Re: D and open development model

2009-10-15 Thread Leandro Lucarella
Bill Baxter, el 15 de octubre a las 15:51 me escribiste:
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 3:01 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu
>  wrote:
> > Leandro Lucarella wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi, I'm sorry to spam here with self references, but I don't know if
> >> Walter and other D developers read Planet D, and I really appreciate if
> >> they could read this blog post:
> >>
> >> D and open development model: http://llucax.com.ar/blog/blog/post/6cac01e1
> >>
> >> This tries to be a constructive criticism and a recognition to the
> >> advances made in the last year(s?). I was about to write it directly to
> >> the D group but I thought it could hit a more wider audience as a blog
> >> post, and it could attract some people that had left D because of its
> >> closeness.
> >>
> >> I hope you find it useful.
> >
> > Nice! Mea culpa for the all-too-brief release notes. Now that I know people
> > are looking, I'll beef them up.
> >
> > One thing - "D2 should be release fairly soon because Andrei is writing a
> > book that has a deadline and the language has to be finalized by the time
> > the book is published." Well that's not quite it happened historically. The
> > impinging release of D2 was conceived to occur concurrently with, not
> > determined by, the book. If I could, I'd probably choose to not have a
> > deadline either but that's not how book publishing works.
> >
> > As far as commit notification goes, no later than yesterday I asked Brad
> > Anderson about automated emails. He said he's a bit strapped for time, but
> > will arrange soon such that Phobos commits are emailed to an address on my
> > server. I'll create a mailing list open to anyone interested.
> >
> > Thanks for a nice article.
> 
> It wasn't mentioned, so I'm not sure if everyone is aware that the
> commits have been available by RSS feed from Dsource ever since Phobos
> and DMD appeared there.  (In fact there's a feed for all projects on
> dsource).

You're right, I forgot to mention the RSS. I'm subscribed to it, that's
how I peek at the commits now. But the (current) RSS is far from ideal
because the patch is not part of the RSS article body, so I have to click
on each and every commit to see the actual patch. And RSS is one way only,
so you can't give feedback.

But the new mailing list will change that, fortunately :)

-- 
Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca) http://llucax.com.ar/
--
GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145  104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05)
--
MATAN AL PERRO: DICEN QUE ESTABA POSEIDO POR EL DEMONIO...
-- Crónica TV


Re: D and open development model

2009-10-15 Thread Leandro Lucarella
Andrei Alexandrescu, el 15 de octubre a las 17:01 me escribiste:
> Leandro Lucarella wrote:
> >Hi, I'm sorry to spam here with self references, but I don't know if
> >Walter and other D developers read Planet D, and I really appreciate if
> >they could read this blog post:
> >
> >D and open development model: http://llucax.com.ar/blog/blog/post/6cac01e1
> >
> >This tries to be a constructive criticism and a recognition to the
> >advances made in the last year(s?). I was about to write it directly to
> >the D group but I thought it could hit a more wider audience as a blog
> >post, and it could attract some people that had left D because of its
> >closeness.
> >
> >I hope you find it useful.
> 
> Nice! Mea culpa for the all-too-brief release notes. Now that I know
> people are looking, I'll beef them up.

Thanks =)

Mea culpa for waiting too long to ask for it ;)

> One thing - "D2 should be release fairly soon because Andrei is
> writing a book that has a deadline and the language has to be
> finalized by the time the book is published." Well that's not quite
> it happened historically. The impinging release of D2 was conceived
> to occur concurrently with, not determined by, the book. If I could,
> I'd probably choose to not have a deadline either but that's not how
> book publishing works.

I know, I was just trying to inform people not involved in D how things
are now. I understand the book situation and I know is a tricky one,
because having a book is another *huge* step to let D hit mainstream. So
I agree is a compromise one have to make.

> As far as commit notification goes, no later than yesterday I asked
> Brad Anderson about automated emails. He said he's a bit strapped
> for time, but will arrange soon such that Phobos commits are emailed
> to an address on my server. I'll create a mailing list open to
> anyone interested.

That's very nice to hear! Thanks.

> Thanks for a nice article.

No problem, it's good to know that it was appreciated.

-- 
Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca) http://llucax.com.ar/
--
GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145  104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05)
--
Señor, usted es militar? - No, no.
Tiene un hermano militar? - No, no, no.
Tiene algún pariente militar? - No, no, no, no.
Tiene algún amigo íntimo militar? - No, no, pero por qué me lo pregunta?
Porque me está pisando el pie.
-- Tato vs. Tato (1980, Gobierno de Videla)


Re: D and open development model

2009-10-15 Thread Leandro Lucarella
bearophile, el 15 de octubre a las 17:49 me escribiste:
> Leandro Lucarella:
> 
> > I hope you find it useful.
> 
> Wonderful, baby steps lead you to many places :-)
> Thank you for that post. Isn't GIT better for CVS?

Of course. Maybe you mistaken DVCS (Distributed Version Control System)
with CVS? I didn't mentioned CVS at all (it's ancient and I wouldn't
recommend it at all).

-- 
Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca) http://llucax.com.ar/
--
GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145  104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05)
--
More than 50% of the people in the world have never made
Or received a telephone call


Re: D and open development model

2009-10-15 Thread Bill Baxter
On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 3:01 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu
 wrote:
> Leandro Lucarella wrote:
>>
>> Hi, I'm sorry to spam here with self references, but I don't know if
>> Walter and other D developers read Planet D, and I really appreciate if
>> they could read this blog post:
>>
>> D and open development model: http://llucax.com.ar/blog/blog/post/6cac01e1
>>
>> This tries to be a constructive criticism and a recognition to the
>> advances made in the last year(s?). I was about to write it directly to
>> the D group but I thought it could hit a more wider audience as a blog
>> post, and it could attract some people that had left D because of its
>> closeness.
>>
>> I hope you find it useful.
>
> Nice! Mea culpa for the all-too-brief release notes. Now that I know people
> are looking, I'll beef them up.
>
> One thing - "D2 should be release fairly soon because Andrei is writing a
> book that has a deadline and the language has to be finalized by the time
> the book is published." Well that's not quite it happened historically. The
> impinging release of D2 was conceived to occur concurrently with, not
> determined by, the book. If I could, I'd probably choose to not have a
> deadline either but that's not how book publishing works.
>
> As far as commit notification goes, no later than yesterday I asked Brad
> Anderson about automated emails. He said he's a bit strapped for time, but
> will arrange soon such that Phobos commits are emailed to an address on my
> server. I'll create a mailing list open to anyone interested.
>
> Thanks for a nice article.

It wasn't mentioned, so I'm not sure if everyone is aware that the
commits have been available by RSS feed from Dsource ever since Phobos
and DMD appeared there.  (In fact there's a feed for all projects on
dsource).

--bb


Re: dmd 1.050 and 2.035 release

2009-10-15 Thread Ary Borenszweig

Michael P. wrote:

Walter Bright Wrote:


bearophile wrote:

Walter Bright:

Using DMD 2.035 I have tried to compile:

void main() {}

Using:

dmd -X temp.d

And the compiler crashes.

Sorry, that happens if the source file doesn't have a module statement.


Maybe there should be an error then?


I think he says it's a bug, he forgot a module declaration can be null. :)


Re: dmd 1.050 and 2.035 release

2009-10-15 Thread Michael P.
Walter Bright Wrote:

> bearophile wrote:
> > Walter Bright:
> > 
> > Using DMD 2.035 I have tried to compile:
> > 
> > void main() {}
> > 
> > Using:
> > 
> > dmd -X temp.d
> > 
> > And the compiler crashes.
> 
> Sorry, that happens if the source file doesn't have a module statement.

Maybe there should be an error then?


Re: D and open development model

2009-10-15 Thread Andrei Alexandrescu

Leandro Lucarella wrote:

Hi, I'm sorry to spam here with self references, but I don't know if
Walter and other D developers read Planet D, and I really appreciate if
they could read this blog post:

D and open development model: http://llucax.com.ar/blog/blog/post/6cac01e1

This tries to be a constructive criticism and a recognition to the
advances made in the last year(s?). I was about to write it directly to
the D group but I thought it could hit a more wider audience as a blog
post, and it could attract some people that had left D because of its
closeness.

I hope you find it useful.


Nice! Mea culpa for the all-too-brief release notes. Now that I know 
people are looking, I'll beef them up.


One thing - "D2 should be release fairly soon because Andrei is writing 
a book that has a deadline and the language has to be finalized by the 
time the book is published." Well that's not quite it happened 
historically. The impinging release of D2 was conceived to occur 
concurrently with, not determined by, the book. If I could, I'd probably 
choose to not have a deadline either but that's not how book publishing 
works.


As far as commit notification goes, no later than yesterday I asked Brad 
Anderson about automated emails. He said he's a bit strapped for time, 
but will arrange soon such that Phobos commits are emailed to an address 
on my server. I'll create a mailing list open to anyone interested.


Thanks for a nice article.


Andrei


Re: D and open development model

2009-10-15 Thread bearophile
Leandro Lucarella:

> I hope you find it useful.

Wonderful, baby steps lead you to many places :-)
Thank you for that post. Isn't GIT better for CVS?

Bye,
bearophile


D and open development model

2009-10-15 Thread Leandro Lucarella
Hi, I'm sorry to spam here with self references, but I don't know if
Walter and other D developers read Planet D, and I really appreciate if
they could read this blog post:

D and open development model: http://llucax.com.ar/blog/blog/post/6cac01e1

This tries to be a constructive criticism and a recognition to the
advances made in the last year(s?). I was about to write it directly to
the D group but I thought it could hit a more wider audience as a blog
post, and it could attract some people that had left D because of its
closeness.

I hope you find it useful.

-- 
Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca) http://llucax.com.ar/
--
GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145  104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05)
--
The difference is simple: hackers build things, crackers break them.


Re: dmd 1.050 and 2.035 release

2009-10-15 Thread Ellery Newcomer
Walter Bright wrote:
> Bugzilla 1534: Can't mix in a case statement.

Woo hoo!


Re: dmd 1.050 and 2.035 release

2009-10-15 Thread Moritz Warning
On Wed, 14 Oct 2009 20:46:25 -0700, Walter Bright wrote:

> The main purpose of this is to correct a couple of regressions that were
> blocking QtD and Tango.
> 
> http://www.digitalmars.com/d/1.0/changelog.html
> http://ftp.digitalmars.com/dmd.1.050.zip
> 
> 
> http://www.digitalmars.com/d/2.0/changelog.html
> http://ftp.digitalmars.com/dmd.2.035.zip
> 
> Many thanks to the numerous people who contributed to this update.

Hi Walter,

Thanks for the commits to svn for us to testing!
But the release came in a bit of a hurry.
I reported two more regressions, thought there weren't marked as those
because, well, I forgot to check all options.


Re: dmd 1.050 and 2.035 release

2009-10-15 Thread digited
Walter Bright Wrote:

> digited wrote:
> > So you don't mind that Tango is still uncompilable with 1.050 because of 
> > hurrying,
> 
> I didn't know that. The bugzilla number which was posted as the reason 
> it wouldn't compile was fixed.

I don't try to accuse you on anything, just ask to give the users some time to 
test a release candidate - that will show existing blockers better than posting 
& scanning bugzilla before sudden release, devs will fix their bugs and you'll 
get a feedback for fixes, and there (i hope) won't be critical problems in 
compiling existing projects after release.

If you are already sending rc's to Tango devs, you simply can make them public 
and make an SVN branch with their code.


Re: dmd 1.050 and 2.035 release

2009-10-15 Thread Walter Bright

Ary Borenszweig wrote:

Should I create an enhancement for this?


Might as well.


Re: dmd 1.050 and 2.035 release

2009-10-15 Thread Walter Bright

digited wrote:

So you don't mind that Tango is still uncompilable with 1.050 because of 
hurrying,


I didn't know that. The bugzilla number which was posted as the reason 
it wouldn't compile was fixed.


Re: dmd 1.050 and 2.035 release

2009-10-15 Thread Ary Borenszweig

Walter Bright wrote:
The main purpose of this is to correct a couple of regressions that were 
blocking QtD and Tango.


http://www.digitalmars.com/d/1.0/changelog.html
http://ftp.digitalmars.com/dmd.1.050.zip


http://www.digitalmars.com/d/2.0/changelog.html
http://ftp.digitalmars.com/dmd.2.035.zip

Many thanks to the numerous people who contributed to this update.


The json output looks cool. :)

But for this:

---
module main;
alias int myInt;
myInt x;
---

I get:

---
{
"name" : "main",
"kind" : "module",
"file" : "main.d",
"members" : [
{
"name" : "myInt",
"kind" : "alias",
"type" : "int",
"line" : 5}
,{
"name" : "x",
"kind" : "variable",
"type" : "int",
"line" : 7}
]
}
---

So you see, variable's type is "int", not "myInt". I knew this was going 
to happen because the way dmd is implemented and how it fogets about 
aliases of types (it just resolves them and forgets about the original 
alias name). I had some head-aches remembering those things in Descent. :-P


Think of binding libraries like OpenGL, DirectX, even the windows API 
where all functions receive and return aliases. If an IDE shows the 
resolved aliases it's no use to the user, that's what aliases are for.


Should I create an enhancement for this?


Re: dmd 1.050 and 2.035 release

2009-10-15 Thread digited
zsxxsz Wrote:

> I don't think so. If there are some important bugs fixed, the new release is
> necessary without caring about the release date. With dmd.2.034, I don't event
> compile druntime.

So you don't mind that Tango is still uncompilable with 1.050 because of 
hurrying, for third release in a row?
There must be an easy compiling of DMD from source, and you can get your own 
version from SVN trunk with a fresh bugfix you need.

But a release must generally be stable and should not break the code of main D 
projects (or give them time to change the projects' code and fix DMD bugs), 
there's a point in nighly builds, but not weekly releases that keep breaking 
the code.


Re: dmd 1.050 and 2.035 release

2009-10-15 Thread Don

Eldar Insafutdinov wrote:

digited Wrote:


Walter Bright Wrote:

The main purpose of this is to correct a couple of regressions that were 
blocking QtD and Tango.


http://www.digitalmars.com/d/1.0/changelog.html
http://ftp.digitalmars.com/dmd.1.050.zip


http://www.digitalmars.com/d/2.0/changelog.html
http://ftp.digitalmars.com/dmd.2.035.zip

Many thanks to the numerous people who contributed to this update.

Thank you for this release, and thank you for small commits to SVN!

The only thing that is missing from a good release procedure is 
_release_candidates_. Please, Walter, do not hurry with releases! With DMD in 
SVN, it will be totally ok to do releases by one in 1-2 months, the main 
problem is that the developers don't have any time to actually test the new 
release. The bugs are found, but it's too late and they need to wait for new 
release, with new _features_ and thus, with _sudded_ release, new bugs and 
breaking changes (even in D1, yes).

You can totally eliminate this kind of problems with posting not a "Here's a new 
complete release! Now you can test it, but you won't get any fixes until next one", 
but a _release_candidate_, make an SVN branch for it and let developers (of QtD, Tango 
and lots of other projects) to test the candidate and report bugs to you. Be sure, after 
a week of testing, while you can work on next release and new features in trunk, the 
release branch will really become ready for a _stable_ release, when noone will have to 
complain about blocker bugs.

Please, Walter, do not hurry with releases, make release candidates and wait 
for bug reports, apply fixes to the release branch and then make a really good 
release, no matter not so often!

Thank you.


Yeah I totally agree here. This release was intended to fix Tango, but there 
are 2 more regressions that are not fixed:

http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=3397
http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=3401
PLEASE, when these things are reported, mark them as severity = 
"regression". Even reading the bug report there's no indication that 
they are regressions. Saying "it is a blocker for Tango" is NOT the same.


Re: dmd 1.050 and 2.035 release

2009-10-15 Thread zsxxsz
== Quote from digited (digi...@yandex.ru)'s article
> Walter Bright Wrote:
> > The main purpose of this is to correct a couple of regressions that were
> > blocking QtD and Tango.
> >
> > http://www.digitalmars.com/d/1.0/changelog.html
> > http://ftp.digitalmars.com/dmd.1.050.zip
> >
> >
> > http://www.digitalmars.com/d/2.0/changelog.html
> > http://ftp.digitalmars.com/dmd.2.035.zip
> >
> > Many thanks to the numerous people who contributed to this update.
> Thank you for this release, and thank you for small commits to SVN!
> The only thing that is missing from a good release procedure is
_release_candidates_. Please, Walter, do not hurry with releases! With DMD in 
SVN,
it will be totally ok to do releases by one in 1-2 months, the main problem is
that the developers don't have any time to actually test the new release. The 
bugs
are found, but it's too late and they need to wait for new release, with new
_features_ and thus, with _sudded_ release, new bugs and breaking changes (even 
in
D1, yes).
> You can totally eliminate this kind of problems with posting not a "Here's a 
> new
complete release! Now you can test it, but you won't get any fixes until next
one", but a _release_candidate_, make an SVN branch for it and let developers 
(of
QtD, Tango and lots of other projects) to test the candidate and report bugs to
you. Be sure, after a week of testing, while you can work on next release and 
new
features in trunk, the release branch will really become ready for a _stable_
release, when noone will have to complain about blocker bugs.
> Please, Walter, do not hurry with releases, make release candidates and wait 
> for
bug reports, apply fixes to the release branch and then make a really good
release, no matter not so often!
> Thank you.

I don't think so. If there are some important bugs fixed, the new release is
necessary without caring about the release date. With dmd.2.034, I don't event
compile druntime.


Re: dmd 1.050 and 2.035 release

2009-10-15 Thread Eldar Insafutdinov
digited Wrote:

> Walter Bright Wrote:
> 
> > The main purpose of this is to correct a couple of regressions that were 
> > blocking QtD and Tango.
> > 
> > http://www.digitalmars.com/d/1.0/changelog.html
> > http://ftp.digitalmars.com/dmd.1.050.zip
> > 
> > 
> > http://www.digitalmars.com/d/2.0/changelog.html
> > http://ftp.digitalmars.com/dmd.2.035.zip
> > 
> > Many thanks to the numerous people who contributed to this update.
> 
> Thank you for this release, and thank you for small commits to SVN!
> 
> The only thing that is missing from a good release procedure is 
> _release_candidates_. Please, Walter, do not hurry with releases! With DMD in 
> SVN, it will be totally ok to do releases by one in 1-2 months, the main 
> problem is that the developers don't have any time to actually test the new 
> release. The bugs are found, but it's too late and they need to wait for new 
> release, with new _features_ and thus, with _sudded_ release, new bugs and 
> breaking changes (even in D1, yes).
> 
> You can totally eliminate this kind of problems with posting not a "Here's a 
> new complete release! Now you can test it, but you won't get any fixes until 
> next one", but a _release_candidate_, make an SVN branch for it and let 
> developers (of QtD, Tango and lots of other projects) to test the candidate 
> and report bugs to you. Be sure, after a week of testing, while you can work 
> on next release and new features in trunk, the release branch will really 
> become ready for a _stable_ release, when noone will have to complain about 
> blocker bugs.
> 
> Please, Walter, do not hurry with releases, make release candidates and wait 
> for bug reports, apply fixes to the release branch and then make a really 
> good release, no matter not so often!
> 
> Thank you.

Yeah I totally agree here. This release was intended to fix Tango, but there 
are 2 more regressions that are not fixed:

http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=3397
http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=3401


Re: dmd 1.050 and 2.035 release

2009-10-15 Thread digited
Walter Bright Wrote:

> The main purpose of this is to correct a couple of regressions that were 
> blocking QtD and Tango.
> 
> http://www.digitalmars.com/d/1.0/changelog.html
> http://ftp.digitalmars.com/dmd.1.050.zip
> 
> 
> http://www.digitalmars.com/d/2.0/changelog.html
> http://ftp.digitalmars.com/dmd.2.035.zip
> 
> Many thanks to the numerous people who contributed to this update.

Thank you for this release, and thank you for small commits to SVN!

The only thing that is missing from a good release procedure is 
_release_candidates_. Please, Walter, do not hurry with releases! With DMD in 
SVN, it will be totally ok to do releases by one in 1-2 months, the main 
problem is that the developers don't have any time to actually test the new 
release. The bugs are found, but it's too late and they need to wait for new 
release, with new _features_ and thus, with _sudded_ release, new bugs and 
breaking changes (even in D1, yes).

You can totally eliminate this kind of problems with posting not a "Here's a 
new complete release! Now you can test it, but you won't get any fixes until 
next one", but a _release_candidate_, make an SVN branch for it and let 
developers (of QtD, Tango and lots of other projects) to test the candidate and 
report bugs to you. Be sure, after a week of testing, while you can work on 
next release and new features in trunk, the release branch will really become 
ready for a _stable_ release, when noone will have to complain about blocker 
bugs.

Please, Walter, do not hurry with releases, make release candidates and wait 
for bug reports, apply fixes to the release branch and then make a really good 
release, no matter not so often!

Thank you.


Re: dmd 1.050 and 2.035 release

2009-10-15 Thread MIURA Masahiro
MIURA Masahiro wrote:
> I have built QtD r304 (latest) with DMD
> 2.050,

Of course that's 2.035.  I'm screwed by rapid releases :-)
(I do welcome rapid releases, though)