Re: Why is Terminal 'extra' ?
Installed 698 (using 'olpc-update' from Joyride). There was __no__ Terminal activity anywhere (that I could find) in the newly installed 698 image. I happen to *require* using the command line to set my environment. After boot, had to use a console terminal just to see what was what. [There was the footprint of Terminal in Journal, from the last time Terminal had run. But it could not be restarted, since it no longer existed. (Betcha you'll get help requests about this.)] Found it simplest to reboot Joyride (which was already set up for my environment), in order to download Terminal and install it in /home/olpc/Activities. If there are users in Peru with requirements like mine, will they have to go through hoops (to get Terminal) like I did ? mikus ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Why is Terminal 'extra' ?
On Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 3:42 PM, Mikus Grinbergs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Installed 698 (using 'olpc-update' from Joyride). There was __no__ Terminal activity anywhere (that I could find) in the newly installed 698 image. Yes, sorry, things have slightly fallen through the cracks. The library in Joyride has Terminal, Analyze, etc, but it looks like the customization key will be the way to add all activities to update.1. 699 will have *no activities except Journal*. Putting stuff in the library was seen as a gross hack for ship.2 -- although I expect opinions will differ on this score. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Why is Terminal 'extra' ?
Terminal, Log Viewer, and Analyze are not included in the core build, but they *are* included in the core *library*. That is, you can always install them, even though they may not show up by default in the toolbar. I did not realize that - your answer settles my concern (i.e., that a user under a tree ought to be able to install Terminal if it was not included in the build). But it would be nice if the documentation were clearer. The wiki mentions library many times, but most of those references are to libraries out in cyberspace, or at the school. There is info about the Activities resident in the XO; there ought to be more info about the Library resident in the XO. [Because I originally had problems with Browse, had not explored its sidebar capabilities.] mikus ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Why is Terminal 'extra' ?
On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 8:55 AM, Mikus Grinbergs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Terminal, Log Viewer, and Analyze are not included in the core build, but they *are* included in the core *library*. That is, you can always install them, even though they may not show up by default in the toolbar. I did not realize that - your answer settles my concern (i.e., that a user under a tree ought to be able to install Terminal if it was not included in the build). But it would be nice if the documentation were clearer. The wiki mentions library many times, but most of those references are to libraries out in cyberspace, or at the school. There is info about the Activities resident in the XO; there ought to be more info about the Library resident in the XO. [Because I originally had problems with Browse, had not explored its sidebar capabilities.] It should be remembered that I am trying to do the best I can for update.1 in the extremely limited time available. We've got some better solutions (as described above) for future releases; our approaches are likely to change with time. We'll probably have a detailed discussion of what goes into the core library at some point as well. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Why is Terminal 'extra' ?
Was not aware of the implications of the official builds from now on will contain only _base_ Activities (discussed in Ticket #6598), until I saw a recent post to the Sugar list. I happen to be a heavy CLI user. It appears the target countries for OLPC deployment have not insisted on CLI - hence Terminal is being omitted from the _base_ software distribution. I'm presuming not all users in the field will have a connection whereby to download 'extra' Activities omitted from the _base_. That leaves the text console as the approved OLPC CLI interface. Admittedly Terminal can be used to delete/alter things that should be left alone. But to me personally, it is easier to use than the text console. Do the benefits of initially leaving Terminal out of the _base_ distribution outweigh having to subsequently install it for those who wish to use it ? mikus ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Why is Terminal 'extra' ?
On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 11:37 AM, Mikus Grinbergs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Was not aware of the implications of the official builds from now on will contain only _base_ Activities (discussed in Ticket #6598), until I saw a recent post to the Sugar list. I happen to be a heavy CLI user. It appears the target countries for OLPC deployment have not insisted on CLI - hence Terminal is being omitted from the _base_ software distribution. I'm presuming not all users in the field will have a connection whereby to download 'extra' Activities omitted from the _base_. That leaves the text console as the approved OLPC CLI interface. Terminal, Log Viewer, and Analyze are not included in the core build, but they *are* included in the core *library*. That is, you can always install them, even though they may not show up by default in the toolbar. Now, there are people who feel strongly that Terminal should appear in the default toolbar. I don't have a strong personal opinion pro or con on this. But it *must* be (and is) *available* (even if not 'installed by default) because it is essential for OLPC to diagnose and fix problems in the field -- although it is probably not useful (and possibly even confusing) to many naive users. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Why is Terminal 'extra' ?
On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 7:39 PM, C. Scott Ananian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 11:37 AM, Mikus Grinbergs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Was not aware of the implications of the official builds from now on will contain only _base_ Activities (discussed in Ticket #6598), until I saw a recent post to the Sugar list. I happen to be a heavy CLI user. It appears the target countries for OLPC deployment have not insisted on CLI - hence Terminal is being omitted from the _base_ software distribution. I'm presuming not all users in the field will have a connection whereby to download 'extra' Activities omitted from the _base_. That leaves the text console as the approved OLPC CLI interface. Terminal, Log Viewer, and Analyze are not included in the core build, but they *are* included in the core *library*. That is, you can always install them, even though they may not show up by default in the toolbar. Now, there are people who feel strongly that Terminal should appear in the default toolbar. I don't have a strong personal opinion pro or con on this. But it *must* be (and is) *available* (even if not 'installed by default) because it is essential for OLPC to diagnose and fix problems in the field -- although it is probably not useful (and possibly even confusing) to many naive users. It is scheduled for update.2 some changes to the home view and the frame such that activities won't be launched from the frame. See more in the link below: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Designs/Activity_Management With these changes, I wonder if all the activities that are shipped in the library should be installed instead (but not marked as favorites). Tomeu ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Why is Terminal 'extra' ?
Yes, this was one of the aspects we like about the new design. Your suggestion reinforces the whole intent of the two views within Home. Regardless, we likely want to retain their presence within the Library so that kids can manage (including deletion of) activities without winding up entirely without access to these tools. - Eben On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 1:45 PM, Tomeu Vizoso [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 7:39 PM, C. Scott Ananian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 11:37 AM, Mikus Grinbergs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Was not aware of the implications of the official builds from now on will contain only _base_ Activities (discussed in Ticket #6598), until I saw a recent post to the Sugar list. I happen to be a heavy CLI user. It appears the target countries for OLPC deployment have not insisted on CLI - hence Terminal is being omitted from the _base_ software distribution. I'm presuming not all users in the field will have a connection whereby to download 'extra' Activities omitted from the _base_. That leaves the text console as the approved OLPC CLI interface. Terminal, Log Viewer, and Analyze are not included in the core build, but they *are* included in the core *library*. That is, you can always install them, even though they may not show up by default in the toolbar. Now, there are people who feel strongly that Terminal should appear in the default toolbar. I don't have a strong personal opinion pro or con on this. But it *must* be (and is) *available* (even if not 'installed by default) because it is essential for OLPC to diagnose and fix problems in the field -- although it is probably not useful (and possibly even confusing) to many naive users. It is scheduled for update.2 some changes to the home view and the frame such that activities won't be launched from the frame. See more in the link below: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Designs/Activity_Management With these changes, I wonder if all the activities that are shipped in the library should be installed instead (but not marked as favorites). Tomeu ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Why is Terminal 'extra' ?
On Mar 6, 2008, at 8:48 PM, Walter Bender wrote: We cannot ship laptops with learning tools, of which the terminal is one. ITYM without? :) -- Ivan Krstić [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://radian.org ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Why is Terminal 'extra' ?
On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 2:48 PM, Walter Bender [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This whole discussion has gone awry. The presumed core activities had better be about streamlining the build engineering process, not the epistemological goals of the project. We cannot ship laptops with[out] learning tools, of which the terminal is one. More later, when I amback online. I don't think the discussion has gone awry. People seem to generally understand what we are trying to do here. The core activities are just those which we insist all countries include on the left hand side of the (current) activity bar. We have another 3 activities in the library which we don't insist they include on the activity bar (yet?) but which must be on the laptop for field maintenance and debugging, if nothing else. There is no statement being made about epistemological goals. Walter (and the deployment team) is in charge of convincing countries to include a sane set of activities in their customization kit to actually permit the full learning potential of the machine to be exploited, and I believe he is succeeding. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Why is Terminal 'extra' ?
Terminal, Log Viewer, and Analyze are not included in the core build, but they *are* included in the core *library*. That is, you can always install them, even though they may not show up by default in the toolbar. Why would we burn up Flash space for activities that are not accessible to the user?* And if the user installs them, then they burn up twice as much flash space? We had several brick bugs that filled the filesystem in build 650. Those are fixed; are there any others? It would've been rather hard to install a terminal to diagnose them. If there's a problem with the toolbar being too long, fix it! Oh, that's already scheduled. Then what's the problem? Can't upgrade or remove activites? Just ship all the activities in /home/olpc rather than in /usr, then they'll all be upgradeable and removable. John *: I understand why some activities, like SimCity, made the library but not the toolbar; the release shifted at the last minute and they didn't work so well. And the library deadline was later than the main deadline. And SJ was kinder than Jim :-). But those temporary artifacts shouldn't be institutionalized. ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
Re: Why is Terminal 'extra' ?
On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 6:22 PM, John Gilmore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why would we burn up Flash space for activities that are not accessible to the user?* And if the user installs them, then they burn up twice as much flash space? Taking up twice as much flash space is painful. Having a simple toggle that shifts them from being invisible to being visible would make more sense. SJ If there's a problem with the toolbar being too long, fix it! Oh, that's already scheduled. Then what's the problem? Can't upgrade or remove activites? Just ship all the activities in /home/olpc rather than in /usr, then they'll all be upgradeable and removable. ___ Devel mailing list Devel@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
