placement appears to be ignored.  
Specifically the following command ignores the requested placement under 
Plasma(Wayland) but the placement is honored under Plasma(X11).  That is a big 
problem in a multi-screen environment:

/usr/bin/konsole --qwindowgeometry 675x678+3754+870 &

Steve

[1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2239016
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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Fabio Valentini]

On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 8:29 PM Ian Pilcher  wrote:
>
> On 9/14/23 11:15, Neal Gompa wrote:
> > I am interested in learning where you're seeing screen sharing issues
> > today. The main one people bring up with me is video conferencing
> > systems, and because of completely unrelated reasons, I've been on a
> > binge of using a variety of them.
>
> I thought that I had it working.  Then it failed with Google Meet and
> Firefox when I put a Google Slides presentation into full screen mode.
>
> I.e., it worked fine at first, but other people only saw a black screen
> when I put the presentation into full screen mode.
>
> Fortunately, this was an internal team call, but this sort of thing is
> a disaster in a customer-facing situation.  To not have the ability to
> switch back to X11 is (IMO) unacceptable.  (I certainly wouldn't be able
> to use Fedora/Plasma on my work laptop.)

Fedora 40 will be released ~7 months from now, so it's not like
there's still ample time to find, report, and fix bugs like this ...

, in case it wasn't obvious.

Fabio
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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Ian Pilcher]

On 9/14/23 11:15, Neal Gompa wrote:

I am interested in learning where you're seeing screen sharing issues
today. The main one people bring up with me is video conferencing
systems, and because of completely unrelated reasons, I've been on a
binge of using a variety of them.


I thought that I had it working.  Then it failed with Google Meet and
Firefox when I put a Google Slides presentation into full screen mode.

I.e., it worked fine at first, but other people only saw a black screen
when I put the presentation into full screen mode.

Fortunately, this was an internal team call, but this sort of thing is
a disaster in a customer-facing situation.  To not have the ability to
switch back to X11 is (IMO) unacceptable.  (I certainly wouldn't be able
to use Fedora/Plasma on my work laptop.)

--

Google  Where SkyNet meets Idiocracy


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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Neal Gompa]

On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 11:56 AM Ian Pilcher  wrote:
>
> On 9/13/23 12:52, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:
> >> For Fedora Linux, the transition to KDE Plasma 6 will also include
> >> dropping support for the X11 session entirely, leaving only Plasma Wayland
> >> as the sole offered desktop mode.
> >
> > Huh?! Why?! KDE upstream is still supporting X11 in Plasma 6. I see no
> > reason to force Wayland upon all users. I do not want Wayland on my desktop
> > (it is already enough of a pain that it is forced upon us by Plasma Mobile
> > on the PinePhone) and I will have to switch to another distribution and
> > orphan all my packages if this happens.
>
> There are critical pieces of functionality (e.g. screen sharing) that
> still don't work reliably on Wayland.
>

I am interested in learning where you're seeing screen sharing issues
today. The main one people bring up with me is video conferencing
systems, and because of completely unrelated reasons, I've been on a
binge of using a variety of them.

On my Plasma Wayland environment using Firefox (v117 from Fedora), I
was able to successfully use the following conferencing platforms with
screen sharing:

* Google Meet
* Jitsi Meet
* Big Blue Button

I have additionally verified using Google Chrome (v116 from Google),
that I was able to successfully use the following platforms with
screen sharing:

* Google Meet
* Jitsi Meet
* Big Blue Button
* Microsoft Teams
* Amazon Chime
* Cisco WebEx
* Zoom

Special note about Zoom: if you're using the desktop application,
there is a small workaround required: it needs to currently be tricked
into thinking it's running on GNOME to run the Wayland support code.
This was not needed for a short time, but for some reason, they put it
back.

To fix this, make a copy of the Zoom desktop file in
`/usr/share/applications` and put it in `~/.local/share/applications`,
then edit the `Exec=` line in the new file to prepend
`XDG_CURRENT_DESKTOP=GNOME` to the Zoom binary call. That will allow
the Wayland code to work. The code works fine on KDE Plasma, since it
uses the xdg-desktop-portal system. If you're a customer of Zoom,
please complain to them. Alas, I no longer am, so I have no stick I
can wave to get them to fix things anymore.




--
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Ian Pilcher]

On 9/13/23 12:52, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:

For Fedora Linux, the transition to KDE Plasma 6 will also include
dropping support for the X11 session entirely, leaving only Plasma Wayland
as the sole offered desktop mode.


Huh?! Why?! KDE upstream is still supporting X11 in Plasma 6. I see no
reason to force Wayland upon all users. I do not want Wayland on my desktop
(it is already enough of a pain that it is forced upon us by Plasma Mobile
on the PinePhone) and I will have to switch to another distribution and
orphan all my packages if this happens.


There are critical pieces of functionality (e.g. screen sharing) that
still don't work reliably on Wayland.

--

Google  Where SkyNet meets Idiocracy


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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Ian McInerney via devel]

On Thu, 14 Sep 2023, 09:24 Michael J Gruber,  wrote:

> Am Mi., 13. Sept. 2023 um 23:29 Uhr schrieb Neal Gompa  >:
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 5:24 PM Fabio Valentini 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 11:19 PM Steven A. Falco <
> stevenfa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > A question about this - the removal of X11 is listed on a change
> proposal for KDE.  Does the removal just apply to KDE or would it be
> distribution wide; i.e. affecting all desktops?
> > >
> > > I assume the following is not meant literally:
> > >
> > > """
> > > For Fedora Linux, the
> > > transition to KDE Plasma 6 will also include dropping support for the
> > > X11 session entirely, leaving only Plasma Wayland as the sole offered
> > > desktop mode.
> > > """
> > >
> > > I doubt that the intention is to drop X11 sessions entirely and make
> > > "Plasma Wayland" the only session available on Fedora *in general*,
> > > but rather that the "Plasma X11" session will be dropped, and that
> > > "Plasma Wayland" will be the only *Plasma* session available.
> > >
> >
> > Yes! Sorry if it's ambiguous, it's hard to write this to account for
> > all the ways it can be interpreted. This is scoped to the KDE Plasma
> > solution stack.
>
> The proposal is clearly about KDE plasma and *its* sessions. Or else
> "leaving only Plasma Wayland as the sole offered desktop mode" would
> have to mean the end of all other desktops on Fedora ;-)
>
> > Other desktops can and will make their own choices on the transition to
> Wayland.
>
> Rightly so. Fewer and fewer will pull in X11, and that's a good change.
>
> Now, if you (as in "they" - not  you Neal, obviously) see "change" and
> something Wayland has not worked in the past and you go ballistic
> about it then for you (as in "they") that formulation might be
> ambiguous. But if you take a breath or a step back or both then the
> proposal is crystal clear. At the same time, there is no way around it
> given upstream's directions.
>
> Talking of upstream: I see some upstreams giving up on Wayland
> support. Kicad was reported here, Scribus is another one. It's a
> surprising time to do that, but probably indicates toolkit issues or
> simply lack of people power. I hope we can help at least on the
> toolkit side. That would be time well spent - invested in the future
> of the platform.


The decision to not support Wayland in KiCad was taken because the graphics
stacks didn't have the features we relied on to provide the UI/UX wanted by
our users (mainly pointer warping and window positioning, but there maybe
others I can't recall now), and whenever we found discussions about having
those kind of things in upstream toolkits like GTK4/Wayland, it always
seemed to be greeted with responses that that seemed to convey "don't do
that, it is terrible UI/UX and you are idiots for wanting it. We [the
upstream devs] know exactly what every application should do and so you can
either do it our way or go away and shut up." So, we decided not to invest
anymore time or energy in this and just said "we don't support Wayland." I
don't know if the attitude of the upstream projects has changed or not, but
this previous response has soured our taste for doing work on it.

-Ian


Nobody will stop anyone from shipping a plasma-x11
> package (and it's ridiculous to try and read that into the proposal)
> or even a full stack plasma 5, but that will just drag out the
> transition that is happening nonetheless.
>
> Full disclosure: Writing this from F38/X11/i3 ;-)
> F39 should be a good release to try the switch (Wayland/sway for me),
> and in fact for some releases we have had dual session options now at
> least for Gnome and KDE (X11/Wayland) so that one could try and switch
> apps gradually. Reliance on WebRTC (and the switches i3/sway, st/foot
> etc) made me chicken out so far, but now is the time!
>
> Michael
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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Ian McInerney via devel]

On Thu, 14 Sep 2023, 00:17 Neal Gompa,  wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 7:02 PM Steven A. Falco 
> wrote:
> >
> > On 9/13/23 05:23 PM, Neal Gompa wrote:
> > > Right. And I want to stress we are not dropping support for X11
> > > applications. Anything running as an X client in a desktop should work
> > > as it has before.
> >
> > I'm not convinced KiCad will work in that scenario, so please let me
> summarize what I've read here, and please correct me if I have any of this
> wrong.
> >
> > The thing being removed is "Plasma(X11)", which is a native X11 stack;
> i.e. no Wayland or Xwayland is involved when using Plasma(X11).  This mode
> is well supported by KiCad, and additionally it works well with my
> multi-monitor setup.
> >
> > Should the change proposal be accepted, "Plasma(X11)" will be removed,
> leaving "Plasma(Wayland)" as the only available KDE mode.  Also, all X11
> applications will then be forced to use XWayland rather than X11, at least
> under KDE.
> >
> > Assuming my summary is correct, here are my personal problems:
> >
> > Problem 1: The KiCad team says they don't support XWayland (nor do they
> support pure Wayland) because of bugs.
> >
>
> From what I've read through the issues, the ultimate problem is in
> GTK, not wxWidgets, as there is in fact a supported Wayland protocol
> for mouse warping[1]. Does this issue exist when using wxQt instead of
> wxGTK? Admittedly, I'm not sure of the state of things with wxWidgets
> and the backends...
>
> [1]: https://wayland.app/protocols/pointer-constraints-unstable-v1
>
>
Speaking as a member of the KiCad core development team, I am not convinced
that extension will be easy to use. When I looked at it a few weeks ago, it
still seemed to have portability problems between compositors/WM
implementations. (See here for my conclusion
https://github.com/wxWidgets/wxWidgets/issues/23778#issuecomment-1680398578).
As a project, we already have to deal with enough problems from supporting
MSW, macOS and Linux that having to now workaround quirks in different
graphics stacks is not something we have the time or developer effort to
do. We would rather be actually creating the features all our users need
for their work instead of having to fight with the graphics stacks all the
time.

And aside from the mouse warping, we also want the ability to control where
windows are placed on the screen. We are a multi-window application, and
our users usually have a preferred setup for how the windows are arranged
on their screen. Right now, we can save/restore that for them, but my
understanding of the Wayland spec is that this is not allowed and so we are
at the mercy of the desktop to put the windows where it wants.

-Ian


> Problem 2: Plasma(Wayland) doesn't work with my multi-monitor setup.
> >
>
> Do you have a bug report filed at bugs.kde.org about your setup? The
> KDE folks can take a look and we can try to have things fixed in
> Plasma (in Plasma 5 today or Plasma 6 when it lands).
>
> > Conclusion: If there are remaining Fedora desktops using X11, I might be
> able to continue using Fedora, and I might be able to continue supporting
> KiCad, _assuming_ I'm willing to switch to another desktop.  Of course,
> after having used KDE for 20+ years, switching is not very appealing, nor
> is it very likely, frankly.
> >
>
> Part of the reason for filing this Change is to shake out these cases
> and make sure we can get them covered. For what it's worth, I want you
> to have a good experience on Plasma Wayland, and I'm happy to help try
> to facilitate that however I can.
>
>
> --
> 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Michael J Gruber]

Am Mi., 13. Sept. 2023 um 23:29 Uhr schrieb Neal Gompa :
>
> On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 5:24 PM Fabio Valentini  wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 11:19 PM Steven A. Falco  
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > A question about this - the removal of X11 is listed on a change proposal 
> > > for KDE.  Does the removal just apply to KDE or would it be distribution 
> > > wide; i.e. affecting all desktops?
> >
> > I assume the following is not meant literally:
> >
> > """
> > For Fedora Linux, the
> > transition to KDE Plasma 6 will also include dropping support for the
> > X11 session entirely, leaving only Plasma Wayland as the sole offered
> > desktop mode.
> > """
> >
> > I doubt that the intention is to drop X11 sessions entirely and make
> > "Plasma Wayland" the only session available on Fedora *in general*,
> > but rather that the "Plasma X11" session will be dropped, and that
> > "Plasma Wayland" will be the only *Plasma* session available.
> >
>
> Yes! Sorry if it's ambiguous, it's hard to write this to account for
> all the ways it can be interpreted. This is scoped to the KDE Plasma
> solution stack.

The proposal is clearly about KDE plasma and *its* sessions. Or else
"leaving only Plasma Wayland as the sole offered desktop mode" would
have to mean the end of all other desktops on Fedora ;-)

> Other desktops can and will make their own choices on the transition to 
> Wayland.

Rightly so. Fewer and fewer will pull in X11, and that's a good change.

Now, if you (as in "they" - not  you Neal, obviously) see "change" and
something Wayland has not worked in the past and you go ballistic
about it then for you (as in "they") that formulation might be
ambiguous. But if you take a breath or a step back or both then the
proposal is crystal clear. At the same time, there is no way around it
given upstream's directions.

Talking of upstream: I see some upstreams giving up on Wayland
support. Kicad was reported here, Scribus is another one. It's a
surprising time to do that, but probably indicates toolkit issues or
simply lack of people power. I hope we can help at least on the
toolkit side. That would be time well spent - invested in the future
of the platform. Nobody will stop anyone from shipping a plasma-x11
package (and it's ridiculous to try and read that into the proposal)
or even a full stack plasma 5, but that will just drag out the
transition that is happening nonetheless.

Full disclosure: Writing this from F38/X11/i3 ;-)
F39 should be a good release to try the switch (Wayland/sway for me),
and in fact for some releases we have had dual session options now at
least for Gnome and KDE (X11/Wayland) so that one could try and switch
apps gradually. Reliance on WebRTC (and the switches i3/sway, st/foot
etc) made me chicken out so far, but now is the time!

Michael
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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Adam Williamson]

On Wed, 2023-09-13 at 19:48 -0400, Neal Gompa wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 7:45 PM Ian Laurie  wrote:
> > 
> > On 9/14/23 05:58, František Šumšal wrote:
> > > I second this as well. I tried to use Wayland with Plasma, but there's
> > > a weird issue where with a multi-monitor setup, switching focus from
> > 
> > I have repeatedly tried Plasma on Wayland as VirtualBox guests and it
> > simply doesn't work.  There is a weird 10 to 20 pixel offset between the
> > visible mouse pointer and  what the GUI thinks is being pointed at...
> > which makes the GUI unusable.  I've reported this problem in the deep
> > dark past somewhere but nothing was done about it.  I've seen the
> > problem as recently as F38 during its beta period.  Plasma on X11 works
> > as expected.
> > 
> > I'm an Xfce user so my care factor is minimal.  I've not tried Plasma on
> > Wayland in the 39 branch yet but I do intend to.
> > 
> 
> Would you please report this to bugs.kde.org if it shows up in Fedora
> 39 KDE Beta? 
> https://bugs.kde.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=kwin=wayland-generic

There is https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=427060 and
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=449331 which is marked as a dupe
of it. Later comments on 427060 indicate some folks still have issues
with this.

My personal bugbear that I'd really like fixed is:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2016563
https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/spice/linux/vd_agent/-/issues/26

not being able to copy from or paste into KDE VMs is extremely
annoying, especially for testing.
-- 
Adam Williamson (he/him/his)
Fedora QA
Fedora Chat: @adamwill:fedora.im | Mastodon: @ad...@fosstodon.org
https://www.happyassassin.net



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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Ian Laurie]

On 9/14/23 09:48, Neal Gompa wrote:

On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 7:45 PM Ian Laurie  wrote:

I'm an Xfce user so my care factor is minimal.  I've not tried Plasma on
Wayland in the 39 branch yet but I do intend to.



Would you please report this to bugs.kde.org if it shows up in Fedora
39 KDE Beta? 
https://bugs.kde.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=kwin=wayland-generic


I'll try to do this Saturday my time.  I'll also report results here.

--
Ian Laurie
FAS: nixuser | IRC: nixuser
TZ: Australia/Sydney
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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Neal Gompa]

On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 7:45 PM Ian Laurie  wrote:
>
> On 9/14/23 05:58, František Šumšal wrote:
> > I second this as well. I tried to use Wayland with Plasma, but there's
> > a weird issue where with a multi-monitor setup, switching focus from
>
> I have repeatedly tried Plasma on Wayland as VirtualBox guests and it
> simply doesn't work.  There is a weird 10 to 20 pixel offset between the
> visible mouse pointer and  what the GUI thinks is being pointed at...
> which makes the GUI unusable.  I've reported this problem in the deep
> dark past somewhere but nothing was done about it.  I've seen the
> problem as recently as F38 during its beta period.  Plasma on X11 works
> as expected.
>
> I'm an Xfce user so my care factor is minimal.  I've not tried Plasma on
> Wayland in the 39 branch yet but I do intend to.
>

Would you please report this to bugs.kde.org if it shows up in Fedora
39 KDE Beta? 
https://bugs.kde.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=kwin=wayland-generic



-- 
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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Scott Talbert]

On Wed, 13 Sep 2023, Neal Gompa wrote:


On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 7:02 PM Steven A. Falco  wrote:


On 9/13/23 05:23 PM, Neal Gompa wrote:

Right. And I want to stress we are not dropping support for X11
applications. Anything running as an X client in a desktop should work
as it has before.


I'm not convinced KiCad will work in that scenario, so please let me summarize 
what I've read here, and please correct me if I have any of this wrong.

The thing being removed is "Plasma(X11)", which is a native X11 stack; i.e. no 
Wayland or Xwayland is involved when using Plasma(X11).  This mode is well supported by 
KiCad, and additionally it works well with my multi-monitor setup.

Should the change proposal be accepted, "Plasma(X11)" will be removed, leaving 
"Plasma(Wayland)" as the only available KDE mode.  Also, all X11 applications will then 
be forced to use XWayland rather than X11, at least under KDE.

Assuming my summary is correct, here are my personal problems:

Problem 1: The KiCad team says they don't support XWayland (nor do they support 
pure Wayland) because of bugs.



From what I've read through the issues, the ultimate problem is in
GTK, not wxWidgets, as there is in fact a supported Wayland protocol
for mouse warping[1]. Does this issue exist when using wxQt instead of
wxGTK? Admittedly, I'm not sure of the state of things with wxWidgets
and the backends...

[1]: https://wayland.app/protocols/pointer-constraints-unstable-v1


wxQt port is experimental at this point.  I'm not aware of it being used 
widely.


wxWidgets would be glad to support cursor warping on Wayland.  It just 
needs someone who knows how do it to implement it, if GTK isn't going to 
offer an API.


Does QCursor::setPos() work on Wayland?

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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Ian Laurie]

On 9/14/23 05:58, František Šumšal wrote:

I second this as well. I tried to use Wayland with Plasma, but there's
a weird issue where with a multi-monitor setup, switching focus from


I have repeatedly tried Plasma on Wayland as VirtualBox guests and it
simply doesn't work.  There is a weird 10 to 20 pixel offset between the
visible mouse pointer and  what the GUI thinks is being pointed at...
which makes the GUI unusable.  I've reported this problem in the deep
dark past somewhere but nothing was done about it.  I've seen the
problem as recently as F38 during its beta period.  Plasma on X11 works
as expected.

I'm an Xfce user so my care factor is minimal.  I've not tried Plasma on
Wayland in the 39 branch yet but I do intend to.

--
Ian Laurie
FAS: nixuser | IRC: nixuser
TZ: Australia/Sydney
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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Steven A. Falco]

On 9/13/23 07:16 PM, Neal Gompa wrote:

On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 7:02 PM Steven A. Falco  wrote:


On 9/13/23 05:23 PM, Neal Gompa wrote:

Right. And I want to stress we are not dropping support for X11
applications. Anything running as an X client in a desktop should work
as it has before.


I'm not convinced KiCad will work in that scenario, so please let me summarize 
what I've read here, and please correct me if I have any of this wrong.

The thing being removed is "Plasma(X11)", which is a native X11 stack; i.e. no 
Wayland or Xwayland is involved when using Plasma(X11).  This mode is well supported by 
KiCad, and additionally it works well with my multi-monitor setup.

Should the change proposal be accepted, "Plasma(X11)" will be removed, leaving 
"Plasma(Wayland)" as the only available KDE mode.  Also, all X11 applications will then 
be forced to use XWayland rather than X11, at least under KDE.

Assuming my summary is correct, here are my personal problems:

Problem 1: The KiCad team says they don't support XWayland (nor do they support 
pure Wayland) because of bugs.




From what I've read through the issues, the ultimate problem is in

GTK, not wxWidgets, as there is in fact a supported Wayland protocol
for mouse warping[1]. Does this issue exist when using wxQt instead of
wxGTK? Admittedly, I'm not sure of the state of things with wxWidgets
and the backends...

[1]: https://wayland.app/protocols/pointer-constraints-unstable-v1


Problem 2: Plasma(Wayland) doesn't work with my multi-monitor setup.



Do you have a bug report filed at bugs.kde.org about your setup? The
KDE folks can take a look and we can try to have things fixed in
Plasma (in Plasma 5 today or Plasma 6 when it lands).


Conclusion: If there are remaining Fedora desktops using X11, I might be able 
to continue using Fedora, and I might be able to continue supporting KiCad, 
_assuming_ I'm willing to switch to another desktop.  Of course, after having 
used KDE for 20+ years, switching is not very appealing, nor is it very likely, 
frankly.



Part of the reason for filing this Change is to shake out these cases
and make sure we can get them covered. For what it's worth, I want you
to have a good experience on Plasma Wayland, and I'm happy to help try
to facilitate that however I can.


Thanks, I appreciate that.  I'll give Plasma(Wayland) another try soon and 
write some bugs.

Steve

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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Neal Gompa]

On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 7:02 PM Steven A. Falco  wrote:
>
> On 9/13/23 05:23 PM, Neal Gompa wrote:
> > Right. And I want to stress we are not dropping support for X11
> > applications. Anything running as an X client in a desktop should work
> > as it has before.
>
> I'm not convinced KiCad will work in that scenario, so please let me 
> summarize what I've read here, and please correct me if I have any of this 
> wrong.
>
> The thing being removed is "Plasma(X11)", which is a native X11 stack; i.e. 
> no Wayland or Xwayland is involved when using Plasma(X11).  This mode is well 
> supported by KiCad, and additionally it works well with my multi-monitor 
> setup.
>
> Should the change proposal be accepted, "Plasma(X11)" will be removed, 
> leaving "Plasma(Wayland)" as the only available KDE mode.  Also, all X11 
> applications will then be forced to use XWayland rather than X11, at least 
> under KDE.
>
> Assuming my summary is correct, here are my personal problems:
>
> Problem 1: The KiCad team says they don't support XWayland (nor do they 
> support pure Wayland) because of bugs.
>

From what I've read through the issues, the ultimate problem is in
GTK, not wxWidgets, as there is in fact a supported Wayland protocol
for mouse warping[1]. Does this issue exist when using wxQt instead of
wxGTK? Admittedly, I'm not sure of the state of things with wxWidgets
and the backends...

[1]: https://wayland.app/protocols/pointer-constraints-unstable-v1

> Problem 2: Plasma(Wayland) doesn't work with my multi-monitor setup.
>

Do you have a bug report filed at bugs.kde.org about your setup? The
KDE folks can take a look and we can try to have things fixed in
Plasma (in Plasma 5 today or Plasma 6 when it lands).

> Conclusion: If there are remaining Fedora desktops using X11, I might be able 
> to continue using Fedora, and I might be able to continue supporting KiCad, 
> _assuming_ I'm willing to switch to another desktop.  Of course, after having 
> used KDE for 20+ years, switching is not very appealing, nor is it very 
> likely, frankly.
>

Part of the reason for filing this Change is to shake out these cases
and make sure we can get them covered. For what it's worth, I want you
to have a good experience on Plasma Wayland, and I'm happy to help try
to facilitate that however I can.


-- 
真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Steven A. Falco]

On 9/13/23 05:23 PM, Neal Gompa wrote:

Right. And I want to stress we are not dropping support for X11
applications. Anything running as an X client in a desktop should work
as it has before.


I'm not convinced KiCad will work in that scenario, so please let me summarize 
what I've read here, and please correct me if I have any of this wrong.

The thing being removed is "Plasma(X11)", which is a native X11 stack; i.e. no 
Wayland or Xwayland is involved when using Plasma(X11).  This mode is well supported by 
KiCad, and additionally it works well with my multi-monitor setup.

Should the change proposal be accepted, "Plasma(X11)" will be removed, leaving 
"Plasma(Wayland)" as the only available KDE mode.  Also, all X11 applications will then 
be forced to use XWayland rather than X11, at least under KDE.

Assuming my summary is correct, here are my personal problems:

Problem 1: The KiCad team says they don't support XWayland (nor do they support 
pure Wayland) because of bugs.

Problem 2: Plasma(Wayland) doesn't work with my multi-monitor setup.

Conclusion: If there are remaining Fedora desktops using X11, I might be able 
to continue using Fedora, and I might be able to continue supporting KiCad, 
_assuming_ I'm willing to switch to another desktop.  Of course, after having 
used KDE for 20+ years, switching is not very appealing, nor is it very likely, 
frankly.

Steve

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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Kevin Kofler via devel]

Neal Gompa wrote:
> Right. And I want to stress we are not dropping support for X11
> applications. Anything running as an X client in a desktop should work
> as it has before.

Should. But that does not necessarily mean it actually does.

Kevin Kofler
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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Kevin Kofler via devel]

Fabio Valentini wrote:
> I doubt that the intention is to drop X11 sessions entirely and make
> "Plasma Wayland" the only session available on Fedora *in general*,
> but rather that the "Plasma X11" session will be dropped, and that
> "Plasma Wayland" will be the only *Plasma* session available.

Even that is not going to happen. I do not see how they want to stop me from 
shipping a plasma-x11 package.

Kevin Kofler
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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Neal Gompa]

On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 5:24 PM Fabio Valentini  wrote:
>
> On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 11:19 PM Steven A. Falco  
> wrote:
> >
> > A question about this - the removal of X11 is listed on a change proposal 
> > for KDE.  Does the removal just apply to KDE or would it be distribution 
> > wide; i.e. affecting all desktops?
>
> I assume the following is not meant literally:
>
> """
> For Fedora Linux, the
> transition to KDE Plasma 6 will also include dropping support for the
> X11 session entirely, leaving only Plasma Wayland as the sole offered
> desktop mode.
> """
>
> I doubt that the intention is to drop X11 sessions entirely and make
> "Plasma Wayland" the only session available on Fedora *in general*,
> but rather that the "Plasma X11" session will be dropped, and that
> "Plasma Wayland" will be the only *Plasma* session available.
>

Yes! Sorry if it's ambiguous, it's hard to write this to account for
all the ways it can be interpreted. This is scoped to the KDE Plasma
solution stack.

Other desktops can and will make their own choices on the transition to Wayland.




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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Neal Gompa]

On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 2:46 PM David Edmundson
 wrote:
>
> > will also include dropping support for the X11 session entirely
> > I'm more than a bit concerned about dropping X11
>
> It's important that we separate dropping an X11 session and dropping
> X11 (xwayland). They're two very different topics and you two might be
> talking past each other.
>
> > [xwayland] is an emulation mode and issues arising while using this mode
>
> I would not describe xwayland as an emulation mode. Kwin talks with
> via X11 protocols directly to the client. We certainly aim to support
> it upstream for a long time. If Kicad is best in xwayland, then we
> should run Kicad in xwayland.
>

Right. And I want to stress we are not dropping support for X11
applications. Anything running as an X client in a desktop should work
as it has before.



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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Fabio Valentini]

On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 11:19 PM Steven A. Falco  wrote:
>
> A question about this - the removal of X11 is listed on a change proposal for 
> KDE.  Does the removal just apply to KDE or would it be distribution wide; 
> i.e. affecting all desktops?

I assume the following is not meant literally:

"""
For Fedora Linux, the
transition to KDE Plasma 6 will also include dropping support for the
X11 session entirely, leaving only Plasma Wayland as the sole offered
desktop mode.
"""

I doubt that the intention is to drop X11 sessions entirely and make
"Plasma Wayland" the only session available on Fedora *in general*,
but rather that the "Plasma X11" session will be dropped, and that
"Plasma Wayland" will be the only *Plasma* session available.

Fabio
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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Steven A. Falco]

On 9/13/23 12:10 PM, Steven A. Falco wrote:

On 9/13/23 11:53 AM, Aoife Moloney wrote:

Wiki  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/KDE_Plasma_6



== Summary ==
KDE Plasma 6 is successor to KDE Plasma 5 created by the KDE
Community. It is based on Qt 6 and KDE Frameworks 6 and brings many
changes and improvements over previous versions. For Fedora Linux, the
transition to KDE Plasma 6 will also include dropping support for the
X11 session entirely, leaving only Plasma Wayland as the sole offered
desktop mode.


I'm more than a bit concerned about dropping X11.  I am the packager for KiCad 
on Fedora.  The upstream KiCad team has stated [1] that they won't support 
Wayland issues unless they can be recreated on X11, meaning that I'll be left 
with no way to support the Fedora KiCad packages.

For convenience, here is the relevant part of the KiCad position:

  It is known that KiCad does not work well under Wayland. There are a 
number of known issues with wxWidgets and Wayland. See the wxWidgets bug 
tracker for details [2].  KiCad requests the XWayland compatibility layer when 
starting, however this is an emulation mode and issues arising while using this 
mode need to be recreated under X11 before they will be addressed.  At the 
moment, Wayland has no support for cursor warping, which means that the KiCad 
features of centering the cursor when zooming, and continuously panning the 
canvas, are broken on Wayland systems.

 Steve

[1] https://www.kicad.org/help/known-system-related-issues/
[2] https://github.com/wxWidgets/wxWidgets/labels/Wayland


A question about this - the removal of X11 is listed on a change proposal for 
KDE.  Does the removal just apply to KDE or would it be distribution wide; i.e. 
affecting all desktops?

Steve

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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[František Šumšal]

On 9/13/23 21:50, Sérgio Basto wrote:

On Wed, 2023-09-13 at 19:52 +0200, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:

For Fedora Linux, the transition to KDE Plasma 6 will also include
dropping support for the X11 session entirely, leaving only Plasma
Wayland
as the sole offered desktop mode.


Huh?! Why?! KDE upstream is still supporting X11 in Plasma 6. I see
no
reason to force Wayland upon all users. I do not want Wayland on my
desktop
(it is already enough of a pain that it is forced upon us by Plasma
Mobile
on the PinePhone) and I will have to switch to another distribution
and
orphan all my packages if this happens.



+1 , I still not use wayland , it just crash all the time , smplayer
and I think many other apps simple doesn't work with wayland. other
packages we cann see Exec=env QT_QPA_PLATFORM=xcb /usr/bin/foo [1].
Also packages based on vnc , libvnc, x11vnc I think doesn't support
wayland, xpra also I think that still doesn't work with wayland. I
don't see why we want move to wayland if X11 works very well .


I second this as well. I tried to use Wayland with Plasma, but there's
a weird issue where with a multi-monitor setup, switching focus from
a window on the first monitor to a running Firefox on the second one
would cause random clicks in Firefox that would switch tabs/click on
links on the current page, which was driving me insane. Unfortunately,
I still haven't got around to properly debug that and use X11 instead.
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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Sérgio Basto]

On Wed, 2023-09-13 at 19:52 +0200, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:
> > For Fedora Linux, the transition to KDE Plasma 6 will also include
> > dropping support for the X11 session entirely, leaving only Plasma
> > Wayland
> > as the sole offered desktop mode.
> 
> Huh?! Why?! KDE upstream is still supporting X11 in Plasma 6. I see
> no 
> reason to force Wayland upon all users. I do not want Wayland on my
> desktop 
> (it is already enough of a pain that it is forced upon us by Plasma
> Mobile 
> on the PinePhone) and I will have to switch to another distribution
> and 
> orphan all my packages if this happens.
> 

+1 , I still not use wayland , it just crash all the time , smplayer
and I think many other apps simple doesn't work with wayland. other
packages we cann see Exec=env QT_QPA_PLATFORM=xcb /usr/bin/foo [1].
Also packages based on vnc , libvnc, x11vnc I think doesn't support
wayland, xpra also I think that still doesn't work with wayland. I
don't see why we want move to wayland if X11 works very well .  


[1]
https://pkgs.rpmfusion.org/cgit/free/ppsspp.git/tree/ppsspp-qt.desktop


>     Kevin Kofler
> 
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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Kevin Kofler via devel]

Kevin Kofler via devel wrote:

>> For Fedora Linux, the transition to KDE Plasma 6 will also include
>> dropping support for the X11 session entirely, leaving only Plasma
>> Wayland as the sole offered desktop mode.
> 
> Huh?! Why?! KDE upstream is still supporting X11 in Plasma 6. I see no
> reason to force Wayland upon all users. I do not want Wayland on my
> desktop (it is already enough of a pain that it is forced upon us by
> Plasma Mobile on the PinePhone) and I will have to switch to another
> distribution and orphan all my packages if this happens.

PS: I would also like to know how the KDE SIG wants to prevent me or other 
interested people from shipping kwin-x11, plasma-x11 or similar packages, 
and how such a dictate would be compatible with the Fedora "Features" and 
"Friends" goals.

Kevin Kofler
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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Kevin Kofler via devel]

> For Fedora Linux, the transition to KDE Plasma 6 will also include
> dropping support for the X11 session entirely, leaving only Plasma Wayland
> as the sole offered desktop mode.

Huh?! Why?! KDE upstream is still supporting X11 in Plasma 6. I see no 
reason to force Wayland upon all users. I do not want Wayland on my desktop 
(it is already enough of a pain that it is forced upon us by Plasma Mobile 
on the PinePhone) and I will have to switch to another distribution and 
orphan all my packages if this happens.

Kevin Kofler

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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Neal Gompa]

On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 12:12 PM Steven A. Falco  wrote:
>
> On 9/13/23 11:53 AM, Aoife Moloney wrote:
> > Wiki  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/KDE_Plasma_6
>
> > == Summary ==
> > KDE Plasma 6 is successor to KDE Plasma 5 created by the KDE
> > Community. It is based on Qt 6 and KDE Frameworks 6 and brings many
> > changes and improvements over previous versions. For Fedora Linux, the
> > transition to KDE Plasma 6 will also include dropping support for the
> > X11 session entirely, leaving only Plasma Wayland as the sole offered
> > desktop mode.
>
> I'm more than a bit concerned about dropping X11.  I am the packager for 
> KiCad on Fedora.  The upstream KiCad team has stated [1] that they won't 
> support Wayland issues unless they can be recreated on X11, meaning that I'll 
> be left with no way to support the Fedora KiCad packages.
>
> For convenience, here is the relevant part of the KiCad position:
>
>   It is known that KiCad does not work well under Wayland. There are a 
> number of known issues with wxWidgets and Wayland. See the wxWidgets bug 
> tracker for details [2].  KiCad requests the XWayland compatibility layer 
> when starting, however this is an emulation mode and issues arising while 
> using this mode need to be recreated under X11 before they will be addressed. 
>  At the moment, Wayland has no support for cursor warping, which means that 
> the KiCad features of centering the cursor when zooming, and continuously 
> panning the canvas, are broken on Wayland systems.
>

It looks like the cursor warping is supported in all major compositors
with the cursor-constraints protocol:
https://wayland.app/protocols/pointer-constraints-unstable-v1

Beyond that, I think it's probably a good idea to get a bug filed with
KDE upstream to get this tracked and figured out with the wxWidgets
folks. Of all the folks involved in the Wayland protocols development,
they are by far the easiest to work with.

There's also a Matrix room about KDE Wayland stuff if you would like
to talk to developers directly about these things:
https://matrix.to/#/#kde-wayland-goal:kde.org




--
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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Steven A. Falco]

On 9/13/23 11:53 AM, Aoife Moloney wrote:

Wiki  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/KDE_Plasma_6



== Summary ==
KDE Plasma 6 is successor to KDE Plasma 5 created by the KDE
Community. It is based on Qt 6 and KDE Frameworks 6 and brings many
changes and improvements over previous versions. For Fedora Linux, the
transition to KDE Plasma 6 will also include dropping support for the
X11 session entirely, leaving only Plasma Wayland as the sole offered
desktop mode.


I'm more than a bit concerned about dropping X11.  I am the packager for KiCad 
on Fedora.  The upstream KiCad team has stated [1] that they won't support 
Wayland issues unless they can be recreated on X11, meaning that I'll be left 
with no way to support the Fedora KiCad packages.

For convenience, here is the relevant part of the KiCad position:

 It is known that KiCad does not work well under Wayland. There are a 
number of known issues with wxWidgets and Wayland. See the wxWidgets bug 
tracker for details [2].  KiCad requests the XWayland compatibility layer when 
starting, however this is an emulation mode and issues arising while using this 
mode need to be recreated under X11 before they will be addressed.  At the 
moment, Wayland has no support for cursor warping, which means that the KiCad 
features of centering the cursor when zooming, and continuously panning the 
canvas, are broken on Wayland systems.

Steve

[1] https://www.kicad.org/help/known-system-related-issues/
[2] https://github.com/wxWidgets/wxWidgets/labels/Wayland
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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Aoife Moloney]

The discussion thread to provide feedback for this change proposal can be found 
here 
https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/f40-change-proposal-kde-plasma-6-system-wide/89794/1
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Re: F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Aoife Moloney]

The discussion thread to provide feedback for this change proposal can be found 
here 
https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/f40-change-proposal-kde-plasma-6-system-wide/89794/1
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F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Aoife Moloney]

Wiki  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/KDE_Plasma_6

This is a proposed Change for Fedora Linux.
This document represents a proposed Change. As part of the Changes
process, proposals are publicly announced in order to receive
community feedback. This proposal will only be implemented if approved
by the Fedora Engineering Steering Committee.



== Summary ==
KDE Plasma 6 is successor to KDE Plasma 5 created by the KDE
Community. It is based on Qt 6 and KDE Frameworks 6 and brings many
changes and improvements over previous versions. For Fedora Linux, the
transition to KDE Plasma 6 will also include dropping support for the
X11 session entirely, leaving only Plasma Wayland as the sole offered
desktop mode.

== Owner ==
* Name: [[User:Ngompa|Neal Gompa]], [[User:Marcdeop|Marc Deop]],
[[User:Justinz|Justin Zobel]], [[User:Siosm|Timothy Ravier]],
[[User:Tdawson|Troy Dawson]], [[User:Jgrulich|Jan Grulich]]
* Email: ngomp...@gmail.com, marcd...@fedoraproject.org,
justin.zo...@gmail.com, trav...@redhat.com, tdaw...@redhat.com,
jgrul...@redhat.com


== Detailed Description ==
KDE Plasma 6 is a new major version of the user experience environment
from the KDE community. It includes both desktop and mobile
environments. While there are some user experience improvements over
KDE Plasma 5, the majority of the work is under the hood. Notably, the
whole stack is now built on Qt 6. Qt 6 brings significant upgrades to
QML and Qt Quick as well as support for Vulkan (in addition to OpenGL
and OpenGL ES support introduced in Qt 5).

[https://pointieststick.com/2023/09/06/september-plasma-6-update/ KDE
Plasma 6.0 is expected to release in early February 2024]. The
frameworks (KDE Frameworks), shells (Plasma Desktop and Plasma
Mobile), and applications (KDE Gear)
[https://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kde-devel/2023-September/002008.html
are all expected to be ported to Qt 6 as part of the KDE Plasma 6
release]. However, some applications may not make it in time and will
be updated later.

This upgrade is also notable that for Fedora Linux (and Fedora Extra
Packages for Enterprise Linux 10, once that materializes), KDE Plasma
will '''not''' offer an X11 session. Fedora KDE has been fully Wayland
by default from login ([[Changes/WaylandByDefaultForSDDM|since Fedora
Linux 38]]) to desktop ([[Changes/WaylandByDefaultForPlasma|since
Fedora Linux 34]]), and the SIG is confident in the quality and
development around the Plasma Wayland experience to stand fully behind
it.

== Feedback ==

 Why drop the X11 session? 

Three reasons for this removal:

* 
[https://access.redhat.com/documentation/en-us/red_hat_enterprise_linux/9/html/9.0_release_notes/deprecated_functionality#JIRA-RHELPLAN-121048
The Xorg server is deprecated since RHEL 9.0] and will be dropped in
"a future major RHEL release".
* Graphics fallback modes are Wayland-friendly now with
[[Changes/ReplaceFbdevDrivers|SimpleDRM enabled since Fedora Linux
36]].
* NVIDIA drivers (since v495~v515) support GBM for Wayland instead of
EGLStreams. Wayland is fully supported on current NVIDIA drivers.

This will drastically reduce our support burden and give us the
ability to focus on quality for the KDE Plasma stack and continue our
feature-forward nature. The Fedora KDE SIG will maintain a single code
stream for all supported distribution targets (Fedora Linux 40+,
Fedora Extra Packages for Enterprise Linux 10+).

This also does not mean that X11 applications will not work in Plasma
6, as we will still support Xwayland for running X11 applications on
Plasma Wayland.

 Could we keep Plasma 5 for X11? 

No. The KDE Plasma stack is fairly large and comprehensive. The SIG
does not have the resources to maintain the KDE Plasma 5 stack beyond
the lifetime of upstream's focus. It would also be fairly complex to
do so, requiring a lot of downstream patching to resolve the conflicts
between Plasma 5 and Plasma 6. The intent upstream is that KDE Plasma
5 will be EOL shortly after the release of KDE Plasma 6, so it would
be very difficult to support ourselves.

 Will Plasma 6 be available for older Fedora and EPEL releases? 

No. This major version upgrade is not getting backported. Some
portions (KDE Frameworks and KDE Gear) may get backported as part of
regular upgrades if Qt 5-based versions are not maintained upstream,
but the Plasma Desktop and Plasma Mobile software will not. Notably,
KDE Plasma 5 for older Fedora Linux releases (and Fedora Extra
Packages for Enterprise Linux 9) are on Plasma 5.27 and will stay
there.

== Benefit to Fedora ==
KDE Plasma is a very popular platform used as the basis for the Fedora
KDE Spin, Fedora Kinoite, and the flagship Fedora Asahi Remix
experiences. By bringing KDE Plasma 6 into Fedora, we demonstrate our
leadership and commitment to bring the latest and greatest
technologies from the KDE community to the world.

== Scope ==
* Proposal owners:
** Import Plasma 6 stack into F40/Rawhide (tracked as

F40 Change Proposal: KDE Plasma 6 (System Wide)

[Aoife Moloney]

Wiki  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/KDE_Plasma_6

This is a proposed Change for Fedora Linux.
This document represents a proposed Change. As part of the Changes
process, proposals are publicly announced in order to receive
community feedback. This proposal will only be implemented if approved
by the Fedora Engineering Steering Committee.



== Summary ==
KDE Plasma 6 is successor to KDE Plasma 5 created by the KDE
Community. It is based on Qt 6 and KDE Frameworks 6 and brings many
changes and improvements over previous versions. For Fedora Linux, the
transition to KDE Plasma 6 will also include dropping support for the
X11 session entirely, leaving only Plasma Wayland as the sole offered
desktop mode.

== Owner ==
* Name: [[User:Ngompa|Neal Gompa]], [[User:Marcdeop|Marc Deop]],
[[User:Justinz|Justin Zobel]], [[User:Siosm|Timothy Ravier]],
[[User:Tdawson|Troy Dawson]], [[User:Jgrulich|Jan Grulich]]
* Email: ngomp...@gmail.com, marcd...@fedoraproject.org,
justin.zo...@gmail.com, trav...@redhat.com, tdaw...@redhat.com,
jgrul...@redhat.com


== Detailed Description ==
KDE Plasma 6 is a new major version of the user experience environment
from the KDE community. It includes both desktop and mobile
environments. While there are some user experience improvements over
KDE Plasma 5, the majority of the work is under the hood. Notably, the
whole stack is now built on Qt 6. Qt 6 brings significant upgrades to
QML and Qt Quick as well as support for Vulkan (in addition to OpenGL
and OpenGL ES support introduced in Qt 5).

[https://pointieststick.com/2023/09/06/september-plasma-6-update/ KDE
Plasma 6.0 is expected to release in early February 2024]. The
frameworks (KDE Frameworks), shells (Plasma Desktop and Plasma
Mobile), and applications (KDE Gear)
[https://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kde-devel/2023-September/002008.html
are all expected to be ported to Qt 6 as part of the KDE Plasma 6
release]. However, some applications may not make it in time and will
be updated later.

This upgrade is also notable that for Fedora Linux (and Fedora Extra
Packages for Enterprise Linux 10, once that materializes), KDE Plasma
will '''not''' offer an X11 session. Fedora KDE has been fully Wayland
by default from login ([[Changes/WaylandByDefaultForSDDM|since Fedora
Linux 38]]) to desktop ([[Changes/WaylandByDefaultForPlasma|since
Fedora Linux 34]]), and the SIG is confident in the quality and
development around the Plasma Wayland experience to stand fully behind
it.

== Feedback ==

 Why drop the X11 session? 

Three reasons for this removal:

* 
[https://access.redhat.com/documentation/en-us/red_hat_enterprise_linux/9/html/9.0_release_notes/deprecated_functionality#JIRA-RHELPLAN-121048
The Xorg server is deprecated since RHEL 9.0] and will be dropped in
"a future major RHEL release".
* Graphics fallback modes are Wayland-friendly now with
[[Changes/ReplaceFbdevDrivers|SimpleDRM enabled since Fedora Linux
36]].
* NVIDIA drivers (since v495~v515) support GBM for Wayland instead of
EGLStreams. Wayland is fully supported on current NVIDIA drivers.

This will drastically reduce our support burden and give us the
ability to focus on quality for the KDE Plasma stack and continue our
feature-forward nature. The Fedora KDE SIG will maintain a single code
stream for all supported distribution targets (Fedora Linux 40+,
Fedora Extra Packages for Enterprise Linux 10+).

This also does not mean that X11 applications will not work in Plasma
6, as we will still support Xwayland for running X11 applications on
Plasma Wayland.

 Could we keep Plasma 5 for X11? 

No. The KDE Plasma stack is fairly large and comprehensive. The SIG
does not have the resources to maintain the KDE Plasma 5 stack beyond
the lifetime of upstream's focus. It would also be fairly complex to
do so, requiring a lot of downstream patching to resolve the conflicts
between Plasma 5 and Plasma 6. The intent upstream is that KDE Plasma
5 will be EOL shortly after the release of KDE Plasma 6, so it would
be very difficult to support ourselves.

 Will Plasma 6 be available for older Fedora and EPEL releases? 

No. This major version upgrade is not getting backported. Some
portions (KDE Frameworks and KDE Gear) may get backported as part of
regular upgrades if Qt 5-based versions are not maintained upstream,
but the Plasma Desktop and Plasma Mobile software will not. Notably,
KDE Plasma 5 for older Fedora Linux releases (and Fedora Extra
Packages for Enterprise Linux 9) are on Plasma 5.27 and will stay
there.

== Benefit to Fedora ==
KDE Plasma is a very popular platform used as the basis for the Fedora
KDE Spin, Fedora Kinoite, and the flagship Fedora Asahi Remix
experiences. By bringing KDE Plasma 6 into Fedora, we demonstrate our
leadership and commitment to bring the latest and greatest
technologies from the KDE community to the world.

== Scope ==
* Proposal owners:
** Import Plasma 6 stack into F40/Rawhide (tracked as