Re: services impact on startup times
On Thu, Sep 03, 2020 at 11:25:59AM +0100, Peter Oliver wrote: > On Wed, 2 Sep 2020, John M. Harris Jr wrote: > > > What's meant is that people are still setting up scheduled tasks by running > > `crontab -e` and similar. > > I think most such users would quickly figure out they can `yum install > /usr/bin/crontab`, though. It's even more easy/obvious on Fedora: % crontab -e zsh: crontab: command not found... Install package 'cronie' to provide command 'crontab'? [N/y] -- Tomasz Torcz RIP is irrevelant. Spoofing is futile. to...@pipebreaker.pl Your routes will be aggreggated. -- Alex Yuriev ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: services impact on startup times
On Wed, 2 Sep 2020, John M. Harris Jr wrote: What's meant is that people are still setting up scheduled tasks by running `crontab -e` and similar. I think most such users would quickly figure out they can `yum install /usr/bin/crontab`, though. -- Peter Oliver ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: services impact on startup times
On Wed, 2 Sep 2020, Michael Catanzaro wrote: On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 1:09 pm, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: As for crond and atd, I think we can keep them installed by default, but inactive. I.e. make them socket activated or path activated, so that they are only started if people install actual crontabs or run at. I don't think they're really needed because any packaged service that requires them could just add an appropriate Requires. Agreed, although perhaps there is some benefit to doing this anyway, for upgrading users who have atd and crond installed and running but are not using them. -- Peter Oliver___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: services impact on startup times
On Wednesday, September 2, 2020 6:27:22 AM MST Michael Catanzaro wrote: > On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 1:09 pm, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek > wrote: > > > As for crond and atd, I think we can keep them installed by default, > > but inactive. I.e. make them socket activated or path activated, so > > that > > they are only started if people install actual crontabs or run at. > > > I don't think they're really needed because any packaged service that > requires them could just add an appropriate Requires. And if you're > trying to run a custom unpackaged service, it shouldn't be hard to > install. > > https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/183 > > > > We would also need to convert any packaged cronfiles into systemd > > timers. But it seems that this is already mostly done. On my machine, > > /etc/cron.weekly/98-zfs-fuse-scrub is the only real crontab entry. > > > I also noticed that yesterday: > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1874553 > > Michael Michael, What's meant is that people are still setting up scheduled tasks by running `crontab -e` and similar. -- John M. Harris, Jr. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: services impact on startup times
On Wednesday, September 2, 2020 6:09:26 AM MST Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: > On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 09:27:33PM -0600, Chris Murphy wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > These are based on Fedora-Workstation-Live-x86_64-33-20200828.n.0.iso > > in a VM. The numbers are different on bare metal but correlate. > > > > The only standout is rngd.service. That's a pretty big single hit, > > percentage wise. And I don't know if we even need it anymore. Among > > the rest, perhaps atd.service and crond.service could be disabled by > > default on new installations, in favor of systemd timers. > > > I think that with the recent-ish kernel changes to make /dev/urandom > non-blocking, rngd should not be installed by default. > > > As for crond and atd, I think we can keep them installed by default, > but inactive. I.e. make them socket activated or path activated, so that > they are only started if people install actual crontabs or run at. Instead, why not just have these start in the background, so that they don't inhibit the start of `sddm` or `lightdm`? > We would also need to convert any packaged cronfiles into systemd > timers. But it seems that this is already mostly done. On my machine, > /etc/cron.weekly/98-zfs-fuse-scrub is the only real crontab entry. > > Those are not big programs, but each thing that is running on a > machine has some small impact... Having these start in the background would remove that startup impact. -- John M. Harris, Jr. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: services impact on startup times
On Sat, 2020-08-29 at 21:27 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote: > Hi, > > These are based on Fedora-Workstation-Live-x86_64-33-20200828.n.0.iso > in a VM. The numbers are different on bare metal but correlate. > > The only standout is rngd.service. That's a pretty big single hit, > percentage wise. And I don't know if we even need it anymore. Among > the rest, perhaps atd.service and crond.service could be disabled by > default on new installations, in favor of systemd timers. Well, what rngd does is highly system dependent, and in a VM it's gonna depend to a degree on exactly how the VM is configured (whether you attach some kind of virtual hwrng to the VM and if so how it's set up exactly). You'd want some data from real systems and probably different VM configs before deciding rngd is a big problem. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net http://www.happyassassin.net ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: services impact on startup times
On Wed, Sep 2, 2020 at 1:09 pm, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: As for crond and atd, I think we can keep them installed by default, but inactive. I.e. make them socket activated or path activated, so that they are only started if people install actual crontabs or run at. I don't think they're really needed because any packaged service that requires them could just add an appropriate Requires. And if you're trying to run a custom unpackaged service, it shouldn't be hard to install. https://pagure.io/fedora-workstation/issue/183 We would also need to convert any packaged cronfiles into systemd timers. But it seems that this is already mostly done. On my machine, /etc/cron.weekly/98-zfs-fuse-scrub is the only real crontab entry. I also noticed that yesterday: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1874553 Michael ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: services impact on startup times
On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 09:27:33PM -0600, Chris Murphy wrote: > Hi, > > These are based on Fedora-Workstation-Live-x86_64-33-20200828.n.0.iso > in a VM. The numbers are different on bare metal but correlate. > > The only standout is rngd.service. That's a pretty big single hit, > percentage wise. And I don't know if we even need it anymore. Among > the rest, perhaps atd.service and crond.service could be disabled by > default on new installations, in favor of systemd timers. I think that with the recent-ish kernel changes to make /dev/urandom non-blocking, rngd should not be installed by default. As for crond and atd, I think we can keep them installed by default, but inactive. I.e. make them socket activated or path activated, so that they are only started if people install actual crontabs or run at. We would also need to convert any packaged cronfiles into systemd timers. But it seems that this is already mostly done. On my machine, /etc/cron.weekly/98-zfs-fuse-scrub is the only real crontab entry. Those are not big programs, but each thing that is running on a machine has some small impact... I see the appeal of keeping them functional by default: there are countless manual on the web, and even if people use them nowadays much less than in the past, it'd still be nice to make this "just work" for people who follow them. In the past, I saw pcp as a fairly big offender. I'm not sure if it still installed by default. Zbyszek ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: services impact on startup times
On Monday, August 31, 2020 7:01:12 AM MST Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > Things are in flux again and cron/atd has pretty much hit the end of the > road. What is this comment based on? Cron jobs are still standard. You have cron jobs no matter what unix-like you're on, and crontab follows a standard syntax between all distros and modern unix-likes. Nearly every article to this day tells you how to use cron jobs to run tasks on a schedule, or how to use `at` for one-offs. > The systemd people have come up with a different method in timers That's well and great, but that has nothing to do with Cron. I wish the systemd folks the best with their latest toys. > the workstation people want the defaults to not have cron anymore. What's this based on? Chris seemed to be confused as to why it was there, but didn't say anything about removing it. He did suggest *disabling* it, but there's a far better option: Have it start in the background, if it doesn't already. -- John M. Harris, Jr. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: services impact on startup times
On Mon, 31 Aug 2020 at 09:39, John M. Harris Jr wrote: > On Monday, August 31, 2020 5:46:47 AM MST Peter Oliver wrote: > > > On Saturday, August 29, 2020 8:27:33 PM MST Chris Murphy wrote: > > > > > > Unless systemd timers run crontab entries, crond and atd cannot be > > > disabled. > > > > Why's that? > > > > Sure, crond should be enabled by default if installed, but does it need > to > > be installed by default in Workstation? We could convert cron jobs in > the > > default install (if any) one-by-one into systemd timers until no cron > jobs > > remain. > > Yes? Cron is the standard way to automatically run tasks at a given time. > I'm > s/is the/is a/ ** This conversation is not new and is a repeat of the ones from the various 1990's when Linux crontabs were considered non-standard and broken by various Unix administrators because Linux 'fixed' various problems which were common in crontabs back then. Eventually those fixes actually even ended up in various Unix's as they caught up with the times. Things are in flux again and cron/atd has pretty much hit the end of the road. The systemd people have come up with a different method in timers, and the workstation people want the defaults to not have cron anymore. A person who wants to keep cron can install it and maintain it themselves. ** The various standards like POSIX which detail cron/atd etc are not anything Fedora or most Linux distributions are 'confirmed' against. It is also written for a world where Solaris is a Unix and Linux is not. When someone can get the various Linux distributions to come up with a LOSIX standard and stick to it.. then having an argument about 'the standard' is worthwhile. Until then distributions match standards when they want versus anything else. not concerned about Fedora defined cron jobs, or I wouldn't be including > `atd` > in that list anyway. I don't think that anything in Fedora itself uses > `atd`. > The end user is the one that will be using `crond` and `atd`. > > If you just put these in the background, if they're not already, this will > solve your problem. > > -- > John M. Harris, Jr. > > ___ > devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org > Fedora Code of Conduct: > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ > List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines > List Archives: > https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org > -- Stephen J Smoogen. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: services impact on startup times
On Monday, August 31, 2020 5:46:47 AM MST Peter Oliver wrote: > > On Saturday, August 29, 2020 8:27:33 PM MST Chris Murphy wrote: > > > > Unless systemd timers run crontab entries, crond and atd cannot be > > disabled. > > Why's that? > > Sure, crond should be enabled by default if installed, but does it need to > be installed by default in Workstation? We could convert cron jobs in the > default install (if any) one-by-one into systemd timers until no cron jobs > remain. Yes? Cron is the standard way to automatically run tasks at a given time. I'm not concerned about Fedora defined cron jobs, or I wouldn't be including `atd` in that list anyway. I don't think that anything in Fedora itself uses `atd`. The end user is the one that will be using `crond` and `atd`. If you just put these in the background, if they're not already, this will solve your problem. -- John M. Harris, Jr. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: services impact on startup times
> On Saturday, August 29, 2020 8:27:33 PM MST Chris Murphy wrote: > > Unless systemd timers run crontab entries, crond and atd cannot be disabled. Why's that? Sure, crond should be enabled by default if installed, but does it need to be installed by default in Workstation? We could convert cron jobs in the default install (if any) one-by-one into systemd timers until no cron jobs remain. -- Peter Oliver ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: services impact on startup times
On Saturday, August 29, 2020 8:27:33 PM MST Chris Murphy wrote: > Hi, > > These are based on Fedora-Workstation-Live-x86_64-33-20200828.n.0.iso > in a VM. The numbers are different on bare metal but correlate. > > The only standout is rngd.service. That's a pretty big single hit, > percentage wise. And I don't know if we even need it anymore. Among > the rest, perhaps atd.service and crond.service could be disabled by > default on new installations, in favor of systemd timers. > > Startup finished in 1.320s (kernel) + 1.344s (initrd) + 7.727s > (userspace) = 10.392s > disable atd.service > Startup finished in 1.308s (kernel) + 1.310s (initrd) + 7.557s > (userspace) = 10.176s > disable dbxtool.service > Startup finished in 1.302s (kernel) + 1.291s (initrd) + 7.527s > (userspace) = 10.120s > disable import-state.service > Startup finished in 1.308s (kernel) + 1.326s (initrd) + 7.410s > (userspace) = 10.044s > disable iscsi.service > Startup finished in 1.316s (kernel) + 1.303s (initrd) + 7.177s > (userspace) = 9.797s > disable libvirtd.service > Startup finished in 1.316s (kernel) + 1.266s (initrd) + 6.779s > (userspace) = 9.361s > disable lvm2-monitor.service > Startup finished in 1.315s (kernel) + 1.323s (initrd) + 6.750s > (userspace) = 9.389s > disable mdmonitor.service > Startup finished in 1.316s (kernel) + 1.350s (initrd) + 6.675s > (userspace) = 9.342s > disable ModemManager.service > Startup finished in 1.270s (kernel) + 1.305s (initrd) + 7.052s > (userspace) = 9.629s > disable nfs-convert.service > Startup finished in 1.312s (kernel) + 1.343s (initrd) + 6.958s > (userspace) = 9.614s > disable rngd.service > Startup finished in 1.308s (kernel) + 1.277s (initrd) + 5.247s > (userspace) = 7.833s > disable switcheroo-control.service > Startup finished in 1.308s (kernel) + 1.334s (initrd) + 5.223s > (userspace) = 7.867s > disable vboxservice.service > Startup finished in 1.301s (kernel) + 1.302s (initrd) + 5.176s > (userspace) = 7.780s > disable crond.service > Startup finished in 1.310s (kernel) + 1.278s (initrd) + 5.076s > (userspace) = 7.665s > > preset-all > Startup finished in 1.316s (kernel) + 1.312s (initrd) + 7.869s > (userspace) = 10.498s ##stopwatch 11.35 > disable atd.service crond.service iscsi.service rngd.service > vboxservice.service > Startup finished in 1.305s (kernel) + 1.294s (initrd) > + 5.505s > (userspace) = 8.105s ##stopwatch 8.89 > > All of these times are based on 'systemd-analyze'. The stopwatch > method is less precise but still demonstrates the difference is real. > > It may not be a big enough deal to do anything about it this cycle, > but could be something to look at for the next. Maybe more > opportunities are available. Unless systemd timers run crontab entries, crond and atd cannot be disabled. Instead, perhaps these could be marked such that they'll start in the background, instead of inhibiting the sddm/whatever GNOME's service is from starting, if they're not already marked as such. -- John M. Harris, Jr. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
services impact on startup times
Hi, These are based on Fedora-Workstation-Live-x86_64-33-20200828.n.0.iso in a VM. The numbers are different on bare metal but correlate. The only standout is rngd.service. That's a pretty big single hit, percentage wise. And I don't know if we even need it anymore. Among the rest, perhaps atd.service and crond.service could be disabled by default on new installations, in favor of systemd timers. Startup finished in 1.320s (kernel) + 1.344s (initrd) + 7.727s (userspace) = 10.392s disable atd.service Startup finished in 1.308s (kernel) + 1.310s (initrd) + 7.557s (userspace) = 10.176s disable dbxtool.service Startup finished in 1.302s (kernel) + 1.291s (initrd) + 7.527s (userspace) = 10.120s disable import-state.service Startup finished in 1.308s (kernel) + 1.326s (initrd) + 7.410s (userspace) = 10.044s disable iscsi.service Startup finished in 1.316s (kernel) + 1.303s (initrd) + 7.177s (userspace) = 9.797s disable libvirtd.service Startup finished in 1.316s (kernel) + 1.266s (initrd) + 6.779s (userspace) = 9.361s disable lvm2-monitor.service Startup finished in 1.315s (kernel) + 1.323s (initrd) + 6.750s (userspace) = 9.389s disable mdmonitor.service Startup finished in 1.316s (kernel) + 1.350s (initrd) + 6.675s (userspace) = 9.342s disable ModemManager.service Startup finished in 1.270s (kernel) + 1.305s (initrd) + 7.052s (userspace) = 9.629s disable nfs-convert.service Startup finished in 1.312s (kernel) + 1.343s (initrd) + 6.958s (userspace) = 9.614s disable rngd.service Startup finished in 1.308s (kernel) + 1.277s (initrd) + 5.247s (userspace) = 7.833s disable switcheroo-control.service Startup finished in 1.308s (kernel) + 1.334s (initrd) + 5.223s (userspace) = 7.867s disable vboxservice.service Startup finished in 1.301s (kernel) + 1.302s (initrd) + 5.176s (userspace) = 7.780s disable crond.service Startup finished in 1.310s (kernel) + 1.278s (initrd) + 5.076s (userspace) = 7.665s preset-all Startup finished in 1.316s (kernel) + 1.312s (initrd) + 7.869s (userspace) = 10.498s ##stopwatch 11.35 disable atd.service crond.service iscsi.service rngd.service vboxservice.service Startup finished in 1.305s (kernel) + 1.294s (initrd) + 5.505s (userspace) = 8.105s ##stopwatch 8.89 All of these times are based on 'systemd-analyze'. The stopwatch method is less precise but still demonstrates the difference is real. It may not be a big enough deal to do anything about it this cycle, but could be something to look at for the next. Maybe more opportunities are available. -- Chris Murphy ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
