Re: [digitalradio] Digital Voice Repeaters on HF
Actually, my point is just the opposite. There is delay, but I don't think it accumulates. JT65a on HF shows me 2 things: 1. Hams will spend a minute per over to get a contact when the band is "dead" 2. Timed TX start is possible and gives a great value One of the problems of digital speech is the S/N figures requires, but if we relax the real time requirement, we can get by with a worse ratio. Couple this with the repeater idea, and you get a real advantage. So, let's say you can (just to pic a random number) send 10 seconds of spech in 30 seconds. So you TX for 30 seconds, starting on the :00 minute boundary. Then you RX for 10 seconds to the higher-power repeater to get (close to) realtime audio. That leaves the other end of you QSO 20 seconds to think and talk 10 seconds worth before :00 comes around and he or she starts to TX. This isn't like PTT for the AOR DV system, but it wouldn't require new hardware designs, just soundcard software. It would have a similar feeling to the JT65a system, which we know people are willing to experiment with. And, it doen't accumulate delay. Leigh/WA5ZNU On Mon, 14 May 2007 9:32 am, W2XJ wrote: > The problem is that if this is a store and forward repeater you will > accumulate too much time delay. > > > Leigh L Klotz, Jr. wrote: >> Here is a related idea: We have seen with JT65a that sometimes when we >> think the band is closed, it is just very poor instead. W1AW, which >> one >> can sometimes hear all lone on the high bands (due to its power and >> antennas) shows us this as well. I..e., what we assume is no >> communications may in fact be just very noisy. >> >> Shannon tells us there is no limit to the S/N we can tolerate if we >> reduce the data rate. >> >> So there may be a place as well for a repeater that receives >> lower-power >> stations slowly and retransmits them as higher power faster, even >> though >> it it couldn't then do the clever interleave that Bonnie proposes for >> other situations. >> >> This idea would be somewhat like VHF FM repeaters, as they use the >> limiting feature of FM to discriminate a noise-free low-power signal >> and >> then retransmit. Instead, it would decode a low baud rate, ECC'd >> signal >> to obtain a noiseless signal to re-encode and retransmit. >> >> Leigh/WA5ZNU >> On Mon, 14 May 2007 3:22 am, bruce mallon wrote: >> >>> Then DO IT and let the FCC rule . >>> >>> Just remember for your long distance digipeaters to >>> work the band must be open . >>> unless your going to use ECHOLINK and if so whats the >>> point ? >>> >>> >>> --- expeditionradio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> >>> Like many kinds of interesting digital communications, it seems that this sort of digital repeater falls into the gray area of FCC rules. The "retransmit" rules may preclude it. Welcome to Technology Jail. Nothing should stop an operator in another country from setting one up, it it could be used by US operators. Bonnie KQ6XA > This type of single channel HF digital voice repeater is perfectly OK > under USA's present FCC rules, and the rules of most other countries. > > Bonnie KQ6XA > > > > Digital Voice repeaters, using single-channel > > > near-real-time > > > interleaved multiplexed OFDM, could work in a 5kHz > > > bandwidth. > >>> >>> >>> >>> Pinpoint >>> customers who are looking for what you sell. >>> http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ >>> >>> >>> Announce your digital presence via our Interactive Sked Page at >>> http://www.obriensweb.com/drsked/drsked.php >>> >>> Yahoo! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > > Announce your digital presence via our Interactive Sked Page at > http://www.obriensweb.com/drsked/drsked.php > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >
Re: [digitalradio] Digital Voice Repeaters on HF
The problem is that if this is a store and forward repeater you will accumulate too much time delay. Leigh L Klotz, Jr. wrote: > Here is a related idea: We have seen with JT65a that sometimes when we > think the band is closed, it is just very poor instead. W1AW, which one > can sometimes hear all lone on the high bands (due to its power and > antennas) shows us this as well. I..e., what we assume is no > communications may in fact be just very noisy. > > Shannon tells us there is no limit to the S/N we can tolerate if we > reduce the data rate. > > So there may be a place as well for a repeater that receives lower-power > stations slowly and retransmits them as higher power faster, even though > it it couldn't then do the clever interleave that Bonnie proposes for > other situations. > > This idea would be somewhat like VHF FM repeaters, as they use the > limiting feature of FM to discriminate a noise-free low-power signal and > then retransmit. Instead, it would decode a low baud rate, ECC'd signal > to obtain a noiseless signal to re-encode and retransmit. > > Leigh/WA5ZNU > On Mon, 14 May 2007 3:22 am, bruce mallon wrote: > >>Then DO IT and let the FCC rule . >> >>Just remember for your long distance digipeaters to >>work the band must be open . >>unless your going to use ECHOLINK and if so whats the >>point ? >> >> >>--- expeditionradio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> >>> Like many kinds of interesting digital >>> communications, it seems that >>> this sort of digital repeater falls into the gray >>> area of FCC rules. >>> The "retransmit" rules may preclude it. Welcome to >>> Technology Jail. >>> Nothing should stop an operator in another country >>> from setting one >>> up, it it could be used by US operators. >>> >>> Bonnie KQ6XA >>> >>> >>> >>> > This type of single channel HF digital voice >>> repeater is perfectly OK >>> > under USA's present FCC rules, and the rules of >>> most other countries. >>> > >>> > Bonnie KQ6XA >>> > >>> > > > Digital Voice repeaters, using single-channel >>> > > > near-real-time >>> > > > interleaved multiplexed OFDM, could work in a >>> 5kHz >>> > > > bandwidth. >>> > >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >>Pinpoint >> >>customers who are looking for what you sell. >>http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ >> >> >>Announce your digital presence via our Interactive Sked Page at >>http://www.obriensweb.com/drsked/drsked.php >> >>Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> > >
Re: [digitalradio] Digital Voice Repeaters on HF
Here is a related idea: We have seen with JT65a that sometimes when we think the band is closed, it is just very poor instead. W1AW, which one can sometimes hear all lone on the high bands (due to its power and antennas) shows us this as well. I..e., what we assume is no communications may in fact be just very noisy. Shannon tells us there is no limit to the S/N we can tolerate if we reduce the data rate. So there may be a place as well for a repeater that receives lower-power stations slowly and retransmits them as higher power faster, even though it it couldn't then do the clever interleave that Bonnie proposes for other situations. This idea would be somewhat like VHF FM repeaters, as they use the limiting feature of FM to discriminate a noise-free low-power signal and then retransmit. Instead, it would decode a low baud rate, ECC'd signal to obtain a noiseless signal to re-encode and retransmit. Leigh/WA5ZNU On Mon, 14 May 2007 3:22 am, bruce mallon wrote: > Then DO IT and let the FCC rule . > > Just remember for your long distance digipeaters to > work the band must be open . > unless your going to use ECHOLINK and if so whats the > point ? > > > --- expeditionradio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Like many kinds of interesting digital >> communications, it seems that >> this sort of digital repeater falls into the gray >> area of FCC rules. >> The "retransmit" rules may preclude it. Welcome to >> Technology Jail. >> Nothing should stop an operator in another country >> from setting one >> up, it it could be used by US operators. >> >> Bonnie KQ6XA >> >> >> >> > This type of single channel HF digital voice >> repeater is perfectly OK >> > under USA's present FCC rules, and the rules of >> most other countries. >> > >> > Bonnie KQ6XA >> > >> > > > Digital Voice repeaters, using single-channel >> > > > near-real-time >> > > > interleaved multiplexed OFDM, could work in a >> 5kHz >> > > > bandwidth. >> > >> >> >> > > > > > Pinpoint > > customers who are looking for what you sell. > http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ > > > Announce your digital presence via our Interactive Sked Page at > http://www.obriensweb.com/drsked/drsked.php > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > >
Re: [digitalradio] Digital Voice Repeaters on HF
If we are talking about DIGITAL VOICE, I believe the answer is receiving the signal and demodulating it to the DIGITAL baseband stream, verifying the stream integrity, and then, if tit passes the integrity test, reshaping (regenerating the pulses) and remodulating. No decoding or converting to baseband other than to monitor the content, if any. Integrity check is important to avoid retransmitting garbage. Seems it is a task for a fairly powerful PC with a soundcard, at least a P III with 256 MB RAM and a decent audio card. There should be some sort of periodic beacon transmitted to allow precise tuning to the digital repeater input frequency. 73, Jose, CO2JA W2XJ wrote: > MFJ sells a MFJ-662 pocket repeater for $79.95. Basically it is a digital > store > and forward box that records up to 32 seconds of audio and then re transmits > it > once the receiver is squelched or after the 32 seconds. They claim it works > with > any rig including HTs and is legal in any band but that would mean some sort > of > PL or DTMF tones would be required to prevent the system from keying on > undesired signals. > > > > > Andrew O'Brien wrote: >> So, , how would one actually "repeat" a signal ? >> >> Andy __ V Conferencia Internacional de Energía Renovable, Ahorro de Energía y Educación Energética. 22 al 25 de mayo de 2007 Palacio de las Convenciones, Ciudad de la Habana, Cuba http://www.cujae.edu.cu/eventos/cier Participe en Universidad 2008. 11 al 15 de febrero del 2008. Palacio de las Convenciones, Ciudad de la Habana, Cuba http://www.universidad2008.cu
Re: [digitalradio] Digital Voice Repeaters on HF
MFJ sells a MFJ-662 pocket repeater for $79.95. Basically it is a digital store and forward box that records up to 32 seconds of audio and then re transmits it once the receiver is squelched or after the 32 seconds. They claim it works with any rig including HTs and is legal in any band but that would mean some sort of PL or DTMF tones would be required to prevent the system from keying on undesired signals. Andrew O'Brien wrote: > So, , how would one actually "repeat" a signal ? > > Andy >
Re: [digitalradio] Digital Voice Repeaters on HF
So, , how would one actually "repeat" a signal ? Andy
Re: [digitalradio] Digital Voice Repeaters on HF
Then DO IT and let the FCC rule . Just remember for your long distance digipeaters to work the band must be open . unless your going to use ECHOLINK and if so whats the point ? --- expeditionradio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Like many kinds of interesting digital > communications, it seems that > this sort of digital repeater falls into the gray > area of FCC rules. > The "retransmit" rules may preclude it. Welcome to > Technology Jail. > Nothing should stop an operator in another country > from setting one > up, it it could be used by US operators. > > Bonnie KQ6XA > > > > > This type of single channel HF digital voice > repeater is perfectly OK > > under USA's present FCC rules, and the rules of > most other countries. > > > > Bonnie KQ6XA > > > > > > Digital Voice repeaters, using single-channel > > > > near-real-time > > > > interleaved multiplexed OFDM, could work in a > 5kHz > > > > bandwidth. > > > > > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
[digitalradio] Digital Voice Repeaters on HF
Like many kinds of interesting digital communications, it seems that this sort of digital repeater falls into the gray area of FCC rules. The "retransmit" rules may preclude it. Welcome to Technology Jail. Nothing should stop an operator in another country from setting one up, it it could be used by US operators. Bonnie KQ6XA > This type of single channel HF digital voice repeater is perfectly OK > under USA's present FCC rules, and the rules of most other countries. > > Bonnie KQ6XA > > > > Digital Voice repeaters, using single-channel > > > near-real-time > > > interleaved multiplexed OFDM, could work in a 5kHz > > > bandwidth. >
Re: [digitalradio] Digital Voice Repeaters on HF (Re: Nearly Vacant HF Spectrum)
Hello, Howard I snipped everything out except for that quoted, because I couldn't think of a better reason than that asked in your question. So I say, YES! (even if it might not be so, but let 'em think it is). Just by that, inovation might surface in the process. If we don't use the frequencies, then it's our own fault for not holding on to them when they're taken. Sorry if I took a simplistic view but what the hey. It's only one aspect of your thread, I know. Howard W6IDS Richmond, IN - Original Message - From: "Howard Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 9:14 PM Subject: [digitalradio] Digital Voice Repeaters on HF (Re: Nearly Vacant HF Spectrum) OK, I will ask... >SNIP< >SNIP< Is the primary purpose to use the bands so we don't lose them?
[digitalradio] Digital Voice Repeaters on HF
> Leigh/WA5ZNU wrote: > I would love to try a DV repeater on upper HF...10m soulds like the > perfect spot. Repeaters are legal there and phone is legal > so it should be? A single channel time-multiplexed digital voice "repeater" is not classified as a Repeater under FCC rules. It can transmit in any phone band on MF/HF/VHF. I propose that we start at the top end of 20 meters, at center frequency 14346 (occupied bandwidth 14343 to 14349), and put the first DV repeater there. FCC rules: §97.3 Definitions. (a) The definitions of terms used in Part 97 are: (39) Repeater. An amateur station that simultaneously retransmits the transmission of another amateur station on a different channel or channels. Bonnie KQ6XA .
[digitalradio] Digital Voice Repeaters on HF (Re: Nearly Vacant HF Spectrum)
> bruce mallon wa4gch wrote: > AND if this is true why are they not legal now? Hi Bruce, This type of single channel HF digital voice repeater is perfectly OK under USA's present FCC rules, and the rules of most other countries. Bonnie KQ6XA > > Digital Voice repeaters, using single-channel > > near-real-time > > interleaved multiplexed OFDM, could work in a 5kHz > > bandwidth.
[digitalradio] Digital Voice Repeaters on HF (Re: Nearly Vacant HF Spectrum)
OK, I will ask... Am I correct in assuming that rules would need to change to allow automatic operation? Is it right to think the only improvement in communications would be extending ground wave (since this would happen when the bands were not open)? What would happen when the bands did open? Would the repeaters be able to listen before transmitting? For all modes? Is the primary purpose to use the bands so we don't lose them? Howard K5HB --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, "expeditionradio" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > bruce mallon wrote: > > Would you like to show us those frequency's? > > And would you like to show them when the MUF gets that > > high. > > Hi Bruce, > > Digital Voice repeaters, using single-channel near-real-time > interleaved multiplexed OFDM, could work in a 5kHz bandwidth. This is > a viable bandwidth for a single channel DV voice repeater in any HF > amateur radio band, regardless of propagation. > > Take a look at the nearly vacant HF amateur radio spectrum, 24 > hours/day, regardless of our position in the solar cycle: > > 21385-21450 kHz nearly vacant 24/7/350 > 24890-24990 kHz nearly vacant 24/7/365 > 28550-29500 kHz nearly vacant 24/7/350 > > Other areas of HF amateur radio spectrum are nearly vacant at > different times of day or night, relative to our position in the solar > cycle. > > During at least 4 years at the bottom of every 11 year solar cycle, > some HF amateur radio bands are nearly vacant at various times > of day or night. > > Examples of nearly vacant HF ham bands: > > 1800-2000 kHz 2hr after sunrise to 2hr before sunset > 3500-4000 kHz 5hr after sunrise to 3hr before sunset > 14000-14350 kHz 5hr after sunset to 1hr before sunrise > 18000-18168 kHz 4hr after sunset to sunrise > 21000-21450 kHz 4hr after sunset to sunrise > 24890-24990 kHz 3hr after sunset to sunrise > 28000-29500 kHz 3hr after sunset to sunrise > > 73 Bonnie KQ6XA >
Re: [digitalradio] Digital Voice Repeaters on HF (Re: Nearly Vacant HF Spectrum)
I would love to try a DV repeater on upper HF...10m soulds like the perfect spot. Repeaters are legal there and phone is legal so it should be? Also, on 17m don't go below 18.068, hihi. 73, Leigh/WA5ZNU
Re: [digitalradio] Digital Voice Repeaters on HF (Re: Nearly Vacant HF Spectrum)
Now I'm not a big 12 meter guy but from what i remember it gets packed when open. On 10 meters 29.000 - 29.200 has classic AM, 29.2 - 29.5 used to have some satellite users ... IF you could show under OPEN band conditions it might work you might have something HOWEVER E-Skip can come and go without warning. Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with the added security of spyware protection. http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/norton/index.php
[digitalradio] Digital Voice Repeaters on HF (Re: Nearly Vacant HF Spectrum)
No offense Bonnie, But if you believe there is no activity on the freqs/times you mentioned below you really need an antenna (and doubt you do as I can work you often). Guess it all depends on how one defines "nearly vacant". And of course that will change drastically with the sunspot cycle. Hope to see you on the air, maybe on one of those nearly vacant freqs. As an aside, Olivia performed very well when we were on the other nightimpressed with its weak signal capability for a "conversational" mode. Be well, Bill N9DSJ --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, "expeditionradio" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Bruce, > > Digital Voice repeaters, using single-channel near-real-time > interleaved multiplexed OFDM, could work in a 5kHz bandwidth. This is > a viable bandwidth for a single channel DV voice repeater in any HF > amateur radio band, regardless of propagation. > > Take a look at the nearly vacant HF amateur radio spectrum, 24 > hours/day, regardless of our position in the solar cycle: > > 21385-21450 kHz nearly vacant 24/7/350 > 24890-24990 kHz nearly vacant 24/7/365 > 28550-29500 kHz nearly vacant 24/7/350 > > Other areas of HF amateur radio spectrum are nearly vacant at > different times of day or night, relative to our position in the solar > cycle. > > During at least 4 years at the bottom of every 11 year solar cycle, > some HF amateur radio bands are nearly vacant at various times > of day or night. > > Examples of nearly vacant HF ham bands: > > 1800-2000 kHz 2hr after sunrise to 2hr before sunset > 3500-4000 kHz 5hr after sunrise to 3hr before sunset > 14000-14350 kHz 5hr after sunset to 1hr before sunrise > 18000-18168 kHz 4hr after sunset to sunrise > 21000-21450 kHz 4hr after sunset to sunrise > 24890-24990 kHz 3hr after sunset to sunrise > 28000-29500 kHz 3hr after sunset to sunrise > > 73 Bonnie KQ6XA >
Re: [digitalradio] Digital Voice Repeaters on HF (Re: Nearly Vacant HF Spectrum)
AND if this is true why are they not legal now? --- expeditionradio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > bruce mallon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Would you like to show us those frequency's? > > And would you like to show them when the MUF gets > that > > high. > > Hi Bruce, > > Digital Voice repeaters, using single-channel > near-real-time > interleaved multiplexed OFDM, could work in a 5kHz > bandwidth. This is > a viable bandwidth for a single channel DV voice > repeater in any HF > amateur radio band, regardless of propagation. > > Take a look at the nearly vacant HF amateur radio > spectrum, 24 > hours/day, regardless of our position in the solar > cycle: > > 21385-21450 kHz nearly vacant 24/7/350 > 24890-24990 kHz nearly vacant 24/7/365 > 28550-29500 kHz nearly vacant 24/7/350 > > Other areas of HF amateur radio spectrum are nearly > vacant at > different times of day or night, relative to our > position in the solar > cycle. > > During at least 4 years at the bottom of every 11 > year solar cycle, > some HF amateur radio bands are nearly vacant at > various times > of day or night. > > Examples of nearly vacant HF ham bands: > > 1800-2000 kHz 2hr after sunrise to 2hr before sunset > 3500-4000 kHz 5hr after sunrise to 3hr before sunset > 14000-14350 kHz 5hr after sunset to 1hr before > sunrise > 18000-18168 kHz 4hr after sunset to sunrise > 21000-21450 kHz 4hr after sunset to sunrise > 24890-24990 kHz 3hr after sunset to sunrise > 28000-29500 kHz 3hr after sunset to sunrise > > 73 Bonnie KQ6XA > > Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC
[digitalradio] Digital Voice Repeaters on HF (Re: Nearly Vacant HF Spectrum)
> bruce mallon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Would you like to show us those frequency's? > And would you like to show them when the MUF gets that > high. Hi Bruce, Digital Voice repeaters, using single-channel near-real-time interleaved multiplexed OFDM, could work in a 5kHz bandwidth. This is a viable bandwidth for a single channel DV voice repeater in any HF amateur radio band, regardless of propagation. Take a look at the nearly vacant HF amateur radio spectrum, 24 hours/day, regardless of our position in the solar cycle: 21385-21450 kHz nearly vacant 24/7/350 24890-24990 kHz nearly vacant 24/7/365 28550-29500 kHz nearly vacant 24/7/350 Other areas of HF amateur radio spectrum are nearly vacant at different times of day or night, relative to our position in the solar cycle. During at least 4 years at the bottom of every 11 year solar cycle, some HF amateur radio bands are nearly vacant at various times of day or night. Examples of nearly vacant HF ham bands: 1800-2000 kHz 2hr after sunrise to 2hr before sunset 3500-4000 kHz 5hr after sunrise to 3hr before sunset 14000-14350 kHz 5hr after sunset to 1hr before sunrise 18000-18168 kHz 4hr after sunset to sunrise 21000-21450 kHz 4hr after sunset to sunrise 24890-24990 kHz 3hr after sunset to sunrise 28000-29500 kHz 3hr after sunset to sunrise 73 Bonnie KQ6XA
