subject:"Re\: MS extend C\+\+ significantly for Windows8... and Andrei got name drop"


Even if you paint shit yellow it's not necessarily gold.


:D

Re: MS extend C++ significantly for Windows8... and Andrei got name drop


This is fairly interesting. MS have extended their C++ compiler
significantly for Windows8 with a bunch of non-standard stuff.


Yeah, while refusing to implement most of C++11.

Re: MS extend C++ significantly for Windows8... and Andrei got name drop

On 25 January 2012 21:47, bls bizp...@orange.fr wrote:

 On 01/25/2012 07:03 AM, Manu wrote:

 This is fairly interesting. MS have extended their C++ compiler
 significantly for Windows8 with a bunch of non-standard stuff.
 FINALLY implement garbage collection, ref counting, properties,
 delegates, events, generics, etc...
 If other compilers adopt this tech, D loses some advantages.


 But you still have to fight with ifndef ,forward declaration, and a
 template syntax against common sense.  Even if you paint shit yellow it's
 not necessarily gold.


True, but I think this will mitigate a lot of the motivation Windows devs
have to seek another language if they're not developing cross platform apps.

Sadly, since WinRT requires using these language extensions to interface
with the new windows runtime, you won't be able to write a Windows8 app in
D.
Interestingly though, D supports almost everything they've added to C++. I
wonder if it would be possible to do extern(Windows8) to produce a
compatible ABI for linking with MS C++ apps?

The most interesting features are 'ref new' and 'gcnew', which makes me
wonder, since Windows8 has an OS garbage collector, would it be at all
possible to have D use the Windows8 GC? I'd prefer this to using D's own GC
if it would be supported, and obviously this would be a requirement if D
was going to interact with WinRT properly.
Also, WinRT uses 'ref new' to allocate ref counted (effectively COM to my
understanding) objects. I think I read somewhere that D already has
extern(COM) no? I wonder if Windows8 ref type linkage is already
technically supported in D?

Re: MS extend C++ significantly for Windows8... and Andrei got name drop

On 25 January 2012 23:33, Trass3r u...@known.com wrote:

 This is fairly interesting. MS have extended their C++ compiler
 significantly for Windows8 with a bunch of non-standard stuff.


 Yeah, while refusing to implement most of C++11.


Good! The C++11 committee should be shot. They've got it completely wrong,
and MS have it right for my money! :)
I don't want MORE STL, I want less :)

Re: MS extend C++ significantly for Windows8... and Andrei got name drop


On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 13:35:38 -0800, Manu turkey...@gmail.com wrote:


On 25 January 2012 21:47, bls bizp...@orange.fr wrote:


On 01/25/2012 07:03 AM, Manu wrote:


This is fairly interesting. MS have extended their C++ compiler
significantly for Windows8 with a bunch of non-standard stuff.
FINALLY implement garbage collection, ref counting, properties,
delegates, events, generics, etc...
If other compilers adopt this tech, D loses some advantages.



But you still have to fight with ifndef ,forward declaration, and a
template syntax against common sense.  Even if you paint shit yellow  
it's

not necessarily gold.



True, but I think this will mitigate a lot of the motivation Windows devs
have to seek another language if they're not developing cross platform  
apps.


Sadly, since WinRT requires using these language extensions to interface
with the new windows runtime, you won't be able to write a Windows8 app  
in

D.
Interestingly though, D supports almost everything they've added to C++.  
I

wonder if it would be possible to do extern(Windows8) to produce a
compatible ABI for linking with MS C++ apps?

The most interesting features are 'ref new' and 'gcnew', which makes me
wonder, since Windows8 has an OS garbage collector, would it be at all
possible to have D use the Windows8 GC? I'd prefer this to using D's own  
GC

if it would be supported, and obviously this would be a requirement if D
was going to interact with WinRT properly.
Also, WinRT uses 'ref new' to allocate ref counted (effectively COM to my
understanding) objects. I think I read somewhere that D already has
extern(COM) no? I wonder if Windows8 ref type linkage is already
technically supported in D?


There is no Win8GC, it's all ref counted. WinRT is COM with extras and as  
such should be accessible to D. It would need some extra glue code over  
what we have now ... like the IInspectable interface.


And yes, I am running Win8.

--
Adam Wilson
Project Coordinator
The Horizon Project
http://www.thehorizonproject.org/

Re: MS extend C++ significantly for Windows8... and Andrei got name drop

2012-01-25 Thread Brad Anderson

On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 2:38 PM, Manu turkey...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 25 January 2012 23:33, Trass3r u...@known.com wrote:

  This is fairly interesting. MS have extended their C++ compiler
 significantly for Windows8 with a bunch of non-standard stuff.


 Yeah, while refusing to implement most of C++11.


 Good! The C++11 committee should be shot. They've got it completely wrong,
 and MS have it right for my money! :)
 I don't want MORE STL, I want less :)


Herb Sutter (the man speaking in your video) is chairman of the C++
standards committee so it's kind of amusing that the stuff you praise and
the stuff you say is wrong are both led by the same man. Also, he and
Andrei wrote a book together (C++ Coding Standards) so the name drop isn't
entirely unexpected.  They do the C++ and Beyond conference together (with
Scott Meyers).  A large portion of the questions from the attendees I saw
in the Channel 9 videos were about D.

It's kind of sad to see Microsoft doing so much work in interesting areas
with C++ that I won't get to use because it's proprietary (AMP, for
instance).

Regards,
Brad Anderson

Re: MS extend C++ significantly for Windows8... and Andrei got name drop

Am 25.01.2012 22:35, schrieb Manu:

On 25 January 2012 21:47, bls bizp...@orange.fr
mailto:bizp...@orange.fr wrote:

On 01/25/2012 07:03 AM, Manu wrote:

This is fairly interesting. MS have extended their C++ compiler
significantly for Windows8 with a bunch of non-standard stuff.
FINALLY implement garbage collection, ref counting, properties,
delegates, events, generics, etc...
If other compilers adopt this tech, D loses some advantages.

But you still have to fight with ifndef ,forward declaration, and a
template syntax against common sense. Even if you paint shit yellow
it's not necessarily gold.

True, but I think this will mitigate a lot of the motivation Windows
devs have to seek another language if they're not developing cross
platform apps.

Sadly, since WinRT requires using these language extensions to interface
with the new windows runtime, you won't be able to write a Windows8 app
in D.
Interestingly though, D supports almost everything they've added to C++.
I wonder if it would be possible to do extern(Windows8) to produce a
compatible ABI for linking with MS C++ apps?

The most interesting features are 'ref new' and 'gcnew', which makes me
wonder, since Windows8 has an OS garbage collector, would it be at all
possible to have D use the Windows8 GC? I'd prefer this to using D's own
GC if it would be supported, and obviously this would be a requirement
if D was going to interact with WinRT properly.
Also, WinRT uses 'ref new' to allocate ref counted (effectively COM to
my understanding) objects. I think I read somewhere that D already has
extern(COM) no? I wonder if Windows8 ref type linkage is already
technically supported in D?

It is an extension of the COM model. There is a new COM interface that
extends IUnknown, which provides a reflection API.

Everything is explained in the BUILD 2011 videos,
http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/BUILD/BUILD2011?sort=sequentialdirection=descterm=t=c%2B%2B

Many of the new ideas are actually based on what Delphi together with
C++ Builder and VCL already provided.

Anyway this goes to show that eventually all system programming
languages will have GC or Refcounted memory management. As I already

mentioned here a few times when memory management discussions pop up.

--
Paulo

Re: MS extend C++ significantly for Windows8... and Andrei got name drop

2012-01-25 Thread F i L

Is this open source and a benefit to developers writing for 
non-MS platforms? Nope. Then sorry MS, but I hardly care.

Re: MS extend C++ significantly for Windows8... and Andrei got name drop


Am 25.01.2012 22:33, schrieb Trass3r:

This is fairly interesting. MS have extended their C++ compiler
significantly for Windows8 with a bunch of non-standard stuff.


Yeah, while refusing to implement most of C++11.


To be fair, they did implement a big part of the library.

But I do share your opinion here. I hate the way that Microsoft
cherry picks the C and C++ standards, only implement the parts
that they feel like, while adding Windows specific extensions.

When the other vendors were busy making their compilers C++98
compliant, Microsoft was adding COM programming extensions.

Since 2002, the Visual C++ team has spent resources developing
Managed C++, C++/CLI and now C++/CX, besides the XBox backends and
C++ standard efforts.

How much more standards compliant wouldn't Visual C++ be, if Microsoft
would be more standards friendly. Still these are business decisions.

--
Paulo

Re: MS extend C++ significantly for Windows8... and Andrei got name drop


Am 25.01.2012 20:47, schrieb bls:

On 01/25/2012 07:03 AM, Manu wrote:

This is fairly interesting. MS have extended their C++ compiler
significantly for Windows8 with a bunch of non-standard stuff.
FINALLY implement garbage collection, ref counting, properties,
delegates, events, generics, etc...
If other compilers adopt this tech, D loses some advantages.


But you still have to fight with ifndef ,forward declaration, and a
template syntax against common sense. Even if you paint shit yellow it's
not necessarily gold.


Worse is Better:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worse_is_better

Re: MS extend C++ significantly for Windows8... and Andrei got name drop

Good! The C++11 committee should be shot. They've got it completely  
wrong, and MS have it right for my money! :)

I don't want MORE STL, I want less :)


C++11 contains important stuff like for each, auto and #1: non-static  
member initializers.

Re: MS extend C++ significantly for Windows8... and Andrei got name drop


Yeah, while refusing to implement most of C++11.


To be fair, they did implement a big part of the library.


I care more about long overdue language changes like non-static member  
initializers.



But I do share your opinion here. I hate the way that Microsoft
cherry picks the C and C++ standards, only implement the parts
that they feel like, while adding Windows specific extensions.


Exactly.

Re: MS extend C++ significantly for Windows8... and Andrei got name drop

On 25 January 2012 23:59, Adam Wilson flybo...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 13:35:38 -0800, Manu turkey...@gmail.com wrote:

  On 25 January 2012 21:47, bls bizp...@orange.fr wrote:

  On 01/25/2012 07:03 AM, Manu wrote:

  This is fairly interesting. MS have extended their C++ compiler
 significantly for Windows8 with a bunch of non-standard stuff.
 FINALLY implement garbage collection, ref counting, properties,
 delegates, events, generics, etc...
 If other compilers adopt this tech, D loses some advantages.


 But you still have to fight with ifndef ,forward declaration, and a
 template syntax against common sense.  Even if you paint shit yellow it's
 not necessarily gold.


 True, but I think this will mitigate a lot of the motivation Windows devs
 have to seek another language if they're not developing cross platform
 apps.

 Sadly, since WinRT requires using these language extensions to interface
 with the new windows runtime, you won't be able to write a Windows8 app in
 D.
 Interestingly though, D supports almost everything they've added to C++. I
 wonder if it would be possible to do extern(Windows8) to produce a
 compatible ABI for linking with MS C++ apps?

 The most interesting features are 'ref new' and 'gcnew', which makes me
 wonder, since Windows8 has an OS garbage collector, would it be at all
 possible to have D use the Windows8 GC? I'd prefer this to using D's own
 GC
 if it would be supported, and obviously this would be a requirement if D
 was going to interact with WinRT properly.
 Also, WinRT uses 'ref new' to allocate ref counted (effectively COM to my
 understanding) objects. I think I read somewhere that D already has
 extern(COM) no? I wonder if Windows8 ref type linkage is already
 technically supported in D?


 There is no Win8GC, it's all ref counted. WinRT is COM with extras and as
 such should be accessible to D. It would need some extra glue code over
 what we have now ... like the IInspectable interface.


Really? So what's 'gcnew' for?

Re: MS extend C++ significantly for Windows8... and Andrei got name drop

On 26 January 2012 00:02, Brad Anderson e...@gnuk.net wrote:

 On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 2:38 PM, Manu turkey...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 25 January 2012 23:33, Trass3r u...@known.com wrote:

  This is fairly interesting. MS have extended their C++ compiler
 significantly for Windows8 with a bunch of non-standard stuff.


 Yeah, while refusing to implement most of C++11.


 Good! The C++11 committee should be shot. They've got it completely
 wrong, and MS have it right for my money! :)
 I don't want MORE STL, I want less :)


 Herb Sutter (the man speaking in your video) is chairman of the C++
 standards committee so it's kind of amusing that the stuff you praise and
 the stuff you say is wrong are both led by the same man. Also, he and
 Andrei wrote a book together (C++ Coding Standards) so the name drop isn't
 entirely unexpected.  They do the C++ and Beyond conference together (with
 Scott Meyers).  A large portion of the questions from the attendees I saw
 in the Channel 9 videos were about D.


Haha really? Amazing, but he works for Microsoft then I guess? So why is he
fixing C++ for MS, but won't fix the C++ standard its self? std::function
for instance, why add that if he turns around and adds a proper keyword for
MS?

It's kind of sad to see Microsoft doing so much work in interesting areas
 with C++ that I won't get to use because it's proprietary (AMP, for
 instance).


/agree ... but maybe enough people might demand some of those features in
GCC, and it could bleeds across...

Re: MS extend C++ significantly for Windows8... and Andrei got name drop


On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 14:28:46 -0800, Manu turkey...@gmail.com wrote:


On 25 January 2012 23:59, Adam Wilson flybo...@gmail.com wrote:


On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 13:35:38 -0800, Manu turkey...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 25 January 2012 21:47, bls bizp...@orange.fr wrote:


 On 01/25/2012 07:03 AM, Manu wrote:


 This is fairly interesting. MS have extended their C++ compiler

significantly for Windows8 with a bunch of non-standard stuff.
FINALLY implement garbage collection, ref counting, properties,
delegates, events, generics, etc...
If other compilers adopt this tech, D loses some advantages.



But you still have to fight with ifndef ,forward declaration, and a
template syntax against common sense.  Even if you paint shit yellow  
it's

not necessarily gold.


True, but I think this will mitigate a lot of the motivation Windows  
devs

have to seek another language if they're not developing cross platform
apps.

Sadly, since WinRT requires using these language extensions to  
interface
with the new windows runtime, you won't be able to write a Windows8  
app in

D.
Interestingly though, D supports almost everything they've added to  
C++. I

wonder if it would be possible to do extern(Windows8) to produce a
compatible ABI for linking with MS C++ apps?

The most interesting features are 'ref new' and 'gcnew', which makes me
wonder, since Windows8 has an OS garbage collector, would it be at all
possible to have D use the Windows8 GC? I'd prefer this to using D's  
own

GC
if it would be supported, and obviously this would be a requirement if  
D

was going to interact with WinRT properly.
Also, WinRT uses 'ref new' to allocate ref counted (effectively COM to  
my

understanding) objects. I think I read somewhere that D already has
extern(COM) no? I wonder if Windows8 ref type linkage is already
technically supported in D?



There is no Win8GC, it's all ref counted. WinRT is COM with extras and  
as

such should be accessible to D. It would need some extra glue code over
what we have now ... like the IInspectable interface.



Really? So what's 'gcnew' for?


That's for targeting the CLR (.NET) so it doesn't conflict with new/delete  
in regular C++. It goes all the way back to the first C++/CLI in Visual  
Studio 2005.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/te3ecsc8.aspx

--
Adam Wilson
Project Coordinator
The Horizon Project
http://www.thehorizonproject.org/

Re: MS extend C++ significantly for Windows8... and Andrei got name drop

On 26 January 2012 00:37, Adam Wilson flybo...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 14:28:46 -0800, Manu turkey...@gmail.com wrote:

  On 25 January 2012 23:59, Adam Wilson flybo...@gmail.com wrote:

  On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 13:35:38 -0800, Manu turkey...@gmail.com wrote:

  On 25 January 2012 21:47, bls bizp...@orange.fr wrote:


  On 01/25/2012 07:03 AM, Manu wrote:


  This is fairly interesting. MS have extended their C++ compiler

 significantly for Windows8 with a bunch of non-standard stuff.
 FINALLY implement garbage collection, ref counting, properties,
 delegates, events, generics, etc...
 If other compilers adopt this tech, D loses some advantages.


  But you still have to fight with ifndef ,forward declaration, and a
 template syntax against common sense.  Even if you paint shit yellow
 it's
 not necessarily gold.


  True, but I think this will mitigate a lot of the motivation Windows
 devs
 have to seek another language if they're not developing cross platform
 apps.

 Sadly, since WinRT requires using these language extensions to interface
 with the new windows runtime, you won't be able to write a Windows8 app
 in
 D.
 Interestingly though, D supports almost everything they've added to
 C++. I
 wonder if it would be possible to do extern(Windows8) to produce a
 compatible ABI for linking with MS C++ apps?

 The most interesting features are 'ref new' and 'gcnew', which makes me
 wonder, since Windows8 has an OS garbage collector, would it be at all
 possible to have D use the Windows8 GC? I'd prefer this to using D's own
 GC
 if it would be supported, and obviously this would be a requirement if D
 was going to interact with WinRT properly.
 Also, WinRT uses 'ref new' to allocate ref counted (effectively COM to
 my
 understanding) objects. I think I read somewhere that D already has
 extern(COM) no? I wonder if Windows8 ref type linkage is already
 technically supported in D?


 There is no Win8GC, it's all ref counted. WinRT is COM with extras and as
 such should be accessible to D. It would need some extra glue code over
 what we have now ... like the IInspectable interface.


 Really? So what's 'gcnew' for?


 That's for targeting the CLR (.NET) so it doesn't conflict with new/delete
 in regular C++. It goes all the way back to the first C++/CLI in Visual
 Studio 2005.
 http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-**us/library/te3ecsc8.aspxhttp://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/te3ecsc8.aspx


So there is a GC... It just happens to be the .net GC. Is that a problem?
Obviously it's accessible in C++ code. Can you use it to allocate C++
objects, or is it exclusively for some sort of interaction with .net?
If the rest of the platform is using it...

Re: MS extend C++ significantly for Windows8... and Andrei got name drop


Am 25.01.2012 23:35, schrieb Manu:

On 26 January 2012 00:02, Brad Anderson e...@gnuk.net
mailto:e...@gnuk.net wrote:

On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 2:38 PM, Manu turkey...@gmail.com
mailto:turkey...@gmail.com wrote:

On 25 January 2012 23:33, Trass3r u...@known.com
mailto:u...@known.com wrote:

This is fairly interesting. MS have extended their C++
compiler
significantly for Windows8 with a bunch of non-standard
stuff.


Yeah, while refusing to implement most of C++11.


Good! The C++11 committee should be shot. They've got it
completely wrong, and MS have it right for my money! :)
I don't want MORE STL, I want less :)


Herb Sutter (the man speaking in your video) is chairman of the C++
standards committee so it's kind of amusing that the stuff you
praise and the stuff you say is wrong are both led by the same man.
Also, he and Andrei wrote a book together (C++ Coding Standards) so
the name drop isn't entirely unexpected.  They do the C++ and Beyond
conference together (with Scott Meyers).  A large portion of the
questions from the attendees I saw in the Channel 9 videos were about D.


Haha really? Amazing, but he works for Microsoft then I guess? So why is
he fixing C++ for MS, but won't fix the C++ standard its self?
std::function for instance, why add that if he turns around and adds a
proper keyword for MS?


Because he is just one person in the standards process. That is how 
standards work.


Each person (or company) just gets one vote.

Re: MS extend C++ significantly for Windows8... and Andrei got name drop

On 26 January 2012 00:48, Paulo Pinto pj...@progtools.org wrote:

 Am 25.01.2012 23:35, schrieb Manu:

 On 26 January 2012 00:02, Brad Anderson e...@gnuk.net

 mailto:e...@gnuk.net wrote:

On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 2:38 PM, Manu turkey...@gmail.com
mailto:turkey...@gmail.com wrote:

On 25 January 2012 23:33, Trass3r u...@known.com
mailto:u...@known.com wrote:

This is fairly interesting. MS have extended their C++
compiler
significantly for Windows8 with a bunch of non-standard
stuff.


Yeah, while refusing to implement most of C++11.


Good! The C++11 committee should be shot. They've got it
completely wrong, and MS have it right for my money! :)
I don't want MORE STL, I want less :)


Herb Sutter (the man speaking in your video) is chairman of the C++
standards committee so it's kind of amusing that the stuff you
praise and the stuff you say is wrong are both led by the same man.
Also, he and Andrei wrote a book together (C++ Coding Standards) so
the name drop isn't entirely unexpected.  They do the C++ and Beyond
conference together (with Scott Meyers).  A large portion of the
questions from the attendees I saw in the Channel 9 videos were about
 D.


 Haha really? Amazing, but he works for Microsoft then I guess? So why is
 he fixing C++ for MS, but won't fix the C++ standard its self?
 std::function for instance, why add that if he turns around and adds a
 proper keyword for MS?


 Because he is just one person in the standards process. That is how
 standards work.

 Each person (or company) just gets one vote.


Yeah, well the chairman should have veto rights, and then do it right, like
they did at MS :P

Re: MS extend C++ significantly for Windows8... and Andrei got name drop


On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 14:44:09 -0800, Manu turkey...@gmail.com wrote:


On 26 January 2012 00:37, Adam Wilson flybo...@gmail.com wrote:


On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 14:28:46 -0800, Manu turkey...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 25 January 2012 23:59, Adam Wilson flybo...@gmail.com wrote:


 On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 13:35:38 -0800, Manu turkey...@gmail.com wrote:


 On 25 January 2012 21:47, bls bizp...@orange.fr wrote:



 On 01/25/2012 07:03 AM, Manu wrote:



 This is fairly interesting. MS have extended their C++ compiler


significantly for Windows8 with a bunch of non-standard stuff.
FINALLY implement garbage collection, ref counting, properties,
delegates, events, generics, etc...
If other compilers adopt this tech, D loses some advantages.


 But you still have to fight with ifndef ,forward declaration, and  
a

template syntax against common sense.  Even if you paint shit yellow
it's
not necessarily gold.


 True, but I think this will mitigate a lot of the motivation  
Windows

devs
have to seek another language if they're not developing cross  
platform

apps.

Sadly, since WinRT requires using these language extensions to  
interface
with the new windows runtime, you won't be able to write a Windows8  
app

in
D.
Interestingly though, D supports almost everything they've added to
C++. I
wonder if it would be possible to do extern(Windows8) to produce a
compatible ABI for linking with MS C++ apps?

The most interesting features are 'ref new' and 'gcnew', which makes  
me
wonder, since Windows8 has an OS garbage collector, would it be at  
all
possible to have D use the Windows8 GC? I'd prefer this to using D's  
own

GC
if it would be supported, and obviously this would be a requirement  
if D

was going to interact with WinRT properly.
Also, WinRT uses 'ref new' to allocate ref counted (effectively COM  
to

my
understanding) objects. I think I read somewhere that D already has
extern(COM) no? I wonder if Windows8 ref type linkage is already
technically supported in D?


There is no Win8GC, it's all ref counted. WinRT is COM with extras  
and as
such should be accessible to D. It would need some extra glue code  
over

what we have now ... like the IInspectable interface.



Really? So what's 'gcnew' for?



That's for targeting the CLR (.NET) so it doesn't conflict with  
new/delete

in regular C++. It goes all the way back to the first C++/CLI in Visual
Studio 2005.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-**us/library/te3ecsc8.aspxhttp://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/te3ecsc8.aspx



So there is a GC... It just happens to be the .net GC. Is that a problem?
Obviously it's accessible in C++ code. Can you use it to allocate C++
objects, or is it exclusively for some sort of interaction with .net?
If the rest of the platform is using it...


It's exclusively for the .NET Framework and requires the .NET Framework to  
be installed and loaded to run. It's the .NET Runtime, and as such, it  
would be VERY unwise to base anything D on it.


--
Adam Wilson
Project Coordinator
The Horizon Project
http://www.thehorizonproject.org/

Re: MS extend C++ significantly for Windows8... and Andrei got name drop


Am 25.01.2012 23:44, schrieb Manu:

On 26 January 2012 00:37, Adam Wilson flybo...@gmail.com
mailto:flybo...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 14:28:46 -0800, Manu turkey...@gmail.com
mailto:turkey...@gmail.com wrote:

On 25 January 2012 23:59, Adam Wilson flybo...@gmail.com
mailto:flybo...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 13:35:38 -0800, Manu
turkey...@gmail.com mailto:turkey...@gmail.com wrote:

  On 25 January 2012 21:47, bls bizp...@orange.fr
mailto:bizp...@orange.fr wrote:


  On 01/25/2012 07:03 AM, Manu wrote:


  This is fairly interesting. MS have extended their
C++ compiler

significantly for Windows8 with a bunch of
non-standard stuff.
FINALLY implement garbage collection, ref
counting, properties,
delegates, events, generics, etc...
If other compilers adopt this tech, D loses some
advantages.


But you still have to fight with ifndef ,forward
declaration, and a
template syntax against common sense.  Even if you
paint shit yellow it's
not necessarily gold.


True, but I think this will mitigate a lot of the
motivation Windows devs
have to seek another language if they're not developing
cross platform
apps.

Sadly, since WinRT requires using these language
extensions to interface
with the new windows runtime, you won't be able to write
a Windows8 app in
D.
Interestingly though, D supports almost everything
they've added to C++. I
wonder if it would be possible to do extern(Windows8) to
produce a
compatible ABI for linking with MS C++ apps?

The most interesting features are 'ref new' and 'gcnew',
which makes me
wonder, since Windows8 has an OS garbage collector,
would it be at all
possible to have D use the Windows8 GC? I'd prefer this
to using D's own
GC
if it would be supported, and obviously this would be a
requirement if D
was going to interact with WinRT properly.
Also, WinRT uses 'ref new' to allocate ref counted
(effectively COM to my
understanding) objects. I think I read somewhere that D
already has
extern(COM) no? I wonder if Windows8 ref type linkage is
already
technically supported in D?


There is no Win8GC, it's all ref counted. WinRT is COM with
extras and as
such should be accessible to D. It would need some extra
glue code over
what we have now ... like the IInspectable interface.


Really? So what's 'gcnew' for?


That's for targeting the CLR (.NET) so it doesn't conflict with
new/delete in regular C++. It goes all the way back to the first
C++/CLI in Visual Studio 2005.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-__us/library/te3ecsc8.aspx
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/te3ecsc8.aspx


So there is a GC... It just happens to be the .net GC. Is that a
problem? Obviously it's accessible in C++ code. Can you use it to
allocate C++ objects, or is it exclusively for some sort of interaction
with .net?
If the rest of the platform is using it...


You are mixing it.

Managed C++ was the first set of C++ extensions that target .NET. This 
was only part of .NET 1.x.


Experience showed that the extensions were not well thought out, and 
with the release of .NET 2.0, Microsoft introduced C++/CLI, while 
dropping support for Managed C++.


Both generate CLR bytecodes and make use of the .NET GC as well.

C++/CX is the new set of extensions and they target native code. Besides
the standard C++ code, there is support for a COM based object model, 
which is referenced counted. This is done via a new type, handles, which

call COM AddRef()/Release() under the hood.

--
Paulo

Re: MS extend C++ significantly for Windows8... and Andrei got name drop

2012-01-25 Thread Alex Rønne Petersen


On 25-01-2012 16:03, Manu wrote:

http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/BUILD/BUILD2011/TOOL-532T

This is fairly interesting. MS have extended their C++ compiler
significantly for Windows8 with a bunch of non-standard stuff.
FINALLY implement garbage collection, ref counting, properties,
delegates, events, generics, etc...
If other compilers adopt this tech, D loses some advantages.


Most of this is only available in C++/CLI. And for the record, C++/CLI 
tooling in VS is horrendous.




Oh, and Andrei got a nice little name drop around 35 minutes ;)


- Alex

Re: MS extend C++ significantly for Windows8... and Andrei got name drop


Am 26.01.2012 00:58, schrieb Alex Rønne Petersen:

On 25-01-2012 16:03, Manu wrote:

http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/BUILD/BUILD2011/TOOL-532T

This is fairly interesting. MS have extended their C++ compiler
significantly for Windows8 with a bunch of non-standard stuff.
FINALLY implement garbage collection, ref counting, properties,
delegates, events, generics, etc...
If other compilers adopt this tech, D loses some advantages.


Most of this is only available in C++/CLI. And for the record, C++/CLI
tooling in VS is horrendous.


No, it is also available in C++/CX. It is new in Windows 8/Visual Studio 
2011.

Re: MS extend C++ significantly for Windows8... and Andrei got name drop

On 26 January 2012 00:55, Adam Wilson flybo...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 14:44:09 -0800, Manu turkey...@gmail.com wrote:

  On 26 January 2012 00:37, Adam Wilson flybo...@gmail.com wrote:

  On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 14:28:46 -0800, Manu turkey...@gmail.com wrote:

  On 25 January 2012 23:59, Adam Wilson flybo...@gmail.com wrote:


  On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 13:35:38 -0800, Manu turkey...@gmail.com wrote:


  On 25 January 2012 21:47, bls bizp...@orange.fr wrote:


  On 01/25/2012 07:03 AM, Manu wrote:


  This is fairly interesting. MS have extended their C++ compiler

  significantly for Windows8 with a bunch of non-standard stuff.
 FINALLY implement garbage collection, ref counting, properties,
 delegates, events, generics, etc...
 If other compilers adopt this tech, D loses some advantages.


  But you still have to fight with ifndef ,forward declaration, and a

 template syntax against common sense.  Even if you paint shit yellow
 it's
 not necessarily gold.


  True, but I think this will mitigate a lot of the motivation Windows

 devs
 have to seek another language if they're not developing cross platform
 apps.

 Sadly, since WinRT requires using these language extensions to
 interface
 with the new windows runtime, you won't be able to write a Windows8
 app
 in
 D.
 Interestingly though, D supports almost everything they've added to
 C++. I
 wonder if it would be possible to do extern(Windows8) to produce a
 compatible ABI for linking with MS C++ apps?

 The most interesting features are 'ref new' and 'gcnew', which makes
 me
 wonder, since Windows8 has an OS garbage collector, would it be at all
 possible to have D use the Windows8 GC? I'd prefer this to using D's
 own
 GC
 if it would be supported, and obviously this would be a requirement
 if D
 was going to interact with WinRT properly.
 Also, WinRT uses 'ref new' to allocate ref counted (effectively COM to
 my
 understanding) objects. I think I read somewhere that D already has
 extern(COM) no? I wonder if Windows8 ref type linkage is already
 technically supported in D?


  There is no Win8GC, it's all ref counted. WinRT is COM with extras
 and as
 such should be accessible to D. It would need some extra glue code over
 what we have now ... like the IInspectable interface.


  Really? So what's 'gcnew' for?


 That's for targeting the CLR (.NET) so it doesn't conflict with
 new/delete
 in regular C++. It goes all the way back to the first C++/CLI in Visual
 Studio 2005.
 http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/te3ecsc8.aspxhttp://msdn.microsoft.com/en-**us/library/te3ecsc8.aspx
 http**://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/**library/te3ecsc8.aspxhttp://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/te3ecsc8.aspx
 



 So there is a GC... It just happens to be the .net GC. Is that a problem?
 Obviously it's accessible in C++ code. Can you use it to allocate C++
 objects, or is it exclusively for some sort of interaction with .net?
 If the rest of the platform is using it...


 It's exclusively for the .NET Framework and requires the .NET Framework to
 be installed and loaded to run. It's the .NET Runtime, and as such, it
 would be VERY unwise to base anything D on it.


.NET will be a requirement on all Win8 machines. You didn't answer though,
can you use the .NET GC to allocate C++ objects to use throughout your
native program? Or is gcnew strictly for interfacing C++ with .NET, like
C++/CLI?

Re: MS extend C++ significantly for Windows8... and Andrei got name drop

2012-01-25 Thread Brad Anderson

On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 3:53 PM, Manu turkey...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 26 January 2012 00:48, Paulo Pinto pj...@progtools.org wrote:

 Am 25.01.2012 23:35, schrieb Manu:

 On 26 January 2012 00:02, Brad Anderson e...@gnuk.net

 mailto:e...@gnuk.net wrote:

On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 2:38 PM, Manu turkey...@gmail.com
mailto:turkey...@gmail.com wrote:

On 25 January 2012 23:33, Trass3r u...@known.com
mailto:u...@known.com wrote:

This is fairly interesting. MS have extended their C++
compiler
significantly for Windows8 with a bunch of non-standard
stuff.


Yeah, while refusing to implement most of C++11.


Good! The C++11 committee should be shot. They've got it
completely wrong, and MS have it right for my money! :)
I don't want MORE STL, I want less :)


Herb Sutter (the man speaking in your video) is chairman of the C++
standards committee so it's kind of amusing that the stuff you
praise and the stuff you say is wrong are both led by the same man.
Also, he and Andrei wrote a book together (C++ Coding Standards) so
the name drop isn't entirely unexpected.  They do the C++ and Beyond
conference together (with Scott Meyers).  A large portion of the
questions from the attendees I saw in the Channel 9 videos were about
 D.


 Haha really? Amazing, but he works for Microsoft then I guess? So why is
 he fixing C++ for MS, but won't fix the C++ standard its self?
 std::function for instance, why add that if he turns around and adds a
 proper keyword for MS?


 Because he is just one person in the standards process. That is how
 standards work.

 Each person (or company) just gets one vote.


 Yeah, well the chairman should have veto rights, and then do it right,
 like they did at MS :P


The chairman in ISO committees is more of an organizer and planner.  The
process itself is very democratic.  The final vote is done by member
countries and the standard becomes an international treaty.

As for why he didn't fix things, in addition to the fact that the committee
probably disagrees with some of the stuff you would call broken, the C++0x
(heh) standard was already taking way, way too long.  They had to cut the
largest addition out (concepts) because the standard would have taken years
longer to realize had they tried to keep it.  I believe they've taken steps
to make sure the next standard happens in a more timely fashion.

Regards,
Brad Anderson

Re: MS extend C++ significantly for Windows8... and Andrei got name drop