Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[Ian Clarke]

On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 5:57 PM David Dernoncourt 
wrote:

> >> Maybe that's how you intended it originally, but with the possible
> exceptions of the devs who work on the depot named "fred" and maybe some
> users who are really experts and die-hard on wording accuracy, what most
> users call "Freenet" is that piece of software that you download from on
> this page https://freenetproject.org/pages/download.html that begins with
> "Download and install Freenet:"
> >
> > Firstly, you have no idea how most users of Fred feel about this
> > change, so I hope you're not implying that they all agree with you.
> > There is a lot of "argumentum ad populum" going on in this thread.
> > People should speak for themselves.
>
> Where did I mention agreement to the change in what you quote? All I'm
> saying is that the name "Freenet" is currently attached, in most people's
> minds, to the particular software and not to "the mission".
>

There you go again, speaking on behalf of people you don't speak for.


> I don't see how the naming in itself will be a game changer "for the next
> generation". "The next generation" will adopt any product it deems as
> "cool", even if it has a stupid name such as "TikTok" or "FTX". So as far
> as they're concerned, the name doesn't even matter. So yeah, you could
> rename as you say. You could also rename Locutus as Dicky-Doo-Dah. That's
> not really where the problem lies. Just like Freenet (current) didn't fail
> because of its name, Freenet (new) won't succeed thanks to of its name.
>

I'm not sure of your expertise, but I doubt it's in brand marketing.


> However, what about the current generation?


All 7.888 billion of them? You don't speak for them either.


> Is it gently (or not so gently) being told to sod off? I'd like to know,
> cause stopping a few servers here and there would mean fewer bills to pay.
>

If you think you can get your way by threatening to stop contributing then
you don't know who you're talking to.

Ian.

-- 
Ian Clarke
Founder, The Freenet Project
Email: i...@freenet.org 

Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[David Dernoncourt]

On Thu, Jan 19, 2023, at 00:13, Ian Clarke wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 18, 2023, 4:47 PM David Dernoncourt  
> wrote:
>> On Wed, Jan 18, 2023, at 19:32, Ian Clarke wrote:
>> > That's not what's happening. The name always belonged to the *mission*, 
>> > not to any particular piece of software. This is why we were careful 
>> > not to tie it to any particular codebase when we wrote it:
>> 
>> Maybe that's how you intended it originally, but with the possible 
>> exceptions of the devs who work on the depot named "fred" and maybe some 
>> users who are really experts and die-hard on wording accuracy, what most 
>> users call "Freenet" is that piece of software that you download from on 
>> this page https://freenetproject.org/pages/download.html that begins with 
>> "Download and install Freenet:"
>
> Firstly, you have no idea how most users of Fred feel about this 
> change, so I hope you're not implying that they all agree with you. 
> There is a lot of "argumentum ad populum" going on in this thread. 
> People should speak for themselves.

Where did I mention agreement to the change in what you quote? All I'm saying 
is that the name "Freenet" is currently attached, in most people's minds, to 
the particular software and not to "the mission".
And before you go back with a "you can't know what people think" argument: why 
the Hell would you assume a random user who downloads the only software offered 
on a page subtitled "download Freenet" (and named "FreenetInstaller.exe") would 
think "Freenet" isn't the name of the software they download and install? Until 
otherwise proven, they downloaded and ran a software, not a mission statement.

> But more importantly, let's pretend that every single Fred user 
> disagreed with changing "Freenet" to "Freenet Classic". As I've already 
> stated - the constituency I'm concerned with is the next generation.

I don't see how the naming in itself will be a game changer "for the next 
generation". "The next generation" will adopt any product it deems as "cool", 
even if it has a stupid name such as "TikTok" or "FTX". So as far as they're 
concerned, the name doesn't even matter. So yeah, you could rename as you say. 
You could also rename Locutus as Dicky-Doo-Dah. That's not really where the 
problem lies. Just like Freenet (current) didn't fail because of its name, 
Freenet (new) won't succeed thanks to of its name.
However, what about the current generation? Is it gently (or not so gently) 
being told to sod off? I'd like to know, cause stopping a few servers here and 
there would mean fewer bills to pay.

> So if you've got a compelling factual argument for why you think not 
> doing this will be better for the next generation, then I'm all ears.

As I said, for "the next generation", naming isn't important. You could even 
try naming Locutus "Big Brother", apparently people like that, and younger 
generations in particular. And considering your naming theory, maybe it's just 
because the name is catchy.

Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[Ian Clarke]

[resending, last one was sent from an old email address accidentally - I
need to leave and rejoin this ML].

Firstly, you have no idea how most users of Fred feel about this change, so
I hope you're not implying that they all agree with you. There is a lot of
"argumentum ad populum" going on in this thread. People should speak for
themselves.

But more importantly, let's pretend that every single Fred user disagreed
with changing "Freenet" to "Freenet Classic". As I've already stated - the
constituency I'm concerned with is the next generation.

So if you've got a compelling factual argument for why you think not doing
this will be better for the next generation, then I'm all ears.

On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 4:47 PM David Dernoncourt 
wrote:

> On Wed, Jan 18, 2023, at 19:32, Ian Clarke wrote:
> > On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 11:08 AM David Dernoncourt
> >  wrote:
> >> As "just a regular user" and node runner who just poked around a few
> PRs, the main issues I have with this are 1) "what the Hell is Locutus" and
> 2) wow that's confusing.
> >>
> >> Sure, 1) is just (mostly) a rhetorical question. But it seems quite an
> unusual thing to "steal" the name of a software (even more so when said
> software is still actively maintained) to stamp it on another software that
> doesn't have any relationship with the other one beside being supported by
> the same foundation and sharing the same (or a similar enough) mission
> statement.
> >
> > That's not what's happening. The name always belonged to the *mission*,
> > not to any particular piece of software. This is why we were careful
> > not to tie it to any particular codebase when we wrote it:
> >
>
> Maybe that's how you intended it originally, but with the possible
> exceptions of the devs who work on the depot named "fred" and maybe some
> users who are really experts and die-hard on wording accuracy, what most
> users call "Freenet" is that piece of software that you download from on
> this page https://freenetproject.org/pages/download.html that begins with
> "Download and install Freenet:"
>


-- 
Ian Clarke
Founder, The Freenet Project
Email: i...@freenetproject.org

Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[Ian Clarke]

On Wed, Jan 18, 2023, 4:47 PM David Dernoncourt 
wrote:

> On Wed, Jan 18, 2023, at 19:32, Ian Clarke wrote:
> > That's not what's happening. The name always belonged to the *mission*,
> > not to any particular piece of software. This is why we were careful
> > not to tie it to any particular codebase when we wrote it:
>
> Maybe that's how you intended it originally, but with the possible
> exceptions of the devs who work on the depot named "fred" and maybe some
> users who are really experts and die-hard on wording accuracy, what most
> users call "Freenet" is that piece of software that you download from on
> this page https://freenetproject.org/pages/download.html that begins with
> "Download and install Freenet:"
>

Firstly, you have no idea how most users of Fred feel about this change, so
I hope you're not implying that they all agree with you. There is a lot of
"argumentum ad populum" going on in this thread. People should speak for
themselves.

But more importantly, let's pretend that every single Fred user disagreed
with changing "Freenet" to "Freenet Classic". As I've already stated - the
constituency I'm concerned with is the next generation.

So if you've got a compelling factual argument for why you think not doing
this will be better for the next generation, then I'm all ears.

Ian.

Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[David Dernoncourt]

On Wed, Jan 18, 2023, at 19:32, Ian Clarke wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 11:08 AM David Dernoncourt 
>  wrote:
>> As "just a regular user" and node runner who just poked around a few PRs, 
>> the main issues I have with this are 1) "what the Hell is Locutus" and 2) 
>> wow that's confusing.
>> 
>> Sure, 1) is just (mostly) a rhetorical question. But it seems quite an 
>> unusual thing to "steal" the name of a software (even more so when said 
>> software is still actively maintained) to stamp it on another software that 
>> doesn't have any relationship with the other one beside being supported by 
>> the same foundation and sharing the same (or a similar enough) mission 
>> statement.
>
> That's not what's happening. The name always belonged to the *mission*, 
> not to any particular piece of software. This is why we were careful 
> not to tie it to any particular codebase when we wrote it:
>

Maybe that's how you intended it originally, but with the possible exceptions 
of the devs who work on the depot named "fred" and maybe some users who are 
really experts and die-hard on wording accuracy, what most users call "Freenet" 
is that piece of software that you download from on this page 
https://freenetproject.org/pages/download.html that begins with "Download and 
install Freenet:"

Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[Ian Clarke]

On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 2:12 PM Freenet304987 
wrote:

> Ian Clarke  wrote:
> > The name - which I came up with - never belonged to one codebase, it
> > belonged to the mission. This was the case from the beginning, which
> > is precisely why our mission statement didn't mention any specific
> > implementation.
>
> You are stuck in the past.
>
> Things you did 24 years ago do not grant you free reign forever.
> You've been absent for over a decade, Freenet has moved on.
>

Thank you, anonymous person I have no idea who you are, for telling me all
about the project I started.

Michael is right, this now seems to be more about you venting and having an
overinflated ego than advancing the interests of the project.

Ian.

-- 
Ian Clarke
Founder, The Freenet Project
Email: i...@freenetproject.org

Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[Freenet304987]

Michael Grube  wrote:
> You are a random, anonymous person with some unqualified sense of
> importance

I am unimportant. Where did I talk about myself?

I'm talking about the people who run this project who Ian is
ignoring.

Anonymously precisely because who I am is irrelevant.

> I'm not sure actually, what are you trying to accomplish?

Read my original mail:
https://www.mail-archive.com/devl@freenetproject.org/msg55278.html

> This conversation isn't really helpful anymore and should have
> ended about 20 emails ago.

Yes, with Ian Clarke saying "I'm sorry, I was wrong. Consider
my plans void."

> Veiled insults and being living because the word "Classic"
> is added to the title seems incredibly dramatic to me.

Classic implies Freenet is obsolete.
It will mean that anyone who randomly runs into the website
will consider Freenet "Classic" as outdated and
not the first thing to use.

It means that he effectively intends to end the project.
Which is a dramatic thing.

Re the insults:
It was tried for many years to be polite with Ian Clarke.
Unfortunately he has an extremely large ego which he uses to
believe he can just dictate how the project operates.
This ego needs to be trimmed by confronting him with the
reality of it.

> The regular users in this post who are not highly invested
> developers seem fairly neutral to me.

I cannot remember a single person saying the name change is a good
idea.

Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[Freenet304987]

Ian Clarke  wrote:
> Freenet304987  wrote:
> > But you absolutely do **not** have to steal the name of an existing
> > software for that.
> 
> The name - which I came up with - never belonged to one codebase, it
> belonged to the mission. This was the case from the beginning, which
> is precisely why our mission statement didn't mention any specific
> implementation.

You are stuck in the past.

Things you did 24 years ago do not grant you free reign forever.
You've been absent for over a decade, Freenet has moved on.

> > Millions of software projects were able to come up with a unique
> > and good name, so can you.
> 
> I did, 24 years ago.

Stuck in the past.

> Don't be silly, me not doing what you think I should do isn't
> "oppression".

Trying to push through a major change against a whole team of
people who have been working for free for you for decades.

If that is not oppression, then what is?

> > This is beyond ungrateful.
> > It is utterly vile and you should be ashamed.
> 
> I'm happy to hear different perspectives, but this melodramatic
> language helps nobody.

You arbitrarily decide you can effectively delete the work of
decades (by renaming it to something which sounds obsolete,
which means people will not use it).

Tell me: If a whole team getting treated like this after years of
donations is not melodramatic, then what is melodramatic?

Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[Michael Grube]

You are a random, anonymous person with some unqualified sense of
importance using personal attacks to accomplish I'm not sure actually,
what are you trying to accomplish?

This conversation isn't really helpful anymore and should have ended about
20 emails ago. Veiled insults and being living because the word "Classic"
is added to the title seems incredibly dramatic to me. What's the point of
continuing this ragefest? What is the goal? Guilt Ian into changing his
mind? You're doing a pretty bad job.

The regular users in this post who are not highly invested developers seem
fairly neutral to me. Screaming into the abyss changes nothing. Insults
change nothing. This thread has become ridiculous.


On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 11:49 AM Freenet304987 
wrote:

> Ian Clarke  wrote:
> > > You do not care about the currently existing, vibrant Freenet
> > > Community?
> >
> > I care about the maintainers and users of Fred, and I've said I
> > do
>
> If you care so much about the maintainers, then why are you ignoring
> the fact that they are **all** here, right now, telling you "no"?
>
> > this is why I've been discussing this with you for the last
> > 18 months to ensure that I gave your perspective a fair hearing,
> > even if I ultimately didn't agree with it.
>
> You discussed this in private with a single person.
>
> That is not a discussion with "the maintainerS" or the "userS",
> plural.
> Such a discussion would have been what is happening on the mailing
> list here right now.
>
> And as you can see, it would have resulted in a "no", because
> it does result in a "no" now, which you still not seem to accept.
>

Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[Freenet304987]

Ian Clarke  wrote:
> > You do not care about the currently existing, vibrant Freenet
> > Community?
> 
> I care about the maintainers and users of Fred, and I've said I
> do

If you care so much about the maintainers, then why are you ignoring
the fact that they are **all** here, right now, telling you "no"?

> this is why I've been discussing this with you for the last
> 18 months to ensure that I gave your perspective a fair hearing,
> even if I ultimately didn't agree with it.

You discussed this in private with a single person.

That is not a discussion with "the maintainerS" or the "userS",
plural.
Such a discussion would have been what is happening on the mailing
list here right now.

And as you can see, it would have resulted in a "no", because
it does result in a "no" now, which you still not seem to accept.

Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[Freenet304987]

Ian Clarke  wrote:
> > The core of it is the opinion of **EVERYONE** in this room,
> > Nobody wants your forced theft of the project's name,
> > not even a minority!
>
> What "room"? 

This mailing list.
Almost everyone who is important on the team is currently here.

They're all telling you "no".

How difficult is it to understand the concept of "no"?

> I've already said, the constituency I care about is the next
> generation. You don't speak for them.

You don't either. You're born 1977.

They can speak for themselves and join Locutus if they like to,
or Freenet, or none.

They don't need you to grandstand on their behalf.
They've shown their capability with Fridays For Future.

Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[Ian Clarke]

On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 11:11 AM Juiceman  wrote:

> On Wed, Jan 18, 2023, 12:08 PM David Dernoncourt 
> wrote:
>
>> As "just a regular user" and node runner who just poked around a few PRs,
>> the main issues I have with this are 1) "what the Hell is Locutus" and 2)
>> wow that's confusing.
>>
>> Sure, 1) is just (mostly) a rhetorical question. But it seems quite an
>> unusual thing to "steal" the name of a software (even more so when said
>> software is still actively maintained) to stamp it on another software that
>> doesn't have any relationship with the other one beside being supported by
>> the same foundation and sharing the same (or a similar enough) mission
>> statement.
>>
>
> Speaking of steal:
>
https://trademarks.justia.com/874/39/freenet-87439977.html
>

Given that our use of the name predates their trademark by 18 years and has
been in active use that entire time, I don't think this trademark is a
concern.

-- 
Ian Clarke
Founder, The Freenet Project
Email: i...@freenetproject.org

Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[Victor Denisov]

It's interesting how the word "I" is used persistently by Mr. Clarke, 
even though it was a (supposedly) group decision made by the board. If 
this decision was indeed made by a group of people, after debating and 
evaluating the pros, cons and consequences of same, I would've expected 
the word "we" being used more prominently.


For what's it worth, I personally hold very little interest in Freenet 
any more (after spending almost 8 years teaching students about it as 
part of my peer-to-peer systems curriculum, and running the node since 
0.3 days), mostly because in my personal opinion its goals (and the 
goals of Locutus, to that end) can no longer be achieved in the modern 
world of cheap and infinite on-demand computing. The window of 
opportunity for that had closed about 10 years ago. But seeing something 
which was dear and near to me being mismanaged in this way is still 
pretty... painful.


Regards,
Victor Denisov.

On 18.01.2023 19:11, Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide wrote:


Ian Clarke  writes:


On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 11:40 AM Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide  
wrote:

  Ian Clarke  writes:
  > What "room"? I've already said, the constituency I care about is the next 
generation. You don't speak for them.

  You do not care about the currently existing, vibrant Freenet Community?

I care about the maintainers and users of Fred, and I've said I do


This is the room that Freenet304987 is talking about.

Best wishes,
Arne

Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[Ian Clarke]

On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 11:08 AM David Dernoncourt 
wrote:

> As "just a regular user" and node runner who just poked around a few PRs,
> the main issues I have with this are 1) "what the Hell is Locutus" and 2)
> wow that's confusing.
>
> Sure, 1) is just (mostly) a rhetorical question. But it seems quite an
> unusual thing to "steal" the name of a software (even more so when said
> software is still actively maintained) to stamp it on another software that
> doesn't have any relationship with the other one beside being supported by
> the same foundation and sharing the same (or a similar enough) mission
> statement.
>

That's not what's happening. The name always belonged to the *mission*, not
to any particular piece of software. This is why we were careful not to tie
it to any particular codebase when we wrote it:

*The specific purpose of this corporation is to assist in developing and
disseminating technological solutions to further the open and democratic
distribution of information over the Internet or its successor electronic
communication networks or organizations. It is also the purpose of this
organization to guarantee consenting individuals the free, unmediated, and
unimpeded reception and impartation of all intellectual, scientific,
literary, social, artistic, creative, human rights, and cultural
expressions, opinions and ideas without interference or limitation by or
service to state, private, or special interests. It is also the purpose of
this organization to educate the world community and be an advocate of
these purposes.*


> As far as suggestions go, even though (if it's not obvious) I don't
> support this change either (I would rather prefer, for instance, "Freenet
> Locutus" vs "Freenet Classic", dropping "Freenet [period]" instead of
> hijacking it), my suggestion would be to find a way to make it crystal
> clear that names were swapped and to point out clearly and concisely the
> key differences between the "old" Freenet and the "new" one.
>

My intention is that the websites will make this *very* clear, people
looking for Fred will find Fred, people looking for Locutus will find
Locutus. There is risk, as I said, but there is risk in every non-trivial
decision.

Ian.

-- 
Ian Clarke
Founder, The Freenet Project
Email: i...@freenetproject.org

More information on Locutus

[Ian Clarke]

A number of people have said that they haven't heard much about Locutus, so
here are some pointers:

   - A video  introduction to Locutus from
   July 2022
   - A video  interview I did
   with Louis Rossmann (a popular YouTuber) in September 2022
   - A Matrix  chat room
   where interested people and developers discuss Locutus
   - A detailed roadmap 
   for the next few months of development
   - The Locutus code 

Ian.

-- 
Ian Clarke
Founder, The Freenet Project
Email: i...@freenetproject.org

Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide]

Ian Clarke  writes:

> On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 11:40 AM Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide  
> wrote:
>
>  Ian Clarke  writes:
>  > What "room"? I've already said, the constituency I care about is the next 
> generation. You don't speak for them.
>
>  You do not care about the currently existing, vibrant Freenet Community?
>
> I care about the maintainers and users of Fred, and I've said I do

This is the room that Freenet304987 is talking about.

Best wishes,
Arne
-- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein,
ohne es zu merken.
draketo.de


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[Ian Clarke]

On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 11:40 AM Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide 
wrote:

>
> Ian Clarke  writes:
> > What "room"? I've already said, the constituency I care about is the
> next generation. You don't speak for them.
>
> You do not care about the currently existing, vibrant Freenet Community?
>

I care about the maintainers and users of Fred, and I've said I do - this
is why I've been discussing this with you for the last 18 months to ensure
that I gave your perspective a fair hearing, even if I ultimately didn't
agree with it.

Ian.

-- 
Ian Clarke
Founder, The Freenet Project
Email: i...@freenetproject.org

Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide]

Ian Clarke  writes:
> What "room"? I've already said, the constituency I care about is the next 
> generation. You don't speak for them.

You do not care about the currently existing, vibrant Freenet Community?

Best wishes,
Arne
-- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein,
ohne es zu merken.
draketo.de


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[Ian Clarke]

On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 11:05 AM Freenet304987 
wrote:

> Ian Clarke  wrote:
> > You're entitled to your opinion, but I don't agree.
>
> That's another grave misunderstanding:
> This is not "my" opinion.
>

Yes it is.


> The core of it is the opinion of **EVERYONE** in this room,
> Nobody wants your forced theft of the project's name,
> not even a minority!
>

What "room"? I've already said, the constituency I care about is the next
generation. You don't speak for them.


> You're acting like King Joffrey in GoT where he is completely
> isolated and proceeds to scream "I AM THE KING!!!"
>

Don't be silly.

-- 
Ian Clarke
Founder, The Freenet Project
Email: i...@freenetproject.org

Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[Ian Clarke]

On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 10:55 AM Freenet304987 
wrote:

> Ian Clarke  wrote:
> That's fine.
> But you absolutely do **not** have to steal the name of an existing
> software for that.
>

The name - which I came up with - never belonged to one codebase, it
belonged to the mission. This was the case from the beginning, which is
precisely why our mission statement didn't mention any specific
implementation.


> Millions of software projects were able to come up with a unique
> and good name, so can you.
>

I did, 24 years ago.


> You say you're against technology being a force of oppression.
> And you do that in the same thread where you're trying to oppress
> the people who have been running your software project for
> decades, for free.
>

Don't be silly, me not doing what you think I should do isn't "oppression".


> This is beyond ungrateful.
> It is utterly vile and you should be ashamed.
>

I'm happy to hear different perspectives, but this melodramatic language
helps nobody.

Ian.

-- 
Ian Clarke
Founder, The Freenet Project
Email: i...@freenetproject.org

Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[Juiceman]

On Wed, Jan 18, 2023, 12:08 PM David Dernoncourt 
wrote:

> As "just a regular user" and node runner who just poked around a few PRs,
> the main issues I have with this are 1) "what the Hell is Locutus" and 2)
> wow that's confusing.
>
> Sure, 1) is just (mostly) a rhetorical question. But it seems quite an
> unusual thing to "steal" the name of a software (even more so when said
> software is still actively maintained) to stamp it on another software that
> doesn't have any relationship with the other one beside being supported by
> the same foundation and sharing the same (or a similar enough) mission
> statement.
>

Speaking of steal:
https://trademarks.justia.com/874/39/freenet-87439977.html

While I do understand the reasoning of "I can't come up with a better name
> to describe what we're doing", boy, how confusing is that. 20-something
> year old software suddenly becomes totally different. Imagine Mozilla
> rebranding "Thunderbird" as "Firefox" and "Firefox" as "Firefox Classic"
> (and on top of that you've never head of Thunderbird), what a mess this
> would be.
>
> As far as suggestions go, even though (if it's not obvious) I don't
> support this change either (I would rather prefer, for instance, "Freenet
> Locutus" vs "Freenet Classic", dropping "Freenet [period]" instead of
> hijacking it), my suggestion would be to find a way to make it crystal
> clear that names were swapped and to point out clearly and concisely the
> key differences between the "old" Freenet and the "new" one.
>
> On Tue, Jan 17, 2023, at 15:04, Ian Clarke wrote:
> > Dear Freenet users and developers,
> >
> > I hope this email finds you well. I am writing to inform you of an
> > important change that the Freenet Project board voted on unanimously on
> > Friday. After much discussion over the past 18 months, we have decided
> > to rename the codebase and software known internally as "Fred," to
> > "Freenet Classic."
> >
> > In addition, we are announcing that the new codebase, known internally
> > as "Locutus," will be renamed to "Freenet." We understand that this is
> > a big change and it carries risk, but the board believes that this risk
> > is necessary in order to further the project's mission.
> >
> > It is important to note that this change does *not* mean that Locutus
> > is replacing Fred, which solves related but different problems. We will
> > ensure that where Fred is the appropriate tool for people they will be
> > directed to it.  Freenetproject.org will remain focused on Fred while
> > linking to Locutus - as it has been for over two decades - while
> > freenet.org will place more emphasis on Locutus, while still linking to
> > Fred.
> >
> > We will be implementing these changes over the coming days and weeks
> > and would be grateful for your ideas and suggestions on how best to do
> > this.
> >
> > Thank you,
> >
> > Ian
> >
> > --
> > Ian Clarke
> > Founder, The Freenet Project
> > Email: i...@freenetproject.org
>

Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[David Dernoncourt]

As "just a regular user" and node runner who just poked around a few PRs, the 
main issues I have with this are 1) "what the Hell is Locutus" and 2) wow 
that's confusing.

Sure, 1) is just (mostly) a rhetorical question. But it seems quite an unusual 
thing to "steal" the name of a software (even more so when said software is 
still actively maintained) to stamp it on another software that doesn't have 
any relationship with the other one beside being supported by the same 
foundation and sharing the same (or a similar enough) mission statement.

While I do understand the reasoning of "I can't come up with a better name to 
describe what we're doing", boy, how confusing is that. 20-something year old 
software suddenly becomes totally different. Imagine Mozilla rebranding 
"Thunderbird" as "Firefox" and "Firefox" as "Firefox Classic" (and on top of 
that you've never head of Thunderbird), what a mess this would be.

As far as suggestions go, even though (if it's not obvious) I don't support 
this change either (I would rather prefer, for instance, "Freenet Locutus" vs 
"Freenet Classic", dropping "Freenet [period]" instead of hijacking it), my 
suggestion would be to find a way to make it crystal clear that names were 
swapped and to point out clearly and concisely the key differences between the 
"old" Freenet and the "new" one.

On Tue, Jan 17, 2023, at 15:04, Ian Clarke wrote:
> Dear Freenet users and developers,
>
> I hope this email finds you well. I am writing to inform you of an 
> important change that the Freenet Project board voted on unanimously on 
> Friday. After much discussion over the past 18 months, we have decided 
> to rename the codebase and software known internally as "Fred," to 
> "Freenet Classic."
>
> In addition, we are announcing that the new codebase, known internally 
> as "Locutus," will be renamed to "Freenet." We understand that this is 
> a big change and it carries risk, but the board believes that this risk 
> is necessary in order to further the project's mission.
>
> It is important to note that this change does *not* mean that Locutus 
> is replacing Fred, which solves related but different problems. We will 
> ensure that where Fred is the appropriate tool for people they will be 
> directed to it.  Freenetproject.org will remain focused on Fred while 
> linking to Locutus - as it has been for over two decades - while 
> freenet.org will place more emphasis on Locutus, while still linking to 
> Fred.
>
> We will be implementing these changes over the coming days and weeks 
> and would be grateful for your ideas and suggestions on how best to do 
> this.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Ian
>
> -- 
> Ian Clarke
> Founder, The Freenet Project
> Email: i...@freenetproject.org

Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[Freenet304987]

Ian Clarke  wrote:
> You're entitled to your opinion, but I don't agree.

That's another grave misunderstanding:
This is not "my" opinion.

The core of it is the opinion of **EVERYONE** in this room,
Nobody wants your forced theft of the project's name,
not even a minority!

And the rest of what I said is also very likely the opinion
of a great majority of everyone who has been taking care
of your project for free for decades.
I know that because I actually talk to them, unlike you.

Learn to read the room.

You're acting like King Joffrey in GoT where he is completely
isolated and proceeds to scream "I AM THE KING!!!", hoping
to get his authority back, even though he has zero.
Someone who has to scream he is the king is **not**.


Sent with Proton Mail secure email.

Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[Freenet304987]

Ian Clarke  wrote:
> The constituency I'm concerned with are the children growing up
> today facing a world where technology is a force of oppression
> and control, not a force for good. Business as usual hasn't
> addressed this and won't address it, that's why I'm doing
> something about it.

That's fine.
But you absolutely do **not** have to steal the name of an existing
software for that.

Millions of software projects were able to come up with a unique
and good name, so can you.

Hell, nowadays you could even have ChatGPT etc. generate one.
You studied CS "and artificial intelligence", use it.

Besides:
You say you're against technology being a force of oppression.
And you do that in the same thread where you're trying to oppress
the people who have been running your software project for
decades, for free.
This is beyond ungrateful.
It is utterly vile and you should be ashamed.

Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide]

Ian Clarke  writes:

> I know exactly who he is, I was asking who he was speaking on behalf
> of since he was claiming to speak on behalf of the "Freenet
> community", quite a bold claim.

He did not claim that. It’s just how it seemed to you.

Yet despite not claiming it, Steve actually has the backing of the other
core developers and maintainers. And from what I’ve seen in the Freenet
community spaces, he also has the backing of the Freenet community.

Best wishes,
Arne
-- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein,
ohne es zu merken.
draketo.de


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[Ian Clarke]

On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 9:40 AM Florent Daigniere <
florent-free...@daigniere.com> wrote:

> I'll help answer that one: He is a long-standing volunteer who is one of
> the current Release Managers; He has also been helping me with system
> administration for the project and still has access to most systems to
> this day.
>
> The fact that you are not aware of it just goes to show how disconnected
> you are from the community.
>

I know exactly who he is, I was asking who he was speaking on behalf of
since he was claiming to speak on behalf of the "Freenet community", quite
a bold claim.


> Bringing in "the board" in an argument of authority is an asshat move:
>

That's how non-profits work, their boards vote on important decisions.

Regardless of the outcome I can't help but think that this should have
> been handled better.
>

Perhaps, but pleasing everyone isn't and was never my job. The constituency
I'm concerned with are the children growing up today facing a world where
technology is a force of oppression and control, not a force for good.
Business as usual hasn't addressed this and won't address it, that's why
I'm doing something about it.

Ian.

-- 
Ian Clarke
Founder, The Freenet Project
Email: i...@freenetproject.org

Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[Ian Clarke]

You're entitled to your opinion, but I don't agree.

On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 9:33 AM Freenet304987 
wrote:

> Ian,
>
> for over 10 years, I have been a member of the Freenet community, too.
>
> You have some grave misunderstandings which I would like to clear up.
>
> They concern:
> - what you think you're entitled to do vs. what you actually are.
> - what you think your personal qualities are vs. the actual ones.
> - *especially* what you think the consequences of forcing this
> through will be vs. what they actually will be.
> - what Freenet needs.
>
> You seem to believe that by inventing Freenet, you own it and can do
> whatever you want with it forever.
>
> You discovered its math, which is great, but that does not make
> you the owner of the math, math has no owner.
>
> Instead, Freenet, like any other open source software, is a meritocracy.
>
> You have not contributed **any** useful merit for well over 10 years.
> You do not write code.
> You do not regularly communicate with the team.
> You do not even talk to the users on Freenet itself.
> And I am fairly confident you haven't even used Freenet in ages.
> Typically, you are only one thing: absent for years.
> Then all you do is burst into the "room" every once in a while, tell
> everyone that what they're doing is garbage, and boss them around.
>
> Hence you're **not** entitled to use the name Freenet like you want to.
> The people who have been writing the code for the past decades are.
>
>
> Which brings us to your qualities:
>
> Yes, by having a dominant, pushy character, you are good at acquiring
> funding.
> But unfortunately, this is also what is called narcissism.
> You are the absolutely stereotypical manager which annoys everyone
> who does the **actual** work.
> You are not just bad at helping a team of developers, but you're
> actually **so bad** that the only thing you do is interrupt them.
>
> Let's talk about the elephant in the room:
> Nobody on the core team likes you.
> None.
> They only don't say this because they're afraid of your outbursts.
> You're an obstacle to them, and have been for a long time.
>
> The only reason you haven't been banned yet is that migrating
> the infrastructure would have been detrimental to Freenet's users and
> a waste of time.
> But this only applies up to a certain level of misbehavior.
>
>
> So while you think you can just force the developers to do what you
> want, what will actually happen is this:
> They'll treat you as a malicious actor, an attacker, like any other
> open source project would do, and fork the project - under the
> **original** name.
> Because Freenet aims to prevent censorship.
> That includes censorship of Freenet itself.
>
> They will publicly discredit you, and you'll be known **not** as the
> great leader you think you are, but just another person who turned
> evil.
> Look at how everyone hates Elon Musk, that's you, just with less money.
>
>
> Finally, let's talk about what Freenet needs:
> Freenet needs not your vision, but to be left alone by you.
> While you have been rambling here, Arne has merged dozens and dozens
> of pull requests, some of which are the 70th (!) part of continous work.
> Yes, it is a 20 years old codebase.
> But it has people who understand it, and who work to resolve its issues.
> People who have been working on it for **decades**.
> You sully their great efforts with your belief that you'd somehow still
> "own" Freenet.
>
> The patience to merge the 70th part of a branch, **as a volunteer**
> is ridiculously valuable and **not** something you can provide.
> **Especially** not something you should tamper with and mess up.
>
> Once your fancy new project is at the point where Freenet is now, it
> will be in the same situation:
> Rust won't be the cool toy of the day anymore, and someone will urge
> to rewrite it. Yet another 20 years wasted.
> The rewrite-treadmill is futile and must be avoided.
>
>
> Please do everyone a favor and step down as leader and transfer
> leadership to Arne who does the actual work.
>
> Stick to acquiring money for Locutus.
> Have fun with Locutus, nobody asks you to stop.
> But do **NOT** abuse the merit and name of the Freenet community to
> advertise Locutus.
> You did not add to Freenet's merit in a long time, so it is not your
> property.
>
> Locutus must have its own name and its own infrastructure.
> Move it to its own domain and GitHub with a different name than
> "Freenet".
> You do not deserve to use the name Freenet.
>
>
> Sent with Proton Mail secure email.
>


-- 
Ian Clarke
Founder, The Freenet Project
Email: i...@freenetproject.org

Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[Florent Daigniere]

Hi Ian,

I'll help answer that one: He is a long-standing volunteer who is one of
the current Release Managers; He has also been helping me with system
administration for the project and still has access to most systems to
this day.

The fact that you are not aware of it just goes to show how disconnected
you are from the community.

Bringing in "the board" in an argument of authority is an asshat move:
As you know, none of its members have had any active involvement with
the project nor its community for decades. In fact, looking at the list
of subscribers to @devl, I highly doubt that any of them aside from you
are on it; Prove me wrong, let them manifest themselves and defend what,
so far, can only be seen as an unilateral move from you.

Over a year ago we had a conversation about your plans for Locutus and
you shared your difficulties with finding a new/better name. I have
suggested that you you take it to the community and ask them to suggest
something. I can see that you have also discarded my views and concerns
here as I haven't seen anything before your "Important Announcement".

Regardless of the outcome I can't help but think that this should have
been handled better.

For the record, I am also strongly against renaming fred, especially to
"Freenet Classic" which was the name given to 0.5 when 0.7 was released.

NextGen$

On Tue, 2023-01-17 at 15:54 -0600, Ian Clarke wrote:
> Steve,
> 
> You're speaking as if you speak on behalf of the Freenet community.
> Who specifically are you speaking for and what gives you the ability
> to speak for them?
> 
> Ian.
> 
> On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 2:46 PM Steve Dougherty 
> wrote:
> > Hi Ian,
> > 
> > I'm surprised. I'm not sure what to say, or what reaction you and
> > the
> > rest of the board expected.
> > 
> > This is another demonstration of a complete disconnect between the
> > board
> > of FPI, and the community around Freenet. After giving up initial
> > plans
> > to name Locutus "Freenet 2" in the face of backlash, you and the
> > rest of
> > the board appear to now want still more of Freenet's brand
> > recognition.
> > The hope seems to be that the Freenet community, having not been
> > consulted, and reasonably assumed to disagree, will undertake the
> > effort
> > to rename themselves the Freenet Classic community.
> > 
> > I don't think this will happen. It would require buy-in, and it has
> > none.
> > 
> > - Steve
> 
> 

Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[Freenet304987]

Ian,

for over 10 years, I have been a member of the Freenet community, too.

You have some grave misunderstandings which I would like to clear up.

They concern:
- what you think you're entitled to do vs. what you actually are.
- what you think your personal qualities are vs. the actual ones.
- *especially* what you think the consequences of forcing this
through will be vs. what they actually will be.
- what Freenet needs.

You seem to believe that by inventing Freenet, you own it and can do
whatever you want with it forever.

You discovered its math, which is great, but that does not make
you the owner of the math, math has no owner.

Instead, Freenet, like any other open source software, is a meritocracy.

You have not contributed **any** useful merit for well over 10 years.
You do not write code.
You do not regularly communicate with the team.
You do not even talk to the users on Freenet itself.
And I am fairly confident you haven't even used Freenet in ages.
Typically, you are only one thing: absent for years.
Then all you do is burst into the "room" every once in a while, tell
everyone that what they're doing is garbage, and boss them around.

Hence you're **not** entitled to use the name Freenet like you want to.
The people who have been writing the code for the past decades are.


Which brings us to your qualities:

Yes, by having a dominant, pushy character, you are good at acquiring
funding.
But unfortunately, this is also what is called narcissism.
You are the absolutely stereotypical manager which annoys everyone
who does the **actual** work.
You are not just bad at helping a team of developers, but you're
actually **so bad** that the only thing you do is interrupt them.

Let's talk about the elephant in the room:
Nobody on the core team likes you.
None.
They only don't say this because they're afraid of your outbursts.
You're an obstacle to them, and have been for a long time.

The only reason you haven't been banned yet is that migrating
the infrastructure would have been detrimental to Freenet's users and
a waste of time.
But this only applies up to a certain level of misbehavior.


So while you think you can just force the developers to do what you
want, what will actually happen is this:
They'll treat you as a malicious actor, an attacker, like any other
open source project would do, and fork the project - under the
**original** name.
Because Freenet aims to prevent censorship.
That includes censorship of Freenet itself.

They will publicly discredit you, and you'll be known **not** as the
great leader you think you are, but just another person who turned
evil.
Look at how everyone hates Elon Musk, that's you, just with less money.


Finally, let's talk about what Freenet needs:
Freenet needs not your vision, but to be left alone by you.
While you have been rambling here, Arne has merged dozens and dozens
of pull requests, some of which are the 70th (!) part of continous work.
Yes, it is a 20 years old codebase.
But it has people who understand it, and who work to resolve its issues.
People who have been working on it for **decades**.
You sully their great efforts with your belief that you'd somehow still
"own" Freenet.

The patience to merge the 70th part of a branch, **as a volunteer**
is ridiculously valuable and **not** something you can provide.
**Especially** not something you should tamper with and mess up.

Once your fancy new project is at the point where Freenet is now, it
will be in the same situation:
Rust won't be the cool toy of the day anymore, and someone will urge
to rewrite it. Yet another 20 years wasted.
The rewrite-treadmill is futile and must be avoided.


Please do everyone a favor and step down as leader and transfer
leadership to Arne who does the actual work.

Stick to acquiring money for Locutus.
Have fun with Locutus, nobody asks you to stop.
But do **NOT** abuse the merit and name of the Freenet community to
advertise Locutus.
You did not add to Freenet's merit in a long time, so it is not your
property.

Locutus must have its own name and its own infrastructure.
Move it to its own domain and GitHub with a different name than
"Freenet".
You do not deserve to use the name Freenet.


Sent with Proton Mail secure email.

Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[Ian Clarke]

On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 4:53 AM Marco A. Calamari 
wrote:

Hi Marco, I hope you are well.

But in fact, I too do not understand the total silence on this subject on
> all Freenet lists, including announce, before you mail.
>

As I said, I have been discussing this with Arne for 18 months to ensure I
understood the perspective of those likely to oppose it. Making this a
public debate would have created far more heat than light because branding
is an inherently subjective issue. If it were an architectural question a
different approach would be appropriate.


> IMHO it will be useful, and more polite too, to send some post here with
> link to your video and public Locutus documents.
>

All relevant information on Locutus is available at https://freenet.org/ -
I'm surprised that this hasn't been more widely discussed among Fred users,
none of it has been a secret. I've done interviews about it on popular
YouTube channels.


> P.S. any trip to Italy in the near future?
>

None planned but I'd love to get back there someday, nice to hear from you
Marco.

Ian.

-- 
Ian Clarke
Founder, The Freenet Project
Email: i...@freenetproject.org

Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[Ian Clarke]

On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 11:49 PM Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide 
wrote:

>
> Ian Clarke  writes:
> > Apologies to mutt users, but Freenet's mainstream brand recognition has
> been on an uninterrupted
> > downward trajectory since 2004:
> >
> > freenet-trend.png
>
> You are showing the US-trend. Let’s look at the trend in a country where
> there was PR done:
>

I'm glad to see it, people searching for Freenet will arrive at either
freenetproject.org or freenet.org - which will direct them to
freenetproject.org if they are looking for Fred.

Ian.

-- 
Ian Clarke
Founder, The Freenet Project
Email: i...@freenetproject.org

Re: Important Announcement: Freenet naming change

[Marco A. Calamari]

Hi Ian, how are you?

Being a lurker of Freenet in the last 10 years, after my initial involvement,  I
have no moral right to discuss the subject.

But in fact, I too do not understand the total silence on this subject on all
Freenet lists, including announce, before you mail.

IMHO it will be useful, and more polite too, to send some post here with link to
your video and public Locutus documents. 

I write this, of course, without taking any personal position on this subject. 

I know branding is very important in general, but is the evil himself in my
personal philosophy.

I'll start to study Locutus a little , and thanks, as always, for your work.

Marco

P.S. any trip to Italy in the near future?

On mar, 2023-01-17 at 08:04 -0600, Ian Clarke wrote:
> Dear Freenet users and developers,
> 
> I hope this email finds you well. I am writing to inform you of an important
> change that the Freenet Project board voted on unanimously on Friday. After
> much discussion over the past 18 months, we have decided to rename the
> codebase and software known internally as "Fred," to "Freenet Classic."
> 
> In addition, we are announcing that the new codebase, known internally as
> "Locutus," will be renamed to "Freenet." We understand that this is a big
> change and it carries risk, but the board believes that this risk is necessary
> in order to further the project's mission.
> 
> It is important to note that this change does not mean that Locutus is
> replacing Fred, which solves related but different problems. We will ensure
> that where Fred is the appropriate tool for people they will be directed to
> it.  Freenetproject.org will remain focused on Fred while linking to Locutus -
> as it has been for over two decades - while freenet.org will place
> more emphasis on Locutus, while still linking to Fred.
> 
> We will be implementing these changes over the coming days and weeks and would
> be grateful for your ideas and suggestions on how best to do this.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Ian
>