Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
I've been trying unsuccessfully for a long to time to try to get this discussion started. Perhaps this just isn't right place? If not, where? -- Orion Poplawski Technical Manager 303-415-9701 x222 NWRA/CoRA DivisionFAX: 303-415-9702 3380 Mitchell Lane or...@cora.nwra.com Boulder, CO 80301 http://www.cora.nwra.com -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On Mon, 2010-10-04 at 10:48 -0600, Orion Poplawski wrote: > I've been trying unsuccessfully for a long to time to try to get this > discussion started. Perhaps this just isn't right place? If not, where? It's as good a place as any. The X and desktop developers are the people who can actually fix it, though, if you can't provide patches. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On 10/4/2010 4:40 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Mon, 2010-10-04 at 10:48 -0600, Orion Poplawski wrote: >> I've been trying unsuccessfully for a long to time to try to get this >> discussion started. Perhaps this just isn't right place? If not, where? > It's as good a place as any. The X and desktop developers are the people > who can actually fix it, though, if you can't provide patches. The big question still seems to be who needs to be responsible for deciding what video outputs are active by default in a system. Previously this appears to have been the responsibility of the various X drivers who appear to have gotten out of that business because it is a hard problem and probably because much of that has moved to the kernel with KMS. But nothing has come in to replace it (that I am aware of), and so various bugs are being filed against various components (kernel, X, kdm/gdm). Hopefully it could be done in a central enough way to avoid every desktop environment having to implement it individually (which was a problem faced by the various X drivers I imagine). So, where does this need to happen? The kernel is the most central and now holds KMS stuff, but perhaps not a kind home to this kind of hacky stuff. plymouth is at least DE agnostic, but still distribution specific. Udev rule? Are we really stuck with gdm/kdm/lxdm/...dm implementing it? - Orion -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On 5 October 2010 05:30, Orion Poplawski wrote: > Are we really stuck with gdm/kdm/lxdm/...dm > implementing it? No, I think what we need to do is to teach GPM how to turn off the internal panel when docked and with the lid closed. The only missing piece is for the kernel to export some kind of sysfs boolean saying "in-dock". From talks with mjg59, detecting a dock is pretty hard. Richard. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On 10/05/2010 10:35 AM, Richard Hughes wrote: > No, I think what we need to do is to teach GPM how to turn off the > internal panel when docked and with the lid closed. The only missing > piece is for the kernel to export some kind of sysfs boolean saying > "in-dock". From talks with mjg59, detecting a dock is pretty hard. Sorry for my may be naive question: Why do we need to know if we are docked or not. Isn't there exactly the same situation if the external Monitor is directly connected to the laptop? If there is an external monitor and the lid is closed don't we want to switch off the display regardless whether there is a docking station involved or not? Florian -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On 5 October 2010 09:55, FlorianFesti wrote: > Sorry for my may be naive question: Why do we need to know if we are > docked or not. Isn't there exactly the same situation if the external > Monitor is directly connected to the laptop? If there is an external > monitor and the lid is closed don't we want to switch off the display > regardless whether there is a docking station involved or not? Well, I guess some people would want the laptop to suspend, but it's a very good question. Now all it needs is someone willing and able to write a little patch for me :-) Richard. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Richard Hughes wrote: > On 5 October 2010 09:55, FlorianFesti wrote: >> Sorry for my may be naive question: Why do we need to know if we are >> docked or not. Isn't there exactly the same situation if the external >> Monitor is directly connected to the laptop? If there is an external >> monitor and the lid is closed don't we want to switch off the display >> regardless whether there is a docking station involved or not? > > Well, I guess some people would want the laptop to suspend, but it's a > very good question. Now all it needs is someone willing and able to > write a little patch for me :-) For the Dell docking stations at least there is a power button on the dock and the general way they are used (in that this is the way it works with Windows) is that if the power button on the dock is used and the lid is closed (power button is above the keyboard) it uses the external monitor. I've no idea if its possible to differentiate which botton is used. This is the case in our off with Dell D series and E series Latitude and HP dock capable laptops. Peter -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On 05/10/10 05:00 AM, Peter Robinson wrote: > On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Richard Hughes wrote: >> On 5 October 2010 09:55, FlorianFesti wrote: >>> Sorry for my may be naive question: Why do we need to know if we are >>> docked or not. Isn't there exactly the same situation if the external >>> Monitor is directly connected to the laptop? If there is an external >>> monitor and the lid is closed don't we want to switch off the display >>> regardless whether there is a docking station involved or not? >> Well, I guess some people would want the laptop to suspend, but it's a >> very good question. Now all it needs is someone willing and able to >> write a little patch for me :-) > > For the Dell docking stations at least there is a power button on the > dock and the general way they are used (in that this is the way it > works with Windows) is that if the power button on the dock is used > and the lid is closed (power button is above the keyboard) it uses the > external monitor. I've no idea if its possible to differentiate which > botton is used. This is the case in our off with Dell D series and E > series Latitude and HP dock capable laptops. There's also the case used quite often in my company with Dell docking stations, where the lid is open and the user uses both external and internal display in multi-monitor setup. Another case, used more often, is two external monitors connected to the dock and closed lid in multi-monitor setup. Regards, Dariusz -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On 10/05/2010 09:02 AM, Dariusz J. Garbowski wrote: > On 05/10/10 05:00 AM, Peter Robinson wrote: >> On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Richard Hughes wrote: >>> On 5 October 2010 09:55, FlorianFesti wrote: Sorry for my may be naive question: Why do we need to know if we are docked or not. Isn't there exactly the same situation if the external Monitor is directly connected to the laptop? If there is an external monitor and the lid is closed don't we want to switch off the display regardless whether there is a docking station involved or not? >>> Well, I guess some people would want the laptop to suspend, but it's a >>> very good question. Now all it needs is someone willing and able to >>> write a little patch for me :-) >> >> For the Dell docking stations at least there is a power button on the >> dock and the general way they are used (in that this is the way it >> works with Windows) is that if the power button on the dock is used >> and the lid is closed (power button is above the keyboard) it uses the >> external monitor. I've no idea if its possible to differentiate which >> botton is used. This is the case in our off with Dell D series and E >> series Latitude and HP dock capable laptops. > > There's also the case used quite often in my company with Dell docking > stations, where > the lid is open and the user uses both external and internal display in > multi-monitor setup. > Another case, used more often, is two external monitors connected to the dock > and closed lid > in multi-monitor setup. The good news is that I'm pretty sure the "dock" is irrelevant (other than "are we on battery power") in all those cases. The only thing that matters is which outputs are connected and what happens when the lid is closed. This seems like a cut-and-dry GPM policy issue. Nathaniel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On 05/10/10 07:09 AM, Nathaniel McCallum wrote: > On 10/05/2010 09:02 AM, Dariusz J. Garbowski wrote: >> On 05/10/10 05:00 AM, Peter Robinson wrote: >>> On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Richard Hughes wrote: On 5 October 2010 09:55, FlorianFesti wrote: > Sorry for my may be naive question: Why do we need to know if we are > docked or not. Isn't there exactly the same situation if the external > Monitor is directly connected to the laptop? If there is an external > monitor and the lid is closed don't we want to switch off the display > regardless whether there is a docking station involved or not? Well, I guess some people would want the laptop to suspend, but it's a very good question. Now all it needs is someone willing and able to write a little patch for me :-) >>> For the Dell docking stations at least there is a power button on the >>> dock and the general way they are used (in that this is the way it >>> works with Windows) is that if the power button on the dock is used >>> and the lid is closed (power button is above the keyboard) it uses the >>> external monitor. I've no idea if its possible to differentiate which >>> botton is used. This is the case in our off with Dell D series and E >>> series Latitude and HP dock capable laptops. >> There's also the case used quite often in my company with Dell docking >> stations, where >> the lid is open and the user uses both external and internal display in >> multi-monitor setup. >> Another case, used more often, is two external monitors connected to the >> dock and closed lid >> in multi-monitor setup. > > The good news is that I'm pretty sure the "dock" is irrelevant (other > than "are we on battery power") in all those cases. The only thing that > matters is which outputs are connected and what happens when the lid is > closed. This seems like a cut-and-dry GPM policy issue. What about the case where "we are on battery power" and a projector or external monitor connected to the VGA port, no dock (with lid either open or closed for single or multi-monitor setup)? Dariusz -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On 10/05/2010 09:12 AM, Dariusz J. Garbowski wrote: > On 05/10/10 07:09 AM, Nathaniel McCallum wrote: >> On 10/05/2010 09:02 AM, Dariusz J. Garbowski wrote: >>> On 05/10/10 05:00 AM, Peter Robinson wrote: On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Richard Hughes wrote: > On 5 October 2010 09:55, FlorianFesti wrote: >> Sorry for my may be naive question: Why do we need to know if we are >> docked or not. Isn't there exactly the same situation if the external >> Monitor is directly connected to the laptop? If there is an external >> monitor and the lid is closed don't we want to switch off the display >> regardless whether there is a docking station involved or not? > Well, I guess some people would want the laptop to suspend, but it's a > very good question. Now all it needs is someone willing and able to > write a little patch for me :-) For the Dell docking stations at least there is a power button on the dock and the general way they are used (in that this is the way it works with Windows) is that if the power button on the dock is used and the lid is closed (power button is above the keyboard) it uses the external monitor. I've no idea if its possible to differentiate which botton is used. This is the case in our off with Dell D series and E series Latitude and HP dock capable laptops. >>> There's also the case used quite often in my company with Dell >>> docking stations, where >>> the lid is open and the user uses both external and internal display >>> in multi-monitor setup. >>> Another case, used more often, is two external monitors connected to >>> the dock and closed lid >>> in multi-monitor setup. >> >> The good news is that I'm pretty sure the "dock" is irrelevant (other >> than "are we on battery power") in all those cases. The only thing that >> matters is which outputs are connected and what happens when the lid is >> closed. This seems like a cut-and-dry GPM policy issue. > > What about the case where "we are on battery power" and a projector or > external monitor connected > to the VGA port, no dock (with lid either open or closed for single or > multi-monitor setup)? If the lid is open, both output should be enabled by default (you are free to manually disable one). If the lid is closed on battery power the system should suspend (unless you choose otherwise in GPM prefs). Nathaniel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On 10/05/2010 03:15 PM, Nathaniel McCallum wrote: > If the lid is open, both output should be enabled by default (you are > free to manually disable one). If the lid is closed on battery power > the system should suspend (unless you choose otherwise in GPM prefs). > I wonder if there are latops that can be booted with lid closed and that make a subtle sematic difference between the lid was just being closed and is lid was already closed when we booted up. Florian -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
2010/10/5 Florian Festi: > I wonder if there are latops that can be booted with lid closed and that > make a subtle sematic difference between the lid was just being closed > and is lid was already closed when we booted up. IBM ThinkPad T23. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On 10/05/2010 11:21 AM, Christoph Frieben wrote: > 2010/10/5 Florian Festi: >> I wonder if there are latops that can be booted with lid closed and that >> make a subtle sematic difference between the lid was just being closed >> and is lid was already closed when we booted up. > > IBM ThinkPad T23. Actually, pretty much any laptop in a dock can be booted with the lid down. It doesn't make any difference since the laptop screen should still be off. Nathaniel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On 10/05/2010 02:35 AM, Richard Hughes wrote: > On 5 October 2010 05:30, Orion Poplawski wrote: >> Are we really stuck with gdm/kdm/lxdm/...dm >> implementing it? > > No, I think what we need to do is to teach GPM how to turn off the > internal panel when docked and with the lid closed. The only missing > piece is for the kernel to export some kind of sysfs boolean saying > "in-dock". From talks with mjg59, detecting a dock is pretty hard. > > Richard. By GPM I'm guessing you mean gnome-power-manager? So each desktop environment needs to implement this? Does gpm run before login so that it is configured properly at login time? Who's needs handle it for KDE, LXDE, XFCE, etc.? -- Orion Poplawski Technical Manager 303-415-9701 x222 NWRA/CoRA DivisionFAX: 303-415-9702 3380 Mitchell Lane or...@cora.nwra.com Boulder, CO 80301 http://www.cora.nwra.com -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On Tue, 2010-10-05 at 09:35 +0100, Richard Hughes wrote: > On 5 October 2010 05:30, Orion Poplawski wrote: > > Are we really stuck with gdm/kdm/lxdm/...dm > > implementing it? > > No, I think what we need to do is to teach GPM how to turn off the > internal panel when docked and with the lid closed. The only missing > piece is for the kernel to export some kind of sysfs boolean saying > "in-dock". From talks with mjg59, detecting a dock is pretty hard. Maybe just 'lid closed and external monitor connected' would be close enough? Is there a use case where you'd want to have an external monitor connected and the internal system's lid closed, but still have the internal system's display turned on? -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On 10/05/2010 11:53 AM, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Tue, 2010-10-05 at 09:35 +0100, Richard Hughes wrote: >> On 5 October 2010 05:30, Orion Poplawski wrote: >>> Are we really stuck with gdm/kdm/lxdm/...dm >>> implementing it? >> >> No, I think what we need to do is to teach GPM how to turn off the >> internal panel when docked and with the lid closed. The only missing >> piece is for the kernel to export some kind of sysfs boolean saying >> "in-dock". From talks with mjg59, detecting a dock is pretty hard. > > Maybe just 'lid closed and external monitor connected' would be close > enough? Is there a use case where you'd want to have an external monitor > connected and the internal system's lid closed, but still have the > internal system's display turned on? FYI, doing so could damage the laptop. Nathaniel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On 10/05/2010 09:53 AM, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Tue, 2010-10-05 at 09:35 +0100, Richard Hughes wrote: >> On 5 October 2010 05:30, Orion Poplawski wrote: >>> Are we really stuck with gdm/kdm/lxdm/...dm >>> implementing it? >> >> No, I think what we need to do is to teach GPM how to turn off the >> internal panel when docked and with the lid closed. The only missing >> piece is for the kernel to export some kind of sysfs boolean saying >> "in-dock". From talks with mjg59, detecting a dock is pretty hard. > > Maybe just 'lid closed and external monitor connected' would be close > enough? Is there a use case where you'd want to have an external monitor > connected and the internal system's lid closed, but still have the > internal system's display turned on? Yeah, I think this is the main issue. It can cause two problems: - The login screen appears on the laptop screen (which is closed) - New windows or the desktop toolbar appear on the laptop screen (which is closed) I think the fun will come from systems that don't properly report their lid status. I think this is one of the complaints from the X developers. -- Orion Poplawski Technical Manager 303-415-9701 x222 NWRA/CoRA DivisionFAX: 303-415-9702 3380 Mitchell Lane or...@cora.nwra.com Boulder, CO 80301 http://www.cora.nwra.com -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On Tue, 2010-10-05 at 09:59 -0600, Orion Poplawski wrote: > Yeah, I think this is the main issue. It can cause two problems: > > - The login screen appears on the laptop screen (which is closed) > - New windows or the desktop toolbar appear on the laptop screen (which is > closed) > > I think the fun will come from systems that don't properly report their lid > status. I think this is one of the complaints from the X developers. *shrug* those are separate bugs we can fix once we make the actual behaviour correct. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 08:53:12AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > Maybe just 'lid closed and external monitor connected' would be close > enough? Is there a use case where you'd want to have an external monitor > connected and the internal system's lid closed, but still have the > internal system's display turned on? No, but there is a use case where you'd want to have an external monitor connected and the system report that the lid is closed, but still have the internal system's display turned on. Hardware lies. -- Matthew Garrett | mj...@srcf.ucam.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 10:19:04AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Tue, 2010-10-05 at 09:59 -0600, Orion Poplawski wrote: > > I think the fun will come from systems that don't properly report their lid > > status. I think this is one of the complaints from the X developers. > > *shrug* those are separate bugs we can fix once we make the actual > behaviour correct. Bugs where we turn off people's displays when they're trying to use them are things that we should address at the start of the development process, not the end. -- Matthew Garrett | mj...@srcf.ucam.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On Tue, 2010-10-05 at 19:05 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote: > On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 08:53:12AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > Maybe just 'lid closed and external monitor connected' would be close > > enough? Is there a use case where you'd want to have an external monitor > > connected and the internal system's lid closed, but still have the > > internal system's display turned on? > > No, but there is a use case where you'd want to have an external monitor > connected and the system report that the lid is closed, but still have > the internal system's display turned on. Hardware lies. that is a hardware/kernel/acpi bug. The appropriate way to fix it, IMHO, is to have the sensor report the correct information if it's at all possible to fix it in the kernel/acpi layer, or if not, blacklist that specific system so that its lid sensor is completely ignored. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On 10/05/2010 02:16 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Tue, 2010-10-05 at 19:05 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote: >> On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 08:53:12AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: >> >>> Maybe just 'lid closed and external monitor connected' would be close >>> enough? Is there a use case where you'd want to have an external monitor >>> connected and the internal system's lid closed, but still have the >>> internal system's display turned on? >> >> No, but there is a use case where you'd want to have an external monitor >> connected and the system report that the lid is closed, but still have >> the internal system's display turned on. Hardware lies. > > that is a hardware/kernel/acpi bug. The appropriate way to fix it, IMHO, > is to have the sensor report the correct information if it's at all > possible to fix it in the kernel/acpi layer, or if not, blacklist that > specific system so that its lid sensor is completely ignored. Agreed, the hardware may lie, but the kernel is the arbiter of truth, at least in this case. Nathaniel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On Tue, 2010-10-05 at 19:07 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote: > On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 10:19:04AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > > On Tue, 2010-10-05 at 09:59 -0600, Orion Poplawski wrote: > > > I think the fun will come from systems that don't properly report their > > > lid > > > status. I think this is one of the complaints from the X developers. > > > > *shrug* those are separate bugs we can fix once we make the actual > > behaviour correct. > > Bugs where we turn off people's displays when they're trying to use them > are things that we should address at the start of the development > process, not the end. don't we already have default behaviours based on the lid switch, anyway? So why don't we have this problem with those? IIRC, we default to suspending the system when the lid is closed on battery power - so are we suspending people's systems at random, if those systems have lying lid switches? -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 11:16:44AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Tue, 2010-10-05 at 19:05 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote: > > No, but there is a use case where you'd want to have an external monitor > > connected and the system report that the lid is closed, but still have > > the internal system's display turned on. Hardware lies. > > that is a hardware/kernel/acpi bug. The appropriate way to fix it, IMHO, > is to have the sensor report the correct information if it's at all > possible to fix it in the kernel/acpi layer, or if not, blacklist that > specific system so that its lid sensor is completely ignored. I wholeheartedly agree, providing that we can obtain a list of every piece of hardware that has this issue, along with a list of every piece of hardware that will have it in future. If that's not available then userspace is just going to have to deal. -- Matthew Garrett | mj...@srcf.ucam.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 11:18:32AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > don't we already have default behaviours based on the lid switch, > anyway? So why don't we have this problem with those? IIRC, we default > to suspending the system when the lid is closed on battery power - so > are we suspending people's systems at random, if those systems have > lying lid switches? Because we only do that on lid state transitions. -- Matthew Garrett | mj...@srcf.ucam.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On 10/05/2010 12:18 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Tue, 2010-10-05 at 19:07 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote: >> On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 10:19:04AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: >>> On Tue, 2010-10-05 at 09:59 -0600, Orion Poplawski wrote: I think the fun will come from systems that don't properly report their lid status. I think this is one of the complaints from the X developers. >>> >>> *shrug* those are separate bugs we can fix once we make the actual >>> behaviour correct. >> >> Bugs where we turn off people's displays when they're trying to use them >> are things that we should address at the start of the development >> process, not the end. > > don't we already have default behaviours based on the lid switch, > anyway? So why don't we have this problem with those? IIRC, we default > to suspending the system when the lid is closed on battery power - so > are we suspending people's systems at random, if those systems have > lying lid switches? Generally those are based on a change of lid state, which may be different. -- Orion Poplawski Technical Manager 303-415-9701 x222 NWRA/CoRA DivisionFAX: 303-415-9702 3380 Mitchell Lane or...@cora.nwra.com Boulder, CO 80301 http://www.cora.nwra.com -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 02:18:20PM -0400, Nathaniel McCallum wrote: > Agreed, the hardware may lie, but the kernel is the arbiter of truth, at > least in this case. The range of ways that lid switches can be broken is large. One machine I've seen tries to read from a GPIO that's off by 16, because Intel's GPIO/GPE numbering is complicated. Another generates an event on lid close and generates a different event on lid open, but there's no handler for the open event and so the state variable never gets updated. The world is full of bad hardware and the kernel can't always be there to shield userspace from reality. -- Matthew Garrett | mj...@srcf.ucam.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On 10/05/2010 02:25 PM, Matthew Garrett wrote: > On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 02:18:20PM -0400, Nathaniel McCallum wrote: > >> Agreed, the hardware may lie, but the kernel is the arbiter of truth, at >> least in this case. > > The range of ways that lid switches can be broken is large. One machine > I've seen tries to read from a GPIO that's off by 16, because Intel's > GPIO/GPE numbering is complicated. Another generates an event on lid > close and generates a different event on lid open, but there's no > handler for the open event and so the state variable never gets updated. > The world is full of bad hardware and the kernel can't always be there > to shield userspace from reality. Of course, but where possible it should sanitize. Userspace is like a teenager, you expose them to just enough reality to know what's out there, but in general they have no idea just how scary it really is. :) Nathaniel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On Tue, 2010-10-05 at 19:20 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote: > On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 11:18:32AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > don't we already have default behaviours based on the lid switch, > > anyway? So why don't we have this problem with those? IIRC, we default > > to suspending the system when the lid is closed on battery power - so > > are we suspending people's systems at random, if those systems have > > lying lid switches? > > Because we only do that on lid state transitions. So we could at least cover the case where you plug in an external monitor, then close the lid? That would be better than nothing. I assume the problem case is booting with the lid closed and an external monitor connected. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 7:28 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Tue, 2010-10-05 at 19:20 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote: >> On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 11:18:32AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: >> >> > don't we already have default behaviours based on the lid switch, >> > anyway? So why don't we have this problem with those? IIRC, we default >> > to suspending the system when the lid is closed on battery power - so >> > are we suspending people's systems at random, if those systems have >> > lying lid switches? >> >> Because we only do that on lid state transitions. > > So we could at least cover the case where you plug in an external > monitor, then close the lid? That would be better than nothing. I assume > the problem case is booting with the lid closed and an external monitor > connected. The BIOS generally manages to get that one correct, can we not query and keep the current state on boot? Peter -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 02:27:27PM -0400, Nathaniel McCallum wrote: > On 10/05/2010 02:25 PM, Matthew Garrett wrote: > > The range of ways that lid switches can be broken is large. One machine > > I've seen tries to read from a GPIO that's off by 16, because Intel's > > GPIO/GPE numbering is complicated. Another generates an event on lid > > close and generates a different event on lid open, but there's no > > handler for the open event and so the state variable never gets updated. > > The world is full of bad hardware and the kernel can't always be there > > to shield userspace from reality. > > Of course, but where possible it should sanitize. Userspace is like a > teenager, you expose them to just enough reality to know what's out > there, but in general they have no idea just how scary it really is. :) And it's not possible to sanitise in 100% of cases here, so userspace has to cope with the breakage. And if userspace has to cope, there's no point in sanitising any of it. -- Matthew Garrett | mj...@srcf.ucam.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 07:31:54PM +0100, Peter Robinson wrote: > On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 7:28 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: > > So we could at least cover the case where you plug in an external > > monitor, then close the lid? That would be better than nothing. I assume > > the problem case is booting with the lid closed and an external monitor > > connected. > > The BIOS generally manages to get that one correct, can we not query > and keep the current state on boot? It really doesn't. -- Matthew Garrett | mj...@srcf.ucam.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 7:36 PM, Matthew Garrett wrote: > On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 07:31:54PM +0100, Peter Robinson wrote: >> On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 7:28 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: >> > So we could at least cover the case where you plug in an external >> > monitor, then close the lid? That would be better than nothing. I assume >> > the problem case is booting with the lid closed and an external monitor >> > connected. >> >> The BIOS generally manages to get that one correct, can we not query >> and keep the current state on boot? > > It really doesn't. Seems to work just fine from a user perspective. Not that I ever use it like that as I use my laptop as a second screen but of an office of 100% laptops I would think about 50% of the 100 or so people on my floor use it as such. Peter -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 07:53:25PM +0100, Peter Robinson wrote: > On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 7:36 PM, Matthew Garrett wrote: > >> The BIOS generally manages to get that one correct, can we not query > >> and keep the current state on boot? > > > > It really doesn't. > > Seems to work just fine from a user perspective. Not that I ever use > it like that as I use my laptop as a second screen but of an office of > 100% laptops I would think about 50% of the 100 or so people on my > floor use it as such. There's a *lot* of machines that consistently report an incorrect state. -- Matthew Garrett | mj...@srcf.ucam.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 8:00 PM, Matthew Garrett wrote: > On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 07:53:25PM +0100, Peter Robinson wrote: >> On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 7:36 PM, Matthew Garrett wrote: >> >> The BIOS generally manages to get that one correct, can we not query >> >> and keep the current state on boot? >> > >> > It really doesn't. >> >> Seems to work just fine from a user perspective. Not that I ever use >> it like that as I use my laptop as a second screen but of an office of >> 100% laptops I would think about 50% of the 100 or so people on my >> floor use it as such. > > There's a *lot* of machines that consistently report an incorrect state. That would be about 500 across Europe then :-P unfortunately probably only 5-10% run linux but happily Fedora seems to be the one that people have best luck with over the other alternatives (including using evolution with exchange). Peter -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On 05/10/10 08:40 AM, FlorianFesti wrote: > On 10/05/2010 03:15 PM, Nathaniel McCallum wrote: >> If the lid is open, both output should be enabled by default (you are >> free to manually disable one). If the lid is closed on battery power >> the system should suspend (unless you choose otherwise in GPM prefs). >> > I wonder if there are latops that can be booted with lid closed and that > make a subtle sematic difference between the lid was just being closed > and is lid was already closed when we booted up. Dells can boot with lid closed when connected to dock. I do that every day :-) Dariusz -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On 10/05/2010 09:48 AM, Orion Poplawski wrote: > On 10/05/2010 02:35 AM, Richard Hughes wrote: >> On 5 October 2010 05:30, Orion Poplawski wrote: >>> Are we really stuck with gdm/kdm/lxdm/...dm >>> implementing it? >> >> No, I think what we need to do is to teach GPM how to turn off the >> internal panel when docked and with the lid closed. The only missing >> piece is for the kernel to export some kind of sysfs boolean saying >> "in-dock". From talks with mjg59, detecting a dock is pretty hard. >> >> Richard. > > By GPM I'm guessing you mean gnome-power-manager? So each desktop environment > needs to implement this? Does gpm run before login so that it is configured > properly at login time? Who's needs handle it for KDE, LXDE, XFCE, etc.? > > I still don't feel like there has been adequate discussion on where in userspace this needs to be handled. So far all I've seen is what appears to be a GNOME only solution. I'll CC the KDE list to at least get another perspective in here. -- Orion Poplawski Technical Manager 303-415-9701 x222 NWRA/CoRA DivisionFAX: 303-415-9702 3380 Mitchell Lane or...@cora.nwra.com Boulder, CO 80301 http://www.cora.nwra.com -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 11:22:44AM +0100, Richard Hughes wrote: > Well, I guess some people would want the laptop to suspend, but it's a > very good question. Now all it needs is someone willing and able to > write a little patch for me :-) Do you know which components need patching to make Fedora work flawlessly with docking stations? I noticed problems, too, but even bigger problems to find out how the information flows e.g. if a notebook is inserted or ejected from a docking station. On thinkpads it seems not generate some event that cycles through the output configurations. Regards Till pgpFs54NrqIMl.pgp Description: PGP signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On 10/06/2010 12:50 PM, Till Maas wrote: > On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 11:22:44AM +0100, Richard Hughes wrote: > >> Well, I guess some people would want the laptop to suspend, but it's a >> very good question. Now all it needs is someone willing and able to >> write a little patch for me :-) > > Do you know which components need patching to make Fedora work > flawlessly with docking stations? I noticed problems, too, but even > bigger problems to find out how the information flows e.g. if a notebook > is inserted or ejected from a docking station. On thinkpads it seems not > generate some event that cycles through the output configurations. I'm pretty sure docking stations are irrelevant to this whole thread. The issue is about lids and video outputs. If you think lids are all over the place (as mjg59 points out), docks are even worse. Lets not drag them into the conversation if they don't need to be. Nathaniel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On Wed, Oct 06, 2010 at 12:54:41PM -0400, Nathaniel McCallum wrote: > I'm pretty sure docking stations are irrelevant to this whole thread. > The issue is about lids and video outputs. If you think lids are all > over the place (as mjg59 points out), docks are even worse. Lets not > drag them into the conversation if they don't need to be. I have to use docking stations, therefore they are not irrelevant for me. And I only encountered problems in use-cases involving docking stations, but I never had any problem with my other Thinkpad and the lid. Therefore I am all for making Fedora not suck by default when I use a docking station. And even more I am interested in what is happening with all the frameworks, e.g. u\* or whatever is acting on changes. One interesting questions is, what do I have to do to get no change in the screen setup if I move from one docking station to another. Regards Till pgpdRL9XMXao4.pgp Description: PGP signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On 10/06/2010 01:17 PM, Till Maas wrote: > On Wed, Oct 06, 2010 at 12:54:41PM -0400, Nathaniel McCallum wrote: > >> I'm pretty sure docking stations are irrelevant to this whole thread. >> The issue is about lids and video outputs. If you think lids are all >> over the place (as mjg59 points out), docks are even worse. Lets not >> drag them into the conversation if they don't need to be. > > I have to use docking stations, therefore they are not irrelevant for > me. And I only encountered problems in use-cases involving docking > stations, but I never had any problem with my other Thinkpad and the > lid. Therefore I am all for making Fedora not suck by default when I use > a docking station. And even more I am interested in what is happening > with all the frameworks, e.g. u\* or whatever is acting on changes. > One interesting questions is, what do I have to do to get no change in > the screen setup if I move from one docking station to another. I'm with you. I use docking stations too. However, for the topic of why doesn't Fedora show on my monitor when the lid is closed in my docking station, the docking station is actually irrelevant. Its just a video output. Nathaniel -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 06:29:21PM -0600, Dariusz J. Garbowski wrote: > On 05/10/10 08:40 AM, FlorianFesti wrote: > > On 10/05/2010 03:15 PM, Nathaniel McCallum wrote: > >> If the lid is open, both output should be enabled by default (you are > >> free to manually disable one). If the lid is closed on battery power > >> the system should suspend (unless you choose otherwise in GPM prefs). > >> > > I wonder if there are latops that can be booted with lid closed and that > > make a subtle sematic difference between the lid was just being closed > > and is lid was already closed when we booted up. > > Dells can boot with lid closed when connected to dock. I do that every day :-) > Yep, I also boot my HP laptop lid closed, in a dock. -- Pasi -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 08:53:12AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Tue, 2010-10-05 at 09:35 +0100, Richard Hughes wrote: > > On 5 October 2010 05:30, Orion Poplawski wrote: > > > Are we really stuck with gdm/kdm/lxdm/...dm > > > implementing it? > > > > No, I think what we need to do is to teach GPM how to turn off the > > internal panel when docked and with the lid closed. The only missing > > piece is for the kernel to export some kind of sysfs boolean saying > > "in-dock". From talks with mjg59, detecting a dock is pretty hard. > > Maybe just 'lid closed and external monitor connected' would be close > enough? Is there a use case where you'd want to have an external monitor > connected and the internal system's lid closed, but still have the > internal system's display turned on? > Yep, that's enough info. $ cat /proc/acpi/button/lid/LID/state state: open $ cat /proc/acpi/button/lid/LID/state state: closed That lid info combined with info about external monitors connected or not: $ ls /sys/class/drm/card0 card0-DVI-D-1card0-LVDS-1 dev power uevent card0-HDMI Type A-1 card0-VGA-1 device subsystem $ cat /sys/class/drm/card0/card0-LVDS-1/status connected $ cat /sys/class/drm/card0/card0-LVDS-1/enabled enabled Same info is available for external VGA/DVI/HDMI outputs. -- Pasi -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 11:28:43AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Tue, 2010-10-05 at 19:20 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 11:18:32AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > > > don't we already have default behaviours based on the lid switch, > > > anyway? So why don't we have this problem with those? IIRC, we default > > > to suspending the system when the lid is closed on battery power - so > > > are we suspending people's systems at random, if those systems have > > > lying lid switches? > > > > Because we only do that on lid state transitions. > > So we could at least cover the case where you plug in an external > monitor, then close the lid? That would be better than nothing. I assume > the problem case is booting with the lid closed and an external monitor > connected. > Exactly, that's the problematic case. When you boot F14 laptop lid closed and only external monitor connected, GDM still appears only on the closed internal LVDS, not on the external monitor where is should be. So the behaviour is clearly wrong. This is on HP laptop with radeon graphics. -- Pasi -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 07:31:54PM +0100, Peter Robinson wrote: > On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 7:28 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: > > On Tue, 2010-10-05 at 19:20 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote: > >> On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 11:18:32AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > >> > >> > don't we already have default behaviours based on the lid switch, > >> > anyway? So why don't we have this problem with those? IIRC, we default > >> > to suspending the system when the lid is closed on battery power - so > >> > are we suspending people's systems at random, if those systems have > >> > lying lid switches? > >> > >> Because we only do that on lid state transitions. > > > > So we could at least cover the case where you plug in an external > > monitor, then close the lid? That would be better than nothing. I assume > > the problem case is booting with the lid closed and an external monitor > > connected. > > The BIOS generally manages to get that one correct, can we not query > and keep the current state on boot? > Yep, BIOS gets it correct for me (HP laptop with radeon graphics). For Fedora to get it correct it's enough for to check: $ cat /proc/acpi/button/lid/LID/state state: closed and then disable the internal LVDS, and enable external (connected) monitor. -- Pasi -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On Wed, 2010-10-06 at 22:03 +0300, Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote: > On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 11:28:43AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > > On Tue, 2010-10-05 at 19:20 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote: > > > On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 11:18:32AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > > > > > don't we already have default behaviours based on the lid switch, > > > > anyway? So why don't we have this problem with those? IIRC, we default > > > > to suspending the system when the lid is closed on battery power - so > > > > are we suspending people's systems at random, if those systems have > > > > lying lid switches? > > > > > > Because we only do that on lid state transitions. > > > > So we could at least cover the case where you plug in an external > > monitor, then close the lid? That would be better than nothing. I assume > > the problem case is booting with the lid closed and an external monitor > > connected. > > > > Exactly, that's the problematic case. > > When you boot F14 laptop lid closed and only external monitor > connected, GDM still appears only on the closed internal LVDS, > not on the external monitor where is should be. > So the behaviour is clearly wrong. > > This is on HP laptop with radeon graphics. > You're missing the nuance of the debate. What I mean by 'problem case' is that, according to mjg59, lid sensors don't always actually work correctly; there are many documented cases of systems whose lid switches report incorrect state, especially at boot. So we can't just say 'always enable the external monitor and disable the internal monitor if the lid switch says 'closed' and there's an external monitor connected', because the lid switch might be lying. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On Wed, Oct 06, 2010 at 12:33:58PM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Wed, 2010-10-06 at 22:03 +0300, Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 11:28:43AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > On Tue, 2010-10-05 at 19:20 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote: > > > > On Tue, Oct 05, 2010 at 11:18:32AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > > > > > > > don't we already have default behaviours based on the lid switch, > > > > > anyway? So why don't we have this problem with those? IIRC, we default > > > > > to suspending the system when the lid is closed on battery power - so > > > > > are we suspending people's systems at random, if those systems have > > > > > lying lid switches? > > > > > > > > Because we only do that on lid state transitions. > > > > > > So we could at least cover the case where you plug in an external > > > monitor, then close the lid? That would be better than nothing. I assume > > > the problem case is booting with the lid closed and an external monitor > > > connected. > > > > > > > Exactly, that's the problematic case. > > > > When you boot F14 laptop lid closed and only external monitor > > connected, GDM still appears only on the closed internal LVDS, > > not on the external monitor where is should be. > > So the behaviour is clearly wrong. > > > > This is on HP laptop with radeon graphics. > > > > You're missing the nuance of the debate. What I mean by 'problem case' > is that, according to mjg59, lid sensors don't always actually work > correctly; there are many documented cases of systems whose lid switches > report incorrect state, especially at boot. So we can't just say 'always > enable the external monitor and disable the internal monitor if the lid > switch says 'closed' and there's an external monitor connected', because > the lid switch might be lying. > Well.. I think as a default we should trust the lid state. Buggy drivers should be fixed. Buggy BIOSes should be reported to system vendors. What's the worst thing that can happen when trusting the ACPI lid state? Think about this: - Laptop lid open (so internal lvds enabled), and also external monitor connected. - lid state is wrong at boot, so it says lid closed. - Scripts check: "lid closed, external display enabled -> use only external monitor". That gives you a working setup, you can login using the external display, and use the system perfectly fine. You can then manually enable the internal lvds display, or possibly enable some workaround, as you have a buggy laptop/driver/bios. That doesn't sound bad at all. The current situation is far more problematic. If you the lid state is "closed" and there are no external connected monitors, then maybe enable the lvds anyway.. Did I miss something? -- Pasi -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On Wed, 2010-10-06 at 23:32 +0300, Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote: > What's the worst thing that can happen when trusting the ACPI lid state? > > Think about this: > > - Laptop lid open (so internal lvds enabled), and also external monitor > connected. > - lid state is wrong at boot, so it says lid closed. > - Scripts check: "lid closed, external display enabled -> use only external > monitor". > > That gives you a working setup, you can login using the external display, > and use the system perfectly fine. You can then manually enable the > internal lvds display, or possibly enable some workaround, > as you have a buggy laptop/driver/bios. > > That doesn't sound bad at all. However, it's not the worst case. The worst case is if someone has an external monitor connected which they're not actually using (it may be hidden or being used with some other input or just turned off). This does happen: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=582525 that bug is already inconvenient for some people; if they have laptops with bad lid switches it'd be much more inconvenient. The only active display would be the external display they weren't actually using. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On Wed, Oct 06, 2010 at 02:31:22PM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Wed, 2010-10-06 at 23:32 +0300, Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote: > > > What's the worst thing that can happen when trusting the ACPI lid state? > > > > Think about this: > > > > - Laptop lid open (so internal lvds enabled), and also external monitor > > connected. > > - lid state is wrong at boot, so it says lid closed. > > - Scripts check: "lid closed, external display enabled -> use only external > > monitor". > > > > That gives you a working setup, you can login using the external display, > > and use the system perfectly fine. You can then manually enable the > > internal lvds display, or possibly enable some workaround, > > as you have a buggy laptop/driver/bios. > > > > That doesn't sound bad at all. > > However, it's not the worst case. The worst case is if someone has an > external monitor connected which they're not actually using (it may be > hidden or being used with some other input or just turned off). This > does happen: > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=582525 > > that bug is already inconvenient for some people; if they have laptops > with bad lid switches it'd be much more inconvenient. The only active > display would be the external display they weren't actually using. I read that bugzilla as it's a driver bug.. so it'll get fixed at some point. We should define "policy" based on wanted behaviour, not based on various bugs out there.. Bugs need to be fixed, and then the policy works like it's expected. atm we're lacking a policy regarding these laptop lid/dock things. Ie. there's no daemon/script even trying to do the right thing.. (drm/kms driver guys have made it clear the "policy" has to be decided and set up by userspace). For the "transition period" we could have a boot/grub menu item that automatically enables the "old behaviour" for people who have hardware with buggy bios/drivers. Just like we have the "safe (vesa) graphics" boot option on install CDs. Does this make sense? -- Pasi -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On Thu, 2010-10-07 at 10:49 +0300, Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote: > > that bug is already inconvenient for some people; if they have laptops > > with bad lid switches it'd be much more inconvenient. The only active > > display would be the external display they weren't actually using. > > I read that bugzilla as it's a driver bug.. so it'll get fixed at some point. Not really; the driver isn't able to detect if connected monitors are turned on. It's not clear if this is really *theoretically* possible, which is why the report's been closed. And it doesn't cover the case where a connected monitor is powered on but not actually being used for the computer. > We should define "policy" based on wanted behaviour, not based on various > bugs out there.. Bugs need to be fixed, and then the policy works like it's > expected. In theory, yeah, but in practice, we can't take this to extremes if it means we wind up with people staring at blank screens with no apparent explanation. > atm we're lacking a policy regarding these laptop lid/dock things. > Ie. there's no daemon/script even trying to do the right thing.. > > (drm/kms driver guys have made it clear the "policy" has to be decided and > set up by userspace). > > For the "transition period" we could have a boot/grub menu item > that automatically enables the "old behaviour" for people who have > hardware with buggy bios/drivers. Just like we have the "safe (vesa) > graphics" > boot option on install CDs. > > Does this make sense? No, not really, parameters aren't magic, they can only do things if the drivers / userspace utilities are written with these parameters in mind. I don't believe there's any such framework at present, and besides, we want to have *fewer* icky bootloader menu workarounds, really, not more. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On Thu, Oct 07, 2010 at 10:17:11AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Thu, 2010-10-07 at 10:49 +0300, Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote: > > > > that bug is already inconvenient for some people; if they have laptops > > > with bad lid switches it'd be much more inconvenient. The only active > > > display would be the external display they weren't actually using. > > > > I read that bugzilla as it's a driver bug.. so it'll get fixed at some > > point. > > Not really; the driver isn't able to detect if connected monitors are > turned on. It's not clear if this is really *theoretically* possible, > which is why the report's been closed. And it doesn't cover the case > where a connected monitor is powered on but not actually being used for > the computer. > Hmm... things seem to work always ok on Windows, so it should be possible.. > > We should define "policy" based on wanted behaviour, not based on various > > bugs out there.. Bugs need to be fixed, and then the policy works like it's > > expected. > > In theory, yeah, but in practice, we can't take this to extremes if it > means we wind up with people staring at blank screens with no apparent > explanation. > Well, I'm staring at blank screens with the current behaviour.. :) > > atm we're lacking a policy regarding these laptop lid/dock things. > > Ie. there's no daemon/script even trying to do the right thing.. > > > > (drm/kms driver guys have made it clear the "policy" has to be decided and > > set up by userspace). > > > > For the "transition period" we could have a boot/grub menu item > > that automatically enables the "old behaviour" for people who have > > hardware with buggy bios/drivers. Just like we have the "safe (vesa) > > graphics" > > boot option on install CDs. > > > > Does this make sense? > > No, not really, parameters aren't magic, they can only do things if the > drivers / userspace utilities are written with these parameters in mind. > I don't believe there's any such framework at present, and besides, we > want to have *fewer* icky bootloader menu workarounds, really, not more. > Ok. But yes, we need some daemon that monitors ACPI lid state, and kms/drm output states, and enables/disables displays based on those. We're clearly lacking that atm. Driver developers have made it clear userspace needs a component that takes care of that. -- Pasi -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
Pasi Kärkkäinen píše v Čt 07. 10. 2010 v 22:29 +0300: > On Thu, Oct 07, 2010 at 10:17:11AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > > On Thu, 2010-10-07 at 10:49 +0300, Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote: > > > > > > that bug is already inconvenient for some people; if they have laptops > > > > with bad lid switches it'd be much more inconvenient. The only active > > > > display would be the external display they weren't actually using. > > > > > > I read that bugzilla as it's a driver bug.. so it'll get fixed at some > > > point. > > > > Not really; the driver isn't able to detect if connected monitors are > > turned on. It's not clear if this is really *theoretically* possible, > > which is why the report's been closed. And it doesn't cover the case > > where a connected monitor is powered on but not actually being used for > > the computer. > > > > Hmm... things seem to work always ok on Windows, so it should be possible.. And I dare to call the recent behaviour a regression, because IIRC it worked well until one (not identified) update in F-12. Dan -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On Thu, Oct 07, 2010 at 09:43:22PM +0200, Dan Horák wrote: > Pasi Kärkkäinen píše v ??t 07. 10. 2010 v 22:29 +0300: > > On Thu, Oct 07, 2010 at 10:17:11AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > On Thu, 2010-10-07 at 10:49 +0300, Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote: > > > > > > > > that bug is already inconvenient for some people; if they have laptops > > > > > with bad lid switches it'd be much more inconvenient. The only active > > > > > display would be the external display they weren't actually using. > > > > > > > > I read that bugzilla as it's a driver bug.. so it'll get fixed at some > > > > point. > > > > > > Not really; the driver isn't able to detect if connected monitors are > > > turned on. It's not clear if this is really *theoretically* possible, > > > which is why the report's been closed. And it doesn't cover the case > > > where a connected monitor is powered on but not actually being used for > > > the computer. > > > > > > > Hmm... things seem to work always ok on Windows, so it should be possible.. > > And I dare to call the recent behaviour a regression, because IIRC it > worked well until one (not identified) update in F-12. > > Also it would be perfectly ok if I could enable "trust_acpi_lid_state" option somewhere (since I know it works on my laptop), but today we don't have a daemon/tool/script to handle laptop lids.. So we're not even trying to do the right thing.. -- Pasi -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On Sun, Oct 17, 2010 at 02:05:34PM +0300, Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote: > On Thu, Oct 07, 2010 at 09:43:22PM +0200, Dan Horák wrote: > > Pasi Kärkkäinen píše v ??t 07. 10. 2010 v 22:29 +0300: > > > On Thu, Oct 07, 2010 at 10:17:11AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > > On Thu, 2010-10-07 at 10:49 +0300, Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote: > > > > > > > > > > that bug is already inconvenient for some people; if they have > > > > > > laptops > > > > > > with bad lid switches it'd be much more inconvenient. The only > > > > > > active > > > > > > display would be the external display they weren't actually using. > > > > > > > > > > I read that bugzilla as it's a driver bug.. so it'll get fixed at > > > > > some point. > > > > > > > > Not really; the driver isn't able to detect if connected monitors are > > > > turned on. It's not clear if this is really *theoretically* possible, > > > > which is why the report's been closed. And it doesn't cover the case > > > > where a connected monitor is powered on but not actually being used for > > > > the computer. > > > > > > > > > > Hmm... things seem to work always ok on Windows, so it should be > > > possible.. > > > > And I dare to call the recent behaviour a regression, because IIRC it > > worked well until one (not identified) update in F-12. > > > > > > Also it would be perfectly ok if I could enable "trust_acpi_lid_state" option > somewhere (since I know it works on my laptop), but today we don't have a > daemon/tool/script to handle laptop lids.. > > So we're not even trying to do the right thing.. > I was asking about the "monitor connected but turned off" thing on dri-devel, and the reply was that it's impossible to detect if the display is turned on or off. Displays are designed to always send the EDID info, no difference if they're on or off. So.. we can't detect that. And others can't either. What we need is a daemon/tool/script that monitors the ACPI LID state and enables/disables the internal LVDS based on that, and also enables/disables the external monitors based on their "connected" status. If the external monitor is connected but turned off then the user just has to turn the monitor on to see the content. The bigger problem was the laptop LID thing, and this solution fixes that. (bugs in acpi drivers or hardware aside). A couple of possible scenarios: - Laptop lid closed, external monitor connected and on -> only external display should be enabled. - Laptop lid closed, external monitor connected but off -> only external display should be enabled. - Laptop lid open, external monitor connected and on -> both internal lvds and external display should be enabled. - Laptop lid open, external monitor connected but off -> both internal lvds and external display should be enabled. - Laptop lid open, no external monitor connected -> only internal lvds should be enabled. - Laptop lid closed, no external monitor connected -> what to do here? -- Pasi -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Matthew Garrett wrote: > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 11:53:01AM -0400, Fulko Hew wrote: > >So I'm going to hijack this thread a little and ask if anyone can > >point me to a resource that can tell me (at the lowest level) what > >I need to interact with (what hardware bus I need to send messages on) > >to send the request for EDID info to a monitor and get the results > >so I can decode them. (I have the message format info, I just don't > >know where to send/receive the stuff. > > /sys/class/drm/*/edid . You really don't want to do i2c from userspace > if you can possibly avoid it. > But thats (unfortunately) exactly what I have to do because the device isn't running Linux. :-( I knew it was I2C, but on what bus and 'how do I get there from here'? It would have to be on the video interface/card(s) right? -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 01:37:41PM -0400, Fulko Hew wrote: >But thats (unfortunately) exactly what I have to do because the device >isn't running Linux. :-( Yeah, this probably isn't the right place to be asking, then. >I knew it was I2C, but on what bus and 'how do I get there from here'? >It would have to be on the video interface/card(s) right? Right. Your GPU will typically have a per-output i2c bus, and EDID is in an eeprom stored at a well-defined address on that. -- Matthew Garrett | mj...@srcf.ucam.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 1:59 PM, Matthew Garrett wrote: > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 01:37:41PM -0400, Fulko Hew wrote: > > >But thats (unfortunately) exactly what I have to do because the device > >isn't running Linux. :-( > > Yeah, this probably isn't the right place to be asking, then. > I thought I'd try to ask, because if some Linux developer could tell me how/where some app like xrandr gets the data, then I could figure out how to accomplish it on my equivalent system. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
Re: Making Fedora work with laptops on docking station with external monitor
On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 02:18:16PM -0400, Fulko Hew wrote: >I thought I'd try to ask, because if some Linux developer could tell me >how/where >some app like xrandr gets the data, then I could figure out how to >accomplish >it on my equivalent system. xrandr gets it from the X server, and on modern systems the X server gets it from sysfs. On pre-KMS hardware it's handled by the device-specific code in the X server knowing how to bang the gpu registers to do i2c. If you've got control of your kernel then the sane thing to do is to add kernel support, but otherwise dig through the i2c code in the X server. -- Matthew Garrett | mj...@srcf.ucam.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
