Re: IRC Announcement
Will projects switch hosting? https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Fosshost-Freenode ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Re: IRC Announcement
Il 01/06/21 21:57, Eike Rathke ha scritto: > Hi Kamil, > > On Tuesday, 2021-06-01 10:38:40 +0200, Kamil Paral wrote: > >> I'd still prefer if I didn't have to register an IRC nick and didn't need >> to communicate with Appservice and NickServ (I just wish to forget about >> IRC completely), hopefully that will be possible in the future. > Doubtful. You can not expect to not register a nick on IRC and at the > same time to use that nick. You can however join IRC without registering > a nick, but your mxname[m] nick will be changed to Guest after 30 > seconds not having identified with NickServ. Well, if channels don't > require a registered nick that is.. and you can't do a PM chat without > having a registered nick. > > On the other hand, registering a nick and doing !username and !storepass > with appservice is a one time action and then just forget. > >Eike > Well, my problem is that my fas name `mattia` (not a great fantasy here) is already registered to some other user on IRC (both freenode and libera), so I have to use something else in Fedora channels. This is the reason I'm eagarly awaiting for swiching to Matrix and use my fas authentication. Mattia ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Re: IRC Announcement
Hi Kamil, On Tuesday, 2021-06-01 10:38:40 +0200, Kamil Paral wrote: > I'd still prefer if I didn't have to register an IRC nick and didn't need > to communicate with Appservice and NickServ (I just wish to forget about > IRC completely), hopefully that will be possible in the future. Doubtful. You can not expect to not register a nick on IRC and at the same time to use that nick. You can however join IRC without registering a nick, but your mxname[m] nick will be changed to Guest after 30 seconds not having identified with NickServ. Well, if channels don't require a registered nick that is.. and you can't do a PM chat without having a registered nick. On the other hand, registering a nick and doing !username and !storepass with appservice is a one time action and then just forget. Eike -- GPG key 0x6A6CD5B765632D3A - 2265 D7F3 A7B0 95CC 3918 630B 6A6C D5B7 6563 2D3A signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Re: IRC Announcement
On Tue, 2021-06-01 at 06:26 -0400, Frank Ch. Eigler wrote: > Adam Williamson writes: > > > [...] > > But some other channels that are not Fedora channels, but which a lot > > of Fedora people are interested in, decided to move, or at least to > > tell people that they also had a channel on the new network. Then > > Freenode peremptorily took over those channels for posting links to the > > new channel. > > In the cases where the projects announced their outright move to a new > server, it stands to reason that keeping an "official" (#name) channel > is no longer appropriate at the old network. The response of cleaning > up after a no-longer-official channel cannot logically be used to > justify moving the channel in the first place - this is the circular > reasoning I was referring to. The response to channel B moving or just referring to a new channel for B on a different server, however, can inform channel A's decision to move. Which is what I said. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA IRC: adamw | Twitter: adamw_ha https://www.happyassassin.net ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Re: IRC Announcement
Adam Williamson writes: > [...] > But some other channels that are not Fedora channels, but which a lot > of Fedora people are interested in, decided to move, or at least to > tell people that they also had a channel on the new network. Then > Freenode peremptorily took over those channels for posting links to the > new channel. In the cases where the projects announced their outright move to a new server, it stands to reason that keeping an "official" (#name) channel is no longer appropriate at the old network. The response of cleaning up after a no-longer-official channel cannot logically be used to justify moving the channel in the first place - this is the circular reasoning I was referring to. - FChE ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Re: IRC Announcement
On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 6:55 PM Fabio Valentini
wrote:
> > If I intend to use Matrix exclusively, do I still need to register on
> libera.chat, in order to participate in Fedora rooms?
>
> I think if you want to show up on the IRC side with your expected IRC
> nick (for example, for IRC meetings, for zodbot to recognise you, and
> for IRC rooms that are set up to only allow registered users), then
> you will need to register on libera.chat and then set up that account
> with "@appservice:libera.chat" ("!username foo", "!storepass bar",
> "!nick baz" should do the trick, and allow you to authenticate over
> SASL - at least that worked for me).
>
This helped a lot, thanks.
I'd still prefer if I didn't have to register an IRC nick and didn't need
to communicate with Appservice and NickServ (I just wish to forget about
IRC completely), hopefully that will be possible in the future.
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Re: IRC Announcement
On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 10:44 PM Fabio Valentini wrote: > > Maybe it helps in Element Web, Settings, Preferences, to deactivate > > "Show join/leave messages (invites/kicks/bans unaffected)" > > Thanks for the suggestion, but I already had that setting turned off for > months. > > Weirdly enough, turning it *back on* seems to make performance of the > #fedora-devel room more bearable. It's still very very bad - > considering this is running on a recent top-of-the-line 8-core CPU > from 2021 ... the join/leave messages add a lot of noise, but at least > opening #fedora-devel doesn't make Firefox freeze for half a minute 😅 > Thanks! It adds a lot of visual noise, but the rooms can finally be used now. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Re: IRC Announcement
On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 10:22 PM Eike Rathke wrote: > > Hi Fabio, > > On Monday, 2021-05-31 18:53:35 +0200, Fabio Valentini wrote: > > > > Has someone also encountered severe performance issues in certain rooms > > > in Element (a room taking minutes of full CPU usage to load)? I saw it in > > > the past rarely as well, but in the last few days I encountered it in at > > > least half the rooms I was connected to. > > > > Yes, I think that's a known issue for "plumbed" rooms like "Fedora > > Devel" / #fedora-devel, where there's a lot of Join / Leave messages > > from the IRC side. Those rooms are quite unusable in the element web > > client, and if I need to look at them, I open them in the element > > Android app (which does not seem to have this performance problem), > > and other Matrix clients (like Fractal) also don't seem to have that > > particular issue. > > Maybe it helps in Element Web, Settings, Preferences, to deactivate > "Show join/leave messages (invites/kicks/bans unaffected)" Thanks for the suggestion, but I already had that setting turned off for months. Weirdly enough, turning it *back on* seems to make performance of the #fedora-devel room more bearable. It's still very very bad - considering this is running on a recent top-of-the-line 8-core CPU from 2021 ... the join/leave messages add a lot of noise, but at least opening #fedora-devel doesn't make Firefox freeze for half a minute 😅 Fabio ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Re: IRC Announcement
Hi Fabio, On Monday, 2021-05-31 18:53:35 +0200, Fabio Valentini wrote: > > Has someone also encountered severe performance issues in certain rooms in > > Element (a room taking minutes of full CPU usage to load)? I saw it in the > > past rarely as well, but in the last few days I encountered it in at least > > half the rooms I was connected to. > > Yes, I think that's a known issue for "plumbed" rooms like "Fedora > Devel" / #fedora-devel, where there's a lot of Join / Leave messages > from the IRC side. Those rooms are quite unusable in the element web > client, and if I need to look at them, I open them in the element > Android app (which does not seem to have this performance problem), > and other Matrix clients (like Fractal) also don't seem to have that > particular issue. Maybe it helps in Element Web, Settings, Preferences, to deactivate "Show join/leave messages (invites/kicks/bans unaffected)" Eike -- GPG key 0x6A6CD5B765632D3A - 2265 D7F3 A7B0 95CC 3918 630B 6A6C D5B7 6563 2D3A signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Re: IRC Announcement
On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 10:50:15AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > > This is I think because it's all still very much 'under development'. I > don't think it makes much sense for folks to spend time writing lists > that are likely to rapidly become outdated, rather than continuing to > work on setting things up the way we actually want them to be. Yep. Completely agreed. The last status of the matrix/libera bridges on friday (at least that I saw) was "Bridge is up and available for testing, be aware that it may be a bit wobbly while we work on issues" and the person doing the work on it said they would be back wed to start fixing more issues. I'll mention here that there's two ways to bridge things (at least per my understanding): 1. There's a site wide bridge allowing matrix users to join #channel:libera.chat But they have to know to do that. 2. There's "plumbed rooms" where a bridge is setup from a specific irc room to a specific matrix room. In this case matrix users just join "Fedora Development" or whatever and irc users just join #fedora-devel and everything is bridged. This is the state we want, with all or almost all our rooms. Even how those work is kind of in flux. There's problems when say irc channels quiet all non identified users (mode "$~a"). In some cases we auto 'voice' matrix users so they can avoid the identification requirement (I personally don't like this). They may come up with other ways to do things over the coming weeks. For both of them you can open a conversation with @appservice:libera.chat and use commands to manage the irc side of matrix connections. Send '!help' to get a list of commands. Finally, all this is subject to change, because the Fedora project hopefully really soon now is getting our own matrix home server. In this new server people would login with their account system info and get a @user:fedora.im (or fedoraproject.org) account. Additionally, matrix has been working on a thing called "spaces" which we will likely use. This makes matrix more 'discord like' in that you could join "Fedora Project" or whatever, get joined to specific rooms and have all the rooms setup under a Fedora Project umbrealla. ie, There would no longer be a "Fedora Devel"@matrix.org room but a "Devel" space under fedoraproject on our homeserver. The intention as I know it currently is to still plumb rooms into irc like option 2 above once we have spaces/homeserver setup. So, yeah, sadly everything is kind of in flux right now. :( I wish all this IRC mess didn't happen, but sadly it did. kevin signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Re: IRC Announcement
On Mon, 2021-05-31 at 18:53 +0200, Fabio Valentini wrote: > On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 5:02 PM Kamil Paral wrote: > > > > (snip) > > > > > Is there some official list of invite-style links to Fedora > > channels for Matrix users? Can be work-in-progress, but at least > > something. As a relatively new Matrix user, I have to say I'm > > utterly confused at the moment. I don't know how to distinguish a > > native Matrix room from a "portal room". I don't know how to > > distinguish whether a room is bridged or not, and where to. So > > basically I don't know whether to stay in the current rooms or > > leave, and how to find the "right rooms" which I should join. > > Yeah, it would be great to have an official list. It's also different > with libera compared to how it was set up for freenode, further > complicating things ... > When the bridge was set up for freenode, it was as easy as sending > "!join #fedora-foo" to appservice-irc and it would invite you to the > "correct" plumbed room, though on the IRC side. With Libera, that > doesn't seem to work right (yet?). This is I think because it's all still very much 'under development'. I don't think it makes much sense for folks to spend time writing lists that are likely to rapidly become outdated, rather than continuing to work on setting things up the way we actually want them to be. Matrix and Libera are still working on the bridging stuff, it's not completely 'done' yet, even though it works to some extent. And Fedora admins are still working on setting up bespoke bridges for the cases where we have a 'native' Matrix room. I'd expect that once all that work is actually done and we have a stable state to document, it can get documented. BTW, using "!join" did work for me for the one room I tried it for, though there was a long delay between issuing the command and getting the invite. I think it's intended to work and if it doesn't it's just because, again, they're still setting things up here. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA IRC: adamw | Twitter: adamw_ha https://www.happyassassin.net ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Re: IRC Announcement
On Sun, 2021-05-30 at 13:02 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Frank Ch. Eigler writes: > Â > adamwill wrote: > > Â > > Freenode has also shut down every channel that posted a libera.chat > Â > > link in its topic. That's not very 'trustworthy'. This happened to > Â > > multiple Fedora-related projects/channels, including #cockpit , for > Â > > instance. > Â > > Â > Those organizations have announced their departure. Surely freenode's > Â > RESPONSE to that departure cannot be used as the REASON for the > Â > departure. That'd be circular reasoning and a self-fulfilling prophecy. > > The *reason* for leaving is that channel organizers trust the Freenode > volunteer staff to be reasonably accurate in discussing organizational > politics, and don't trust the new management to behave ethically or do > a good job of managing the service. Channels acted in *expectation* > of nasty behavior by the new management, based on how they acted > toward the staff during the takeover (as reported by the staff), and > perhaps based on Andrew Lee's past unsavory behavior and associations > -- I mean, hiring Mark Karpeles of "Mt. Gox" infamy as CTO is a sign > of crony capitalism, not good intentions or competence! > > The *response* of the management during and after the exodus is > advanced as confirmation of that mistrust; it's elliptical in the > sense of omitting discussion of the difference between expectation and > reality, but it's not circular. That's a good line, but not the one I was thinking of :P Fedora was initially inclined to take a cautious/conservative position, probably owning its channels on both networks and perhaps leaving the 'official' location for meetings and so on on Freenode. But some other channels that are not Fedora channels, but which a lot of Fedora people are interested in, decided to move, or at least to tell people that they also had a channel on the new network. Then Freenode peremptorily took over those channels for posting links to the new channel. Fedora people seeing that happen was, I think, a fairly large factor in causing us to rethink the cautious approach and choose to just straight up move networks instead. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA IRC: adamw | Twitter: adamw_ha https://www.happyassassin.net ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Re: IRC Announcement
On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 5:02 PM Kamil Paral wrote:
>
(snip)
>
> Is there some official list of invite-style links to Fedora channels for
> Matrix users? Can be work-in-progress, but at least something. As a
> relatively new Matrix user, I have to say I'm utterly confused at the moment.
> I don't know how to distinguish a native Matrix room from a "portal room". I
> don't know how to distinguish whether a room is bridged or not, and where to.
> So basically I don't know whether to stay in the current rooms or leave, and
> how to find the "right rooms" which I should join.
Yeah, it would be great to have an official list. It's also different
with libera compared to how it was set up for freenode, further
complicating things ...
When the bridge was set up for freenode, it was as easy as sending
"!join #fedora-foo" to appservice-irc and it would invite you to the
"correct" plumbed room, though on the IRC side. With Libera, that
doesn't seem to work right (yet?).
What I tried was to look at the "Fedora" space, choose the equivalent
Matrix room to the IRC room I want, and join it. Then sending
"!listrooms" to "@appservice:libera.chat" will tell you whether it is
a bridged / plumbed room or not, and which rooms are linked to it.
> If I intend to use Matrix exclusively, do I still need to register on
> libera.chat, in order to participate in Fedora rooms?
I think if you want to show up on the IRC side with your expected IRC
nick (for example, for IRC meetings, for zodbot to recognise you, and
for IRC rooms that are set up to only allow registered users), then
you will need to register on libera.chat and then set up that account
with "@appservice:libera.chat" ("!username foo", "!storepass bar",
"!nick baz" should do the trick, and allow you to authenticate over
SASL - at least that worked for me).
> Has someone also encountered severe performance issues in certain rooms in
> Element (a room taking minutes of full CPU usage to load)? I saw it in the
> past rarely as well, but in the last few days I encountered it in at least
> half the rooms I was connected to.
Yes, I think that's a known issue for "plumbed" rooms like "Fedora
Devel" / #fedora-devel, where there's a lot of Join / Leave messages
from the IRC side. Those rooms are quite unusable in the element web
client, and if I need to look at them, I open them in the element
Android app (which does not seem to have this performance problem),
and other Matrix clients (like Fractal) also don't seem to have that
particular issue.
Fabio
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Re: IRC Announcement
On Thu, May 27, 2021 at 8:11 PM Nick Bebout wrote: > If you are a Matrix user, we ask for your patience as we get bridges setup > on the new network. If you were joined to rooms via the generic freenode > bridge, you will need to leave them and rejoin the fedora rooms in matrix > (which will be plumbed with the Libera channels) > Is there some official list of invite-style links to Fedora channels for Matrix users? Can be work-in-progress, but at least something. As a relatively new Matrix user, I have to say I'm utterly confused at the moment. I don't know how to distinguish a native Matrix room from a "portal room". I don't know how to distinguish whether a room is bridged or not, and where to. So basically I don't know whether to stay in the current rooms or leave, and how to find the "right rooms" which I should join. If I intend to use Matrix exclusively, do I still need to register on libera.chat, in order to participate in Fedora rooms? Has someone also encountered severe performance issues in certain rooms in Element (a room taking minutes of full CPU usage to load)? I saw it in the past rarely as well, but in the last few days I encountered it in at least half the rooms I was connected to. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Re: IRC Announcement
Frank Ch. Eigler writes: > adamwill wrote: > > Freenode has also shut down every channel that posted a libera.chat > > link in its topic. That's not very 'trustworthy'. This happened to > > multiple Fedora-related projects/channels, including #cockpit , for > > instance. > > Those organizations have announced their departure. Surely freenode's > RESPONSE to that departure cannot be used as the REASON for the > departure. That'd be circular reasoning and a self-fulfilling prophecy. The *reason* for leaving is that channel organizers trust the Freenode volunteer staff to be reasonably accurate in discussing organizational politics, and don't trust the new management to behave ethically or do a good job of managing the service. Channels acted in *expectation* of nasty behavior by the new management, based on how they acted toward the staff during the takeover (as reported by the staff), and perhaps based on Andrew Lee's past unsavory behavior and associations -- I mean, hiring Mark Karpeles of "Mt. Gox" infamy as CTO is a sign of crony capitalism, not good intentions or competence! The *response* of the management during and after the exodus is advanced as confirmation of that mistrust; it's elliptical in the sense of omitting discussion of the difference between expectation and reality, but it's not circular. Steve -- All puns intended. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Re: IRC Announcement
adamwill wrote: > Freenode has also shut down every channel that posted a libera.chat > link in its topic. That's not very 'trustworthy'. This happened to > multiple Fedora-related projects/channels, including #cockpit , for > instance. Those organizations have announced their departure. Surely freenode's RESPONSE to that departure cannot be used as the REASON for the departure. That'd be circular reasoning and a self-fulfilling prophecy. - FChE ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Re: IRC Announcement
one of the more important trusts we place in the parties in question is to protect the privacy of tens of thousands of *other* people's private conversations. Sure. As do we all. Mostly. Kind of. Ok, hopefully. Again, to _my_ read, _I_ see absolutely nothing in either side's recent behavior that builds _my_ trust. And sufficient cause for it to be called into some question. By _me_. If privacy of _credentials_ are in question, again, there's nothing but assumptions here. Unless/until _I_ see provable behavior, contractual accountability, and auditable infrastructure, _I_ remain ... diligent. If privacy of _discussions_ are in question, then #IRC isn't the right platform to start with. At all. And arguing about who's more trustworthy in managing privacy in an infra with the general leak-proofing of a pasta colander, is simply circular-debate about the color of the lipstick on the pig. Paraphrasing the old adage -- takes a lifetime to build a rep, 5 seconds to lose one. BOTH sides have lost trust & rep. In the end, I'm not convinced it was worth the "pantscon 1" (chuckle) hullabaloo, and wait to see if more harm than good comes of it. So thought I'd add/share a doc or 2 to read. /me is really shutting up now. About this, anyway. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Re: IRC Announcement
On Fri, May 28, 2021 at 4:42 PM PGNet Dev wrote: > I'd bet $0.05 and a half-eaten donut that most folks *Most* folks are not the deciders. The deciders (for their particular projects) have decided, presumably based on what they believe is best for their community. In this case, for Fedora, that is libera (and matrix integration). One will likely never understand the complete motivations for various actions, but it is clear there were a number of unforced errors that resulted in the need to "revise and extend" remarks, and issue multiple clarifications (you really only get one chance to make things right). ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Re: IRC Announcement
On Fri, 2021-05-28 at 12:26 -0400, PGNet Dev wrote: > On 5/28/21 12:14 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: > > On Fri, 2021-05-28 at 12:01 -0400, PGNet Dev wrote: > > > On 5/27/21 2:04 PM, Nick Bebout wrote: > > > > Since its beginnings, the Fedora Project has used the freenode IRC > > > > network for our project communications. Due to a variety of recent > > > > changes to that network, the Fedora Project is moving our IRC > > > > communications to Libera.Chat. > > > > > > If a still-fuzzy "variety of recent changes to that network" are the > > > reason for this latest fire-drill/tempest, then just fyi, > > > A Lee's provided some documented reply, > > > > > > > > > https://raw.githubusercontent.com/freenode/web-7.0/main/static/files/on-freenode.pdf > > > https://freenode.net/news/post-mortem-may21 > > > > > > To my read it doesn't seem as clear-cut as some are making it all out to > > > be. If 'trust' is the underlying issue here, there seems to be enuf not > > > passing the smell test on 'both sides'. > > > > > > IME, projects want a place to talk that's trustworthy. > > > > Freenode has also shut down every channel that posted a libera.chat > > link in its topic. That's not very 'trustworthy'. This happened to > > multiple Fedora-related projects/channels, including #cockpit , for > > instance. > > Sure. And, what? Not the 1st time projects have acted on "don't talk about > other projects in here" ... > Did anyone try to contact @freenode about that? I certainly dunno about > that. Maybe so, maybe not. There was a huge backlash which resulted in a half-hearted not-really- an-apology a couple of days ago: https://freenode.net/news/post-mortem-may21 but at that point the damage was already pretty comprehensively done. > Just reading through those screenshotted chats, etc, seems 2 me there's > enough "shouldn't have handled it that way" to go around. Personally speaking I don't tend to care a lot about what people (from any group) were saying to each other in private conversations behind the scenes. However, the fact that only one party is releasing private conversations presumably without the consent of the other party seems...significant, especially when one of the more important trusts we place in the parties in question is to protect the privacy of tens of thousands of *other* people's private conversations. > > If it's all thoroughly researched, understood, and rationally decided, then > I'm certainly cool with it. > > All _I_ heard was some buzz in #fedora* @ freenode a week or so back that > "moving fast/immediately is too hard, and would be too disruptive to users", > and then suddenly, this^^ email. Yeah, that was the position initially, when it wasn't entirely clear if there was a Right Side and a Wrong Side, and there was no completely clear reason to question the good faith of either side. We figured we'd hedge for some time at least, as did many other projects. No-one particularly wanted to spend several days at pantscon 1 shifting a ton of stuff from one IRC network to another. But Freenode taking over hundreds of channels that did nothing more than put a link to another channel on another network in their #topic rather focused people's minds on the issue, I think. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA IRC: adamw | Twitter: adamw_ha https://www.happyassassin.net ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Re: IRC Announcement
due specifically to Andrew Lee's actions. I'd bet $0.05 and a half-eaten donut that most folks shrieking about this would be hard-pressed to regurgitate much of anything beyond 'headlines', with little actual insight into objective details. But then, I'm often wrong. Now, back to real work for me. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Re: IRC Announcement
On Fri, May 28, 2021 at 12:32 PM PGNet Dev wrote: > > Andrew Lee has a flexible relationship with the truth. This is not a > both sides issue, as every other free software project has also agreed. > > Well, it seems you're good then. So, great. > > Just for me, not my 1st rodeo dealing with the spectrum from > megalomaniacal-sociopathic-CEOs to petulant-lemming-staff-actions > And, like I said, to my read, not so clear cut, despite declarations that > "This is not a both sides issue". > > I just shared some add'l info that I thought was relevant so folks could > read a bit (more) & make their OWN decisions rather than just blindly do > what (arguably) "every other free software project" is doing. > That's fine. It's good to have all the information. This is just my opinion, but while everyone has made mistakes, this mass migration is due specifically to Andrew Lee's actions. -Dan ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Re: IRC Announcement
Andrew Lee has a flexible relationship with the truth. This is not a both sides issue, as every other free software project has also agreed. Well, it seems you're good then. So, great. Just for me, not my 1st rodeo dealing with the spectrum from megalomaniacal-sociopathic-CEOs to petulant-lemming-staff-actions And, like I said, to my read, not so clear cut, despite declarations that "This is not a both sides issue". I just shared some add'l info that I thought was relevant so folks could read a bit (more) & make their OWN decisions rather than just blindly do what (arguably) "every other free software project" is doing. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Re: IRC Announcement
On 5/28/21 12:14 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: On Fri, 2021-05-28 at 12:01 -0400, PGNet Dev wrote: On 5/27/21 2:04 PM, Nick Bebout wrote: Since its beginnings, the Fedora Project has used the freenode IRC network for our project communications. Due to a variety of recent changes to that network, the Fedora Project is moving our IRC communications to Libera.Chat. If a still-fuzzy "variety of recent changes to that network" are the reason for this latest fire-drill/tempest, then just fyi, A Lee's provided some documented reply,    https://raw.githubusercontent.com/freenode/web-7.0/main/static/files/on-freenode.pdf    https://freenode.net/news/post-mortem-may21 To my read it doesn't seem as clear-cut as some are making it all out to be. If 'trust' is the underlying issue here, there seems to be enuf not passing the smell test on 'both sides'. IME, projects want a place to talk that's trustworthy. Freenode has also shut down every channel that posted a libera.chat link in its topic. That's not very 'trustworthy'. This happened to multiple Fedora-related projects/channels, including #cockpit , for instance. Sure. And, what? Not the 1st time projects have acted on "don't talk about other projects in here" ... Did anyone try to contact @freenode about that? I certainly dunno about that. Maybe so, maybe not. Just reading through those screenshotted chats, etc, seems 2 me there's enough "shouldn't have handled it that way" to go around. I'm not 'defending' _any_ purile/petty/powermad/etc. BS. I'm jut fyi'ing here, in the hopes that folks will make / have made an informed decision -- and pick-their-poison, and not simply to the lemmings-off-a-cliff biz cuz, "hey, it's the new hotness". If it's all thoroughly researched, understood, and rationally decided, then I'm certainly cool with it. All _I_ heard was some buzz in #fedora* @ freenode a week or so back that "moving fast/immediately is too hard, and would be too disruptive to users", and then suddenly, this^^ email. Beyond that, not a clue as to what discussion was had. Not that it's "my project" to begin with, so few expectations 'bout that in the 1st place. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Re: IRC Announcement
On Fri, May 28, 2021 at 12:01 PM PGNet Dev wrote: > On 5/27/21 2:04 PM, Nick Bebout wrote: > > Since its beginnings, the Fedora Project has used the freenode IRC > network for our project communications. Due to a variety of recent changes > to that network, the Fedora Project is moving our IRC communications to > Libera.Chat. > > If a still-fuzzy "variety of recent changes to that network" are the > reason for this latest fire-drill/tempest, then just fyi, > A Lee's provided some documented reply, > > > https://raw.githubusercontent.com/freenode/web-7.0/main/static/files/on-freenode.pdf >https://freenode.net/news/post-mortem-may21 > > To my read it doesn't seem as clear-cut as some are making it all out to > be. If 'trust' is the underlying issue here, there seems to be enuf not > passing the smell test on 'both sides'. > > IME, projects want a place to talk that's trustworthy. > > > > caveat emptor. > Andrew Lee has a flexible relationship with the truth. This is not a both sides issue, as every other free software project has also agreed. -Dan ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Re: IRC Announcement
On Fri, 2021-05-28 at 12:01 -0400, PGNet Dev wrote: > On 5/27/21 2:04 PM, Nick Bebout wrote: > > Since its beginnings, the Fedora Project has used the freenode IRC network > > for our project communications. Due to a variety of recent changes to that > > network, the Fedora Project is moving our IRC communications to Libera.Chat. > > If a still-fuzzy "variety of recent changes to that network" are the reason > for this latest fire-drill/tempest, then just fyi, > A Lee's provided some documented reply, > > Â Â Â > https://raw.githubusercontent.com/freenode/web-7.0/main/static/files/on-freenode.pdf > Â Â Â https://freenode.net/news/post-mortem-may21 > > To my read it doesn't seem as clear-cut as some are making it all out to be. > If 'trust' is the underlying issue here, there seems to be enuf not passing > the smell test on 'both sides'. > > IME, projects want a place to talk that's trustworthy. Freenode has also shut down every channel that posted a libera.chat link in its topic. That's not very 'trustworthy'. This happened to multiple Fedora-related projects/channels, including #cockpit , for instance. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA IRC: adamw | Twitter: adamw_ha https://www.happyassassin.net ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Re: IRC Announcement
On 5/27/21 2:04 PM, Nick Bebout wrote: Since its beginnings, the Fedora Project has used the freenode IRC network for our project communications. Due to a variety of recent changes to that network, the Fedora Project is moving our IRC communications to Libera.Chat. If a still-fuzzy "variety of recent changes to that network" are the reason for this latest fire-drill/tempest, then just fyi, A Lee's provided some documented reply, https://raw.githubusercontent.com/freenode/web-7.0/main/static/files/on-freenode.pdf https://freenode.net/news/post-mortem-may21 To my read it doesn't seem as clear-cut as some are making it all out to be. If 'trust' is the underlying issue here, there seems to be enuf not passing the smell test on 'both sides'. IME, projects want a place to talk that's trustworthy. caveat emptor. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
IRC Announcement
Since its beginnings, the Fedora Project has used the freenode IRC network for our project communications. Due to a variety of recent changes to that network, the Fedora Project is moving our IRC communications to Libera.Chat. If you are a current IRC user, please go and register your nick(s) on Libera.Chat ( https://libera.chat/guides/registration#registering ) and rejoin the #fedora related channels you wish to. You can take this opportunity to choose a new secure password and make sure you are connecting via SSL. There is good documentation about choosing an IRC client at https://libera.chat/guides/clients If you are a Matrix user, we ask for your patience as we get bridges setup on the new network. If you were joined to rooms via the generic freenode bridge, you will need to leave them and rejoin the fedora rooms in matrix (which will be plumbed with the Libera channels) As of 2021-05-28 our official IRC presence is on irc.libera.chat. Many Fedora channels have moved over and are ready on Libera.Chat. However, less-used channels have not be automatically setup. If you need a specific #fedora-* IRC channel setup, please file a ticket at http://pagure.io/irc requesting the channel. New channels should have the same name as they did on freenode. For example: #fedora, #fedora-admin, #fedora-devel, and #fedora-join. If you would like a fedora IRC ‘cloak’ you can request it at: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LiberaCloaks (an IRC cloak obfuscates your client host address and shows ‘fedora’ instead). Please note that cloaks are not foolproof, there are ways for people to still get your IP, but they do make it more difficult for people to obtain your IP. Also, look for upcoming exciting announcements around Fedora’s Matrix presence. nb ___ devel-announce mailing list -- devel-annou...@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-announce-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel-annou...@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
