Re: SHOO's Time code -- conclusion
I accept Shoos implementation only with the conditions 1) No multiplication, division and remainder operations are allowed. Tango used these operations for date calculation in an original way. All similar uses are forbidden. 2) Also it is not allowed to implement routines for operations at (1). That would be obviously a thinly veiled attempt at stealing Tango code. 3) No use of the words date, time, and calendar are allowed in the code or the documentation. These words were used creatively by Tango. They cannot be stolen. I am sure these requirements are reasonable invalid email-address = useless content
SHOO's Time code -- conclusion
I want to first qualify that I represent only myself, nobody from Phobos, nobody from Tango, not Walter nor Andrei nor Kris nor Lars nor SHOO nor anyone but me. Please see this message: http://lists.puremagic.com/pipermail/phobos/2010-June/000783.html Quoted here completely for convenience: Walter Bright wrote: Although I do not believe that SHOO's work on the date/time is legally infringing on Tango's time code, I feel there's been enough bad feeling about this and that we should not include Tango's time api design in Phobos. I apologize to SHOO for this. I know this is unfair to him. Andrei has given a start to std.gregorian, perhaps SHOO's implementation work can be transferred to this to help complete it? -- So I want to re-stress some points I have made in the past, and respond to some statements that have been made by others. First, let's recap what happened. According to SHOO, he was a user of Tango's time library, and used the online documentation of Tango, and the existing implementation of Phobos to write a new Phobos-ified time library that was similar to Tango's api. Having been one of the main authors of Tango's time package, I examined SHOO's implementation side-by-side with Tango's, I can say that I believe him. IMO, it's not the same code or even derived, it just has a similar feel. Someone from Tango was alerted to this, and considered it to be infringing to the point where he/she called Walter and told him so. Walter, as someone who wants nothing to do with controversy and possible legal issues, refused to accept the code based on this accusation. Note: I was not a part of this call, so I do not know what was said exactly in it, these are my interpretations of the posts on the newsgroup. Lars of Tango wrote a message to the Phobos mailing list indicating that in his opinion, claiming a clean room implementation of an API in D is difficult, if for no other reason that it is (due to imperfect doc generation etc) somewhat difficult to properly study a D API without at the same time reading the source (or glimpsing at it). Even if you have good intentions, as I'm sure Shoo had, it is important to know this, there may be less forgiving actors out there. You can read the entire message here: http://lists.puremagic.com/pipermail/phobos/2010-April/000370.html Coupled with the phone call asking Walter to block the code, at this point, we could just say that Tango was being careful. But under the circumstances, it appears to me that Tango is under the impression that simply admitting one has used Tango, combined with having made a library inspired by Tango's API, is enough to warrant an accusation of infringement. I don't even know if anyone from Tango examined the code or not. Thus ensued a large discussion (to phrase it politely) in which several good ideas for resolving the problem came to light. Some of them focused on getting a boost license for Tango's time code. It was revealed that one of the authors, John Chapman, was not reachable by the Tango team, and so it would take some time to get John's permission. After a few days, I took it upon myself to seek out John and get his input. He responded to me positively, and indicated he would alert the Tango team. If we count the four authors listed in the Tango code (I'm somewhat convinced that a 5th author does not exist), that meant that both John and I had agreed to license the time code under the boost license for Phobos. This left two authors. Out of respect for Tango's ownership of the situation, I let it sit for over a week, expecting at any time that someone from Tango would contact Walter with good news. Having heard nothing, I decided to push the matter a little further and post to the newsgroup my success with John. An indication from Moritz Warning, a Tango user, was that he had spoken with the remaining two authors: I have asked Kris Bell and Matti Niemenmaa. No Problem at all. This left the infamous 2nd gunma... I mean 5th author. After requests for who this person was on the newsgroup, I got nothing. Almost two weeks later, I decided to give up temporarily on the 5th author, if the other two were OK with it, I could get more leverage to finding out who that 5th person was. I just wanted to make sure I had a direct statement from both those authors, as hearsay isn't very good evidence. After posing the question to Moritz, Matti Niemenmaa posted his approval of the license change on the newsgroup. (A sincere thank you for that!) Which leads us to Kris. Apparently, Kris has no comment. Having no comment in this issue is equivalent to saying no without sounding like you are saying no. Because a unanimous 'yes' vote is required to change things, abstaining means things will stay the way they are. That's an interesting way to go... So to answer some questions/comments
Re: SHOO's Time code -- conclusion
== Quote from Steven Schveighoffer (schvei...@yahoo.com)'s article I want to first qualify that I represent only myself, nobody from Phobos, nobody from Tango, not Walter nor Andrei nor Kris nor Lars nor SHOO nor anyone but me. Please see this message: http://lists.puremagic.com/pipermail/phobos/2010-June/000783.html Quoted here completely for convenience: Walter Bright wrote: Although I do not believe that SHOO's work on the date/time is legally infringing on Tango's time code, I feel there's been enough bad feeling about this and that we should not include Tango's time api design in Phobos. I apologize to SHOO for this. I know this is unfair to him. Andrei has given a start to std.gregorian, perhaps SHOO's implementation work can be transferred to this to help complete it? -- So I want to re-stress some points I have made in the past, and respond to some statements that have been made by others. First, let's recap what happened. According to SHOO, he was a user of Tango's time library, and used the online documentation of Tango, and the existing implementation of Phobos to write a new Phobos-ified time library that was similar to Tango's api. Having been one of the main authors of Tango's time package, I examined SHOO's implementation side-by-side with Tango's, I can say that I believe him. IMO, it's not the same code or even derived, it just has a similar feel. Someone from Tango was alerted to this, and considered it to be infringing to the point where he/she called Walter and told him so. Walter, as someone who wants nothing to do with controversy and possible legal issues, refused to accept the code based on this accusation. Note: I was not a part of this call, so I do not know what was said exactly in it, these are my interpretations of the posts on the newsgroup. Lars of Tango wrote a message to the Phobos mailing list indicating that in his opinion, claiming a clean room implementation of an API in D is difficult, if for no other reason that it is (due to imperfect doc generation etc) somewhat difficult to properly study a D API without at the same time reading the source (or glimpsing at it). Even if you have good intentions, as I'm sure Shoo had, it is important to know this, there may be less forgiving actors out there. You can read the entire message here: http://lists.puremagic.com/pipermail/phobos/2010-April/000370.html Coupled with the phone call asking Walter to block the code, at this point, we could just say that Tango was being careful. But under the circumstances, it appears to me that Tango is under the impression that simply admitting one has used Tango, combined with having made a library inspired by Tango's API, is enough to warrant an accusation of infringement. I don't even know if anyone from Tango examined the code or not. Thus ensued a large discussion (to phrase it politely) in which several good ideas for resolving the problem came to light. Some of them focused on getting a boost license for Tango's time code. It was revealed that one of the authors, John Chapman, was not reachable by the Tango team, and so it would take some time to get John's permission. After a few days, I took it upon myself to seek out John and get his input. He responded to me positively, and indicated he would alert the Tango team. If we count the four authors listed in the Tango code (I'm somewhat convinced that a 5th author does not exist), that meant that both John and I had agreed to license the time code under the boost license for Phobos. This left two authors. Out of respect for Tango's ownership of the situation, I let it sit for over a week, expecting at any time that someone from Tango would contact Walter with good news. Having heard nothing, I decided to push the matter a little further and post to the newsgroup my success with John. An indication from Moritz Warning, a Tango user, was that he had spoken with the remaining two authors: I have asked Kris Bell and Matti Niemenmaa. No Problem at all. This left the infamous 2nd gunma... I mean 5th author. After requests for who this person was on the newsgroup, I got nothing. Almost two weeks later, I decided to give up temporarily on the 5th author, if the other two were OK with it, I could get more leverage to finding out who that 5th person was. I just wanted to make sure I had a direct statement from both those authors, as hearsay isn't very good evidence. After posing the question to Moritz, Matti Niemenmaa posted his approval of the license change on the newsgroup. (A sincere thank you for that!) Which leads us to Kris. Apparently, Kris has no comment. Having no comment in this issue is equivalent to saying no without sounding like you are saying no. Because a unanimous 'yes' vote is required to change things, abstaining means things will stay the way they are. That's an interesting way to go... So to answer some questions/comments
Re: SHOO's Time code -- conclusion
Steven Schveighoffer Wrote: So to answer some questions/comments stated a few months ago: have you thought about just asking the authors of the Tango code in question? No, I hadn't, but I did. Kris says no (comment). What's the problem? If you can't use his code, write your own. Stop complaining. It's unproductive. I would imagine they would say that they only see a minor resemblance in the api and asking wouldn't even be necessary from their point of view. I guess your imagination was incorrect. I don't know why, but Kris does not want a non-infringing reimplementation of Tango's time code in Phobos. Why should he? He has invested much time on Tango and Tango was much better. Phobos was rebuild from scratch because of serious NIH syndrome by some weirdos. You're enforcing your stupid 'better than thou' attitude with the crap Boost license. The real work was already done. Your only contribution will be to spread the stupid intellectual property propaganda (attribution clause FUD). You can't beat the old work technically. Even if you have good intentions, as I'm sure Shoo had, it is important to know this, there may be less forgiving actors out there. I guess I found one. Yes you did. P.S., I will not respond to this thread except to make any clarifications/corrections. I've said my share. Good.
Re: SHOO's Time code -- conclusion
Steven Schveighoffer wrote: To reiterate what someone else said, to me Tango is poison. It appears to me from SHOO's story that just *using* Tango is poison. I feel like all the contributions I have made (and the other two authors have made) are being held hostage for no good reason (I still don't know why). I stand by my decision to leave that project, and I hope this story has at least given you an idea of why. I also extend Tango an invitation to use any of my code from Phobos, druntime, or dcollections and relicense it under their license. I have no problem with people using my code, as long as I can also use it as I see fit. -Steve P.S., I will not respond to this thread except to make any clarifications/corrections. I've said my share. Thank you very much for the detailed summary and all of your contributions to the D community. Ali P.S. For the record, I have never used, installed, or looked at Tango code. Once, I did follow a link to their online documentation which had been pointed out to be very good and useful. I had agreed.
Re: SHOO's Time code -- conclusion
On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 15:10:31 +, kretinis wrote: == Quote from Steven Schveighoffer (schvei...@yahoo.com)'s article [..] I accept Shoos implementation only with the conditions [..] I am sure these requirements are reasonable Your arguments are futile, explanation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K83gqiRd2XI
Re: SHOO's Time code -- conclusion
On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 10:33:13 -0400, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: I want to first qualify that I represent only myself, nobody from Phobos, nobody from Tango, not Walter nor Andrei nor Kris nor Lars nor SHOO nor anyone but me. [..] I also extend Tango an invitation to use any of my code from Phobos, druntime, or dcollections and relicense it under their license. I have no problem with people using my code, as long as I can also use it as I see fit. thx! I understand your sentiments. As for me, Tango doesn't look harmful and I contribute small stuff here and there (as many other ppl do). It's helpful to focus community efforts. (Phobos got better in this regards lately) As for this unfortunate issue, it's time to move on.
Re: SHOO's Time code -- conclusion
kretinis wrote: I accept Shoos implementation only with the conditions 1) No multiplication, division and remainder operations are allowed. Tango used these operations for date calculation in an original way. All similar uses are forbidden. 2) Also it is not allowed to implement routines for operations at (1). That would be obviously a thinly veiled attempt at stealing Tango code. 3) No use of the words date, time, and calendar are allowed in the code or the documentation. These words were used creatively by Tango. They cannot be stolen. I am sure these requirements are reasonable LOL. I've never used Tango, so I don't know how its time/date code does things, let alone if there's anything original about it. But requiring date or time code to not use the words date, time, or calendar? That's like saying that code which uses an int can't use the word integer or number. It's just plain silly. I sincerely hope that you're not being serious. Honestly, I don't see any problem with copying APIs as long as they're solid, and you don't look at the actual code. However, it does seem that in this case, at least, it's best to just do something different with phobos and avoid conflict on the matter. There are plenty of different useful ways which date and time code can be done, and basing it on a pre-existing, major library such as boost (which is what Andrei is doing IIRC) seems to me to be a reasonable solution. - Jonathan M Davis
Re: SHOO's time code
On Wed, 19 May 2010 06:45:42 -0400, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: On Tue, 18 May 2010 14:10:05 -0400, Moritz Warning moritzwarn...@web.de wrote: On Tue, 18 May 2010 14:24:40 +, superdan wrote: == Quote from Steven Schveighoffer (schvei...@yahoo.com)'s article On Tue, 18 May 2010 09:39:12 -0400, superdan su...@dan.org wrote: guys go with boost and std.gregorian n shit. sorry shoo. tango is a fucking boat anchor for d. shit. Having written most of the API for tango.time, I sorta like it :) I really like the API that SHOO came up with based on it. If there's any way to get SHOO's code into Phobos, I want to pursue that first. If this fails, we can go with boost. -Steve i feel ya bro. i once sorta liked a hoe with herpes. way i c it is simple. it's fucking dates and fucking times. wut the fuck. ain't a fucking operating system. no matter how u dress a pig u still call it a fucking pig. if u have da datetime functionality it don't matter to be cute. we is wasting time sucking lars douche's cock 2 give us permission 2 his fucking shit. fuck that shit. dis must be da least amount of power that got to some idiot's head. Wut? Person A wrote some code and had a look at code from person B. Now person C says that A need to get permission from B so that C can use the code from A. The reason is because the license of the code written by B isn't quite compatible with the license recently chosen by C. And now you are calling B an idiot/douche for that reason? Let's make it a bit clearer. Person A *used* the code from person B, and used the *documentation* of said code to write his own similar library. Person A has not claimed that he looked at the source. I agree, that's more accurate. Person B claims that it is impossible to do so without actually looking at the source, but has not yet cited any specific copying. Person C doesn't want any trouble, and just is being extra careful. Afaik, Person B haven't looked at the source in question but relied on what others said. I think it was a move forward in anticipation to Person Cs license sensibility. Anyway, Person B haven't hesitated when asked to give permission himself. I don't really like the situation, but if this is the way it has to be, then let's get it done and move on. right :) -Steve
Re: SHOO's time code
On 2010-05-14 00:52, Moritz Warning wrote: I have asked Kris Bell and Matti Niemenmaa. No Problem at all. Since this evidently needs confirming: I'm fine with relicensing any of my contributions to the tango.time modules under the Boost Software License, Version 1.0. -- E-mail address: matti.niemenmaa+news, domain is iki (DOT) fi
Re: SHOO's time code
On Tue, 18 May 2010 14:10:05 -0400, Moritz Warning moritzwarn...@web.de wrote: On Tue, 18 May 2010 14:24:40 +, superdan wrote: == Quote from Steven Schveighoffer (schvei...@yahoo.com)'s article On Tue, 18 May 2010 09:39:12 -0400, superdan su...@dan.org wrote: guys go with boost and std.gregorian n shit. sorry shoo. tango is a fucking boat anchor for d. shit. Having written most of the API for tango.time, I sorta like it :) I really like the API that SHOO came up with based on it. If there's any way to get SHOO's code into Phobos, I want to pursue that first. If this fails, we can go with boost. -Steve i feel ya bro. i once sorta liked a hoe with herpes. way i c it is simple. it's fucking dates and fucking times. wut the fuck. ain't a fucking operating system. no matter how u dress a pig u still call it a fucking pig. if u have da datetime functionality it don't matter to be cute. we is wasting time sucking lars douche's cock 2 give us permission 2 his fucking shit. fuck that shit. dis must be da least amount of power that got to some idiot's head. Wut? Person A wrote some code and had a look at code from person B. Now person C says that A need to get permission from B so that C can use the code from A. The reason is because the license of the code written by B isn't quite compatible with the license recently chosen by C. And now you are calling B an idiot/douche for that reason? Let's make it a bit clearer. Person A *used* the code from person B, and used the *documentation* of said code to write his own similar library. Person A has not claimed that he looked at the source. Person B claims that it is impossible to do so without actually looking at the source, but has not yet cited any specific copying. Person C doesn't want any trouble, and just is being extra careful. I don't really like the situation, but if this is the way it has to be, then let's get it done and move on. -Steve
Re: SHOO's time code
On Tue, 18 May 2010 03:21:25 +, superdan wrote: == Quote from Moritz Warning (moritzwarn...@web.de)'s article On Thu, 13 May 2010 16:45:45 -0400, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 09:55:51 -0400, Moritz Warning moritzwarn...@web.de wrote: On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 09:07:06 -0400, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 09:02:32 -0400, Moritz Warning moritzwarn...@web.de wrote: have you thought about just asking the authors of the Tango code in question? I would imagine they would say that they only see a minor resemblance in the api and asking wouldn't even be necessary from their point of view. One of the major authors of the Tango time module, John Chapman, cannot be located so until he is and agrees the proposed Phobos time module cannot be accepted. -Steve Well, then let's point this out (we need to contact JC, that's the problem at heart). All the blaming doesn't help anyone. FYI, John Chapman is no longer a blocker for this path. -Steve I have asked Kris Bell and Matti Niemenmaa. No Problem at all. what'd lars douche say? he's da lord o' the flies over there. Lars isn't listed as an author for the time code in Tango. But anyway, I can't imagine that he would mind.
Re: SHOO's time code
On Tue, 18 May 2010 06:30:35 -0400, Moritz Warning moritzwarn...@web.de wrote: Lars isn't listed as an author for the time code in Tango. But anyway, I can't imagine that he would mind. People have mentioned that there are 5 authors. Does anyone know who the 5th author is? He/she is not listed as an author in the source. -Steve
Re: SHOO's time code
On Tue, 18 May 2010 09:39:12 -0400, superdan su...@dan.org wrote: guys go with boost and std.gregorian n shit. sorry shoo. tango is a fucking boat anchor for d. shit. Having written most of the API for tango.time, I sorta like it :) I really like the API that SHOO came up with based on it. If there's any way to get SHOO's code into Phobos, I want to pursue that first. If this fails, we can go with boost. -Steve
Re: SHOO's time code
== Quote from Steven Schveighoffer (schvei...@yahoo.com)'s article On Tue, 18 May 2010 09:39:12 -0400, superdan su...@dan.org wrote: guys go with boost and std.gregorian n shit. sorry shoo. tango is a fucking boat anchor for d. shit. Having written most of the API for tango.time, I sorta like it :) I really like the API that SHOO came up with based on it. If there's any way to get SHOO's code into Phobos, I want to pursue that first. If this fails, we can go with boost. -Steve i feel ya bro. i once sorta liked a hoe with herpes. way i c it is simple. it's fucking dates and fucking times. wut the fuck. ain't a fucking operating system. no matter how u dress a pig u still call it a fucking pig. if u have da datetime functionality it don't matter to be cute. we is wasting time sucking lars douche's cock 2 give us permission 2 his fucking shit. fuck that shit. dis must be da least amount of power that got to some idiot's head.
Re: SHOO's time code
On Tue, 18 May 2010 14:24:40 +, superdan wrote: == Quote from Steven Schveighoffer (schvei...@yahoo.com)'s article On Tue, 18 May 2010 09:39:12 -0400, superdan su...@dan.org wrote: guys go with boost and std.gregorian n shit. sorry shoo. tango is a fucking boat anchor for d. shit. Having written most of the API for tango.time, I sorta like it :) I really like the API that SHOO came up with based on it. If there's any way to get SHOO's code into Phobos, I want to pursue that first. If this fails, we can go with boost. -Steve i feel ya bro. i once sorta liked a hoe with herpes. way i c it is simple. it's fucking dates and fucking times. wut the fuck. ain't a fucking operating system. no matter how u dress a pig u still call it a fucking pig. if u have da datetime functionality it don't matter to be cute. we is wasting time sucking lars douche's cock 2 give us permission 2 his fucking shit. fuck that shit. dis must be da least amount of power that got to some idiot's head. Wut? Person A wrote some code and had a look at code from person B. Now person C says that A need to get permission from B so that C can use the code from A. The reason is because the license of the code written by B isn't quite compatible with the license recently chosen by C. And now you are calling B an idiot/douche for that reason?
SHOO's time code
On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 09:55:51 -0400, Moritz Warning moritzwarn...@web.de wrote: On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 09:07:06 -0400, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 09:02:32 -0400, Moritz Warning moritzwarn...@web.de wrote: have you thought about just asking the authors of the Tango code in question? I would imagine they would say that they only see a minor resemblance in the api and asking wouldn't even be necessary from their point of view. One of the major authors of the Tango time module, John Chapman, cannot be located so until he is and agrees the proposed Phobos time module cannot be accepted. -Steve Well, then let's point this out (we need to contact JC, that's the problem at heart). All the blaming doesn't help anyone. FYI, John Chapman is no longer a blocker for this path. -Steve
Re: SHOO's time code
On Thu, 13 May 2010 16:45:45 -0400, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 09:55:51 -0400, Moritz Warning moritzwarn...@web.de wrote: On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 09:07:06 -0400, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: On Fri, 30 Apr 2010 09:02:32 -0400, Moritz Warning moritzwarn...@web.de wrote: have you thought about just asking the authors of the Tango code in question? I would imagine they would say that they only see a minor resemblance in the api and asking wouldn't even be necessary from their point of view. One of the major authors of the Tango time module, John Chapman, cannot be located so until he is and agrees the proposed Phobos time module cannot be accepted. -Steve Well, then let's point this out (we need to contact JC, that's the problem at heart). All the blaming doesn't help anyone. FYI, John Chapman is no longer a blocker for this path. -Steve I have asked Kris Bell and Matti Niemenmaa. No Problem at all.
