Re: More declarative RPMs
Glad to hear there's a lot of interest in this! I think file triggers would definitely help with optimizing containerization, but I think it still has some issues. Two properties that would be desirable for optimizing containerization are: 1. Mergeability. If multiple packages perform the same task, it can just be run once. 2. Equivalence of incremental changes and a clean build (or anti-hysteresis; see https://blog.verbum.org/2020/08/22/immutable-%E2%86%92-reprovisionable-anti-hysteresis/). If different systems install (or uninstall) the same packages in a different order, is the final state guaranteed to be identical? I think transactional file triggers help with 1, but I don't think they currently guarantee 2. I'm wondering if there'd be any way to allow RPMs to guarantee 2. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Re: More declarative RPMs
On Wed, 2022-02-16 at 10:35 +, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: > Definitely. I have long said that any time there's a scriptlet in an > RPM package, we should work towards removing it. > > BTW I found this F31 change proposal. Did it happen? The bug was > CLOSED/CURRENTRELEASE. > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/LimitScriptletUsage > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1754666 > Didn't have enough resources, so got dropped. Some upstream code/data is here: https://github.com/james-antill/scriptlets-monitor https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JamesAntill/ScriptletUsage https://github.com/james-antill/combined ...and a couple of things went into the distro. IIRC the rough thoughts/conclusions, at the time, was that the big win was when you could get a complete install done without any scriptlets and it should be possible to get a bunch of the small cases to that win state (@minimal, base image). Maybe get @server a release or two later. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Re: More declarative RPMs
On Wed, Feb 16, 2022 at 7:54 AM Miroslav Suchý wrote: > > Dne 16. 02. 22 v 9:43 Aleksandra Fedorova napsal(a): > > doesn't say anything about scriptlets being discouraged: > > because we are far from using a word "discouraged". But yes, filetriggers and > other similar methods should be prefered. > I'd even been looking into designing some triggers for eliminating the systemd unit macros we use in spec files too... It's tricky, but I'd like to get rid of them. :) -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth! ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Re: More declarative RPMs
Dne 16. 02. 22 v 9:43 Aleksandra Fedorova napsal(a): doesn't say anything about scriptlets being discouraged: because we are far from using a word "discouraged". But yes, filetriggers and other similar methods should be prefered. Miroslav ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Re: More declarative RPMs
On Wed, Feb 16, 2022 at 09:43:05AM +0100, Aleksandra Fedorova wrote: > Hi, > > On Wed, Feb 16, 2022 at 9:18 AM Miroslav Suchý wrote: > > > > Dne 15. 02. 22 v 22:08 Matthew Kenigsberg napsal(a): > > > > It sounds like there's already some effort to make tasks in RPMs like > > adding users more declarative: > > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/packaging-guidelines/UsersAndGroups/ > > > > Which is still not finished and you still need to call the old scriptlet > > when you need the user to exist during %post. :( > > > > Do you think it would be possible to move some of the configuration tasks > > performed in scriptlets into something declarative that could be merged > > with other configuration? > > > > Yes. Take the > > > > https://src.fedoraproject.org/lookaside/rpm-specs-latest.tar.xz > > > > grep for common scriptlets and resolve them one-by-one. Starting with > > common one. But it is huge task! > > > > You can choose where you will start: > > > > * mkfontdir - which can be replaced by filetriggers. > > > > * update-desktop-database - which - I believe - has been already replaced > > by filetriggers, but it is still used. > > > > *update-alternatives - which no one yet touched > > > > and many many others > > Do I understand correctly that there is a general agreement that it is > the right direction to take, and the main reason why we are not there > yet is the size of the effort? Definitely. I have long said that any time there's a scriptlet in an RPM package, we should work towards removing it. BTW I found this F31 change proposal. Did it happen? The bug was CLOSED/CURRENTRELEASE. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/LimitScriptletUsage https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1754666 > I tried to find any good doc but the page in Packaging Guidelines > doesn't say anything about scriptlets being discouraged: > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/packaging-guidelines/Scriptlets/ > > Maybe we should make some long-term landing page for this initiative, > similarly to what Miro and the Python team did for Python 2 to Python > 3 migration? So that it is easier to get people started on it. > > The list you posted can already be a good start. > > And I don't think proven packagers rights will be really necessary as > the work can be done via merge requests and should be accessible for > all. Rich. -- Richard Jones, Virtualization Group, Red Hat http://people.redhat.com/~rjones Read my programming and virtualization blog: http://rwmj.wordpress.com virt-df lists disk usage of guests without needing to install any software inside the virtual machine. Supports Linux and Windows. http://people.redhat.com/~rjones/virt-df/ ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Re: More declarative RPMs
On 16. 02. 22 9:43, Aleksandra Fedorova wrote: Do I understand correctly that there is a general agreement that it is the right direction to take, and the main reason why we are not there yet is the size of the effort? Correct. -- Miro Hrončok -- Phone: +420777974800 IRC: mhroncok ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Re: More declarative RPMs
Hi, On Wed, Feb 16, 2022 at 9:18 AM Miroslav Suchý wrote: > > Dne 15. 02. 22 v 22:08 Matthew Kenigsberg napsal(a): > > It sounds like there's already some effort to make tasks in RPMs like adding > users more declarative: > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/packaging-guidelines/UsersAndGroups/ > > Which is still not finished and you still need to call the old scriptlet when > you need the user to exist during %post. :( > > Do you think it would be possible to move some of the configuration tasks > performed in scriptlets into something declarative that could be merged with > other configuration? > > Yes. Take the > > https://src.fedoraproject.org/lookaside/rpm-specs-latest.tar.xz > > grep for common scriptlets and resolve them one-by-one. Starting with common > one. But it is huge task! > > You can choose where you will start: > > * mkfontdir - which can be replaced by filetriggers. > > * update-desktop-database - which - I believe - has been already replaced by > filetriggers, but it is still used. > > *update-alternatives - which no one yet touched > > and many many others Do I understand correctly that there is a general agreement that it is the right direction to take, and the main reason why we are not there yet is the size of the effort? I tried to find any good doc but the page in Packaging Guidelines doesn't say anything about scriptlets being discouraged: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/packaging-guidelines/Scriptlets/ Maybe we should make some long-term landing page for this initiative, similarly to what Miro and the Python team did for Python 2 to Python 3 migration? So that it is easier to get people started on it. The list you posted can already be a good start. And I don't think proven packagers rights will be really necessary as the work can be done via merge requests and should be accessible for all. -- Aleksandra Fedorova bookwar ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Re: More declarative RPMs
On 16/02/2022 09:17, Miroslav Suchý wrote: * update-desktop-database - which - I believe - has been already replaced by filetriggers, but it is still used. update-desktop-database, update-mime-database, ldconfig, update-manpages and gtk-update-icon-cache should be removed from all Fedora SPECs. Proven packagers can do this. -- Sincerely, Vitaly Zaitsev (vit...@easycoding.org) ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Re: More declarative RPMs
On 16/02/2022 09:17, Miroslav Suchý wrote: * update-desktop-database - which - I believe - has been already replaced by filetriggers, but it is still used. update-desktop-database, update-mime-database, ldconfig, update-manpages and gtk-update-icon-cache should be removed from all Fedora SPECs. Proven packages can do this. -- Sincerely, Vitaly Zaitsev (vit...@easycoding.org) ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Re: More declarative RPMs
On 15/02/2022 22:08, Matthew Kenigsberg wrote: It sounds like there's already some effort to make tasks in RPMs like adding users more declarative:https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/packaging-guidelines/UsersAndGroups/ https://pagure.io/packaging-committee/issue/1158 Do you think it would be possible to move some of the configuration tasks performed in scriptlets into something declarative that could be merged with other configuration? +1 for removing scriptlets. -- Sincerely, Vitaly Zaitsev (vit...@easycoding.org) ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Re: More declarative RPMs
On Wed, 2022-02-16 at 09:17 +0100, Miroslav Suchý wrote: > Dne 15. 02. 22 v 22:08 Matthew Kenigsberg napsal(a): > > It sounds like there's already some effort to make tasks in RPMs like > > adding users more > > declarative:https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/packaging-guidelines/UsersAndGroups/ > Which is still not finished and you still need to call the old scriptlet when > you need the user to exist during %post. :( > > Do you think it would be possible to move some of the configuration tasks > > performed in scriptlets into something declarative that could be merged > > with other configuration? > > Yes. Take the > > https://src.fedoraproject.org/lookaside/rpm-specs-latest.tar.xz > > grep for common scriptlets and resolve them one-by-one. Starting with common > one. But it is huge task! > > You can choose where you will start: > > * mkfontdir - which can be replaced by filetriggers. > > * update-desktop-database - which - I believe - has been already replaced by > filetriggers, but it is still used. > > *update-alternatives - which no one yet touched > > and many many others As well as Zbigniew, I believe Will Woods was quite interested in this stuff for a while. Not sure if he still is. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA IRC: adamw | Twitter: adamw_ha https://www.happyassassin.net ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
Re: More declarative RPMs
Dne 15. 02. 22 v 22:08 Matthew Kenigsberg napsal(a): It sounds like there's already some effort to make tasks in RPMs like adding users more declarative:https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/packaging-guidelines/UsersAndGroups/ Which is still not finished and you still need to call the old scriptlet when you need the user to exist during %post. :( Do you think it would be possible to move some of the configuration tasks performed in scriptlets into something declarative that could be merged with other configuration? Yes. Take the https://src.fedoraproject.org/lookaside/rpm-specs-latest.tar.xz grep for common scriptlets and resolve them one-by-one. Starting with common one. But it is huge task! You can choose where you will start: * mkfontdir - which can be replaced by filetriggers. * update-desktop-database - which - I believe - has been already replaced by filetriggers, but it is still used. *update-alternatives - which no one yet touched and many many others Miroslav___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
More declarative RPMs
Hi, I was discussing containerization and making RPMs more declarative with Aleksandra Fedorova, and she suggested I ask here and mention Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek. It sounds like there's already some effort to make tasks in RPMs like adding users more declarative: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/packaging-guidelines/UsersAndGroups/ I'm working with rpm-ostree (https://coreos.github.io/rpm-ostree/) and Butane (https://coreos.github.io/butane/) to manage system state more declaratively. Currently rpm-ostree manages RPMs and then Butane handles things like putting config files in /etc or creating users. It sounds like there's some overlap between the changes in RPMs around managing users and Butane, so I'm wondering if there could be more cooperation. If RPMs relied less on scriptlets and more on declarative config that could be merged, it would make optimizations for containerization a lot easier. Each package in a container image could be in a separate layer, which would allow much better sharing between container images. Adding a single package to a container image could just require pulling the package, rather than running a scriptlet that could possibly change the base image. Do you think it would be possible to move some of the configuration tasks performed in scriptlets into something declarative that could be merged with other configuration? Are there any ways rpm-ostree/Butane could align itself better with the direction RPMs are taking? Is there a solution or format that would satisfy the requirements of both tools? Thanks, Matthew ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam on the list, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure
