Re: Gnome-shell workspaces
Trond Hasle Amundsen wrote: > Christopher Meng writes: > >> Somewhat funny that many users even don't know this tweak tool and ask >> everywhere about this.. > > I always found it odd that gnome-tweak-tool even exists.. some > functionality are found in the system settings, some in > gnome-tweak-tool. If you ask me, gnome-tweak-tool should be part of the > standard system settings. Call it "advanced shell options" or > something. It would be easier for users to find, provide a more > consistent GNOME experience, and ultimately happier users. The point of having the Tweak Tool is to provide an enhanced experience for those users who do want to tweak, while maintaining a sane set of options for those people who don't have an interest in customisation. I would personally love to see the Tweak Tool grow to become more comprehensive and interesting. There are no limits on what can be included there. This freedom of expansion is something you would never have with System Settings - there simply isn't space for everything you would want to include. I'd also like to see a Theme Tool or similar for those people who want to play around with themes. Having dedicated applications for these types of activities should allow a far better experience than lumping everything into the control center. System Settings simply isn't a good fit for this (the old GNOME 2 appearance settings were never great; compare them with something like Windows Blinds [1] and you'll see what having a dedicated application means in terms of quality of experience). Part of the issue here is that the Tweak Tool doesn't get a huge amount of developer time, which means that the value of having a separate tool hasn't been quite realised. If anyone wants to help with this, just step up. It's a simple Python app, and the maintainer is usually responsive. Allan [1] http://www.stardock.com/products/windowblinds/ -- IRC: aday on irc.gnome.org Blog: http://afaikblog.wordpress.com/ -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Gnome-shell workspaces
Hi On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 9:09 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote: > I think settings should be made available to the user, but not in a > half-assed "tweak tool". That's what the settings dialog is for. > We understand that is your view point and it is fine to hold that view point and as a KDE maintainer in Fedora, we can all understand where you are coming from but repeatedly insisting that it is the only view valid view is not going to accomplish much and just creates unnecessarily friction. Please move on Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Gnome-shell workspaces
Martin Sourada wrote: > I don't think that's what he is trying to tell. I believe it's: either > expose the setting, or don't have the setting. The middle way is > broken, be it semi-official tweak tool or even worse "advanced" tab. > Especially if the tweak tool is for settings that are expected to be > broken, unsupported or eating kitties. Actually, I think not having the setting at all is no better (in fact, it's worse). I think settings should be made available to the user, but not in a half-assed "tweak tool". That's what the settings dialog is for. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Gnome-shell workspaces
On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 19:31:42 -0800 Adam Williamson wrote: > Kevin, you work on a desktop which sufficiently represents your > views. I think we're all aware that if we want fifteen thousand > settings in the control panel, we can run KDE. Do you really believe > you're going to convince the GNOME developers to turn GNOME into KDE > with posts like the above? If not, what's the point of writing them? > What do you expect your post to achieve? I don't think that's what he is trying to tell. I believe it's: either expose the setting, or don't have the setting. The middle way is broken, be it semi-official tweak tool or even worse "advanced" tab. Especially if the tweak tool is for settings that are expected to be broken, unsupported or eating kitties. I mean, what's behind the idea of having an unsupported, half-broken switch in a *stable* release in the first place? If you don't support it, or it isn't finished, why it's in the stable release? If it's supported and finished, why it isn't visible? The most *I* can understand is: "we have implemented this setting, because we think it's important, the setting is supported and it isn't eating kitties, but we don't know yet how to properly expose it in UI". But Olav seems to suggest otherwise and that's probably what Kevin responds to. Martin signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Gnome-shell workspaces
On 10/02/13 06:03 AM, Kevin Kofler wrote: Olav Vitters wrote: This has been addressed various times. In brief: Advanced buttons do not work. They'll be clicked every time. Tweak tool provides a different guarantee of stability. For instance: if you change an option in System Settings and it results in a bug it must be fixed asap. At the same time, the sloppy focus option in Tweak tool is known to have issues. And to avoid misunderstandings: sloppy focus has less issues with every release. Having a separate "tweak tool" is a lame workaround for lack of settings in the official tools. The only reason such "tweak tools" exist on proprietary operating systems is because the proprietary companies don't want to officially support some functionality, so you need a third-party tool to enable the hidden settings. Having an "official tweak tool" is really really silly. Kevin, you work on a desktop which sufficiently represents your views. I think we're all aware that if we want fifteen thousand settings in the control panel, we can run KDE. Do you really believe you're going to convince the GNOME developers to turn GNOME into KDE with posts like the above? If not, what's the point of writing them? What do you expect your post to achieve? -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Gnome-shell workspaces
On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 11:20:04PM +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote: > Olav Vitters wrote: > > PS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tweak_UI > > It was written by one individual employee and released as an unsupported > tool. It'd have been a third-party tool if the author didn't happen to be an > M$ employee. GNOME tweak tool was written by one developer and released as a unsupported tool. It'd would have been an unsupported tool if we didn't change our mind based on user feedback. The settings itself still might expose bugs. Pretty much the same as same as what happened with tweak UI? M$ is boring btw, use MS or Microsoft. -- Regards, Olav -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Gnome-shell workspaces
On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 11:18:09PM +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Olav Vitters wrote:
> > I don't get why you reply to me. It seems anything people do is just
> > bad.
> >
> > No tweak tool: bad
> > A tweak tool: bad
>
> Strawman…
>
> What I actually mean is:
> Completely hidden or absent settings ("no tweak tool"): bad
> Settings hidden in a tweak tool: bad
> Settings available and exposed in the normal settings dialog: good
That is exactly what I mean: I explained why it is not in the main
dialog. The setting is available. There is a GUI. Still bad, has to be
done in yet another way.
For instance:
"Settings hidden in a tweak tool": Those settings aren't hidden.
There was a nice post by a developer at Microsoft on settings. First
there would be a request for a setting. Eventually it would be added to
the registry. Then exposed somewhere else. Eventually in the main
program. Every step hugely increases the amount of work that has to be
done. I tried finding the blogpost, but very unfortunately could not.
> > If the only thing you can do is complain about the work that other
> > people do, find another hobby or something.
>
> This ad hominem attack deserves no reply.
You call ad hominem and strawman way too quickly. Suggest not claiming
stuff like "Settings hidden in a tweak tool", as that is just not true.
I could look up what term is used for that, but cannot be bothered.
--
Regards,
Olav
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Re: Gnome-shell workspaces
On Sun, 2013-02-10 at 15:03 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote: > Olav Vitters wrote: > > This has been addressed various times. In brief: Advanced buttons do not > > work. They'll be clicked every time. Tweak tool provides a different > > guarantee of stability. For instance: if you change an option in System > > Settings and it results in a bug it must be fixed asap. At the same > > time, the sloppy focus option in Tweak tool is known to have issues. And > > to avoid misunderstandings: sloppy focus has less issues with every > > release. > > Having a separate "tweak tool" is a lame workaround for lack of settings in > the official tools. The only reason such "tweak tools" exist on proprietary > operating systems is because the proprietary companies don't want to > officially support some functionality, Well, that's pretty much the case here. People providing tweaks for underlying settings that shouldn't be there, buttons and tweaks that are usually broken, untested, and unsupported. > so you need a third-party tool to > enable the hidden settings. Having an "official tweak tool" is really really > silly. It's not so much official as de facto. The settings maintainers don't spend their time on it. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Gnome-shell workspaces
I wrote:
> Olav Vitters wrote:
>> I don't get why you reply to me. It seems anything people do is just
>> bad.
>>
>> No tweak tool: bad
>> A tweak tool: bad
>
> Strawman…
>
> What I actually mean is:
> Completely hidden or absent settings ("no tweak tool"): bad
> Settings hidden in a tweak tool: bad
> Settings available and exposed in the normal settings dialog: good
PS: See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma .
Kevin Kofler
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Re: Gnome-shell workspaces
Olav Vitters wrote: > PS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tweak_UI It was written by one individual employee and released as an unsupported tool. It'd have been a third-party tool if the author didn't happen to be an M$ employee. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Gnome-shell workspaces
Olav Vitters wrote:
> I don't get why you reply to me. It seems anything people do is just
> bad.
>
> No tweak tool: bad
> A tweak tool: bad
Strawman…
What I actually mean is:
Completely hidden or absent settings ("no tweak tool"): bad
Settings hidden in a tweak tool: bad
Settings available and exposed in the normal settings dialog: good
> If the only thing you can do is complain about the work that other
> people do, find another hobby or something.
This ad hominem attack deserves no reply.
Kevin Kofler
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Re: Gnome-shell workspaces
On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 01:30:29PM +0100, Mario Torre wrote: > This argument doesn't really work, either. Care to provide any argumentation? At the moment if that were true, I'd could just refer to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_pot_calling_the_kettle_black But actually I explained myself. You're not. -- Regards, Olav -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Gnome-shell workspaces
On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 01:30:02PM +0100, Mario Torre wrote: > Il giorno dom, 10/02/2013 alle 14.47 +0100, Olav Vitters ha scritto: > > On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 01:28:54PM +0100, Trond Hasle Amundsen wrote: > > > Christopher Meng writes: > > > > > > > Somewhat funny that many users even don't know this tweak tool and ask > > > > everywhere about this.. > > > > > > I always found it odd that gnome-tweak-tool even exists.. some > > > functionality are found in the system settings, some in > > > gnome-tweak-tool. If you ask me, gnome-tweak-tool should be part of the > > > standard system settings. Call it "advanced shell options" or > > > something. It would be easier for users to find, provide a more > > > consistent GNOME experience, and ultimately happier users. > > > > This has been addressed various times. In brief: Advanced buttons do not > > work. They'll be clicked every time. Tweak tool provides a different > > guarantee of stability. For instance: if you change an option in System > > Settings and it results in a bug it must be fixed asap. > > This argument is foo bar. If advanced buttons would be clicked any > time... then it means users *want* to tweak those features, they should > be integrated in the core preferences. Why should I ever need to install > a separate tool to fix my font settings or to add back buttons to the > otherwise useless and space wasting window bar? Just try to explain the following: - How does someone know if something is in Advanced or not? > Gnome 3 is not an experimental desktop anymore, it's been around for > some time and it's the default desktop in Fedora... it's about time to > fix it [1]. Very vague statement? Help welcome :) -- Regards, Olav -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Gnome-shell workspaces
Il giorno dom, 10/02/2013 alle 14.47 +0100, Olav Vitters ha scritto: > On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 01:28:54PM +0100, Trond Hasle Amundsen wrote: > > Christopher Meng writes: > > > > > Somewhat funny that many users even don't know this tweak tool and ask > > > everywhere about this.. > > > > I always found it odd that gnome-tweak-tool even exists.. some > > functionality are found in the system settings, some in > > gnome-tweak-tool. If you ask me, gnome-tweak-tool should be part of the > > standard system settings. Call it "advanced shell options" or > > something. It would be easier for users to find, provide a more > > consistent GNOME experience, and ultimately happier users. > > This has been addressed various times. In brief: Advanced buttons do not > work. They'll be clicked every time. Tweak tool provides a different > guarantee of stability. For instance: if you change an option in System > Settings and it results in a bug it must be fixed asap. This argument is foo bar. If advanced buttons would be clicked any time... then it means users *want* to tweak those features, they should be integrated in the core preferences. Why should I ever need to install a separate tool to fix my font settings or to add back buttons to the otherwise useless and space wasting window bar? Gnome 3 is not an experimental desktop anymore, it's been around for some time and it's the default desktop in Fedora... it's about time to fix it [1]. Cheers, Mario [1] This is my opinion, at least. And note, this is not to flame. I do like *some* features of Gnome 3 more than any other desktop, it has great potential, I just think it's greatly unexpressed. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Gnome-shell workspaces
Il giorno lun, 11/02/2013 alle 11.12 +0100, Olav Vitters ha scritto: > On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 03:03:44PM +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote: > > Having a separate "tweak tool" is a lame workaround for lack of settings in > > the official tools. The only reason such "tweak tools" exist on proprietary > > operating systems is because the proprietary companies don't want to > > officially support some functionality, so you need a third-party tool to > > enable the hidden settings. Having an "official tweak tool" is really > > really > > silly. > > I don't get why you reply to me. It seems anything people do is just > bad. > > No tweak tool: bad > A tweak tool: bad > > If the only thing you can do is complain about the work that other > people do, find another hobby or something. This argument doesn't really work, either. Cheers, Mario -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Gnome-shell workspaces
On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 11:12:32AM +0100, Olav Vitters wrote: > On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 03:03:44PM +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote: > > Having a separate "tweak tool" is a lame workaround for lack of settings in > > the official tools. The only reason such "tweak tools" exist on proprietary > > operating systems is because the proprietary companies don't want to > > officially support some functionality, so you need a third-party tool to > > enable the hidden settings. Having an "official tweak tool" is really > > really > > silly. > > I don't get why you reply to me. It seems anything people do is just > bad. > > No tweak tool: bad > A tweak tool: bad > > If the only thing you can do is complain about the work that other > people do, find another hobby or something. PS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tweak_UI -- Regards, Olav -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Gnome-shell workspaces
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 03:03:44PM +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote: > Having a separate "tweak tool" is a lame workaround for lack of settings in > the official tools. The only reason such "tweak tools" exist on proprietary > operating systems is because the proprietary companies don't want to > officially support some functionality, so you need a third-party tool to > enable the hidden settings. Having an "official tweak tool" is really really > silly. I don't get why you reply to me. It seems anything people do is just bad. No tweak tool: bad A tweak tool: bad If the only thing you can do is complain about the work that other people do, find another hobby or something. -- Regards, Olav -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Gnome-shell workspaces
Olav Vitters writes: >>> Somewhat funny that many users even don't know this tweak tool and ask >>> everywhere about this.. >> >> I always found it odd that gnome-tweak-tool even exists.. some >> functionality are found in the system settings, some in >> gnome-tweak-tool. If you ask me, gnome-tweak-tool should be part of the >> standard system settings. Call it "advanced shell options" or >> something. It would be easier for users to find, provide a more >> consistent GNOME experience, and ultimately happier users. > > This has been addressed various times. In brief: Advanced buttons do not > work. They'll be clicked every time. Tweak tool provides a different > guarantee of stability. For instance: if you change an option in System > Settings and it results in a bug it must be fixed asap. At the same > time, the sloppy focus option in Tweak tool is known to have issues. And > to avoid misunderstandings: sloppy focus has less issues with every > release. Ok, I see the point, and thanks for the explanation. I did suspect that some of the idea behind gnome-tweak-tool is providing features and options that aren't stable enough to exist in system settings. Like a collection of beta features. Would we then see features being eventually moved from tweak-tool to system settings, as they are deemed stable and mostly bug-free? Cheers, -- Trond H. Amundsen Center for Information Technology Services, University of Oslo -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Gnome-shell workspaces
Olav Vitters wrote: > This has been addressed various times. In brief: Advanced buttons do not > work. They'll be clicked every time. Tweak tool provides a different > guarantee of stability. For instance: if you change an option in System > Settings and it results in a bug it must be fixed asap. At the same > time, the sloppy focus option in Tweak tool is known to have issues. And > to avoid misunderstandings: sloppy focus has less issues with every > release. Having a separate "tweak tool" is a lame workaround for lack of settings in the official tools. The only reason such "tweak tools" exist on proprietary operating systems is because the proprietary companies don't want to officially support some functionality, so you need a third-party tool to enable the hidden settings. Having an "official tweak tool" is really really silly. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Gnome-shell workspaces
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 01:28:54PM +0100, Trond Hasle Amundsen wrote: > Christopher Meng writes: > > > Somewhat funny that many users even don't know this tweak tool and ask > > everywhere about this.. > > I always found it odd that gnome-tweak-tool even exists.. some > functionality are found in the system settings, some in > gnome-tweak-tool. If you ask me, gnome-tweak-tool should be part of the > standard system settings. Call it "advanced shell options" or > something. It would be easier for users to find, provide a more > consistent GNOME experience, and ultimately happier users. This has been addressed various times. In brief: Advanced buttons do not work. They'll be clicked every time. Tweak tool provides a different guarantee of stability. For instance: if you change an option in System Settings and it results in a bug it must be fixed asap. At the same time, the sloppy focus option in Tweak tool is known to have issues. And to avoid misunderstandings: sloppy focus has less issues with every release. -- Regards, Olav -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Gnome-shell workspaces
Christopher Meng writes: > Somewhat funny that many users even don't know this tweak tool and ask > everywhere about this.. I always found it odd that gnome-tweak-tool even exists.. some functionality are found in the system settings, some in gnome-tweak-tool. If you ask me, gnome-tweak-tool should be part of the standard system settings. Call it "advanced shell options" or something. It would be easier for users to find, provide a more consistent GNOME experience, and ultimately happier users. Cheers, -- Trond H. Amundsen Center for Information Technology Services, University of Oslo -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Gnome-shell workspaces (Was Re: Proposed F19 Feature: Cinnamon as Default Desktop)
On Sunday, February 10, 2013, Samuel Sieb wrote: ＞ As an aside, when I first saw gnome-shell, I thought it would be horrible to use. But after a while of using it, finding gnome-tweak-tool, and installing a couple of extensions, I've been quite happy with it. I actually think it's more keyboard friendly than Gnome 2 was. Somewhat funny that many users even don't know this tweak tool and ask everywhere about this.. -- *Yours sincerely,* *Christopher Meng* Got problems with Windows? - ReBoot Got problems with Linux? - Be Root Ambassador/Contributor of Fedora Project and many others. http://cicku.me -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
