Re: htod feature request: save commands in translated file
On Sun, 17 Oct 2010 20:39:02 -0500 Andrei == Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Andrei Whaddya think? Andrei Andrei It's useful, as would be the addition on 2010/10/17 at Andrei 20:38:50 CST and the htod version used. What about http://github.com/klickverbot/swig/commits/swigd (Swig4D) to create D-bindings for C-libs? Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: htod feature request: save commands in translated file
On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 17:39:46 +0200 Andrej == Andrej Mitrovic wrote: Andrej This is cool! I was going to look for some SWIG-like tools Andrej these days. I saw the swig4d project on dsource, but it's page Andrej says it's abandoned. I didn't know there was an active on Andrej github. Thanks. And today I went and skimmed over Swig's docs...Boy, it has improved a LOT since I was looking at it some years ago. It seems I can tweak D-side of the interface to bring some type-safety to the bindings (something I was accustomed to while being in Haskell world where one can tailor Haskell side of the data and have types checked at compile time). Otoh, it would be nice if someone could clear this stalled data on dsource.org which just helps spreading FUD about D. Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: The Next Big Language
On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 10:52:34 -0700 Walter == Walter Bright wrote: Hello Walter, Walter 1. People who won't use D for an irrational or unflattering Walter reason. They'll search about for some other reason that is Walter publicly acceptable. Any reason will do. You can tell them by Walter if you resolve that reason, they just find another one. Resolve Walter that, they find another one. Etc. Walter Walter 2. They're trolls. Any successful product will attract these. today my copy of TDPL arrived and now I'm ready to start adventure called Learning D. However, I'm curious if there is something that this community consisting digitalmars.D subscribers can do to help making D2 even more successful? I'm asking seeing that this newsgroup creates quite some traffic which could be possibly deployed even more creatively to improve D's ecosystem. Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: The Next Big Language
On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 22:23:02 +0400 Denis == Denis Koroskin 2kor...@gmail.com wrote: Denis What D currently lacks is a code written in it. I also think a Denis stable standard IDE and GUI library is a must for a wide D Denis adoption. That may be true...I hope QtD will become ready soon and for now IDE I've chosen to use Emacs + Waf (as build system). What about libs? Is one supposed to mostly use C-libs as 'batteries included' considering that, afaics, Phobos is not supposed to be too big? Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Ddoc to PDF
On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 11:14:54 -0700 Walter == Walter Bright newshou...@digitalmars.com wrote: Walter I think this would be great to include in the D distribution, Walter with a web page with step-by-step instructions. May I ask here whether Ddoc is recommended way to document D code over e.g. Doxygen etc.? I'm starting and would like to adopt proper tools... Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Ddoc to PDF
On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 11:19:59 -0700 David == David Gileadi gilea...@nspmgmail.com wrote: David Presuming that custom format is HTML then this is close to David actuality. During the look 'n' feel changes for David d-programming-language.org I experimented with using wkhtmltopdf David (http://code.google.com/p/wkhtmltopdf/) to generate PDF versions David of the documentation using the print CSS styles. Besides a David couple of defects to do with page numbering the results looked David very good. +1 wkhtmltopdf looks very good, although I had problem with it or let's say with php-wkhtmltox extension. Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: The Next Big Language
On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 21:24:58 +0200 Andrej == Andrej Mitrovic andrej.mitrov...@gmail.com wrote: Andrej In the absence of D ones you can use C libraries. But it's not Andrej a big issue, there's plenty of C libs out there and they can be Andrej easily used from D. There's no need for special wrappers Andrej either, unless you want to make an OO interface for a C lib Andrej (this is something the DSFML project does). Yeah. C-libs can be easily used in D but then there is no type safety and the apps is becoming as stable as C lib. That's why using SwigD sounds appealing to me to provide higher-level API in D and catch some type errors during compile time, if possible. That's why we've come to D, iow, to have 'something better'. ;) Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Ddoc to PDF
On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 14:57:13 -0400 Steven == Steven Schveighoffer schvei...@yahoo.com wrote: Steven However, all the d-based tools parse the same ddoc style, so no Steven matter what tool you use, you should use ddoc to document your Steven code. Thanks a lot. That's what I needed to hear. ;) Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: What do people here use as an IDE?
On Sat, 16 Oct 2010 08:59:10 -0500 Andrei == Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Andrei Yah. Emacs' formatting abilities are like real estate prices in Andrei Houston: once you got calibrated to them, it's hard to move Andrei away. It looks there is no perfect IDE for D available (yet) - Qt is missing D support, Codeblocks lacks integration with e.g. QtD...so now when we'll start learning D (when will this TDPL arrive), I think I may just continue using Emacs, but I wonder if you (D users using Emacs) can recommend what would be the best code-completion system for it? Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Current status of DB libraries in D
On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 14:42:08 -0400 Jesse == Jesse Phillips jessekphillip...@gmail.com wrote: Jesse My tip for knowing what language version a library works for is Jesse actually found on Wiki4d[1], but all it is is: does it mention Jesse support for D2? If it does not you are looking at a D1 project. Jesse You will have to look at example code or the library to decide Jesse if it is Tango or Phobos from there. It would be nice if the wiki could be cleaned a bit...Same goes for dsource.org to clean it from dead projects and make it more easy to find out what's alive and working. Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Is D right for me?
On Sun, 10 Oct 2010 00:46:47 -0700 Jonathan == Jonathan M Davis wrote: Jonathan Yes, a lack of positive feedback can be frustrating even if Jonathan you have the best code ever. And as much as the developers of Jonathan QtD likely want to use it for their own stuff, it's likely Jonathan not worth doing it just for themselves. It's just too much Jonathan work. Well, I tried to do my little 'homework'...wrote to the QtD devs explaining them that their project is essential to adopting D for our project. Moreover, informed them that only for the sake of trying QtD I've created 32bit chroot on my machine(64bit dmd, do you hear me?) and got some help on #qtd in order to build hello world (instructions at http://www.dsource.org/projects/qtd/wiki/BuildLinux are now up-to-date). Lastly, I told devs that despite of current status of QtD, we have decided to 'gamble' and will use D/QtD for our project. The next step is to order Andrei's book, start learning the language, experiment with non-GUI stuff and try to help (in any way) to push QtD further. Jonathan QtD is a huge service to the D community. Indeed! Coming from Haskell community where all the GUI libs (bindings) are in hands of just few devs, I sincerely hope that users of D will recognize importance of QtD for the success of language itself and help the project to become complete and fully usable asap. Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: CMake for D2 ready for testers
On Sat, 9 Oct 2010 16:48:15 +0200 Gour == Gour D. g...@atmarama.net wrote: Gour Rationale? I forgot to add: x) deps are determined by hash and not by timestamps Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: CMake for D2 ready for testers
On Sat, 09 Oct 2010 10:56:45 +0100 Russel == Russel Winder wrote: Russel I thought Waf did zipfiles as well, SCons certainly does both. Correct. Default in Waf is bzip2, with the support for gzip zip. Russel Is there a need for anything else beyond those? Not really. Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: CMake for D2 ready for testers
On Sat, 09 Oct 2010 10:19:50 +0100 Russel == Russel Winder wrote: Russel Personally I am principally an Emacs and command line person so Russel IDE is low on my agenda, though I use SCons as my build tool Russel when using Eclipse/CDT. SCons has the capability if creating Russel Visual Studio project files -- and we have to be honest here Russel and say that most C and C++ coding happens in Visual Studio -- Russel and whilst I don't think there is currently CodeBlock support Russel it would be relatively easy to put it in place. I am fairly Russel sure Waf has some facilities in this area. I also use Emacs, but might use CodeBlocks if we the members of the team agree on it. There is plan to support creating Codeblock files in waf. Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: CMake for D2 ready for testers
On Sat, 9 Oct 2010 12:06:46 +0200
Jens == Jens Mueller wrote:
Jens Wow. They have excellent documentation.
Indeed. I'm just reading it.
Jens Only finds a program, right? I'd like to find a library. I.e. I
Jens need the path to the header files and the library files. I'll
Jens guess there is something like find_file.
There is, e.g. ctx.find_file('fstab', ['/opt', '/etc'])
Jens I do not know how important this whole Windows integration is,
Jens but with CMake you can generate a Windows installer.
That's missing in Waf.
Jens Together with Visual Studio support it's a good choice if Windows
Jens is your main client. Could be the reason why CMake is used so
Jens often.
In my case, I'll develop on Linux.
Sincerely,
Gour
--
Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA
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Re: CMake for D2 ready for testers
On Sat, 09 Oct 2010 11:30:44 +0100 Russel == Russel Winder wrote: Russel Can you keep me informed about the result? Just curious which Russel features influenced your final decision. Russel Russel I'd love to know as well. All too often people make decisions Russel and the decision gets promulgated, but without the rationale Russel for the decision. It is the decision+rationale that is so Russel useful for future decision making. OK. Based on that I've read tried, I'm going to start with Waf. Rationale? a) I consider it's better investment of my time to become a little bit more familiar with Python in order to write Waf scripts (I'll have to tinker with e.g. Roundup tracker etc.) instead of learning another scripting language used in only one product. b) Missing features in Waf can be added considering there is complete programming language on disposal in comparison with limited and obscure language in CMake. c) although not up-to-date, but this benchmark (http://tinyurl.com/25do5ez) and some other reviews show that performance of Waf is quite decent in comparison with CMake and consider we won't write a new KDE, we consider it is enough for out purpose. d) Waf works on all the platforms we need, has normal support via mailing list, IRC and it is actively developed. e) it is, imho, more open-source project with decent documentation, iow. no need to google alot nor to buy (expensive) book to master it. f) there is out-of-the box support for D g) considering that Was is 'better' or 'fixed' Scons and projects like Samba are using it, we hope it will fulfill all our needs for a multi-platform GUI project in D. Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA signature.asc Description: PGP signature
[YES]Re: Is D right for me?
On Tue, 05 Oct 2010 19:26:58 -0400 Jesse == Jesse Phillips wrote: Jesse But I can not state that cross-platform GUI is available for D Jesse at this time. Despite of that we've decided to take a risk and choose with D (hopefully it will become ready) QtD. Thanks to all who replied and see you in newer threads. ;) Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Why all the D hate?
On Tue, 24 Aug 2010 11:55:43 -0700 Walter == Walter Bright newshou...@digitalmars.com wrote: Walter What we may be seeing here is an effect I noticed decades ago Walter with the Zortech compiler. Let's say you have the Zortech Walter compiler, and BrandX compiler. Heh...I remember Zortech coming with tons of nicely printed documentation in grey hardbox...That was the golden are of docs. ;) Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: CMake for D2 ready for testers
On Sun, 5 Sep 2010 22:28:41 -0700 SK == SK s...@metrokings.com wrote: SK Why labor over buggy Makefiles when you could be laboring over buggy SK CMake files at a much more productive level of abstraction? :o) Do you recommend to learn use CMake instead of using tools like Xfbuild (I'm interested for D project and, so far, was accustomed to Haskell's Cabal, so looking for similar experience.) Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: CMake for D2 ready for testers
On Fri, 08 Oct 2010 17:26:25 +0100 Russel == Russel Winder rus...@russel.org.uk wrote: Russel For C, C++, Fortran, and hence D, I personally find CMake Russel awkward and clumsy. Hmm...based on what I know, CMake is universe for itself...not the most readable syntax etc., but it looks robust, capable of building large projects, cpack generating output in several formats, project files for different IDEs... Russel I generally prefer SCons or Waf -- Waf is Russel originally a fork of SCons but now is its own thing, and is Russel aimed at being an Autotools replacement (get source download Russel and build on this machine type model). That's what we would like as well...although generating project files (e.g. for CodeBlock if others agree on common IDE across platforms) and/or generating package formats, installers...I bet that both waf Scons do not support that? Russel SCons is better at Russel handling the sort of situation I have: source repository shared Russel by many platforms all needing builds in situ. Waf is somewhat Russel faster than SCons. That makes it more attractive. Russel For my sins I am peripherally involved in Russel the SCons development community, and I at some time elected Russel myself as the maintainer of the D plugin -- the plugin as D Russel shipped until recently with SCons assumed D 1.0 and I am only Russel using D 2.0. So when I asked who could fix the problem, the Russel answer came back you can, so I did, sort of :-) It would be Russel good if there was a community of D/SCons users so as to get Russel some headway on making the SCons D plugin as good as it needs Russel to be. Am I right that there is support for D in waf as well? Russel Isn't Cabal a dependency resolution system rather than a build Russel system? i.e. Cabal sits in the same sort of position as Apt, Russel Ivy, the Maven dependency resolution system, rather than being Russel the equivalent of Ant +Ivy or Maven as a whole. (C, C++, Russel Fortran, and D seem to be less interested in depndency Russel resolution than the JVM-based milieu of Java, Scala, Groovy, Russel Clojure, etc. hence the Ant/Maven perspective.) Well, Cabal stands for Common Architecture for Building Applications and Libraries so it is used for resolving deps, building the system and installing it (it can also build C-libs). So, we'll investigate a bit about CMake, waf... Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: CMake for D2 ready for testers
On Fri, 8 Oct 2010 21:41:55 +0200
Jens == Jens Mueller jens.k.muel...@gmx.de wrote:
Jens I also think CMake isn't that shiny. But you can get the job done
Jens once you're familiar with it. And it has been adopted by some big
Jens projects: Blender 3D, Boost, clang, KDE, LLVM, MiKTeX, MySQL (see
Jens http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cmake#Applications_using_CMake).
Jens That should be put into consideration.
Here is the waf list:
http://code.google.com/p/waf/wiki/ProjectsUsingWaf
Jens I never used this but CMake has generators for Visual Studio and
Jens through the Makefile Generators you can integrate it in
Jens CodeBlocks and Eclipse. Don't know how important this is. I live
Jens happily with the generated Makefiles.
in waf's TODO I found some similar items, although not labelled as
high-priority:
+ IDE file generator (msvc, codeblocks)
+ CMake file interpreter
Jens Coming back to the original question. I can recommend CMake
Jens especially if one plans to do C and C++ programming. For D we
Jens (Steve, Dean and I) are trying to improve the support. Fixing Mac
Jens OSX is next on my list.
My primary interest is D and developing on Linux, although we want our
app to run on Mac Windows as well (hopefully using QtD).
Jens I have to admit I neither know Scons nor Waf. Maybe these are
Jens superior. They're Python-based, right? I'll guess that makes them
Jens favorable for Python programmers.
Waf really looks good and, afaics, it's more extensible than Scons.
Here is the table with some comparisons:
http://code.google.com/p/waf/wiki/WafAndOtherBuildSystems
Jens On top of my head some things I find nice in CMake. Just curious
Jens whether Scons/Waf have similar features.
I'm not at all familiar with waf, just read a bit about it and here is
the feature list:
http://code.google.com/p/waf/
and here is the 'book':
http://freehackers.org/~tnagy/wafbook160p3/
Jens * Find Google Test/other libraries (if supported) in one line:
Jens find_package(GTest REQUIRED)
I see something like:
ctx.find_program('touch', var='TOUCH')
Jens * Tight integration for testing and packaging (ctest, cpack)
Only dist for tarballs, afaict.
Jens * Publishing build/test results
No idea.
Jens * No dependencies besides a C++ compiler for installation.
This is one advantage of waf that it only requires ~80K python script
which is, usually, distributed with the sources.
Jens * Continuous Integration watching subversion repository
The above page says: provides automatic rebuilds for continuous
integration
Jens * Valgrind/Purify integration
Considering Samba uses Waf, Google returned:
http://wiki.samba.org/index.php/Debugging_individual_tests
Moreover, since the system uses full-featured programming language,
probably there are no restriction what can be done...
In any case, it's interesting and we'll put it on our evaluation-list.
Sincerely,
Gour
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Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA
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Re: Is D right for me?
On Fri, 08 Oct 2010 00:24:52 +1100 Justin == Justin Johansson wrote: Justin I think that long are the days that a single individual (or Justin corporation) can own a language. It will be an unwinnable Justin battle so long as the governance of D is under the auspices of Justin a single mortal. I agree that, based on my short research about D, I see several places with the label 'room for improvement' like (more) open development process, using of DVCS, planning releases, better organized web sites, up-to-date wiki, more docs etc. Still, I believe that things are improving or, at least, there are still people enthused with D. That's why I'm curious how to proceed my evaluation phase in order to be able to properly decide for our project? (Running 108 variations of Hello world is not adequate test, neither of the language, nor for the tools.) So, my question is whether is there some option to get more complete coverage of the language (D2) besides TDPL book which will require some time to arrive here in Croatia (I found that book is worthy purchase no matter what we decide about D eventually)? Justin There is too much risk for investors of time let alone pecuniary Justin investors under the current regime. I agree here...this is e.g. one of the reasons to cautious to invest my time in learning using ConTeXt (http://www.pragma-ade.com/) seeing it practically as one-man-band mostly pushed by one developer (Hans Hagen), no matter how talented he is and I'll continue using LyX/LaTeX. btw, my question on SO (http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3863111/haskell-or-d-for-gui-desktop-application or http://is.gd/fPK36) got one nice response from Don Stewart who wrote: Let's tease out some requirements here, and I'll try to make the Haskell case. Perhaps the D fans or others could try to do the same., so it would be nice, at least for other users, that some more experienced D user writes The Case for D (no pun intended). Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Is D right for me?
On Thu, 7 Oct 2010 15:36:36 + (UTC) bioinfornatics == bioinfornat...@fedoraroject.org wrote: bioinfornatics For me i will use D1 while ldc do not support D2 or if bioinfornatics GDC come a GCC project and support D2. Until this is bioinfornatics not done a big community part do not go to D2. Hmm...based on that I saw, I consider that D2 features are much more compelling when comparing D with Haskell...Hopefully, in a few months some things may change in D2 arena... Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Is D right for me?
On Tue, 05 Oct 2010 22:46:26 +0200 Daniel == Daniel Gibson wrote: Daniel What about using gtk instead of qt? I was considering gtk on haskell-side as well, but considering we'd like to have 'lite' version of the application available on mobile platform (Meego), it seems that it's better to have (more) common codebase provided by Qt. Moreover, we were told by dev working on gtk port for Mac that wx is more suitable if Mac OS is important for us. Since there is no wxQt, Qt emerged as clean winner here... Well it's à la Gnus. You have never seen it or you are thinking something else? -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Is D right for me?
On Tue, 05 Oct 2010 16:06:00 -0700 Walter == Walter Bright newshou...@digitalmars.com wrote: Walter Few things work better than customers letting a company know Walter they are interested in such-and-such a product. Even a non-paying customer in the open-source world? Well, I'm going to send email to two people considering them important for QtD, based on what I could deduce... Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Is D right for me?
On Wed, 06 Oct 2010 09:30:36 +0200 Anders == Anders F Björklund wrote: Anders http://wxwidgets.blogspot.com/2010/07/gsoc-2010-mid-term.html Anders Anders And http://wiki.wxwidgets.org/WxQt for the current state of the Anders port. Thank you for those links. It is very nice to see wxQT getting a nice shape, but the problem is with wxD - it's D1 only and I'm sure that, considering we don't have D1 legacy, there is no reasonable to think about D1 (especially in comparison with Haskell's features). Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Is D right for me?
On Wed, 06 Oct 2010 09:35:13 +0200 Jacob == Jacob Carlborg wrote: Jacob Have you considered DWT? It's a port of the Eclipse project SWT, Jacob a cross-platform GUI library. The windows and linux ports are Jacob usable, although a little behind SWT. As for Mac OS X, the Cocoa Jacob port is a work in progress, somethings are usable and somethings Jacob are not. I got same suggestion on #d yesterday and went to see it today. Interesting, but, afaics, no port for D2 which rules it out. Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA signature.asc Description: PGP signature
is D too modern for Emacs?
Hello! After exploring preliminary stuff in regard to the feasibility to adopt D as our next project's programming language, it's time to check about tools/editors support... So, I'm a little bit surprise what is the reason the newest entry on http://prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?EditorSupport/EmacsEditor page says: Updated Mar 2, 2007 by Bill Baxter Is it really that D is too modern for Emacs? Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Is D right for me?
On Wed, 06 Oct 2010 20:35:57 +0400 Denis == Denis Koroskin wrote: Denis Did you try DWT2? http://hg.dsource.org/projects/dwt2 No, but 'doob' on #dwt (it seems this is Jacob Carlborg) replied my question: hi, is dwt available for d2? with no, not currently, so I bet I saved some time trying it for myself. Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: is D too modern for Emacs?
On Wed, 06 Oct 2010 12:38:12 -0500 Andrei == Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Andrei I'm using d-mode.el everyday and it's of good quality. /me is very happy hearing such news :-) Andrei 2007 is the creation date, it was last updated one year later Andrei (see http://www.billbaxter.com/etc/d-mode.el). Bill and I have Andrei modified it a couple of times and I think I messed with mine a Andrei bit without committing (I think I added a keyword or so). You Andrei should be in good shape with it. Cool. It would be nice to have more up-to-date info on wiki. Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: is D too modern for Emacs?
On Wed, 06 Oct 2010 19:39:47 +0200 Daniel == Daniel Gibson wrote: Daniel http://prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?EditorSupport/EmacsDMode Daniel Seems to be a bit more up to date.. there is a patch from Daniel august 2009 Patching failed, so I had to manually did it...however with the patch it invokes debugger, while the plain file kind a works (tested on Hello world). Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: What would you rewrite in D?
On Wed, 06 Oct 2010 23:47:58 +0200 Daniel == Daniel Gibson wrote: Daniel If that isn't the case I do understand your objection.. I hate Daniel non native GUIs as well (java swing is particularly bad). Although I'm still hankering to see QtD, I'm just curious (not having experience with) how does SWT (DWT) can compare in regards? Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: What would you rewrite in D?
On Wed, 6 Oct 2010 16:40:06 -0700 Jonathan == Jonathan M Davis wrote: Jonathan That's definitely cool if it can, but as far as I know, I've Jonathan never seen it done. wxwidget apps always seem to look like Jonathan gtk in Linux (aka butt-ugly - I hate the look of gtk; I'd Jonathan have to be truly desperate to even consider writing an ap Jonathan that used gtk). Well, wxQt is work in progress and when done, then wxwidgets would have a chance to work differently on Linux. Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Is D right for me?
Hello! I'd like some help to resolve the subject's question... Let me start with my background...Finished Computer Engineering studies and during that period was introduced to several programming languages (including some assembly stuff) starting with Fortran C, a little Prolog and did my thesis by programming simulator for coloured Petri nets using Zortech C++ - that was in 1990 :-) I also playing with Smalltalk a bit...I'm saying as small emphasis that D would not be my 1st programming language. Later, my life went away from programming into totally different area and today programming is not my occupation, but should serve my hobby projects. After my 'programming come-back', I explored Ruby a bit, checked Ocaml shortly (did not like syntax) and wanting something 'new', I ended up tinkering with Haskell. For my web purposes I wanted to use Django, but realized that not being web developer, there is no sense to write so many code, when I can achieve the same by learning some PHP (which I do these days) in order to tweak and/or write some missing module for my preferred CMS (Made Simple). Similarly, to create invoices for our startup 'company', I abandoned GNUCash which requires tinkering with Scheme (Guile) and decided to use SimpleInvoices (PHP MySQL web app). The keyword here is 'pragmatism', iow. understanding that one needs to make some compromises in order to get job done. Now, we're back at D...Saw a Reddit thread yesterday which inspired me to think (once again) about Haskell vs D... So, we want a general programming language to work on our open-source (we plan GPL) hobby project which is desktop GUI application and besides the need to develop several libs for it, it needs to use C-lib (Swiss Ephemeris). Are there other alternatives? Well, I do not like Java, VMs (Scala included)., want something 'modern' to avoid manual memory management, pointers etc., higher-level...which eliminates C(++). Scripting languages (Perl, Python) are too slow and I'm aware of some projects from the same domain which switched from Python to C++. I'm not interested in LISP-family ala Clojure, neither inspired by C#,Go... We want to develop on Linux (running x86_64 I7 cpu) and have app working on Mac and possibly Windoze. For a long time I was thinking about gtk2hs bindings, but since Mac platform became important for us (supervisor of the project recently switched to it), I abandoned GTK. I was even advised by one dev working on GTK Mac port that wx(haskell) is better solution if we target Mac. However, we would like to write kind of 'desktop-lite' app here idea to use Qt Meego was born, since there is no wxQT port. I was sorry to discover yesterday that QtD project is suspended. :-( So, let's recap in regards to Haskell vs D. a) I like Haskell syntax, its type-system, purity and the concept of separating pure code from non-pure (e.g. IO), HOF. Community is very friendly and growing (1st time when i visited #haskell it was 100 users, today probably 600), there are lot of packages available on Hackage, GHC is keeping strong, Cabal build system is nice, QuickCheck... Otoh, many libs/packages are not adequately documented, there is joke that one needs PhD to use the language, lot of papers but with strong influence from academia and one has to encounter lot of terminology from category theory etc. although maybe wanting to 'just get the job done' - iow, Haskell could become more pragmatic. Moreover, to get better performance, laziness with its non-determinism might be a problem and/or profiling to discover leaks is not straightforward and/or code becomes more ugly. :-) D, from the other side, is younger language, community is not so big, language is, afaict, evolving very rapidly and it's not easy to tell which compiler to use, which libs etc. Moreover, I'm a bit worried on the state of GUI libs available for D, especially about QtD. Moreover, 64-bit is not ready (yet), although I'm told it should come soon. What about ARM if we want to target MeeGo in the future? I also did not research what is the state of database support...Now we're thinking to use sqlite3 as back-end. Our project will be developed in free time and we want language which is easy to maintain because the project (with all desired features) might evolve into a big one during the period of several years. I also have experience that some potential developers did not join our team since Haskell was to hard to grok for them (coming from C++), so D might be an easier path with less steep learning curve, but I also wonder about myself whether I could pick D quickly enough (I'll buy book, of course) after long exposure to Haskell and FP. I read The Case for D article and saw Andrei's Google talk - it was funny to see Google people being like little children when questioned by him :-) So, can you offer some advice, what could be better choice between Haskell D for our planned project with the following features: a) maintainable
Re: Is D right for me?
On Tue, 05 Oct 2010 12:52:22 +0200 Simen == Simen kjaeraas simen.kja...@gmail.com wrote: Simen This is a big problem for D at this point. The language is no Simen longer evolving (much), and we're at a point in time where Simen libraries and toolchain parts need to be written. That's nice to hear and it's solvable. Simen It will. Latest news (2 days ago) say it's now getting as far as Simen main(), which is good. Great! Simen I believe GDC supports ARM. Hmm, baes on http://dgcc.sourceforge.net/ it looks it is not overly active? Simen There's a list here: Simen http://www.wikiservice.at/d/wiki.cgi?DatabaseBindings Simen Simen However, most of those are for D1, and a large percentage seem Simen to be abandoned. :-( Simen SQLite seems to be well supported, with 7 projects claiming Simen support. Why so many? Similar to Haskell where one can find bunch of libs doing practically the same thing, but most of them half-baked. Simen I'm sure you can. D also supports programming styles closer to Simen those of FP, making such a transition easier (I hope :p) This is certainly bonus. Simen a) maintainable code Simen Simen This is likely a bit subjective, and much more dependent upon the Simen programmers themselves than the language used. I agree. Otoh, afaict, D use modules/packages, so code can be nicely organized, as well as in Haskell. Simen - Contract programming in the form of pre and post contracts for Simenfunctions[1]. Simen - Class invariants[2]. Simen - Built in unit testing[3]. Simen - Documentation comments[4]. Simen Simen Of course, other features of D may increase maintainability, but Simen those are the ones most directly associated with it. Not bad.;) Simen b) decent performance Simen Simen D is generally as fast as C, though some abstractions of course Simen cost more than others. This is, probably, more than we'd need, but definitely no fear as with e.g. Python co. Simen c) higher-level programming and suitable for general Simen programming tasks Simen Simen My impression (not having used Haskell), D wins hands down on the Simen latter, and is a bit weaker on the former. Still, I believe, D provides much more comfortable higher-order experience than C++. Simen d) good library support (database stuff, data structures, Qt Simen GUI...) Simen Simen Likely Haskell is better here (as noted above, D has some Simen problems in this regard). Lack of GUI libs for D2 is serious concern atm. Simen The bus-factor of D is sadly close to 1. If Walter should choose Simen to leave, we have a problem. On the other hand, I don't think a Simen mere bus would keep him from continuing the project. Uhh...this is almost like a showstopper or, at least, very strong anti-adoption pattern. :-( It is even worse than Haskell where GHC has bus-factor =2 and there are other compilers like uhc, lhc, jhc...there is even Haskell committee working on Haskell' (prime) standard. Simen Here I can't help. I don't know Haskell. Thanks a lot. It is helpful, although with a little discouraging end. :-( Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Is D right for me?
On Tue, 05 Oct 2010 15:39:30 +0200 Daniel == Daniel Gibson metalcae...@gmail.com wrote: Daniel try http://bitbucket.org/goshawk/gdc/wiki/Home :-) Ahh, this looks much better. Thanks. ;) Daniel I don't think it's as serious, because afaik Walter is not the Daniel only one developing the dmd compiler (and thus familiar with Daniel it) and, more importantly, there are alternative D compilers Daniel (gdc and ldc, with at least gdc being actively developed). So, both gdc ldc are open-source? What about standard libs? Daniel So even if Walter, for whatever reason, stops developing D, Daniel there is - IMHO - a good chance that others will continue his Daniel efforts and keep D alive. This is not so disheartening. :-) btw, I've asked similar/same question on SO http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3863111/haskell-or-d-for-gui-desktop-application if you want to contribute (I'm not much advised for D, so far). ;) Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Is D right for me?
On Tue, 05 Oct 2010 16:00:48 +0200 Daniel == Daniel Gibson metalcae...@gmail.com wrote: Daniel So, both gdc ldc are open-source? Daniel Daniel Yes. Nice. It means that, in the future, we could target ARM as well (for MeeGo). Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Is D right for me?
On Tue, 05 Oct 2010 16:01:41 +0200 Don == Don nos...@nospam.com wrote: Don I would estimate the truck factor as between 2.0 and 2.5. Two Don years ago, the truck factor was 1.0, but not any more. Nice, nice...Still SO people say: Neither Haskell nor D is popular enough for it to be at all likely that you will ever attract a single other developer to your project... :-) If just QtD hadn't been suspended... Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Is D right for me?
On Tue, 05 Oct 2010 11:29:03 -0500 Andrei == Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Andrei If developer attraction is a concern, you're likely better off Andrei with D. Programmers who have used at least one Algol-like Andrei language (C, C++, Java, C#) will have no problem feeling Andrei comfortable in D. With Haskell you'd need to stick with the Andrei choir. Yeah, I'm aware of it... btw, let me personally congatulate for a great talk at Google! Andrei I agree that's a bummer. I suggest you write the developers and Andrei ask what would revive their interest. The perspective of a Andrei solid client is bound to be noticeable. You think that D beginner with a open-source project is solid client? Otoh, there is nothing to lose... Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Is D right for me?
On Tue, 05 Oct 2010 23:59:07 +0400 Denis == Denis Koroskin 2kor...@gmail.com wrote: Denis ...increasingly more people are unsatisfied with D2 and talking Denis about a fork so I wouldn't be surprised to see one sooner or Denis later (!) Unsatisfied that D2 changed (too) much or with bugs and development in general? To me, it looks very early to fork D2... Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Is D right for me?
On Tue, 05 Oct 2010 16:14:49 -0400 Jesse == Jesse Phillips jessekphillip...@gmail.com wrote: Jesse Every language you choose will have its issue, and your listed Jesse requirements are basically set up so the answer is 'none.' Not Jesse one language fulfills every requirement for various reasons. True. Jesse It sounds to me like you want to use Haskel but due to the loss Jesse in potential help you are looking at D. Well, I'm somewhat familiar with Haskell and have zero experience with D. Not even knowing which build system one use to develop. Jesse You will have to support the libraries you use or wait Jesse patiently. I am not saying there isn't code to use or people Jesse willing/working to support that code. I mean that we are a small Jesse community and have had some ruff hills to clime. Right. I'm ready to help, according to my skills, the projects providing bindings as I'd do to e.g. help qthaskell project, but with Haskell one, at least, does not start from the scratch. Here, I'd choose D, it is not certain that QtD will be revived at any time in the future. Jesse Lots of libraries/tools were written for D1, lots of libraries Jesse were written using Tango (D1 only). Even when effort was taken Jesse to support D2, the result was a broken library on a future Jesse compiler release (it was expected as it was clearly stated, no Jesse longer the issue). Otoh, GHC is quite stable and 7.0 is just around the corner... Jesse So even if something claims support for D2 it may require work Jesse to bring it up to the latest language specs. But the community Jesse is working, things are progressing. And I don't think D will be Jesse dieing. But I already heard rumors about the fork of D2? JesseThe more libraries D has, the more users will come and Jesse use the language resulting in more libraries. Right now we are Jesse missing some vital libraries that everyone wants, but no one Jesse wants to make/maintain (usually do to time issues). I'm following Haskell community for quite some time and I know when there was no Hackage at all, iow I can understand what it means 'young' community. However, it looks that D1 -- D2 has brought different winds, altgough it will probably pay off later. Jesse In relation to compilers[1] I would not worry about it. By the Jesse time your project reaches a stage that must work an more Jesse platforms, it is likely that LDC and GDC, and maybe even DMD Jesse will be updated for D2 and a multitude of platforms. Correct. Having choice for compiler is great and makes one peaceful. Jesse But for a GUI library, you would probably need to choose one Jesse and progress it as you do the project. This is a big problem for a desktop GUI project making the whole project very uncertain right from the beginning... Jesse I do not wish to discourage you from choosing D, but feel it is Jesse always good to know what to expect. And really you could Jesse probably start your project, test the components you wish to Jesse use. It should be pretty obvious if you find something you Jesse couldn't live with. As I wrote earlier, besides sqlite3 bindings and using existent C-lib which needs to be bound to D, we need to write lot of native libs for our app, but it all fails without proper GUI. Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: CDBF17CA signature.asc Description: PGP signature
