Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
Jaroslav Reznik wrote: > On Wednesday, August 11, 2010 04:28:07 pm Michał Piotrowski wrote: >> Hi, >> >> 2010/8/11 Andre Robatino : >> > Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 is now available [1]. Please refer to the >> > following pages for download links and testing instructions. >> >> I downloaded >> http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/nightly-composes/desktop/desktop- x86_ >> 64-20100810.15.iso - it is too large to fit on the CD. > > Same for Plasma Desktop ISO - we are oversized now, we know it. FYI, what he calls the "Plasma Desktop ISO" is the KDE-Live spin. KDE upstream now wants people to refer to "KDE" only when talking about the project, the desktop is the "Plasma Desktop" or "KDE Plasma Desktop", the libraries are the "KDE Development Platform", the applications are the "KDE Applications" and the whole thing is the "KDE Software Compilation" (but upstream prefers it if people are specific about what parts of the compilation they talk about rather than just using s/KDE/KDE SC/g). We hope that we will be able to meet the size constraints for the KDE (Plasma Desktop) spin for the Beta and Final. We just had other priorities for the Alpha. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 It is common for iso size to be over the 700MB target size due to most developers and testers doing their work in virtual machines these days. Therefore, iso size is not an issue. And bringing it back down to below the 700MB size limit for CD is always aimed for for the final release(s). And Michael Cronenworth, some of us (myself included) live in countries where broadband is still way behind where it should be for the year 2010. Namingly where I live, Australia, where high speed b/band suitable for network installs comes at a rather large cost. Therefore, we resort to downloading images instead for convenience. Regards - -- http://home.comcen.com.au/foxmulder881/signature/details.html -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJMY9aQAAoJEDb/U0a6C32qIswIAINyfvyYV8BHK/Jj4Y9FOIrM XZA5bimQ/BE7zo1MWmJQYHWYXakNjjjzG5TWKgW2JotrOX+ECZcSiLZ2c52QfNw1 bf+ZPThzML1pttH6nli2nWxfyzaXI+W757uawygMPiBgYtsDpkSYL+uYNMc/M//j cmGCO+n4Y1L9lDLKMeaG9P3Sbt85dXWz3dJDebaA84hpaUbeshj1mvsB2iGFaAUM 8oIyK9BFFnFaEqpr5aTAhluF77ymEes2OcdB17ibNj4uGUkiDfSL1PEu0MPif1Ve nRn5wzifyqS/UgtgXl2iVdiDCRGw4E9UK9HMFkvTGi3fKID/NFSk8MSVXFOxAQo= =bFa0 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
On Thursday, August 12, 2010 01:10:08 pm Chris Jones wrote: > It is common for iso size to be over the 700MB target size due to most > developers and testers doing their work in virtual machines these days. > Therefore, iso size is not an issue. And bringing it back down to below > the 700MB size limit for CD is always aimed for for the final release(s). > > And Michael Cronenworth, some of us (myself included) live in countries > where broadband is still way behind where it should be for the year > 2010. Namingly where I live, Australia, where high speed b/band suitable > for network installs comes at a rather large cost. Therefore, we resort > to downloading images instead for convenience. Problem is not an image (we will provide it in the future, forever), the issue is size constraint - software grows faster and faster, we have more dependencies etc. -> means less software on LiveCD... Jaroslav > Regards -- Jaroslav Řezník Software Engineer - Base Operating Systems Brno Office: +420 532 294 275 Mobile: +420 602 797 774 Red Hat, Inc. http://cz.redhat.com/ -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 13:27:05 +0200, Jaroslav Reznik wrote: > Problem is not an image (we will provide it in the future, forever), the > issue > is size constraint - software grows faster and faster, we have more > dependencies > etc. -> means less software on LiveCD... I hope to occasionally push back a little against this. When LZMA squashfs makes it upstream (it looks like it won't happen in time for F14) we will probably gain about 10% on what we can fit in a given size image. Another change that could happen is droppong the embedded ext3 image and use squashfs directly. (Selinux should now be usable on squashsfs file systems.) That might gain us a bit more space. Also looking forward, USB drives are less limited in space and faster (especially seek time) than spinning disks and make more sense for live images in many circumstances. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
Bruno Wolff III wrote: > I hope to occasionally push back a little against this. When LZMA squashfs > makes it upstream (it looks like it won't happen in time for F14) we will > probably gain about 10% on what we can fit in a given size image. It's quite sad that we're waiting for upstream there. The feature exists, we could ship it, yet we prefer crippling our live images by dropping more and more applications to meet the size constraints with obsolete compression technology. What happened to the leading-edge Fedora? > Another change that could happen is droppong the embedded ext3 image and > use squashfs directly. (Selinux should now be usable on squashsfs file > systems.) That might gain us a bit more space. Won't that break liveinst? Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 01:18:29 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: > Bruno Wolff III wrote: > > I hope to occasionally push back a little against this. When LZMA squashfs > > makes it upstream (it looks like it won't happen in time for F14) we will > > probably gain about 10% on what we can fit in a given size image. > > It's quite sad that we're waiting for upstream there. The feature exists, we > could ship it, yet we prefer crippling our live images by dropping more and > more applications to meet the size constraints with obsolete compression > technology. What happened to the leading-edge Fedora? We'll until Lougher writes something that Linus will accept, we need to wait. I think someone paid him to work on xattr, so it makes sense that he would give that higher priority. > > Another change that could happen is droppong the embedded ext3 image and > > use squashfs directly. (Selinux should now be usable on squashsfs file > > systems.) That might gain us a bit more space. > > Won't that break liveinst? I am not sure. I haven't looked into it too deeply yet. I have enough stuff to do that I probably won't get to it real soon. I would guess there would be some way to make it work, but it might be a little different than what happens now. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
Bruno Wolff III wrote: > We'll until Lougher writes something that Linus will accept, we need to > wait. But WHY? IMHO, an upstream tarball is just a base to apply our patches onto. We shouldn't be prisoners of upstream, especially when upstream processes are just too slow to fit our needs. Backporting, sometimes from more or less unofficial development branches, is a required part of being on the leading edge. We cannot be "First" with a religious adhesion to upstream. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
Hi, > Bruno Wolff III wrote: >> We'll until Lougher writes something that Linus will accept, we >> need to wait. > But WHY? IMHO, an upstream tarball is just a base to apply our > patches onto. Because the kernel team doesn't agree with you, of course. This should be unsurprising, because the stated objectives of the Fedora project as a whole don't agree with you either: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Staying_close_to_upstream_projects - Chris. -- Chris Ball One Laptop Per Child -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
Chris Ball wrote: > This should be unsurprising, because the stated objectives of the > Fedora project as a whole don't agree with you either: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Staying_close_to_upstream_projects Those same objectives say that Fedora should "be on the leading edge of free and open source technology". To me, this includes shipping a great new technology such as LZMA SquashFS, without waiting for the upstream kernel. "Staying close to upstream projects" isn't without exceptions either. In addition, another objective of Fedora is to "include a wide range of packages", so we should support technologies which allow us to ship more packages on our live images. Basically, we're missing out on an important new feature and shipping less featureful live images than we could for purely political reasons. :-( Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 08/12/2010 10:16 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote: > Chris Ball wrote: >> This should be unsurprising, because the stated objectives of the >> Fedora project as a whole don't agree with you either: >> >> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives >> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Staying_close_to_upstream_projects > > Those same objectives say that Fedora should "be on the leading edge of free > and open source technology". To me, this includes shipping a great new > technology such as LZMA SquashFS, without waiting for the upstream kernel. > "Staying close to upstream projects" isn't without exceptions either. In > addition, another objective of Fedora is to "include a wide range of > packages", so we should support technologies which allow us to ship more > packages on our live images. > > Basically, we're missing out on an important new feature and shipping less > featureful live images than we could for purely political reasons. :-( > > Kevin Kofler > Do you have any sort of proof that it's a "political" reason? It would seem to me that our kernel maintainers do not wish to include code that hasn't been blessed by Linus in our packages. Doing so has burned us in the past, and perhaps this code has real issues that are keeping it out of upstream. We should not presume to be smarter than upstream, particularly when the kernel is involved. The package maintainer ultimately has control over what does or does not go into their package, and in this case they seem to be favoring sticking close to upstream as opposed to throwing in code willy nilly because it looks cool. Upstream has a code review process for a reason. - -- Jesse Keating Fedora -- Freedom² is a feature! identi.ca: http://identi.ca/jkeating -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkxk14AACgkQ4v2HLvE71NV3AACfSruOoxjL2ZY4R6H/TukKRmr/ 5KIAoICOg+OAh8Ho+tcECINMHOHNF2ij =L+lK -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
Once upon a time, Kevin Kofler said: > To me, this includes shipping a great new > technology such as LZMA SquashFS, without waiting for the upstream kernel. You've insisted over and over (and over) again that the KDE SIG should have absolute authority over the KDE packages, and that even FESCo shouldn't be able to set an update policy for KDE packages. Why don't you give the kernel maintainers the same courtesy? -- Chris Adams Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
Jesse Keating wrote: > Do you have any sort of proof that it's a "political" reason? It would > seem to me that our kernel maintainers do not wish to include code that > hasn't been blessed by Linus in our packages. That's political. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
Chris Adams wrote: > Why don't you give the kernel maintainers the same courtesy? Because LZMA SquashFS is a feature which affects the live images, and almost exclusively the live images, and as such the SIGs controlling the live images should be the ones making the decision. This means the 4 desktop SIGs. (And FWIW, GNOME really needs a community-oriented SIG instead of the current "RH Desktop Team == Fedora GNOME maintainers" practice.) Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 8:24 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote: > Chris Adams wrote: > > Why don't you give the kernel maintainers the same courtesy? > > Because LZMA SquashFS is a feature which affects the live images, and > almost > exclusively the live images, and as such the SIGs controlling the live > images should be the ones making the decision. > Sorry but no. There is only one kernel for the entire distribution and I rather rely on kernel maintainers expertise on their packages rather than SIG's trying to dictate what patches the kernel should carry. The SIG participants are not kernel developers. If non upstream patches is needed, it requires someone to take ownership of keeping the patches updated for the kernel updates. If you are volunteering to do that work, please talk to the kernel developers. Otherwise, let them do their job without micro management. Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
Once upon a time, Kevin Kofler said: > Jesse Keating wrote: > > Do you have any sort of proof that it's a "political" reason? It would > > seem to me that our kernel maintainers do not wish to include code that > > hasn't been blessed by Linus in our packages. > > That's political. Again, proof? They have enough patches to sort through every release as it is, and they don't want to add more. -- Chris Adams Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
Once upon a time, Kevin Kofler said: > Because LZMA SquashFS is a feature which affects the live images, and almost > exclusively the live images, and as such the SIGs controlling the live > images should be the ones making the decision. SIGs don't exist to exercise control over all packages in the distribution (or all packages that tangentially affect them). -- Chris Adams Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Sorry but no. There is only one kernel for the entire distribution and I > rather rely on kernel maintainers expertise on their packages rather than > SIG's trying to dictate what patches the kernel should carry. The SIG > participants are not kernel developers. But sometimes the maintainers of individual package maintainers have to cave in to allow for a coordinated distribution experience. That's why we are a distribution and not a bunch of packages thrown together. > If non upstream patches is needed, it requires someone to take ownership > of keeping the patches updated for the kernel updates. If you are > volunteering to do that work, please talk to the kernel developers. I would, but my experience is that they'll probably say "no" anyway. I know it has been offered in the past, for various out-of-tree patches and kernel modules, they only accepted it in very few cases (e.g. for Hans de Goede's webcam driver stuff because he also worked on getting the stuff merged upstream, not just into Fedora; but it's far from easy for somebody who's not already an experienced upstream kernel developer to manage that, LKML is a tough place: there's politics making it hard for new contributors to get their stuff in, there are many rules (technical, cosmetic (i.e. code formatting rules), and social) you have to learn over the time, and the kernel is also a hard codebase to work with in the first place; it's a lot easier to regularly rebase a patch than to make it palatable to upstream, that's why there are so many out-of-tree patchsets). Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 07:16:36AM +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: > Basically, we're missing out on an important new feature and shipping less > featureful live images than we could for purely political reasons. :-( The reasons are purely practical. If upstream development is targeting upstream kernels then we're either stuck with whatever version of the patchset happened to apply to the kernel version that we're shipping or we have to backport the upstream code. The former means that someone has to spend time backporting upstream fixes, the latter means that someone has to spend time backporting the entire code. Couple that with Squashfs's traditionally pretty dreadful userspace compatibility and you've got a large quantity of work that would be the responsibility of the kernel team. If there's someone with extensive experience in maintaining a Linux filesystem who wants to maintain this code in Fedora then it's worth having a discussion about it, but otherwise there simply isn't enough manpower available to do a proper job of looking after the code. That's not politics. -- Matthew Garrett | mj...@srcf.ucam.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
Once upon a time, Kevin Kofler said: > but it's far from easy for somebody who's > not already an experienced upstream kernel developer to manage that, LKML is > a tough place: there's politics making it hard for new contributors to get > their stuff in, there are many rules (technical, cosmetic (i.e. code > formatting rules), and social) you have to learn over the time, I've heard this before, but I didn't find it to be that much different than any other project where I've contributed changes. I think the biggest annoyance was that, because the kernel project is so big and hierarchical, you don't always get a lot of feedback (even when one of the maintainers picks up your patch in their tree to go upstream). -- Chris Adams Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 16:54:22 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: > Chris Adams wrote: > > Why don't you give the kernel maintainers the same courtesy? > > Because LZMA SquashFS is a feature which affects the live images, and almost > exclusively the live images, and as such the SIGs controlling the live > images should be the ones making the decision. This means the 4 desktop > SIGs. (And FWIW, GNOME really needs a community-oriented SIG instead of the > current "RH Desktop Team == Fedora GNOME maintainers" practice.) In this case I think waiting is better, even though I proposed the feature. I was planning on requesting a back port if a patch for it gets accepted for 2.6.36, but it seems unlikely to happen as the merge window will be closing shortly. The issue is that if we apply the patch that was submitted for an earlier kernel (2.6.33 I think), and it had a problem due to some other change in the kernel, we don't have a practical way to support it. (While Lougher was VERY helpful recently with tracking down a squashfs-tools bug, we can't always count on having a few days of his time to provide us with support.) I really think the benefits and costs need to be looked at on a case by case basis and the package maintainers should be the ones making the call. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
On 08/13/2010 08:58 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote: > But sometimes the maintainers of individual package maintainers have to cave > in to allow for a coordinated distribution experience. That's why we are a > distribution and not a bunch of packages thrown together. Coordinated distribution experience requires requests and collaboration and not demands. You will have to change your approach. >> If non upstream patches is needed, it requires someone to take ownership >> of keeping the patches updated for the kernel updates. If you are >> volunteering to do that work, please talk to the kernel developers. > I would, but my experience is that they'll probably say "no" anyway. I know > it has been offered in the past, for various out-of-tree patches and kernel > modules, they only accepted it in very few cases (e.g. for Hans de Goede's > webcam driver stuff because he also worked on getting the stuff merged > upstream, not just into Fedora; but it's far from easy for somebody who's > not already an experienced upstream kernel developer to manage that, LKML is > a tough place: there's politics making it hard for new contributors to get > their stuff in, there are many rules (technical, cosmetic (i.e. code > formatting rules), and social) you have to learn over the time, and the > kernel is also a hard codebase to work with in the first place; it's a lot > easier to regularly rebase a patch than to make it palatable to upstream, > that's why there are so many out-of-tree patchsets). That is also why so many out of tree patchsets do not have the quality of what is in upstream. They have not gone through the feedback cycle to get them fixed. Similar to packages in the repo vs not.Noone wants to take on more patches and carry them forward without ownership and a timeline to get those patches merged. If you are not willing to do that work and yes it is tough, then you don't get to demand anything either. Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
Chris Adams wrote: > Again, proof? They have enough patches to sort through every release as > it is, and they don't want to add more. This doesn't strike me as a strong enough TECHNICAL reason to reject a feature which would make all our live images better. Both the GNOME and the KDE live image had to remove useful packages due to size constraints, improving the compression would allow us to ship more software while still keeping the ISOs CD-sized. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 05:51:57PM +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: > Chris Adams wrote: > > Again, proof? They have enough patches to sort through every release as > > it is, and they don't want to add more. > > This doesn't strike me as a strong enough TECHNICAL reason to reject a > feature which would make all our live images better. Both the GNOME and the > KDE live image had to remove useful packages due to size constraints, > improving the compression would allow us to ship more software while still > keeping the ISOs CD-sized. Then those impacted should do the work necessary to ensure that there's a supportable version of the code available to use in the Fedora kernel, or alternatively take over enough of the existing kernel work that someone else gains enough time to take responsibility. -- Matthew Garrett | mj...@srcf.ucam.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
Chris Adams wrote: > SIGs don't exist to exercise control over all packages in the > distribution (or all packages that tangentially affect them). As I said elsewhere on this list, that's exactly where our organizational structure fails. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
Bruno Wolff III wrote: > I really think the benefits and costs need to be looked at on a case by > case basis and the package maintainers should be the ones making the call. The problem is, the kernel maintainers (and you, apparently) don't seem to realize what big difference a 10% improvement in compression rate makes to our live images! For KDE, we have to fight for every single MB, often making tough decisions (e.g. size constraints are why we no longer ship Amarok on the live image). Better compression would allow us quite some headroom to work with. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 06:20:29PM +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: > Bruno Wolff III wrote: > > I really think the benefits and costs need to be looked at on a case by > > case basis and the package maintainers should be the ones making the call. > > The problem is, the kernel maintainers (and you, apparently) don't seem to > realize what big difference a 10% improvement in compression rate makes to > our live images! We realize. We just don't care. (for reasons already given) Dave -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 18:20:29 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: > Bruno Wolff III wrote: > > I really think the benefits and costs need to be looked at on a case by > > case basis and the package maintainers should be the ones making the call. > > The problem is, the kernel maintainers (and you, apparently) don't seem to > realize what big difference a 10% improvement in compression rate makes to > our live images! For KDE, we have to fight for every single MB, often making > tough decisions (e.g. size constraints are why we no longer ship Amarok on > the live image). Better compression would allow us quite some headroom to > work with. I think I do realize that a 10% size improvement is very nice. Unfortunately I don't have the ability to maintain Lougher's previously posted patches (and have other work important to Fedora that would greatly suffer if I took time out to learn how to do it). I have similar issues with the Games Spin. That's why I have been pushing for this. But I don't have the money to pay Lougher to do a new implementation now, nor do i have time to learn how do an implementation myself. Also note, that all of the infrastructure is in place except kernel support. So that if say 2.6.37 gains LZMA support for squashfs, you'll be able to use it in F14 to do builds taking advantage of it. You won't necessarily need to wait for F15 to start taking advantage of it. (Though it will end up being too late for the GA Release images unless something unexpected happens in the next few days.) -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
Once upon a time, Kevin Kofler said: > Chris Adams wrote: > > SIGs don't exist to exercise control over all packages in the > > distribution (or all packages that tangentially affect them). > > As I said elsewhere on this list, that's exactly where our organizational > structure fails. That's your opinion, and (many) others disagree. Please stop stating your opinion as fact. -- Chris Adams Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 08/12/2010 11:15 PM, Michael Cronenworth wrote: > By network install, I meant using a local intranet-based HTTP or FTP > server to install from. Ok fair enough, I misunderstood what you meant. My apologies. Regards - -- http://home.comcen.com.au/foxmulder881/signature/details.html -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJMZeUmAAoJEDb/U0a6C32qRboH/ihXxGZdW9YXiLXjYgcDMPMU EUoRQVgx13ue2AzGleV7d0/aqa8uRGVdNVNnUOMl1tA75rl5brv50+cIgM6i76Fm kfljrH4Mftz2c3DRaLkBcW0s+UmkU58IuVPzSsRlmaXgomliPzxv7VB8qXTg6wa+ Bbc5luHP6YdQcKOcjflOJ7QT1zfxO2bAlbqFak4U6IWIGkcKqOdSvC5T0G7OtYzM HBOlYqmmG8aYTGPnpftw6myL0fGlpdQpjoAtCygF8cZnre74wrQO9Rz4VbNdl8Nx HwzKZWs9uD+crlUYGk3VL/gfqhL0o1/ANhomuku0R0HFXcjIPGQC6aPm9X+rBDo= =2mLp -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
On Fri, 2010-08-13 at 10:52 -0500, Chris Adams wrote: > Once upon a time, Kevin Kofler said: > > but it's far from easy for somebody who's > > not already an experienced upstream kernel developer to manage that, LKML > > is > > a tough place: there's politics making it hard for new contributors to get > > their stuff in, there are many rules (technical, cosmetic (i.e. code > > formatting rules), and social) you have to learn over the time, > > I've heard this before, but I didn't find it to be that much different > than any other project where I've contributed changes. I think the > biggest annoyance was that, because the kernel project is so big and > hierarchical, you don't always get a lot of feedback (even when one of > the maintainers picks up your patch in their tree to go upstream). Me either. I'm not a coder, I don't really know anyone involved in kernel development. Yet I have a bona fide kernel commit to my name - f71cf2a2181aef25513272991f54148799ddc1f0 . I notice multiple cases of Kevin complaining how political certain projects are, and how much they hate outsiders, and how difficult it is to get stuff committed to them. I note that the common link between all these cases appears to be Kevin. Perhaps the problem isn't the projects, after all? -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
On Fri 13 August 2010 18:44:37 Adam Williamson wrote: > Perhaps the problem isn't the projects, > after all? The KDE Firefox integration patches were written by openSuSE developers, not Kev. -- Ryan Rix == http://hackersramblings.wordpress.com | http://rix.si/ == == http://rix.si/page/contact/ if you need a word == signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
On Fri, 2010-08-13 at 18:16 +0200, Kevin Kofler wrote: > Chris Adams wrote: > > SIGs don't exist to exercise control over all packages in the > > distribution (or all packages that tangentially affect them). > > As I said elsewhere on this list, that's exactly where our organizational > structure fails. So, your proposal is that FESCo (and possibly the Board) - which you excoriate for not being sufficiently elected for your tastes - be replaced by the SIGs, entirely informal and entirely unelected groups with no formal place in Fedora's governance structure at all? Oh, yes, that's going to work well. How do we decide which SIGs trump which other SIGs if they disagree? How are SIGs - groups which are by their very definition based around certain specific interests - supposed to set distro-wide policies for packaging? Why are groups which anyone can join (or, alternatively, which can choose their membership based on any criteria at all) better qualified to run the project than a board, and committees, to which people are elected by vote of project members? -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
On Fri, 2010-08-13 at 18:49 -0700, Ryan Rix wrote: > On Fri 13 August 2010 18:44:37 Adam Williamson wrote: > > Perhaps the problem isn't the projects, > > after all? > > The KDE Firefox integration patches were written by openSuSE developers, not > Kev. Kevin's the one complaining about how hard they are to get upstream and how 'political' Mozilla is, though. (It would help if Kevin would provide the details people have repeatedly asked for - how exactly has anyone tried to get these patches upstream, and what was the Mozilla project's reason for not taking them yet? I haven't seen answers to those questions.) -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
Adam Williamson wrote: > How do we decide which SIGs trump which other SIGs if they disagree? An arbitration committee can decide in what SIG's area the decision falls. But they should NOT decide the issue (they should ignore entirely, or ideally not even know, which SIG holds what position), just what SIG gets to decide. One useful rule of thumb is that global integration concerns should trump individual packager preferences. > How are SIGs - groups which are by their very definition based around > certain specific interests - supposed to set distro-wide policies for > packaging? FPC would be considered a SIG in such a SIG-driven world, they'd be the SIG responsible for distro-wide packaging policies (and they'd decide them on their own, without FESCo ratification). > Why are groups which anyone can join (or, alternatively, which can choose > their membership based on any criteria at all) better qualified to run the > project than a board, and committees, to which people are elected by vote > of project members? Because those are groups where people know each other (at least through the net, but sometimes also in person) and are used to working together on the same things, and which are composed of experts in the subject matter. It's up to the SIGs to ensure that the people who get to make the decisions are also the ones doing the work (the meritocratic principle), but that's really the individual SIG's problem, and existing SIGs already have well-working ways to ensure that. The election process, on the other hand, is working very badly: only a small portion of the eligible voters actually casts a vote (and even for those, there are no stats on how many cast all-0 votes), and several people who did vote expressed unhappiness about the available candidates (I know I did and I also know I'm not the only one). Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
I wrote: > The election process, on the other hand, is working very badly: only a > small portion of the eligible voters actually casts a vote (and even for > those, there are no stats on how many cast all-0 votes), and several > people who did vote expressed unhappiness about the available candidates > (I know I did and I also know I'm not the only one). PS: The election system is also incompatible with meritocracy, as a new contributor who maintains 1 package has the same rights as an experienced Fedora packager maintaining dozens of packages and comaintaining hundreds for years. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
On Wed, 2010-08-11 at 00:49 -0400, Andre Robatino wrote: > Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 is now available [1]. Please refer to the following > pages for download links and testing instructions. > > Installation: > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Current_Installation_Test > > Desktop: > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Current_Desktop_Test > > Ideally, all Alpha priority test cases for installation [2] and desktop > [3] should pass in order to meet the Alpha Release Criteria [4]. Help > is available on #fedora-qa on irc.freenode.net [5], or on the test list [6]. > > [1] http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-14/f-14-quality-tasks.html > [2] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:Installation_validation_testing > [3] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:Desktop_validation_testing > [4] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_14_Alpha_Release_Criteria > [5] irc://irc.freenode.net/fedora-qa > [6] https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test Thanks, Andre! Everyone please note we have the go/no-go meeting for Alpha release tomorrow afternoon at 5pm Eastern time, so we really *really* need as much testing as possible by then. Any help you all can give to fill out the install and desktop matrices would be greatly appreciated, focusing on the Alpha tests. The live images are not available yet, but coming soon. There will be live images for all four main desktops. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net ___ test-announce mailing list test-annou...@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test-announce -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 1:01 AM, Adam Williamson wrote: > Thanks, Andre! Everyone please note we have the go/no-go meeting for > Alpha release tomorrow afternoon at 5pm Eastern time, so we really > *really* need as much testing as possible by then. I have the Go/No-Go meeting in my calendar as Thursday, August 12, 2010, @ 12:00 AM UTC ( *20:00 EDT/17:00 PDT, Wednesday, August 11, 2010* ). I just want to make sure we're all on the same schedule here. -- Jared Smith Fedora Project Leader -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
Hi, 2010/8/11 Andre Robatino : > Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 is now available [1]. Please refer to the following > pages for download links and testing instructions. > I downloaded http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/nightly-composes/desktop/desktop-x86_64-20100810.15.iso - it is too large to fit on the CD. Regards, Michal -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 08/11/2010 10:28 AM, Michał Piotrowski wrote: > Hi, > > 2010/8/11 Andre Robatino : >> Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 is now available [1]. Please refer to the following >> pages for download links and testing instructions. >> > > I downloaded > http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/nightly-composes/desktop/desktop-x86_64-20100810.15.iso > - it is too large to fit on the CD. > > Regards, > Michal That's very common with the pre-releases. They usually need to be on a DVD. - -- Stephen Gallagher RHCE 804006346421761 Delivering value year after year. Red Hat ranks #1 in value among software vendors. http://www.redhat.com/promo/vendor/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEUEARECAAYFAkxiucgACgkQeiVVYja6o6OwbQCgjCygqz0r7hHngIpjjoe9JFmh 9PEAl1s4Xt/XWOPZUJj/6afEc3J40h8= =J6WU -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
On Wednesday, August 11, 2010 04:28:07 pm Michał Piotrowski wrote: > Hi, > > 2010/8/11 Andre Robatino : > > Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 is now available [1]. Please refer to the following > > pages for download links and testing instructions. > > I downloaded > http://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/nightly-composes/desktop/desktop-x86_ > 64-20100810.15.iso - it is too large to fit on the CD. Same for Plasma Desktop ISO - we are oversized now, we know it. R. > Regards, > Michal -- Jaroslav Řezník Software Engineer - Base Operating Systems Brno Office: +420 532 294 275 Mobile: +420 602 797 774 Red Hat, Inc. http://cz.redhat.com/ -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
Michał Piotrowski on 08/11/2010 09:28 AM wrote: > I > downloadedhttp://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/nightly-composes/desktop/desktop-x86_64-20100810.15.iso > - it is too large to fit on the CD. This is the "Green Age" what are you doing wasting a CD? Mother earth frowns on you. Be kind and reuse your ISO by installing via the network. I'd recommend a USB drive but I think that is still broken. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:03 AM, Michael Cronenworth wrote: > Michał Piotrowski on 08/11/2010 09:28 AM wrote: > > I downloadedhttp:// > alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/nightly-composes/desktop/desktop-x86_64-20100810.15.iso > > - it is too large to fit on the CD. > > This is the "Green Age" what are you doing wasting a CD? Mother earth > frowns on you. Be kind and reuse your ISO by installing via the network. > I'd recommend a USB drive but I think that is still broken. > -- > devel mailing list > devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel > Keep the greening politics to yourself please -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
2010/8/11 Brandon Lozza : > On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:03 AM, Michael Cronenworth > wrote: >> >> Michał Piotrowski on 08/11/2010 09:28 AM wrote: >> > I >> > downloadedhttp://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/nightly-composes/desktop/desktop-x86_64-20100810.15.iso >> > - it is too large to fit on the CD. >> >> This is the "Green Age" what are you doing wasting a CD? Mother earth I love mother earth http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EC5XgyrzSt0 :) >> frowns on you. Be kind and reuse your ISO by installing via the network. My network is too slow for net install of full desktop. I'm using CD-RW >> I'd recommend a USB drive but I think that is still broken. >> -- >> devel mailing list >> devel@lists.fedoraproject.org >> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel > > Keep the greening politics to yourself please I think it's right to recall from time to time others about caring for the environment Regards, M -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
2010/8/11 Michał Piotrowski > 2010/8/11 Brandon Lozza : > > On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:03 AM, Michael Cronenworth > > wrote: > >> > >> Michał Piotrowski on 08/11/2010 09:28 AM wrote: > >> > I > >> > downloadedhttp:// > alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/nightly-composes/desktop/desktop-x86_64-20100810.15.iso > >> > - it is too large to fit on the CD. > >> > >> This is the "Green Age" what are you doing wasting a CD? Mother earth > > I love mother earth http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EC5XgyrzSt0 :) > > >> frowns on you. Be kind and reuse your ISO by installing via the network. > > My network is too slow for net install of full desktop. I'm using CD-RW > > >> I'd recommend a USB drive but I think that is still broken. > >> -- > >> devel mailing list > >> devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > >> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel > > > > Keep the greening politics to yourself please > > I think it's right to recall from time to time others about caring for > the environment > > Regards, > M > -- > devel mailing list > devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel > Political discussion is EXTREMELY off topic and will cause flame wars. Environmental talk is politics, especially the stuff you're bringing up with video links. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
W dniu 11 sierpnia 2010 17:37 użytkownik Brandon Lozza napisał: > Political discussion is EXTREMELY off topic and will cause flame wars. > Environmental talk is politics, especially the stuff you're bringing up with > video links. Sorry, I did not know that the music here evokes holy wars ;) Regards, M -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
Brandon Lozza on 08/11/2010 10:13 AM wrote: > Keep the greening politics to yourself please So that there are no further misunderstands or continuation of this tangent - I was being sarcastic. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
On 11/08/10 16:37, Brandon Lozza wrote: > > Political discussion is EXTREMELY off topic and will cause flame wars. > Environmental talk is politics, especially the stuff you're bringing up > with video links. > Actually power-saving was a feature of Fedora and Linux in general iirc. Common sence existed long before "Green" became a political word, I aggre with you that political\politics is ot. But I would mabye advise those usind CDs' for testiing to use DVD-RW in various shades, as testing.iso may be oversized for varying reasons. That is not politics, it's using the litte grey matter left, along with saving some blaas. -- Regards, Frank Murphy UTF_8 Encoded Friend of Fedora -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
On Wed, 2010-08-11 at 10:03 -0500, Michael Cronenworth wrote: > Michał Piotrowski on 08/11/2010 09:28 AM wrote: > > I > > downloadedhttp://alt.fedoraproject.org/pub/alt/nightly-composes/desktop/desktop-x86_64-20100810.15.iso > > - it is too large to fit on the CD. > > This is the "Green Age" what are you doing wasting a CD? Mother earth > frowns on you. Be kind and reuse your ISO by installing via the network. > I'd recommend a USB drive but I think that is still broken. ? Not AFAIK. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: [Test-Announce] Fedora 14 Alpha RC3 Available Now!
Jared K. Smith said the following on 08/11/2010 06:15 AM Pacific Time: > On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 1:01 AM, Adam Williamson wrote: >> Thanks, Andre! Everyone please note we have the go/no-go meeting for >> Alpha release tomorrow afternoon at 5pm Eastern time, so we really >> *really* need as much testing as possible by then. > > I have the Go/No-Go meeting in my calendar as Thursday, August 12, > 2010, @ 12:00 AM UTC ( *20:00 EDT/17:00 PDT, > Wednesday, August 11, 2010* ). I just want to make sure we're all on > the same schedule here. > > -- > Jared Smith > Fedora Project Leader The correct time for this meeting is: Thursday, August 12, 2010, @ 12:00 AM UTC In other words, if you are in the USA, it will happen TODAY at: 20:00 Eastern or 17:00 Pacific John p.s. Sorry for the confusion as realize this contradicts the time that was on the detailed schedule. Hopefully the three extra hours helps :) -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
