Re: G1G1v2 Activities
On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 4:01 AM, Gary C Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm showing my age here, but is bundle_id a replacement for service_name? Seem to be identical. Yeah, service_name is deprecated but they are basically the same thing. bundlebuilder should probably warn about it. Marco ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: G1G1v2 Activities
Am 19.09.2008 um 01:13 schrieb Douglas Bagnall: Greg Smith wrote: What do you think are the most important activities to include? If we're sticking to activities with valid activity.info files, then (AFAICT) we're limited to: XaoS - org.codewiz.XaoS Sokoban - de.hpi.swa.Sokoban Pipes- de.hpi.swa.Pipes Bounce - bounce Chat - org.laptop.Chat DrGeoII - org.ofset.DrGeoII Breakout - de.hpi.swa.Breakout Funtowers- de.hpi.swa.Funtowers DiceWars - de.hpi.swa.DiceWars X activity - org.laptop.wiki.XActivity StackAttack - de.hpi.swa.StackAttack Joke Machine - org.worldwideworkshop.JokeMachineActivity Sokobaenle - de.hpi.swa.Sokobaenle BlockAttack - de.hpi.swa.BlockAttack Abalone - de.hpi.swa.Abalone SameGame - de.hpi.swa.SameGame Not that it really matters, of course. Most activities fail by having no bundle_id, and only 36/115 have host_version. Hehe. Random useless fact: 68.75% of the activities on this list are Squeak-based ;) Good on whoever does the swa.hpi.de games. Kudos to the student Squeak hackers at the University of Potsdam, Germany. - Bert - ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: G1G1v2 Activities
On 19 Sep 2008, at 09:15, Marco Pesenti Gritti wrote: On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 4:01 AM, Gary C Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm showing my age here, but is bundle_id a replacement for service_name? Seem to be identical. Yeah, service_name is deprecated but they are basically the same thing. bundlebuilder should probably warn about it. Marco So I should keep both in my activity.info for backwards compatibility with early builds? Thanks for all the responses, I obviously haven't quite understood the way string translations** are designed for yet, will go have another read and poke about. **basically trying to absorb the Moon.activity/locale/es/ activity.linfo that was added to Moon-4 for the Peru deployment bundle. I'm now assuming this file is being generated (or prevented from auto deletion) by something in po which I'm missed. --Gary ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: mechanisms tied to mesh: under a tree collab
Hi Stephen, quote who=Stephen Thorne This means two laptops from neighbouring schools who each have their 'own' schoolserver set up as their jabber server will not be able to share any content if they are close enough to receive wireless signal to the internet. Unless they join each others school server for collaboration activities :) that is how I'm planning on linkin gup a few schools here who are hundreds of kilometers apart, but having the teachers know how to connect to the other schoolserver for short activities, and then back to the local server. Cheers, Pia -- OLPC Australia http://olpc.org.au/ Linux Australia http://linux.org.au/ Open Source Industry Australia http://osia.net.au/ Software Freedom Day http://softwarefreedomday.org/ If you have any trouble sounding condescending, find a Unix user to show you how it's done. - Scott Adams ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: VideoChat-7 release
Hi all, quote who=Stephen Thorne I'm pleased to announce that I've had a successful Video conversation, and am releasing the .xo file that is the result of this weeks hard labour. I just wanted to say a big thanks to Stephen for all his work. I believe this app will really make a huge difference to people as it has distance education, communication, health and many other wonderful implications. Great work! I'll update the Activities page now. Cheers, Pia -- OLPC Australia http://olpc.org.au/ Linux Australia http://linux.org.au/ Open Source Industry Australia http://osia.net.au/ Software Freedom Day http://softwarefreedomday.org/ We are the facilitators of our own creative evolution. - Bill Hicks ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: G1G1v2 Activities
On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 1:10 PM, Gary C Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So I should keep both in my activity.info for backwards compatibility with early builds? This was change *long* time ago. I suspect your activity would not work for other reasons if run with such an old Sugar. Marco ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: testing 8.2 using qemu
Hi Gary, Thank you for your response. The Moon activity looks like a very good place to learn how to do things, it is very well written and easy to understand. I will read about json. One small suggestion: when you toggle hemispheres, it would be good to have a text label showing the current hemispere view (north or south). Best regards, Gabriel 2008/9/18 Gary C Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi Gabriel, On 19 Sep 2008, at 01:43, Gabriel Eirea wrote: I appreciate your explanation but my question was not about the literal meaning but about where in the filesystem does the variable point to. I just looked at where my Moon activity was being told to write: /home/olpc/isolation/1/uid_to_home_dir/1/data/ My thinking was: I need to read a configuration file that I myself generate and ship in the bundle, but then rainbow doesn't let me read it because it's in $HOME, so where should I put that file and how do I put it there? Now the question seems pointless because if understood correctly $SUGAR_ACTIVITY_ROOT is mostly used for writing files. Then, I'm guessing the case scenario is this: if you have read-only files then it is ok to leave them in $HOME; if you have read-write files then you should write them to $SUGAR_ACTIVITY_ROOT/data. My question now is: if you have a configuration file with some preset values that goes in the bundle and the user changes it, the application should be able to read it from $HOME the first time, copy the original file from $HOME to $SUGAR_ACTIVITY_ROOT/data and then use that copy in the future ? Not sure if this will help, but Moon-5 implements a couple of things that seem similar to what you might be after. I still need to do a cleanup of various source odds and ends, but have a look at the moon.py blob at: http://dev.laptop.org/git?p=activities/moon;a=tree The read_and_parse_preferences method should be helpful, as should write_file, basically it's storing and retrieving a couple of values*** into $SUGAR_ACTIVITY_ROOT/data/defaults so that the view settings will now stick. The settings are also going into the Journal entry, with Journal data taking precedents over default data (so resumes pickup where they left off and clean activity launches inherit the last used defaults). *** I was recommended to use json as a general way of storing preference like data as it's a clean text format that can potentially be parsed easily by other code if needed. --Gary ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Keeping Trac(k)
For keeping up with new Trac tickets I discovered this RSS feed: http://dev.laptop.org/timeline?ticket=onmax=50daysback=7format=rss ... which only has entries for opened and closed tickets. This is much more bearable than subscribing to the bug notify list. Even better would be if I could filter that by component :) - Bert - ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: testing 8.2 using qemu
On Thursday 18 September 2008 09:16:57 Ton van Overbeek wrote: The second one (3DNow required) is due to the change to the 2.6.25 kernel for 8.2. The kernel checks for CPU features and does not continue booting when it does not find them. The kernel for the XO is build for the AMD LX-Geode and therefore looks for 3DNow. If you would run qemu on a machine with an AMD processor it most likely will work. If you are running it on an Intel processor, you get the kernel needs 3dnow message. It does not seem to matter what the host computer is. I tried it a while back on a Athlon 64 and it still outputs the kernel needs 3dnow message. Philippe -- The trouble with common sense is that it is so uncommon. Anonymous ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [Server-devel] PostgreSQL mgmt on Fedora: pg_cluster-like tools?
On Sat, 2008-09-13 at 16:54 +1200, Martin Langhoff wrote: On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 12:07 AM, Tom Lane [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Having been once the maintainer of the Pg compat layer in Moodle, I also have first-hand experience with this. When the casts removal was mentioned in pg-devel, who was there asking about backwards compat? If you need 100% backwards compatibility, you keep using 8.2 Perhaps wasn't clear - I wasn't complaining at all, just pointing out to Devrim that I am aware and active in tracking compat issues. Anyway, Devrim is quite right that mere installation of an RPM cannot execute any sort of database conversion. The functionality would need to be invoked sometime else. That doesn't mean it has to be manual though. Could we put it in the start script, invoked by something like service postgresql upgrade? Only if such conversion can be guaranteed not to fail. In many cases this is not possible, because data-bases normally are subject to different layers of authentication or might be networked. I completely agree. Exactly what does a conversion look like in Debian's packaging, anyway? * apt-get install postgresql-8.2 * pg_dropcluster –stop 8.2 main * pg_upgradecluster -v 8.2 8.1 main /var/lib/postgresql/8.2/main and if it works well, pg_dropcluster 8.1 main will delete the data dir of the old one. I am not familiar with this particular case nor with postgres, but with many mysql-based applications such approach is mostly certain to fail. Ralf ___ Server-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/server-devel
Re: [Server-devel] Pg 8.3 tuning recommendations for embedded low-memory device (for OLPC :-) )
On 2008-09-15 01:55, Martin Langhoff wrote: I am working on the School Server (aka XS: a Fedora 9 spin, tailored to run on fairly limited hw) I think Fedora or any spin of it is a bad choice for a server. It's support lifecycle is so short you'll have to reinstall it every year. A very similar to Fedora and also free CentOS is supported for 5 years. Regards Tometzky -- ...although Eating Honey was a very good thing to do, there was a moment just before you began to eat it which was better than when you were... Winnie the Pooh ___ Server-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/server-devel
Re: [Server-devel] [GENERAL] Pg 8.3 tuning recommendations for embedded low-memory device (for OLPC :-) )
On Mon, 15 Sep 2008, Martin Langhoff wrote: +max_prepared_transactions = 5 That is the default on 8.3, am guessing you just uncommented it but didn't change. If you're not actually using prepared transactions anywhere, you may very well be able to drive memory use down a touch more by lowering this to zero. If you're not sure, the easy but somewhat harsh way to find out is to set it that low on a test system and see if everything still works. If you're using them, 5 is actually too low; you'd want one for every connection to be safe. +wal_writer_delay = 1000ms Presumably your goal is to lower how often transactions get written to disk to lower overhead, right? You mentioned in your first message you could handle some of that even if it's at the expense of robustness on crash. In that case, what you also need to set here is: synchronous_commit = off When then lets wal_writer_delay do what I think you want. See http://www.postgresql.org/docs/8.3/interactive/wal-async-commit.html for more info. Other than that little bit of tweaking, it looks like you've got a good handle on the memory allocation model. The other parameter you should be setting is effective_cache_size, to about how much total RAM is available for PostgreSQL to use including the OS buffer cache. That's probably at least 1/2 of the RAM in each system, you can look at what's leftover after the system is running to get a rough value there. This is only used for estimating what size of queries could be handled by the system, it's not a memory allocation. -- * Greg Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gregsmith.com Baltimore, MD ___ Server-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/server-devel
Re: [Server-devel] [sugar] Restoring journal entries (was Re: Backup And Restore Feature Documentation)
On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 9:37 AM, Walter Bender [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd be nice to architect this in a way such that someone without access to an XS could perhaps subscribe to an external service offered up on the Internet to achieve the same functionality. We had (long ago) a standing offer from Google at one point for such as service. That could be nice. I might be just as happy (or, happier?) with a system (admittedly similar to Apple's Time Machine) which would allow one to declare an external hard drive as a backup device, and then automatically handle backups to that drive whenever it is plugged in (just as we hope to have the XOs automatically backup to the school server). Anyone (I'm thinking G1G1) can get their hands on an external hard drive; there's much more overhead involved in a network backup in terms of accounts, agreements, bandwidth, etc. The benefit to the Google solution, of course, is that it might serve as a second tier for kids in schools as well. Essentially, those without a school server would just skip the intermediate step. - Eben -walter On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 5:41 AM, Martin Langhoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 9:34 PM, Tomeu Vizoso [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: these questions depend on the actual code that performs the restore. I'm going to comment on what happens when the user clicks on an entry from Browse (the only restore mechanism that is available today). Tomeu and I had a quick chat about this. A 'full restore' could be done from Journal via rsync+ssh with no changes on the XS side (at least for some scenarios). If we are going to do it for 9.1, we should be doing it now, not later... I am not sure how or when things will get prioritised for 9.1, but if 'full restore' is a high priority ticket (which I am not sure about) then we'd need to hear from Greg on this track, and have a bit of a catch up to flesh it out. For some cases the XS will need changes, so it might be a good idea to involve me as well (bear in mind I am in a tight release cycle right now though :-) so my time's a bit squeezed...) cheers, m -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff ___ Sugar mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar ___ Sugar mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar ___ Server-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/server-devel
Re: [Server-devel] [GENERAL] Pg 8.3 tuning recommendations for embedded low-memory device (for OLPC :-) )
On Monday 15 September 2008 02:42:32 Greg Smith wrote: On Mon, 15 Sep 2008, Martin Langhoff wrote: +max_prepared_transactions = 5 That is the default on 8.3, am guessing you just uncommented it but didn't change. If you're not actually using prepared transactions anywhere, you may very well be able to drive memory use down a touch more by lowering this to zero. If you're not sure, the easy but somewhat harsh way to find out is to set it that low on a test system and see if everything still works. If you're using them, 5 is actually too low; you'd want one for every connection to be safe. neither moodle or mediawiki should be using prepared transactions. +wal_writer_delay = 1000ms Presumably your goal is to lower how often transactions get written to disk to lower overhead, right? You mentioned in your first message you could handle some of that even if it's at the expense of robustness on crash. In that case, what you also need to set here is: synchronous_commit = off When then lets wal_writer_delay do what I think you want. See http://www.postgresql.org/docs/8.3/interactive/wal-async-commit.html for more info. Other than that little bit of tweaking, it looks like you've got a good handle on the memory allocation model. The other parameter you should be setting is effective_cache_size, to about how much total RAM is available for PostgreSQL to use including the OS buffer cache. That's probably at least 1/2 of the RAM in each system, you can look at what's leftover after the system is running to get a rough value there. This is only used for estimating what size of queries could be handled by the system, it's not a memory allocation. Call me crazy, but I think you need to drop postgres and maybe even template0 databases from the system, just to reduce overall footprint, plus gives you less databases to have to keep track of wrt autovacuum and such. Also, if your disk is limited, you might want to play with the autovacuum_max_freeze_age and the corresponding vacuum settings to try and reduce pg_clog size. -- Robert Treat Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL ___ Server-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/server-devel
Re: [Server-devel] [GENERAL] Pg 8.3 tuning recommendations for embedded low-memory device (for OLPC :-) )
On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 3:46 PM, Martin Langhoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 8:36 AM, Robert Treat [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Call me crazy, but I think you need to drop postgres and maybe even template0 databases from the system, just to reduce overall footprint, plus gives you less databases to have to keep track of wrt autovacuum and such. What would be the impact of running w/o postgres and template0? They seem to take 13MB on a freshly init'd Pg -- I can afford to have them there if needed. In general, I am not expecting to be super-tight on disk... (not yet at least) template0 is the database used in case of emergency to restore template1 should you do something stupid. Generally it's never used. postgres is the database that all the command line utils (createdb, vacuumdb, etc) all use to connect to. ___ Server-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/server-devel
Re: [Server-devel] Edublog: How do I submit bug fixes upstream to ou blog?
Hi Taran, I would post to the Moodle general developer forum and try and attract the attention of Sam Marshal from the Open University, he's the person that maintains the OU Blog code base and has been preparing the OUBlog for release into moodle contrib. Cheers, Matt. Martin Langhoff wrote: On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 5:27 AM, Tarun Pondicherry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm curious how to get some bug fixes upstream into ou blog. I think its not maintained by Moodle right? I'm trying to figure out also where to get the latest ou blog code to see if those bugs are there. Mostly, just a couple lines that need to check if other ou things are installed to prevent execution from stopping when those other features are not present. That's a good question. My guess is: in the general devel forum in moodle.org. Copying Matt Clarkson as he's the main dev for it. cheers, m -- Matt Clarkson Catalyst.Net Limited P O Box 11053, Wellington http://catalyst.net.nz ddi +64 4 803-2390 cell +64 21 807-007 ___ Server-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/server-devel
Re: Keeping Trac(k)
Hi Bert, On 19 Sep 2008, at 13:27, Bert Freudenberg wrote: For keeping up with new Trac tickets I discovered this RSS feed: http://dev.laptop.org/timeline?ticket=onmax=50daysback=7format=rss ... which only has entries for opened and closed tickets. This is much more bearable than subscribing to the bug notify list. Even better would be if I could filter that by component :) I think you can, I just made up a quick track query and my browser (Safari) indicates an RSS feed is available, can then subscribe. Here's the URI it gave me for new+reopened and Action is test in build: feed://dev.laptop.org/query?status=newstatus=reopenedcol=idcol=summarycol=statuscol=typecol=prioritycol=milestonecol=componentnext_action=test+in+buildformat=rss --Gary ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Keeping Trac(k)
Am 19.09.2008 um 19:07 schrieb Gary C Martin: Hi Bert, On 19 Sep 2008, at 13:27, Bert Freudenberg wrote: For keeping up with new Trac tickets I discovered this RSS feed: http://dev.laptop.org/timeline?ticket=onmax=50daysback=7format=rss ... which only has entries for opened and closed tickets. This is much more bearable than subscribing to the bug notify list. Even better would be if I could filter that by component :) I think you can, I just made up a quick track query and my browser (Safari) indicates an RSS feed is available, can then subscribe. Here's the URI it gave me for new+reopened and Action is test in build: feed://dev.laptop.org/query?status=newstatus=reopenedcol=idcol=summarycol=statuscol=typecol=prioritycol=milestonecol=componentnext_action=test+in+buildformat=rss This does not give me the tickets created or closed in the last 7 days. I want a filtered timeline: http://dev.laptop.org/timeline - Bert - ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] Supporting desktop applications, extending the EWMH spec
On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 12:13 AM, Benjamin M. Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Let's keep thinking about this. For example, I wonder what Metacity does to a window that is both _NET_WM_STATE_FULLSCREEN and _NET_WM_STATE_BELOW? Does it stack it below the Frame, if the Frame is _NET_WM_TYPE_DOCK and _NET_WM_STATE_ABOVE? If not, could we convince the Metacity developers that this is a good idea? I just thought of a worst problem with the FULLSCREEN approach. FULLSCREEN windows are always on the top of NORMAL windows. I think the general issue is that the meaning of FULLSCREEN type on the desktop is very different from our needs, sincethe typical use case is a video player. The type is used to mark windows which must be: 1 Always on the top of everything else. 2 Maximized/undecorated. We would need to drop 1. What about making Activities run as _NET_WM_TYPE_DESKTOP? How does Metacity handle multiple DESKTOP windows? (It probably isn't happy about them...) I'm pretty sure it won't handle them as we would like. Also DESKTOP is used for the home/group/mesh view already. It may be that we can find a way to make this work under stock Metacity if we're creative. If not, Metacity is under very active development. Perhaps we can find a small change that resolves our problem and is satisfying to upstream Metacity. It could be done by extending metacity (upstream) to provide an option to enable a different handling of FULLSCREEN windows. But what is the advantage over defining a new type which is more closely tied to our use case? The one I can think of is that existing toolkits has already a way to create fullscreen windows without using low level API. Marco ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] Supporting desktop applications, extending the EWMH spec
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Marco Pesenti Gritti wrote: | On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 12:13 AM, Benjamin M. Schwartz | [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Let's keep thinking about this. For example, I wonder what Metacity does | to a window that is both _NET_WM_STATE_FULLSCREEN and | _NET_WM_STATE_BELOW? Does it stack it below the Frame, if the Frame is | _NET_WM_TYPE_DOCK and _NET_WM_STATE_ABOVE? If not, could we convince the | Metacity developers that this is a good idea? | | I just thought of a worst problem with the FULLSCREEN approach. | FULLSCREEN windows are always on the top of NORMAL windows. Why is this a problem? When do we need an Activity to be visible, full-screen, and yet below a NORMAL window? - --Ben -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkjT7zMACgkQUJT6e6HFtqRNUgCeIEI1prZOLgGWycAdRcGCefq4 LUgAn0jMC1yiHd2LkOAhZ/iPYwoJHyi6 =IHRK -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] Supporting desktop applications, extending the EWMH spec
On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 2:00 PM, Marco Pesenti Gritti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 12:13 AM, Benjamin M. Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Let's keep thinking about this. For example, I wonder what Metacity does to a window that is both _NET_WM_STATE_FULLSCREEN and _NET_WM_STATE_BELOW? Does it stack it below the Frame, if the Frame is _NET_WM_TYPE_DOCK and _NET_WM_STATE_ABOVE? If not, could we convince the Metacity developers that this is a good idea? I just thought of a worst problem with the FULLSCREEN approach. FULLSCREEN windows are always on the top of NORMAL windows. I think the general issue is that the meaning of FULLSCREEN type on the desktop is very different from our needs, sincethe typical use case is a video player. The type is used to mark windows which must be: 1 Always on the top of everything else. 2 Maximized/undecorated. We would need to drop 1. What about making Activities run as _NET_WM_TYPE_DESKTOP? How does Metacity handle multiple DESKTOP windows? (It probably isn't happy about them...) I'm pretty sure it won't handle them as we would like. Also DESKTOP is used for the home/group/mesh view already. It may be that we can find a way to make this work under stock Metacity if we're creative. If not, Metacity is under very active development. Perhaps we can find a small change that resolves our problem and is satisfying to upstream Metacity. It could be done by extending metacity (upstream) to provide an option to enable a different handling of FULLSCREEN windows. But what is the advantage over defining a new type which is more closely tied to our use case? The one I can think of is that existing toolkits has already a way to create fullscreen windows without using low level API. Are we set on moving to metacity? I remember murmurs of using xmonad, as well as another wm I can't remember the name of. Are these stacking/hinting problems common to all window mangers, or just metacity? bobby Marco ___ Sugar mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] Supporting desktop applications, extending the EWMH spec
On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 8:30 PM, Bobby Powers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are we set on moving to metacity? I remember murmurs of using xmonad, as well as another wm I can't remember the name of. Are these stacking/hinting problems common to all window mangers, or just metacity? They are common to all standard compliant window manager. To be honest I haven't even looked into the metacity implementation in detail yet. I'm trying to figure out something that make sense on the base of the EWMH specification. Marco ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] Supporting desktop applications, extending the EWMH spec
On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 8:55 PM, Marco Pesenti Gritti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 8:30 PM, Bobby Powers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are we set on moving to metacity? I remember murmurs of using xmonad, as well as another wm I can't remember the name of. Are these stacking/hinting problems common to all window mangers, or just metacity? They are common to all standard compliant window manager. To be honest I haven't even looked into the metacity implementation in detail yet. I'm trying to figure out something that make sense on the base of the EWMH specification. Btw the main reason we are considering metacity is that it uses several of the libraries used for the Sugar UI (gobject, gtk, gconf etc). Marco ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Ideas for Journal: How epiphany browser manages bookmarks just with tags
On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 2:31 PM, Eduardo H. Silva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ideas for Journal: How epiphany browser manages bookmarks just with tags (and does it nicely, with potential of improving of course). I made a screenshot slide-show of how tagging and the dynamic bookmarks menu based solely on tags work in Gnome's Epiphany browser. I hope this can be usefull to gather ideas for how the tagging system in the Journal could work. This could also be helpful if tagging in the future can be done within activities, so that they are easily, and thus more often, used. I show how in Epiphany: tags are searched; tags are suggested; pre-existing and new tags are added; tags are presented; and how tagged bookmarks are organized in a menu. The size is a bit big because of all the screenshots, it's 46.7 MB . C_scott uploaded it for me, at http://dev.laptop.org/~cscott/eduardo-epiphany-tags.pdf Eduardo Eben, Eduardo, and I have been chatting about this some over IRC. What I find most interesting here is how *filesystem paths* (well, URL paths in this particular case) are integrated with tags. For example, when you type 'fsf', both 'http://fsf.org/' and other things tagged with 'fsf' show up. This ties in with one of my frustrations with google's tag system: I have olpc, olpc-fedora, olpc-sugar, olpc-sugarlabs, etc tags in google, when what I really want is 'olpc/fedora', 'olpc/sugar', etc. Sometimes I want to see all olpc-related mail, sometimes only sugar-related olpc mail, etc. If you accept that tags can sometimes be ordered, so that a/b is different than b/a (although both will show up on searches for 'a' and 'b'), then this starts looking more and more like a way to view filesystems as well, for those old enough to want to do that. If you have files in ~/Journal/Music/Bach/Disc1 and ~/Journal/Music/Beethoven/Disc1, you can search for 'Bach', 'Music Bach' as well as 'Bach/Disc1' or 'Music/Bach/Disc1' if you want to be specific. When you insert a USB key with files in a directory called 'Music/Mozart', they appear in the journal as if they were tagged 'Music/Mozart' and you can search for 'Mozart' or 'Music' to find them. When I copy them to my XO, the tags come with, and I have operations to retag groups of files that are the result of a search (which can look very much like groups of files which are in a specific directory). Rather than having two separate views for 'hierarchy' and 'journal', this unifies them so achieve a more consistent and growable interface: you don't have to discard everything you know and learn a new metaphor and interface when you start to use 'folders'. From irc: (02:18:45 PM) C. Scott Ananian: by default searches will be confined to ~/Journal; the real question is how to search *outside* that directory. (02:18:51 PM) HoboPrimate: look at nautilus (02:19:04 PM) HoboPrimate: you see the directories as buttons. (02:19:19 PM) HoboPrimate: imagine seeing just a Journal button there (02:19:24 PM) HoboPrimate: below, the search box (02:19:33 PM) HoboPrimate: this would mean, you are searching within the journal only (02:19:49 PM) HoboPrimate: now, if you click on the journal button, it expands to allow changing it [...] (02:21:59 PM) C. Scott Ananian: HoboPrimate: well, in my ideal world you could apply a tag to any file (02:22:05 PM) C. Scott Ananian: HoboPrimate: it will just be a special xattr (02:22:27 PM) HoboPrimate: that would rock. (02:22:45 PM) HoboPrimate: so tagging wouldn't be a Journal specific thing, but (02:23:04 PM) HoboPrimate: be propagated when you move the file to other non-sugar but xattr aware systems (02:23:14 PM) C. Scott Ananian: yes The dynamic tag suggestion and ordering stuff that epiphany has (nicely presented by eduardo) would be directly applicable; all we need is the special idea that *all files are tagged by default by their path* and *there are special ordered tags* to extend the journal into a filesystem browser. Browsing a directly hierarchy feels just like browsing through tag sets; once I pick the 'Music/' tag, the 'Music/Bach' and 'Music/Beethoven' tags show up as possible extensions to my search. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] Supporting desktop applications, extending the EWMH spec
On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 8:28 PM, Benjamin M. Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | I just thought of a worst problem with the FULLSCREEN approach. | FULLSCREEN windows are always on the top of NORMAL windows. Why is this a problem? When do we need an Activity to be visible, full-screen, and yet below a NORMAL window? Oh, I had missed the focused bit of this parth of EWMH: focused windows having state _NET_WM_STATE_FULLSCREEN I'm more convinced about this approach after having played with it in GNOME (with fullscreen applications like terminal, totem and epiphany). As far as I can tell so far the only issue is to keep the frame always on top, but there are ways to deal with that. Sayamindu, what do you think? Should we experiment with this approach? Give it a try in GNOME... Marco ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] Supporting desktop applications, extending the EWMH spec
On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 4:07 PM, Sayamindu Dasgupta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Marco and I have been discussing on how to make a window manager like Metacity fit into the Sugar environment, and based on our current discussions, as well as past discussions, it seems clear that we need changes to the Extended Window Manager Hints spec[1]. For details on I think you are confusing the role of the Window Manager. When I run sugar under metacity, I don't *want* my activities to be full screen. When I use a windowing wm, I expect them to be in (decorated) windows. Ideally, the sugar home view would run on root, like in nautilus. On the XO, we are using a special tiling window manager. You can use a window manager like XMonad on your non-XO if you want that style of window management. That's a window manager property, sugar activities should have nothing to do with it. When I'm running Browse in my window, and then select Fullscreen mode, *then* it applies the full screen hint, and really *does* run full screen. This is just like Firefox does. Some of the links at the top of http://wiki.laptop.org/go/9.1.0#Suggestions_from_User:CScott point to window managers we could run on the XO to provide better support of the 'each activity has a full screen' window management mode. Further, they offer better support of 'floating layers', so that an application like the gimp can have a 'full screen' layer all to itself *in which* it can have several different (decorated) windows. Something like having a dedicated virtual desktop per activity. I suppose we could add a new hint for some activities indicating which of their multiple windows (if any) should be the 'background' one mapped full-screen, but I believe the existing hints are adequate. Playing around with the gimp in XMonad may be instructive. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] Supporting desktop applications, extending the EWMH spec
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 We are talking about replacing Matchbox with Metacity in the XO build of Sugar. C. Scott Ananian wrote: | When I run | sugar under metacity, I don't *want* my activities to be full screen. I think you mean When I run Sugar inside a standard desktop environment on a computer with a large monitor... | Some of the links at the top of | http://wiki.laptop.org/go/9.1.0#Suggestions_from_User:CScott point to | window managers we could run on the XO to provide better support of | the 'each activity has a full screen' window management mode. That is the role for which we are discussing Metacity. - --Ben -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkjT/m4ACgkQUJT6e6HFtqQ2dQCgmcNRf5982XIG3oIMEXaB4pG4 IrEAn3XbUFrVPOuMy0cJ13U7V6l2xvd5 =JLrm -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Supporting desktop applications, extending the EWMH spec
On Fri, 19 Sep 2008, Sayamindu Dasgupta wrote: Hello all, Marco and I have been discussing on how to make a window manager like Metacity fit into the Sugar environment, and based on our current discussions, as well as past discussions, it seems clear that we need changes to the Extended Window Manager Hints spec[1]. For details on why we want to do that, take a look at the first draft of the proposal at http://dev.laptop.org/~sayamindu/sugar_metacity/draft_1.txt The simplest way to do this is mentioned in the draft, namely, to have a new _NET_WM_WINDOW_TYPE hint, called _NET_WM_WINDOW_TYPE_NETBOOK_APP (feel free to suggest a better name :-P). All sugar activities are hinted as _NET_WM_WINDOW_TYPE_NETBOOK_APP, and the window manager maximizes and undecorates them. _NET_WM_WINDOW_KIOSK would seem to be a little better to me. netbook_app seems to imply something hardware specific, and it's not at all clear that it's appropriate for all netbooks. kiosk mode implies a specific type of use, which isn't quite the same thing, but I think the effect of it would be the same, and that is a term that's already understood. However, Marco suggests that for applications like Firefox, or Thunderbird, we may actually want them to be in maximized+undecorated in Sugar as well, to maximize screen real estate usage. In such a situation, things become a bit more complicated. Marco suggests a double hint, some thing like _NET_WM_WINDOW_TYPE_NORMAL | _NET_WM_WINDOW_TYPE_APPLICATION. In a normal desktop environment the second _NET_WM_WINDOW_TYPE_APPLICATION will not have any effect, but in Sugar, _NET_WM_WINDOW_TYPE_APPLICATION will be honoured, and windows having this hint will be maximized + undecorated. However, this brings up two problems a) applications like firefox will need to be modified so that they set the _NET_WM_WINDOW_TYPE_APPLICATION hint (ideally we would like to run the applications unmodified). b) one of the major reasons why we can do away with the decorations in case of sugar activities is that they are designed to work well without decorations (eg: a large close button on the window itself). otoh, most desktop applications do not have this, and the close button is usually somewhere hidden in the menu. In some cases the close button may not be accessible at all (eg: a rogue popup in firefox which somehow circumvents the popup blocker and disables the menubar). Note that this is a problem with the existing Firefox activity as well. you can't cover every case, but even if the menubar is disabled, the keystroke combination to close the window works. David Lang ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] Supporting desktop applications, extending the EWMH spec
On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 9:26 PM, C. Scott Ananian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think you are confusing the role of the Window Manager. When I run sugar under metacity, I don't *want* my activities to be full screen. When I use a windowing wm, I expect them to be in (decorated) windows. Yeah, ideally it should work like that. That's the main point I was trying to make about both Sayamindu and Benjamin proposal. Ideally, the sugar home view would run on root, like in nautilus. This should already work fine. I suppose we could add a new hint for some activities indicating which of their multiple windows (if any) should be the 'background' one mapped full-screen, but I believe the existing hints are adequate. That's what the PRIMARY/APPLICATION was meant to be in my proposal... I'm not sure the existing hints are adeguate, but if there are window managers which manage to deal with the gimp correctly, then I guess there are at least ways to make reasonable guesses. Marco ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] Supporting desktop applications, extending the EWMH spec
On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 3:33 PM, Benjamin M. Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 We are talking about replacing Matchbox with Metacity in the XO build of Sugar. Right, I think that's where you're going wrong. You should be considering replacing Matchbox with a better window manager. Metacity is the wrong one. | When I run | sugar under metacity, I don't *want* my activities to be full screen. I think you mean When I run Sugar inside a standard desktop environment on a computer with a large monitor... No, I mean what I said. Who says 1200x900 is small? | Some of the links at the top of | http://wiki.laptop.org/go/9.1.0#Suggestions_from_User:CScott point to | window managers we could run on the XO to provide better support of | the 'each activity has a full screen' window management mode. That is the role for which we are discussing Metacity. again, that's probably not the right window manager to be looking at. Metacity is not designed to do this, and the maintainer does not like to add cruft to it. It is the poster child of the *non*extensible, *do things only one way* window manager. Not the right one for this. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] Supporting desktop applications, extending the EWMH spec
On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Marco Pesenti Gritti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I suppose we could add a new hint for some activities indicating which of their multiple windows (if any) should be the 'background' one mapped full-screen, but I believe the existing hints are adequate. That's what the PRIMARY/APPLICATION was meant to be in my proposal... I'm not sure the existing hints are adeguate, but if there are window managers which manage to deal with the gimp correctly, then I guess there are at least ways to make reasonable guesses. Well, if there's only one window, and it's stretchable, then your decision is easy. If it requests a fixed size, then you should probably decorate and float all the windows. I could also see floating all fixed size windows and tiling all stretchable windows -- that would make the 'gimp' work nicely; all the palettes would be floating and all the drawings would be tiled. And that's using only the stretchable hint. =) I'm not entirely opposed to adding new hints for oddball apps, but I'd like 99% of apps to work as-is, and from my review of the wms out there, it seems quite plausible that we can do this. FWIW, the wm itself can add hints based on window class for outliers, without requiring the outliers themselves to be changed. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] Supporting desktop applications, extending the EWMH spec
On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 9:43 PM, C. Scott Ananian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, if there's only one window, and it's stretchable, then your decision is easy. If it requests a fixed size, then you should probably decorate and float all the windows. I could also see floating all fixed size windows and tiling all stretchable windows -- that would make the 'gimp' work nicely; all the palettes would be floating and all the drawings would be tiled. And that's using only the stretchable hint. =) I'm not entirely opposed to adding new hints for oddball apps, but I'd like 99% of apps to work as-is, and from my review of the wms out there, it seems quite plausible that we can do this. FWIW, the wm itself can add hints based on window class for outliers, without requiring the outliers themselves to be changed. I see you mention three window managers on your page (including metacity). It would nice to see a quick analysis of their strengths/weaknesses for our use case... If we go with this approach, Sugar itself is likely to require small or no changes and I can just let you and Sayamindu deal with all of it :) Marco ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] Supporting desktop applications, extending the EWMH spec
On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 12:49 AM, Marco Pesenti Gritti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 8:28 PM, Benjamin M. Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | I just thought of a worst problem with the FULLSCREEN approach. | FULLSCREEN windows are always on the top of NORMAL windows. Why is this a problem? When do we need an Activity to be visible, full-screen, and yet below a NORMAL window? Oh, I had missed the focused bit of this parth of EWMH: focused windows having state _NET_WM_STATE_FULLSCREEN I'm more convinced about this approach after having played with it in GNOME (with fullscreen applications like terminal, totem and epiphany). As far as I can tell so far the only issue is to keep the frame always on top, but there are ways to deal with that. Sayamindu, what do you think? Should we experiment with this approach? Give it a try in GNOME... I took a look, and it does seem promising. However, in this case, we need to figure out how to circumvent our existing fullscreen code. For the frame, setting it to have _NET_WM_STATE_ABOVE might help. Thanks, Sayamindu -- Sayamindu Dasgupta [http://sayamindu.randomink.org/ramblings] ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] Supporting desktop applications, extending the EWMH spec
On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 12:56 AM, C. Scott Ananian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 4:07 PM, Sayamindu Dasgupta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Marco and I have been discussing on how to make a window manager like Metacity fit into the Sugar environment, and based on our current discussions, as well as past discussions, it seems clear that we need changes to the Extended Window Manager Hints spec[1]. For details on I think you are confusing the role of the Window Manager. When I run sugar under metacity, I don't *want* my activities to be full screen. When I use a windowing wm, I expect them to be in (decorated) windows. Ideally, the sugar home view would run on root, like in nautilus. Metacity was provided just as an example. The issue here is that we want to replace Matchbox with something which would let us support normal desktop applications better, ideally without requiring any kind of modification to the applications themselves. (better support, for instance means, not messing up The Gimp) On the XO, we are using a special tiling window manager. You can use a window manager like XMonad on your non-XO if you want that style of window management. That's a window manager property, sugar activities should have nothing to do with it. Agreed. But are sugar activities (or rather, should sugar applications be) the same as normal desktop applications from a window manager peerspective. When I'm running Browse in my window, and then select Fullscreen mode, *then* it applies the full screen hint, and really *does* run full screen. This is just like Firefox does. Yes, that is why I'm still somewhat opposed to running all our activities with the FULLSCREEN hint permanently on - IMO, we need to differentiate between the two modes of an application or an activity, and the window manager needs to know about that. Thanks, Sayamindu -- Sayamindu Dasgupta [http://sayamindu.randomink.org/ramblings] ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] Supporting desktop applications, extending the EWMH spec
On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 1:13 AM, C. Scott Ananian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Marco Pesenti Gritti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I suppose we could add a new hint for some activities indicating which of their multiple windows (if any) should be the 'background' one mapped full-screen, but I believe the existing hints are adequate. That's what the PRIMARY/APPLICATION was meant to be in my proposal... I'm not sure the existing hints are adeguate, but if there are window managers which manage to deal with the gimp correctly, then I guess there are at least ways to make reasonable guesses. Well, if there's only one window, and it's stretchable, then your decision is easy. If it requests a fixed size, then you should probably decorate and float all the windows. I could also see floating all fixed size windows and tiling all stretchable windows -- that would make the 'gimp' work nicely; all the palettes would be floating and all the drawings would be tiled. And that's using only the stretchable hint. =) GIMP is stretchable. It looks ugly when it is stretched too much, but you can stretch it or even maximize it if you want. Thanks, Sayamindu -- Sayamindu Dasgupta [http://sayamindu.randomink.org/ramblings] ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] Ideas for Journal: How epiphany browser manages bookmarks just with tags
On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 3:59 PM, Eduardo H. Silva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2008/9/19 C. Scott Ananian [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 2:31 PM, Eduardo H. Silva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ideas for Journal: How epiphany browser manages bookmarks just with tags (and does it nicely, with potential of improving of course). I made a screenshot slide-show of how tagging and the dynamic bookmarks menu based solely on tags work in Gnome's Epiphany browser. I hope this can be usefull to gather ideas for how the tagging system in the Journal could work. This could also be helpful if tagging in the future can be done within activities, so that they are easily, and thus more often, used. I show how in Epiphany: tags are searched; tags are suggested; pre-existing and new tags are added; tags are presented; and how tagged bookmarks are organized in a menu. The size is a bit big because of all the screenshots, it's 46.7 MB . C_scott uploaded it for me, at http://dev.laptop.org/~cscott/eduardo-epiphany-tags.pdf Eduardo Eben, Eduardo, and I have been chatting about this some over IRC. What I find most interesting here is how *filesystem paths* (well, URL paths in this particular case) are integrated with tags. For example, when you type 'fsf', both 'http://fsf.org/' and other things tagged with 'fsf' show up. This ties in with one of my frustrations with google's tag system: I have olpc, olpc-fedora, olpc-sugar, olpc-sugarlabs, etc tags in google, when what I really want is 'olpc/fedora', 'olpc/sugar', etc. Sometimes I want to see all olpc-related mail, sometimes only sugar-related olpc mail, etc. If you accept that tags can sometimes be ordered, so that a/b is different than b/a (although both will show up on searches for 'a' and 'b'), then this starts looking more and more like a way to view filesystems as well, for those old enough to want to do that. I don't follow this. Thinking in Journal terms, where currently the only access is through the search box, you could search for olpc sugarlabs to see your olpc-sugar e-mails, or olpc to see all which fit under olpc, i.e. olpc-fedora+olpc-sugarlabs+olpc-sugar. A search which doesn't work if you follow the containerization way of directories, would be if you searched just for sugarlabs . This would give you olpc-sugarlabs results, but also would find sugarlabs tagged entries which didn't belong to the olpc- root (like a logo of Sugarlabs, or some document about it). To go back to the way Gmail works, or should work, would be having the ability to assign multiple tags to each label, i.e., make them be virtual folders. So in your case you would have one which showed results with tags olpc, sugar, another olpc, fedora, and olpc, sugar, and olpc, sugarlabs. Then you could still have one just with tag olpc which would show all of the above, or you could just search for olpc tagged entries giving all of the above as well. So I agree that some kind of containerization is needed, but not in the form of a/b being different than b/a, but by using virtual folders or saved searches which would effectively act as virtual folders, with specific tags, search terms, object types, even a period of time if you wished. I don't mean to belittle the utility of virtual folders (I think they're quite powerful), but you can also get a close approximation to them by applying a sufficiently unique tag to a group of items as well. In fact, a basic implementation of such a feature could do exactly that, requesting a name for the virtual folder and then tagging the selected items with vf:Name of virtual folder (or something similar, but you get the idea). The real question (I didn't overlook this!) regarding the concept of virtual folders (or, more specifically, saved searches) is whether or not they are dynamic. That is, does the saved search represent an expression or a value? My above tag idea is only valid, of course, when they are represented in value form. For more power (but more complexity) one would store the search terms, filters, etc. and re-apply them on the fly to a growing list. I'm not sure which of these is more desired. They both have merits. (Debian has had for some time debtags, which are a more advanced method of tagging objects originally developed for libraries, but I think is too formal for kids, since it would need for them to learn a new classification system to categorize their library of objects.) If you have files in ~/Journal/Music/Bach/Disc1 and ~/Journal/Music/Beethoven/Disc1, you can search for 'Bach', 'Music Bach' as well as 'Bach/Disc1' or 'Music/Bach/Disc1' if you want to be specific. When you insert a USB key with files in a directory called 'Music/Mozart', they appear in the journal as if they were tagged 'Music/Mozart' and you can search for 'Mozart' or 'Music' to find them. When I copy them to my XO, the tags come with, and I have operations to retag groups of
Re: [sugar] Supporting desktop applications, extending the EWMH spec
On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 1:26 AM, Marco Pesenti Gritti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 9:43 PM, C. Scott Ananian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, if there's only one window, and it's stretchable, then your decision is easy. If it requests a fixed size, then you should probably decorate and float all the windows. I could also see floating all fixed size windows and tiling all stretchable windows -- that would make the 'gimp' work nicely; all the palettes would be floating and all the drawings would be tiled. And that's using only the stretchable hint. =) I'm not entirely opposed to adding new hints for oddball apps, but I'd like 99% of apps to work as-is, and from my review of the wms out there, it seems quite plausible that we can do this. FWIW, the wm itself can add hints based on window class for outliers, without requiring the outliers themselves to be changed. I see you mention three window managers on your page (including metacity). It would nice to see a quick analysis of their strengths/weaknesses for our use case... Just a note that Xmonad seems to pull in 35 MBs of RPMs as dependencies. I'm not sure whether that is good for our storage space. Sayamindu -- Sayamindu Dasgupta [http://sayamindu.randomink.org/ramblings] ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Ideas for Journal: How epiphany browser manages bookmarks just with tags
On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 3:59 PM, Eduardo H. Silva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2008/9/19 C. Scott Ananian [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 2:31 PM, Eduardo H. Silva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you accept that tags can sometimes be ordered, so that a/b is different than b/a (although both will show up on searches for 'a' and 'b'), then this starts looking more and more like a way to view filesystems as well, for those old enough to want to do that. I don't follow this. Thinking in Journal terms, where currently the only access is through the search box, you could search for olpc sugarlabs to see your olpc-sugar e-mails, or olpc to see all which fit under olpc, i.e. olpc-fedora+olpc-sugarlabs+olpc-sugar. A search which doesn't work if you follow the containerization way of directories, would be if you searched just for sugarlabs . This would give you olpc-sugarlabs results, but also would find sugarlabs tagged entries which didn't belong to the olpc- root (like a logo of Sugarlabs, or some document about it). My example might not have been the best, but independent tags start having real problems when I have a lot of tags and many of the tags are duplicated. Some more examples: * jill/joe might be what jill thinks of joe, while joe/jill might be what joe thinks of jill. * techsquares/lists is email relating to the mailing lists I maintain for tech-squares, while lists contains all my subscription information for mailing lists I belong to, and lists/techsquares is thus my own mailman login for the techsquares list (which I'm on, as well as maintain). * The total list of tags in my gmail instance is very large! But the top-level list could be much smaller if I could order them hierarchically. So I agree that some kind of containerization is needed, but not in the form of a/b being different than b/a, but by using virtual folders or saved searches which would effectively act as virtual folders, with specific tags, search terms, object types, even a period of time if you wished. I think this is a separate functionality. This lets me take my 'techsquares/lists subscribe-requests' search and turn it into a top level tag. Containerization is meant to prevent all tags from becoming top level. Rather than having two separate views for 'hierarchy' and 'journal', this unifies them so achieve a more consistent and growable interface: you don't have to discard everything you know and learn a new metaphor and interface when you start to use 'folders'. I hope, like I said above, that virtual folders or saved searches (they're the same, just differently named) would replace static folders. They're complimentary. If you look at [[Olpcfs]], there's a way to navigate 'tag space' and even 'search space' as if it were a directory. Ordered tags are a way to navigate directory space as if it were a tag soup. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Greg S Weekly Report
Hi All, Here's my weekly report. They called for the report on Thursday AM this week so it doesn't cover work since then. Thanks, Greg S Status against last weeks goals: 1 - Hound engineers to close all 8.2.0 blockers (see http://dev.laptop.org/report/28) and get a firm date for the Release Candidate build. Triage bugs and keep the release on schedule. GS - Mostly done. Triaged all incoming bugs. Pushed to close blocking bugs which are awaiting final test. Planned meeting for final release decision. 2 - Clean up open bugs section of 8.2 release notes. Get release notes ready for final review. GS - Partially done. Started organizing bugs in to sections. 3 - Write 8.2 launch plan and technical overview presentation. GS - Not done. Collected product presentations from learning meeting as source material. 4 - Share and post 8.2.1 time frame and operating procedure (e.g. Trac queries). Start planning for Early Field Trial/Beta of 8.2.1. Keep pushing for an engineering leader/owner of 8.2.1. GS - Not done. 5 - Review and finalize short 9.1 strategy description. Restructure requirements section to align with strategy. Fold in more deployment requirements. Keep pushing for an engineering leader/owner of 9.1. Stretch goal: prepare to write detailed requirements sections and start scrubbing bugs to create working Trac queries. GS - Done on strategy section. Still looking for more comment. A few more deployment requests added, otherwise not done. 6 - Update deployments page. Update releases page and start using new semantic format (thanks to S Page for laying out the structure). Also update XS sections of releases page. GS - Not done. Other: met with deployment and education leads from Paraguay, Palestine, Wisconsin, Birmingham, Puerto Rico, and Colombia in 3 day Learning workshop. ** Goals for next week in priority order. 1 - Set final date for 8.2 release and test final release candidate. Finalize G1G1 activities and content. 2 - Final edit of 8.2 release notes. Get final review and approval by engineering and management. 3 - First draft 8.2 technical overview presentation. List plan for communication of new release. 4 - Keep adding to 9.1 and 8.2.1 plan. ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] Ideas for Journal: How epiphany browser manages bookmarks just with tags
On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 4:57 PM, Eben Eliason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Two) to get at the thing you're looking for. So, again, I'm not sure that order really matters. Of course, if it DID really matter for a reason I'm not presently considering, we could allow tags of the form: A/B To match on A, B, A B B A, and also A/B (but not B/A). In other words, the addition of the slash to the tag format is used similarly to the way quotes are used to group two tags into one. Instead of grouping, however, it orders instead. It's interesting, but I'm not sure I see a good utility there yet. I think there is compelling utility in terms of mapping tag space to a filesystem and back. I hope that (like quotes) there is not all that often when you need to use them -- but they are a useful power-user feature. The following are all related searches: A B-- matches these tag sets A B C, B A C, A/B C, B/A C, etc. A/B-- matches A/B, C/A/B, A/B/C, etc. B/A-- matches B/A, C/B/A, B/A/C, etc. A B -- matches 'A B' C, etc /A/B -- matches A/B/C but not C/A/B They express slightly different meanings, but in many cases will be indistinguishable from A B. I think they add a lot of power to the tag language, although naive users won't need to use it often. Completion on a search for A/B would suggest A/B/C if there is a 'subfolder' C; it would suggest A/B C if there was an item labelled with A/B and tag C. If a young user has never made subfolders, then the slash-separated options will never be suggested and all this power remains hidden. An interesting point Eduardo brought up was the relationship between folders and saved searches. Do tag completions (ie sub folders or related tags) show up in the journal itself, or only in a pane during a search? If they show up as first class objects, then it might be nice to have searches in general as first class objects. I think I'm arguing that tag completions are not the same thing as journal items, and only show up during a search. I could be convinced otherwise. Another interesting point: gmail's UI never lets you see the results of the 'empty' search (that is, all objects). By default the search is restricted to 'in:Inbox' and the easiest UI mechanisms always restrict the search to a 'folder'. You can click 'Search Mail' with an empty search query, though, and what you get is very similar to what one might imagine the Journal to be: a chronological list of all your email (activity instances), grouped by thread (version), with a list of clickable tags on each which you can use to find other similar emails (activity instances). Gmail does have a flexible 'rules' system to help automatically tag/categorize/file documents, though; it may be worthwhile thinking what the Journal could do in that regard. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Help activity: v6, final version very soon!
Help-6.xo is now available: http://teach.laptop.org/~mstone/Help-6.xohttp://teach.laptop.org/%7Emstone/Help-6.xo This version fixes the issue with images loading from FM's site, not the local versions of the images. re: http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/8558 We are coming up to a final deadline (which has been fuzzy until now) for shipping with the upcoming G1G1. There are a few final changes that need to be made including some chapter splits and merges. I will be logging tickets about each of these issues as I isolate them and publishing them to the library list. If you would like to help out when these emails go out, please reply to the library list and take-on the task. It sounds like after Monday it is going to get INCREDIBLY hard to make any updates to the help-bundle. I can only guarantee with any reasonable degree of certainty that updates made BY 10AM (EDT) will make it into the Shipped version of the XO software to be installed on the next round of Give One, Get One. To see my list of HAVE TO GET IMPROVED, see: http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/8568 Thank you everyone so very very much for working on the manual it's going to help many many new users :) -Seth ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] Supporting desktop applications, extending the EWMH spec
On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 4:50 PM, Sayamindu Dasgupta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Metacity was provided just as an example. The issue here is that we want to replace Matchbox with something which would let us support normal desktop applications better, ideally without requiring any kind of modification to the applications themselves. (better support, for instance means, not messing up The Gimp) +1 Agreed. But are sugar activities (or rather, should sugar applications be) the same as normal desktop applications from a window manager peerspective. Yes, for the most part. Inkscape or gnumeric running with one window open should look the same as a sugar activity. Things only start getting interesting when I open two documents simultaneously in inkscape. When I'm running Browse in my window, and then select Fullscreen mode, *then* it applies the full screen hint, and really *does* run full screen. This is just like Firefox does. Yes, that is why I'm still somewhat opposed to running all our activities with the FULLSCREEN hint permanently on - IMO, we need to differentiate between the two modes of an application or an activity, and the window manager needs to know about that. +1 GIMP is stretchable. It looks ugly when it is stretched too much, but you can stretch it or even maximize it if you want. wow, i never realized this. You're right. I was just trying to illustrate that the layout strategy doesn't have to be very complicated for most applications. Gimp does set reasonable window hints, and simply falling back to floating mode with window decorations when multiple non-dialog windows are mapped is a good first-draft wm policy. Just a note that Xmonad seems to pull in 35 MBs of RPMs as dependencies. I'm not sure whether that is good for our storage space. Wow. I think part of the reason is that Xmonad supports recompiling itself on the fly to allow you to dynamically edit the wm configuration, and so pulls in the entire Haskell compiler and all its libraries. I'm willing to bet that a static configuration could be made much smaller -- but that's clearly one of the issues that should be relevant in the final choice for wm. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] G1G1v2 Activities
On Thu, 18 Sep 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: benjamin m. schwartz wrote: Chris Ball wrote: | So, we shipped 19 activities with G1G1v1; that means the ten activities | people vote for here are likely to be a subset of that list, and we | aren't learning much about what new things we should include. People | replying might decide to give 20 suggestions instead of 10, or to omit | original G1G1 activities from their list. | Also, G1G1v1 shipped with the old Sugar interface, which made managing large numbers of installed Activities very difficult. By contrast, the new Sugar UI means that we could easily ship 100 Activities, with only 15 starred by default. Activities' average size on disk varies substantially, but many simpler ones are only about 100 KB, compressed. 100 Activities * 100 KB = 10 MB, or 1% of the disk. Each additional Activity provides more opportunity for exploration, and makes the experience more enjoyable, so I would advocate for shipping as many as possible. i disagree, to the extent that the activities appear on the laptop in a completely unorganized fashion -- there's no real notion of topic, or testedness, or age-appropriateness. too many can make the prospect of exploring them overwhelming, especially given how long it takes to try them, and that most of the names bear almost no relation to the content. i think it's better to ship a a good representative sample, and clear instructions (somewhere -- is it at least in a pre-loaded library page?) on how to explore and get more from our wiki. isn't there an activity to manage activities? is there any way to order them so that this one shows up first? If so, then I would say ship as close to everything as possible, with the idea that this management activity will help the user remove what they don't want easily. not everyone who's playing around with an XO has network connectivity, which makes it _far_ easier to remove stuff that you don't care about then to add additional stuff in later. I suspect that most of the G1G1 laptops out there are running the default set of activities. Also, if you don't know what types of activities exist, you won't go looking for them. if you have lots of samples it's far easier to think of other similar things to look for. In fact, thinking about this as I've been typing this message, I think it would be a _good_thing_ if there was an entry for every activity that's supported, even if all that the 'activity' consists of is a web page that shows what the activity is and has a link to download it (useful for activities that are otherwise too large or not appropriate for all ages) David Lang ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: G1G1v2 Activities
On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 10:01 PM, Gary C Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: However, any hints would be much appreciated as to what this last remaining setup.py WARNING is trying to tell me? WARNING:root:bundle_name deprecated, now comes from activity.info I've not had much luck tracking it down, and I make no reference to bundle_name in my code. When you call BundleBuilder in setup.py, don't pass in a string in the constructor, leave it empty. It interprets the argument as a 'bundle_name' and is complaining that it's going to ignore what you passed in and use the name specified in activity.info instead. Yes, it took me a *long* time to finally realize this. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: G1G1v2 Activities
On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 7:13 PM, Douglas Bagnall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If we're sticking to activities with valid activity.info files, then (AFAICT) we're limited to: Actually, we can only ship activities with valid license= tags in the activity.info files. I don't think many on your list qualify. But that doesn't matter at the moment -- we'll poke the authors to add appropriate license information (and host_version!) for the activities we decide to ship. Let's return to the original question: what activities should those be? Concentrating on activities *not* in the original G1G1 list, as cjb suggests, is probably a good idea -- although if there are any of those activities you activity *don't* think we should ship, that's probably of interest as well. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: G1G1v2 Activities
I vote very strongly for Ruler. It's less than 20kb non-compressed! It's too small *not* to include. Top Ten: 1.) Ruler 2.) Moon 3.) StarChart 4.) Bridge 5.) XaoS 6.) Frotz 7.) WikiBrowse Spanish 8.) Words 9.) Tumbleboy On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 7:48 AM, Marco Pesenti Gritti [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 1:10 PM, Gary C Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So I should keep both in my activity.info for backwards compatibility with early builds? This was change *long* time ago. I suspect your activity would not work for other reasons if run with such an old Sugar. Marco ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] Supporting desktop applications, extending the EWMH spec
Lots of discussion -- but I'm not sure how much benefit the Sugar *user* might receive. I think that everybody agrees (myself included) that the user must be able to call up the Frame anytime. And for typical Activities, the amount of screen real estate they *themselves* obstruct (which the Frame itself doesn't already obstruct) is small. Looks like a general mechanism to free up screen real estate ends up freeing mainly areas that get overlain anyway whenever Frame is called. To me, supporting multiple windows for one Activity is a much more pressing need than supporting full screen for every Activity. In the current Sugar implementation, alt-tab appears to provide an adequate way to navigate among such windows (i.e., screens) - but more discussion is needed about the role of Frame in this situation. I see nothing wrong with what some Activities already implement - by default they run with some areas obstructed by decorations -- but at the option of the user a short-cut removes those decorations. [Now if the discussion were about how to best implement such a facility - go to it. But it seems to me the discussion is leaning too far towards a let's free the Activity's limits crusade.] I think that to a user, gray circles left in Frame are of more immediate concern than shortcomings of using Matchbox with Sugar. mikus ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] Supporting desktop applications, extending the EWMH spec
On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 4:59 PM, Mikus Grinbergs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lots of discussion -- but I'm not sure how much benefit the Sugar *user* might receive. Some users will want to use gimp. Some will want to use metacity. To me, supporting multiple windows for one Activity is a much more pressing need than supporting full screen for every Activity. In the current Sugar implementation, alt-tab appears to provide an adequate way to navigate among such windows (i.e., screens) - but more discussion is needed about the role of Frame in this situation. I envision having one screen with multiple windows. Basically, each activity gets its own virtual desktop. You can either have these windows decorated or not, depending on whether you prefer tiled or overlapping window managers. I think that to a user, gray circles left in Frame are of more immediate concern than shortcomings of using Matchbox with Sugar. That would be my 'we should use the standard X startup notification mechanism' rant. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] G1G1v2 Activities
I wouldn't include Bridge yet. It's great, but not complete. I would include: WikiBrowse PlayGo Frotz Clock GCompris Chess GCompris Sudoku XaoS Moon StarChart ePals On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 5:53 PM, Seth Woodworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I vote very strongly for Ruler. It's less than 20kb non-compressed! It's too small *not* to include. Top Ten: 1.) Ruler 2.) Moon 3.) StarChart 4.) Bridge 5.) XaoS 6.) Frotz 7.) WikiBrowse Spanish 8.) Words 9.) Tumbleboy ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
G1G1 Pre-installed Activities Request for Help Testing
Hi All, Thanks a lot for the input on which activities to ship! Here is the list of activities I will to management as my suggestion on what we ship. Please help test these! See the end of the e-mail for instructions. The list I recommend is essentially the G1G1 activities (kudos to the team who chose the first set!). In addition to those I list a few which got repeated votes (except Chess and Sudoku which are a concession to SJ ;-) Original G1G1 activities: Browse Read Write Paint Record TamTam Jam, Mini, on fence: Synthlab, Edit, Chat Pippy Etoys Turtle Art Calculate Measure Distance Memorize Terminal Log Analyze New ones: Help Implode Speak Maze SimCity Scratch Xaos StarChart Moon GCompris Chess GCompris Sudoku The only significant change from the original G1G1 set is the TamTam. I think we should include 2 not 4 so as not to over weight them against other activities. Let me know if anyone has comments on that (Jean can you live with that?). Not all of these are sure to make it. On the other hand it's very unlikely that anything else will make it. So if you have an urgent request or a specific concern please speak up now. Of course, anyone can download additional activities so even if an activity is not on this list, it still attracts a lot of users. We need help testing these with the latest 8.2 image. We plan to make a release candidate today and if it passes smoke test we will add the activities and content to create a signed release candidate on Monday! Developers, Please reply with the final version and URL of each activity which we should include in the image. Each one must pass final test and have an active and reachable developer to make the final list. Morgan, can you make sure we have a contact e-mail and name on each of these? Also, let me know if you any of them are orphaned or not well maintained. All, Please test them all one more time let us know how it goes. I want to know if each of these passes the tests described here: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Test_cases_8.2.0#Activities Please create a new test case for any activity that needs one. To do that, go to this page: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Form:Test_case and entering Tests/Activities/nameofactivity to create a new test case. Then choose activity from the drop down and you can just paste in the steps test from above for a start. Then you can add a test result by clicking on the + sign next to the test case (it takes a little while for them to show up after creation). You can also e-mail comments or test results back to this list. Thanks a lot for your help. Thanks, Greg S ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: G1G1 Pre-installed Activities Request for Help Testing
What are your criteria? Are you ranking things by supportability and size? If so Ruler is a no-brainer. It's 20kb and is unlikely to break easily. On the other hand SimCity is hard to make drastic changes and still be called SimCity. It's currently buggy and has no active maintainer. On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 6:27 PM, Greg Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All, Thanks a lot for the input on which activities to ship! Here is the list of activities I will to management as my suggestion on what we ship. Please help test these! See the end of the e-mail for instructions. The list I recommend is essentially the G1G1 activities (kudos to the team who chose the first set!). In addition to those I list a few which got repeated votes (except Chess and Sudoku which are a concession to SJ ;-) Original G1G1 activities: Browse Read Write Paint Record TamTam Jam, Mini, on fence: Synthlab, Edit, Chat Pippy Etoys Turtle Art Calculate Measure Distance Memorize Terminal Log Analyze New ones: Help Implode Speak Maze SimCity Scratch Xaos StarChart Moon GCompris Chess GCompris Sudoku The only significant change from the original G1G1 set is the TamTam. I think we should include 2 not 4 so as not to over weight them against other activities. Let me know if anyone has comments on that (Jean can you live with that?). Not all of these are sure to make it. On the other hand it's very unlikely that anything else will make it. So if you have an urgent request or a specific concern please speak up now. Of course, anyone can download additional activities so even if an activity is not on this list, it still attracts a lot of users. We need help testing these with the latest 8.2 image. We plan to make a release candidate today and if it passes smoke test we will add the activities and content to create a signed release candidate on Monday! Developers, Please reply with the final version and URL of each activity which we should include in the image. Each one must pass final test and have an active and reachable developer to make the final list. Morgan, can you make sure we have a contact e-mail and name on each of these? Also, let me know if you any of them are orphaned or not well maintained. All, Please test them all one more time let us know how it goes. I want to know if each of these passes the tests described here: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Test_cases_8.2.0#Activities Please create a new test case for any activity that needs one. To do that, go to this page: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Form:Test_case and entering Tests/Activities/nameofactivity to create a new test case. Then choose activity from the drop down and you can just paste in the steps test from above for a start. Then you can add a test result by clicking on the + sign next to the test case (it takes a little while for them to show up after creation). You can also e-mail comments or test results back to this list. Thanks a lot for your help. Thanks, Greg S ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] Supporting desktop applications, extending the EWMH spec
On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 10:37 PM, C. Scott Ananian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The main changes required, I think, would actually be to the shell code to make it happy running on a root window. There's some reparenting magic that's done to make that work right; I'm not sure what you mean exactly here... The home/mesh/groups view are all inside a single DESKTOP window, which is the same as the nautilus desktop afaik. All the other windows will be stacked on the top of it. I was pointed to the xpenguins source for information on what that involves, I don't think it's a lot that needs to be done. We might have to tweak the frame implementation so that it speaks the same standard wm-communication language as the window selectors in the gnome panel, if it doesn't already; haven't looked at that. It's not because matchbox doesn't like it. Trivial to change. And, of course, I wanted to switch sugar to using the standard X activity startup notification mechanism, and the standard desktop notification mechanism. I'm not sure this is necessary. All the activities will be run by the shell in 0.84 and the UI feedback is in the shell. I don't think we need inter process communication. The only use case I can think of is running activities from the command line but that's minor, I don't even think gnome-terminal supports it. Something else which I think is necessary is to support the standard icon property. Should not be very difficult. Marco ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] Supporting desktop applications, extending the EWMH spec
On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 1:10 AM, Marco Pesenti Gritti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And, of course, I wanted to switch sugar to using the standard X activity startup notification mechanism, and the standard desktop notification mechanism. I'm not sure this is necessary. All the activities will be run by the shell in 0.84 and the UI feedback is in the shell. I don't think we need inter process communication. The only use case I can think of is running activities from the command line but that's minor, I don't even think gnome-terminal supports it. Scratch that, I lied... I hope the freedesktop spec is flexible enough to implement our kind of UI feedback. Marco ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] Supporting desktop applications, extending the EWMH spec
On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 7:16 PM, Marco Pesenti Gritti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 1:10 AM, Marco Pesenti Gritti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And, of course, I wanted to switch sugar to using the standard X activity startup notification mechanism, and the standard desktop notification mechanism. I'm not sure this is necessary. All the activities will be run by the shell in 0.84 and the UI feedback is in the shell. I don't think we need inter process communication. The only use case I can think of is running activities from the command line but that's minor, I don't even think gnome-terminal supports it. Scratch that, I lied... I hope the freedesktop spec is flexible enough to implement our kind of UI feedback. I read the spec, it seemed sane. Proof will be in the implementation, though, of course. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] Supporting desktop applications, extending the EWMH spec
On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 1:26 AM, C. Scott Ananian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Scratch that, I lied... I hope the freedesktop spec is flexible enough to implement our kind of UI feedback. I read the spec, it seemed sane. Proof will be in the implementation, though, of course. Yeah... Regarding implementation, gtk 2.14 added API to handle the launcher part: http://library.gnome.org/devel/gdk/stable/gdk-Application-launching.html Marco ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: G1G1 Pre-installed Activities Request for Help Testing
On 08-09-19, at 18:27, Greg Smith wrote: Hi All, Thanks a lot for the input on which activities to ship! Here is the list of activities I will to management as my suggestion on what we ship. Please help test these! See the end of the e-mail for instructions. The list I recommend is essentially the G1G1 activities (kudos to the team who chose the first set!). In addition to those I list a few which got repeated votes (except Chess and Sudoku which are a concession to SJ ;-) Original G1G1 activities: Browse Read Write Paint Record TamTam Jam, Mini, on fence: Synthlab, Edit, Chat Pippy Etoys Turtle Art Calculate Measure Distance Memorize Terminal Log Analyze New ones: Help Implode Speak Maze SimCity Scratch Xaos StarChart Moon GCompris Chess GCompris Sudoku The only significant change from the original G1G1 set is the TamTam. I think we should include 2 not 4 so as not to over weight them against other activities. Let me know if anyone has comments on that (Jean can you live with that?). Yes. However, I think Mini and Edit would be my picks. Your call. Not all of these are sure to make it. On the other hand it's very unlikely that anything else will make it. So if you have an urgent request or a specific concern please speak up now. Of course, anyone can download additional activities so even if an activity is not on this list, it still attracts a lot of users. We need help testing these with the latest 8.2 image. We plan to make a release candidate today and if it passes smoke test we will add the activities and content to create a signed release candidate on Monday! Developers, Please reply with the final version and URL of each activity which we should include in the image. Each one must pass final test and have an active and reachable developer to make the final list. Morgan, can you make sure we have a contact e-mail and name on each of these? Also, let me know if you any of them are orphaned or not well maintained. All, Please test them all one more time let us know how it goes. I want to know if each of these passes the tests described here: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Test_cases_8.2.0#Activities Please create a new test case for any activity that needs one. To do that, go to this page: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Form:Test_case and entering Tests/Activities/nameofactivity to create a new test case. Then choose activity from the drop down and you can just paste in the steps test from above for a start. Then you can add a test result by clicking on the + sign next to the test case (it takes a little while for them to show up after creation). You can also e-mail comments or test results back to this list. Thanks a lot for your help. Thanks, Greg S ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Ideas for Journal: How epiphany browser manages bookmarks just with tags
2008/9/19 C. Scott Ananian [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 2:31 PM, Eduardo H. Silva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ideas for Journal: How epiphany browser manages bookmarks just with tags (and does it nicely, with potential of improving of course). I made a screenshot slide-show of how tagging and the dynamic bookmarks menu based solely on tags work in Gnome's Epiphany browser. I hope this can be usefull to gather ideas for how the tagging system in the Journal could work. This could also be helpful if tagging in the future can be done within activities, so that they are easily, and thus more often, used. I show how in Epiphany: tags are searched; tags are suggested; pre-existing and new tags are added; tags are presented; and how tagged bookmarks are organized in a menu. The size is a bit big because of all the screenshots, it's 46.7 MB . C_scott uploaded it for me, at http://dev.laptop.org/~cscott/eduardo-epiphany-tags.pdf Eduardo Eben, Eduardo, and I have been chatting about this some over IRC. What I find most interesting here is how *filesystem paths* (well, URL paths in this particular case) are integrated with tags. For example, when you type 'fsf', both 'http://fsf.org/' and other things tagged with 'fsf' show up. This ties in with one of my frustrations with google's tag system: I have olpc, olpc-fedora, olpc-sugar, olpc-sugarlabs, etc tags in google, when what I really want is 'olpc/fedora', 'olpc/sugar', etc. Sometimes I want to see all olpc-related mail, sometimes only sugar-related olpc mail, etc. If you accept that tags can sometimes be ordered, so that a/b is different than b/a (although both will show up on searches for 'a' and 'b'), then this starts looking more and more like a way to view filesystems as well, for those old enough to want to do that. I don't follow this. Thinking in Journal terms, where currently the only access is through the search box, you could search for olpc sugarlabs to see your olpc-sugar e-mails, or olpc to see all which fit under olpc, i.e. olpc-fedora+olpc-sugarlabs+olpc-sugar. A search which doesn't work if you follow the containerization way of directories, would be if you searched just for sugarlabs . This would give you olpc-sugarlabs results, but also would find sugarlabs tagged entries which didn't belong to the olpc- root (like a logo of Sugarlabs, or some document about it). To go back to the way Gmail works, or should work, would be having the ability to assign multiple tags to each label, i.e., make them be virtual folders. So in your case you would have one which showed results with tags olpc, sugar, another olpc, fedora, and olpc, sugar, and olpc, sugarlabs. Then you could still have one just with tag olpc which would show all of the above, or you could just search for olpc tagged entries giving all of the above as well. So I agree that some kind of containerization is needed, but not in the form of a/b being different than b/a, but by using virtual folders or saved searches which would effectively act as virtual folders, with specific tags, search terms, object types, even a period of time if you wished. (Debian has had for some time debtags, which are a more advanced method of tagging objects originally developed for libraries, but I think is too formal for kids, since it would need for them to learn a new classification system to categorize their library of objects.) If you have files in ~/Journal/Music/Bach/Disc1 and ~/Journal/Music/Beethoven/Disc1, you can search for 'Bach', 'Music Bach' as well as 'Bach/Disc1' or 'Music/Bach/Disc1' if you want to be specific. When you insert a USB key with files in a directory called 'Music/Mozart', they appear in the journal as if they were tagged 'Music/Mozart' and you can search for 'Mozart' or 'Music' to find them. When I copy them to my XO, the tags come with, and I have operations to retag groups of files that are the result of a search (which can look very much like groups of files which are in a specific directory). Yep, I think this is a good idea to move files from a hierarchical system to a non hierarchical system (the Journal) and still reuse the information contained in that first organizational system. Rather than having two separate views for 'hierarchy' and 'journal', this unifies them so achieve a more consistent and growable interface: you don't have to discard everything you know and learn a new metaphor and interface when you start to use 'folders'. I hope, like I said above, that virtual folders or saved searches (they're the same, just differently named) would replace static folders. From irc: (02:18:45 PM) C. Scott Ananian: by default searches will be confined to ~/Journal; the real question is how to search *outside* that directory. (02:18:51 PM) HoboPrimate: look at nautilus (02:19:04 PM) HoboPrimate: you see the directories as buttons. (02:19:19 PM) HoboPrimate: imagine seeing just a Journal button there
Re: G1G1 Pre-installed Activities Request for Help Testing
This seems weighted toward older kids. I think you should include all of gcompris and TuxPaint. Paint is not a good drawing app for young children (or anybody else, but I digress). Colors is good. Cartoon builder is good for young kids. On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 5:42 PM, jean piche [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 08-09-19, at 18:27, Greg Smith wrote: Hi All, Thanks a lot for the input on which activities to ship! Here is the list of activities I will to management as my suggestion on what we ship. Please help test these! See the end of the e-mail for instructions. The list I recommend is essentially the G1G1 activities (kudos to the team who chose the first set!). In addition to those I list a few which got repeated votes (except Chess and Sudoku which are a concession to SJ ;-) Original G1G1 activities: Browse Read Write Paint Record TamTam Jam, Mini, on fence: Synthlab, Edit, Chat Pippy Etoys Turtle Art Calculate Measure Distance Memorize Terminal Log Analyze New ones: Help Implode Speak Maze SimCity Scratch Xaos StarChart Moon GCompris Chess GCompris Sudoku The only significant change from the original G1G1 set is the TamTam. I think we should include 2 not 4 so as not to over weight them against other activities. Let me know if anyone has comments on that (Jean can you live with that?). Yes. However, I think Mini and Edit would be my picks. Your call. Not all of these are sure to make it. On the other hand it's very unlikely that anything else will make it. So if you have an urgent request or a specific concern please speak up now. Of course, anyone can download additional activities so even if an activity is not on this list, it still attracts a lot of users. We need help testing these with the latest 8.2 image. We plan to make a release candidate today and if it passes smoke test we will add the activities and content to create a signed release candidate on Monday! Developers, Please reply with the final version and URL of each activity which we should include in the image. Each one must pass final test and have an active and reachable developer to make the final list. Morgan, can you make sure we have a contact e-mail and name on each of these? Also, let me know if you any of them are orphaned or not well maintained. All, Please test them all one more time let us know how it goes. I want to know if each of these passes the tests described here: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Test_cases_8.2.0#Activities Please create a new test case for any activity that needs one. To do that, go to this page: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Form:Test_case and entering Tests/Activities/nameofactivity to create a new test case. Then choose activity from the drop down and you can just paste in the steps test from above for a start. Then you can add a test result by clicking on the + sign next to the test case (it takes a little while for them to show up after creation). You can also e-mail comments or test results back to this list. Thanks a lot for your help. Thanks, Greg S ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel -- The water won't clear up 'til we get the hogs out of the creek. -- Jim Hightower ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: G1G1v2 Activities
On 19 Sep 2008, at 22:50, C. Scott Ananian wrote: On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 10:01 PM, Gary C Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: However, any hints would be much appreciated as to what this last remaining setup.py WARNING is trying to tell me? WARNING:root:bundle_name deprecated, now comes from activity.info I've not had much luck tracking it down, and I make no reference to bundle_name in my code. When you call BundleBuilder in setup.py, don't pass in a string in the constructor, leave it empty. It interprets the argument as a 'bundle_name' and is complaining that it's going to ignore what you passed in and use the name specified in activity.info instead. Yes, it took me a *long* time to finally realize this. --scott And just like magic, the warning has gone. Thanks scott! Does anyone disagree with me modifying pages I find on the wiki that show this (incase there is some side effect I am unaware of)? So where I see: bundlebuilder.start(HelloWorldActivity) I'd edit to: bundlebuilder.start() --Gary ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: G1G1v2 Activities
Here are my top 10 ranking, (with the next 10, if assuming some basic required packages) Journal Browse Write Record Paint Maze Calculate Pippy Physics (or x2o) Measure Implode Speak Memorize TamTam Moon XaoS Read Help Terminal XoIRC My criteria is basic activities or younger children exploring, and as the user 'masters' those activities... which activities would be next in the development/adventure/discovery/coolness/learning process. :) These are my close running 21st place :) StarChart eToys TurtleArt Chat Watch and Listen (Helix media player) WikiBrowse - SPOILER ALERT Below is my own informal tally so far, :) Record 10 Browse 9 TamTam 8 Write 8 Paint 7 Pippy 6 eToys 6 Measure 5 Speak 5 Read 5 Physics (or X2O) 5 TurtleArt 5 Chat 4 Journal 3 Memorize 3 Help 3 Terminal 3 Moon 2 Distance 2 Firefox 2 SimCity 2 XaoS 2 Frotz 2 Implode 2 Watch and Listen (Helix media player) 1 Acoustic Tape Measure / Distance 1 XoIRC 1 Memory 1 Maze 1 Calculate 1 Ruler 1 StarChart 1 Bridge 1 Words 1 Tumbleboy 1 PlayGo 1 Clock 1 GCompris Chess 1 GCompris Sudoku 1 StarChart 1 ePals 1 WikiBrowse 1 WikiBrowse Spanish 1 FYI, some people assumed basic Activities would be included no matter what: . . like Journal, Browse, and Help, Terminal. Cool ! :) -iXo ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] G1G1v2 Activities
On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 2:54 PM, Greg Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All, We need to pick the activities we ship with 8.2 when its manufactured for G1G1 users. Management needs to sign off on the final list as early as next week. Its not definitive but we want your input on what we should include. What do you think are the most important activities to include? Please pick up to 10 and put them in order of priority. We will tally the votes and use that as input to the decision. Thanks, Greg S PS this is not a scientific voting system like used recently in the sugar vote. I accept Arrow's impossibility theorem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow%27s_impossibility_theorem) and my math foo is weak so I'm not going to try and justify the methodology. 1. Measure 2. Etoys 3. Turtle Art with Sensors 4. Scratch 5. xo-get 6. Dr. Geo II 7. E-Paati/E-Paath 8. Record 9. TamTamJam 10. TamTamSynthLab There are several others that I can't recommend until I try them, or some other features are added. E-Pals is at the top of that list. -- Don't panic.--HHGTTG, Douglas Adams fivethirtyeight.com, 3bluedudes.com Obama still ahead in EC! http://www.obamapedia.org/ Join us! http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Mokurai For the children ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: G1G1 Pre-installed Activities Request for Help Testing
Colors! is far superior to Paint. Colors! is a wonderful activity. A lot of fun and can be used for learning how to paint. The replay mechanism is a great learning tool. Using Colors! in shared mode is a great example of the potential of collaboration for aiding creativity. On Sep 19, 2008, at 3:27 PM, Greg Smith wrote: Hi All, Thanks a lot for the input on which activities to ship! Here is the list of activities I will to management as my suggestion on what we ship. Please help test these! See the end of the e-mail for instructions. The list I recommend is essentially the G1G1 activities (kudos to the team who chose the first set!). In addition to those I list a few which got repeated votes (except Chess and Sudoku which are a concession to SJ ;-) Original G1G1 activities: Browse Read Write Paint Record TamTam Jam, Mini, on fence: Synthlab, Edit, Chat Pippy Etoys Turtle Art Calculate Measure Distance Memorize Terminal Log Analyze New ones: Help Implode Speak Maze SimCity Scratch Xaos StarChart Moon GCompris Chess GCompris Sudoku The only significant change from the original G1G1 set is the TamTam. I think we should include 2 not 4 so as not to over weight them against other activities. Let me know if anyone has comments on that (Jean can you live with that?). Not all of these are sure to make it. On the other hand it's very unlikely that anything else will make it. So if you have an urgent request or a specific concern please speak up now. Of course, anyone can download additional activities so even if an activity is not on this list, it still attracts a lot of users. We need help testing these with the latest 8.2 image. We plan to make a release candidate today and if it passes smoke test we will add the activities and content to create a signed release candidate on Monday! Developers, Please reply with the final version and URL of each activity which we should include in the image. Each one must pass final test and have an active and reachable developer to make the final list. Morgan, can you make sure we have a contact e-mail and name on each of these? Also, let me know if you any of them are orphaned or not well maintained. All, Please test them all one more time let us know how it goes. I want to know if each of these passes the tests described here: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Test_cases_8.2.0#Activities Please create a new test case for any activity that needs one. To do that, go to this page: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Form:Test_case and entering Tests/Activities/nameofactivity to create a new test case. Then choose activity from the drop down and you can just paste in the steps test from above for a start. Then you can add a test result by clicking on the + sign next to the test case (it takes a little while for them to show up after creation). You can also e-mail comments or test results back to this list. Thanks a lot for your help. Thanks, Greg S ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: [sugar] Ideas for Journal: How epiphany browser manages bookmarks just with tags
Eben Eliason writes: On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 3:59 PM, Eduardo H. Silva hoboprimate at gmail.com wrote: 2008/9/19 C. Scott Ananian cscott at laptop.org: Eben, Eduardo, and I have been chatting about this some over IRC. What I find most interesting here is how *filesystem paths* (well, URL paths in this particular case) are integrated with tags. It's more than interesting. Solving the path problem is critical. Paths allow compatibility with the world, including the laptop itself. They are also a decent way to organize things, far from perfect yet Superior to the overflowing inbox. BTW, I'm delighted to see some serious consideration of the issue. If you accept that tags can sometimes be ordered, so that a/b is different than b/a (although both will show up on searches for 'a' and 'b'), then this starts looking more and more like a way to view filesystems as well, for those old enough to want to do that. ... So I agree that some kind of containerization is needed, but not in the form of a/b being different than b/a, but by using virtual folders or saved searches which would effectively act as virtual folders, with specific tags, search terms, object types, even a period of time if you wished. The case of b/a being distinct from a/b is necessary. You may call it a necessary evil, but in any case is is necessary. The question then becomes: Is the alternate method good, and is it good enough to implement despite any user confusion and performance issues that may exist? Perhaps there should be a mode switch, with regular filesystems (USB stick, SD card, /, $HOME, /tmp) being visible only when in ordered mode. The real question (I didn't overlook this!) regarding the concept of virtual folders (or, more specifically, saved searches) is whether or not they are dynamic. That is, does the saved search represent an expression or a value? My above tag idea is only valid, of course, when they are represented in value form. For more power (but more complexity) one would store the search terms, filters, etc. and re-apply them on the fly to a growing list. I'm not sure which of these is more desired. They both have merits. If both work, then a mode switch could be made available. Note that work means scalability for both CPU time and RAM. On the existing hardware, you need to handle 100 thousand files. On something like a regular PC you'll need to handle a million. That means O(log) scaling at worst, for both CPU time and RAM. If you have files in ~/Journal/Music/Bach/Disc1 and ~/Journal/Music/Beethoven/Disc1, you can search for 'Bach', 'Music Bach' as well as 'Bach/Disc1' or 'Music/Bach/Disc1' if you want to be specific. When you insert a USB key with files in a directory called 'Music/Mozart', they appear in the journal as if they were tagged 'Music/Mozart' and you can search for 'Mozart' or 'Music' to find them. When I copy them to my XO, the tags come with, and I have operations to retag groups of files that are the result of a search (which can look very much like groups of files which are in a specific directory). Yep, I think this is a good idea to move files from a hierarchical system to a non hierarchical system (the Journal) and still reuse the information contained in that first organizational system. Absolutely. This is a critical element which we need to make work when we flesh out support for external devices in the next release. This idea is the only solace I have been able to give to the many many people frustrated with the previous behavior of the devices in the Journal. Round trip ability (USB - XO - USB) is important. Losing all the directory info is no good. For the journal to be truly usable, it needs to support pretty much all that we ask of a filesystem. You'll know you're doing OK when you can build joyride out of the journal. (git works, gcc works, etc.) At the end of my pdf, I showed how epiphany creates a seemingly hierarchical bookmark menu. But it is only seemingly. Remember, there where 3 bookmarks tagged education and free software. Because these tags where so popular, they became top-level menus, and inside each of these menus, the same 3 bookmarks lived, in their own section because they shared an extra tag. This is a really powerful structure, and I think it's just the thing we need to make navigating the Journal more pleasurable (for those that really don't like the idea of searching). Getting the thresholds right for the number of items required to use a tag before it becomes top level will be a challenge (it should probably be based on a ratio to total unique tags). Give priority to tags (and anti-tags) which split the set of files most evenly. This greatly reduces search time; it is equivalent to balancing a binary tree. Thanks for sharing this. I think the ideas we're talking about should definitely be added to the list of future goals so we can work them in. It would be a big improvement. That's
Re: [Server-devel] Revisor / yum oddity: anaconda-runtime
Martin Langhoff wrote: On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 3:16 AM, Jerry Vonau [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yea, revisor needs anaconda-runtime, cat /usr/lib/revisor/scripts/F9-buildinstall | grep anaconda Yes, but from what Jeroen has said, revisor will pull it in to satisfy the need at CD build time, without it being listed in the ks file (and therefore getting installed on the target system too...) Revisor for Fedora 9 will not pull any required packages into the composed tree anymore, and here's why; F9-buildinstall shipped with Revisor in Fedora 9 takes additional parameters, which are supposed to represent the repositories used during the compose of the tree (e.g. Packages/ and repodata/). See the YUM config file you used for the model in /etc/revisor/conf.d/. The required packages for buildinstall to run completely have to exist in these repositories but they would have to exist no matter if Revisor wanted to pull them in the composed tree or whether buildinstall can pull them from the repositories directly. Hence the log-file is of interest to me ;-) Anaconda-runtime needs to exist in the repo that you use for the compose, but doesn't need to be in the kickstart file. Too bad, you have to add anaconda-runtime to the kickstart file, to get the package into the compose repo, in order to use it later in buildinstall. Well, that's supposed to be true for pungi, not true for revisor. As far as I understand anyway :-) Jeroen has asked for logs and I'm collecting some right now... Yes, anaconda-runtime needs to exist in the repositories you use. Again whether Revisor looks to these repositories for required packages, or whether buildinstall does doesn't matter in this aspect. However, you should not be required you to add it to the kickstart's package manifest. Apparently though, since it does work with anaconda-runtime listed in the package manifest I'm confused because the package seems to be available from the repositories but buildinstall can't seem to find it, judging from Martin's earlier message. Kind regards, Jeroen van Meeuwen -kanarip ___ Server-devel mailing list Server-devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/server-devel
Re: [Server-devel] Revisor / yum oddity: anaconda-runtime
On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 10:23 PM, Jeroen van Meeuwen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hence the log-file is of interest to me ;-) Sent it in a private email :-) Yes, anaconda-runtime needs to exist in the repositories you use. Sorry - I should have clarified - anaconda-runtime *is* in the repos configured. (otherwise, adding it to the ks wouldn't help anyway!) cheers, m -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff ___ Server-devel mailing list Server-devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/server-devel
Re: [Server-devel] mkslim: shed off XS weight
Martin Langhoff wrote: On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 2:45 PM, Martin Langhoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: in any case, I've run a quick check - cp -P does not imply --recursive, so I reverted to -a Yea, I know, that is why the mkdir/cp loop is there. ## selinux doesn't like cp -a ## That is the reason for cp -P # Copy to working dir The context would be that of an iso filesystem using cp -a, here is the selinux warning: Summary: SELinux is preventing cp from creating a file with a context of iso9660_t on a filesystem. Detailed Description: SELinux is preventing cp from creating a file with a context of iso9660_t on a filesystem. Usually this happens when you ask the cp command to maintain the context of a file when copying between file systems, cp -a for example. Not all file contexts should be maintained between the file systems. For example, a read-only file type like iso9660_t should not be placed on a r/w system. cp -P might be a better solution, as this will adopt the default file context for the destination. Allowing Access: Use a command like cp -P to preserve all permissions except SELinux context. Additional Information: Source Contextsystem_u:object_r:iso9660_t:s0 Target Contextsystem_u:object_r:fs_t:s0 Target Objectsfedora.css [ filesystem ] Sourcecp Source Path /bin/cp Port Unknown Host schoolserver Source RPM Packages coreutils-6.10-30.fc9 Target RPM Packages Policy RPMselinux-policy-3.3.1-84.fc9 Selinux Enabled True Policy Type targeted MLS Enabled True Enforcing ModeEnforcing Plugin Name filesystem_associate Host Name schoolserver Platform Linux schoolserver 2.6.25.14-108.fc9.i686 #1 SMP Mon Aug 4 14:08:11 EDT 2008 i686 i686 Alert Count 21 First SeenFri 12 Sep 2008 07:27:12 PM CDT Last Seen Fri 12 Sep 2008 11:18:01 PM CDT Local ID 90f4d968-0a9b-42df-9982-fd0bdf284859 Line Numbers Raw Audit Messages host=schoolserver type=AVC msg=audit(1221279481.164:576): avc: denied { associate } for pid=12289 comm=cp name=fedora.css dev=dm-0 ino=1835383 scontext=system_u:object_r:iso9660_t:s0 tcontext=system_u:object_r:fs_t:s0 tclass=filesystem host=schoolserver type=SYSCALL msg=audit(1221279481.164:576): arch=4003 syscall=228 success=no exit=-13 a0=4 a1=df435d a2=9d566f0 a3=1f items=0 ppid=12279 pid=12289 auid=500 uid=0 gid=0 euid=0 suid=0 fsuid=0 egid=0 sgid=0 fsgid=0 tty=pts1 ses=1 comm=cp exe=/bin/cp subj=unconfined_u:unconfined_r:unconfined_t:s0-s0:c0.c1023 key=(null) # - the 3rd param was not optional, and without it, I think t tried to overlay /* -- oops! Too funny, me too, and I forgot to update the one on the web, sorry +if [ foo$3 = foo ]; then +echo You need the 3rd parameter!; +usage +fi + It's meant to be optional... You don't have to copy anything if not needed for your slim version. You could re-roll the iso without adding anything, just to have a smaller disk. This is what I meant: if [ x$custom != x]; then echo testing copying cp -a $custom/* $WORKDIR fi Jerry ___ Server-devel mailing list Server-devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/server-devel
Re: [Server-devel] Revisor / yum oddity: anaconda-runtime
Martin Langhoff wrote: On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 10:23 PM, Jeroen van Meeuwen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hence the log-file is of interest to me ;-) Sent it in a private email :-) Yes, anaconda-runtime needs to exist in the repositories you use. Sorry - I should have clarified - anaconda-runtime *is* in the repos configured. (otherwise, adding it to the ks wouldn't help anyway!) runtime won't be in the repo that you're spinning, and that is the one that buildinstall is going to use: if [[ $REPO =~ ^/ ]]; then [ -n $OUTPUT ] || OUTPUT=$REPO REPO=file://$REPO and from the log OUTPUT is set to: /var/tmp/revisor-pungi/0.5/xs-f9-i386/i386/os That is the repo that getting spun right? Jerry ___ Server-devel mailing list Server-devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/server-devel