Re: Telling time (was: StopWatch activity)
On Nov 17, 2007, at 0:21 , Mitch Bradley wrote: > > This is a "Color of the Bikeshed" issue. > > Give it a rest. The clock discussion is, you're right. Reminding everyone that we set out to create an environment for kids to explore and construct is not. It's perplexing how few developers seem to share that goal. - Bert - ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Telling time (was: StopWatch activity)
This is a "Color of the Bikeshed" issue. Give it a rest. ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Telling time (was: StopWatch activity)
> -1 to the idea that we should deliberately leave out features in order to > encourage kids to program. O, ye of little > faith. I don't see anybody said this, but yes, that would be bad. The environment should come rich set of tools/widgets etc. that make the environment "rich". Several clock examples should be part of it (That is why I just made one). But, these tools should be used by kids to make more stuff, and also these should be "openable" to see inside. That is what I mean by saying "kids should be making clocks." -- Yoshiki ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Telling time (was: StopWatch activity)
> > > What I was suggesting though is > that there should *not* be a clock in the Sugar frame visible all the > time. +1 to including hooks to Sugar for frame-resident mini-apps. +1 to making the frame clock optional (turned on from the clock activity - another reason to keep it an activity) and not the default option. If people want it, they will find it - vice versa is not as true. +1 to a respect that there are vastly differing cultural views of time -1 to the idea that any other culture's view of time is so inherently fragile that it can be shattered by a simple digital clock. The percentage of people who have NOT seen a clock is ever-shrinking - I suspect it's a safe guess that many people reading this message may have grown up when that percentage was several times what it is now. I'll hazard another bet: the xo will NOT have any measurable impact on that trend. And another: many cultural views of time are in fact just as compatible with the clock as yours, even if you (naturally) think that yours is the logical result of the clock. -1 to the idea that we should deliberately leave out features in order to encourage kids to program. O, ye of little faith. My opinions, Jameson ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Telling time (was: StopWatch activity)
On Nov 16, 2007, at 21:13 , nick knouf wrote: > On Nov 16, 2007, at 1:57 PM, Yoshiki Ohshima wrote: >> Well, it seems that you are responding to a wrong message. > > Not really; if the question is whether or not there is a clock > application that is standard on the laptop, implicit there is a > decision as to _what kind_ of clock application. It's that question > that I wanted to highlight. Yes, you are answering in the wrong thread. Having an activity for exploring time is obviously valuable. What I was suggesting though is that there should *not* be a clock in the Sugar frame visible all the time. Granted, all office-centric operating systems / GUIs have one. So what? We shouldn't. If a kid wants one, make Sugar easy to modify to allow this and other modifications we might not even think of, yet. - Bert - ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Telling time (was: StopWatch activity)
On Nov 16, 2007, at 1:57 PM, Yoshiki Ohshima wrote: > Well, it seems that you are responding to a wrong message. Not really; if the question is whether or not there is a clock application that is standard on the laptop, implicit there is a decision as to _what kind_ of clock application. It's that question that I wanted to highlight. > So, what do you think about the idea of letting kids make their own > clocks? I should have made it more explicit in my e-mail that I would certainly be in favor of a variety of different clock applications that reflect local conditions or are based on the logic or whimsy of the user. The only thing I would caution is that the clock construction environment should not privilege one type of representation versus another. Not that I am suggesting that you or anyone else is necessarily doing that; again, I raise the point for the purposes of making the question salient. nick ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Telling time (was: StopWatch activity)
Nick, At Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:13:34 -0500, nick knouf wrote: > > > Bert Freudenberg writes: > > > > > I question the very assumption that continuously telling > > > the time is even remotely important on a learning machine > > > for kids in elementary school age. > > > > Dealing with time is a critical life skill that must be learned. > > Having a clock is thus very important. > > Whose time? Hours minutes seconds? Days since a recent feast? When > the sun is at a certain position in the sky? Since I last saw you on > the road? How much do I quantize? Is quantization of time even a > concept I am familiar with? Well, it seems that you are responding to a wrong message. > The notion of time is _highly_ contingent on situated cultural > factors. Just because in the West we measure things using hours, > minutes, and seconds, does not mean that the entire world does so. > In fact, our conception of time is directly related to churches and > clock towers in the middle ages (see Lewis Mumford on this idea) > first, and then assembly lines and educational/disciplinary > institutions (see Foucault) . The rest of the world has not > necessarily adopted our way of dividing days into ever smaller > chunks---perhaps there is no quantization at all! > > A clock application, especially given the areas of deployment, is > _not_ something you rush into with the assumption that you can merely > write a graphic display of 00:00:00. One must understand the local > conditions to know how time is told _on the ground_ and be careful to > not impose a Western notion of quantization and temporal division > that might be entirely foreign. So, what do you think about the idea of letting kids make their own clocks? -- Yoshiki ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Telling time (was: StopWatch activity)
> Bert Freudenberg writes: > > > I question the very assumption that continuously telling > > the time is even remotely important on a learning machine > > for kids in elementary school age. > > Dealing with time is a critical life skill that must be learned. > Having a clock is thus very important. Whose time? Hours minutes seconds? Days since a recent feast? When the sun is at a certain position in the sky? Since I last saw you on the road? How much do I quantize? Is quantization of time even a concept I am familiar with? The notion of time is _highly_ contingent on situated cultural factors. Just because in the West we measure things using hours, minutes, and seconds, does not mean that the entire world does so. In fact, our conception of time is directly related to churches and clock towers in the middle ages (see Lewis Mumford on this idea) first, and then assembly lines and educational/disciplinary institutions (see Foucault) . The rest of the world has not necessarily adopted our way of dividing days into ever smaller chunks---perhaps there is no quantization at all! A clock application, especially given the areas of deployment, is _not_ something you rush into with the assumption that you can merely write a graphic display of 00:00:00. One must understand the local conditions to know how time is told _on the ground_ and be careful to not impose a Western notion of quantization and temporal division that might be entirely foreign. nick knouf ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Telling time (was: StopWatch activity)
Bert Freudenberg writes: > I question the very assumption that continuously telling > the time is even remotely important on a learning machine > for kids in elementary school age. Dealing with time is a critical life skill that must be learned. Having a clock is thus very important. Keeping the activity separate is good. Once the frame clock arrives, the activity clock can either be deleted or mutate into a calendar. The clock activity could also be used to set the time zone. If anything, the stopwatch goes with the ruler and the acoustic ruler. ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Telling time (was: StopWatch activity)
On Nov 14, 2007, at 22:37 , Eben Eliason wrote: > I'm talking, really, about interaction overhead. In order to see the > current time I should press a key, or make a gesture with the mouse, > or something similar. I shouldn't have to find the clock activity > wherever that might be, click to launch it, wait for it do launch > (however short that may be), and then close it again just to check the > time. I could leave it open all the time for later checking, of > course, but I'd still have to perform this exercise every time I > rebooted. This kind of things should really be a system device as > well. I question the very assumption that continuously telling the time is even remotely important on a learning machine for kids in elementary school age. - Bert - ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
