[digitalradio] Re: 3rd Generation Digital radio
Of course, I have a different perspective coming from the UK where amateur radio isn't regarded as primarily an emergency communications service. :) Julian, G4ILO Just wait till the military run short of radio operators .. for :) read :( .. that was why morse was part of the licence and is not any mode ... G .. --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, g4ilo jul...@... wrote: I agree with you. I don't see any merit in doing on the amateur bands what can be done on commercial frequencies. Indeed, I don't really see that even D-Star enhances the hobby in any way. Being able to call someone whereever they are by keying their call into your radio is not what ham radio is about, in my view. I already have a radio that can reach people wherever they are. It's called a cellphone. I'm afraid that technology is starting to take the magic out of radio. RF is being reduced to a means of connecting someone to a network that guarantees reliable communication. That isn't what attracted me into this hobby 40 years ago. Of course, I have a different perspective coming from the UK where amateur radio isn't regarded as primarily an emergency communications service. :) Julian, G4ILO --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, af6it af6it@ wrote: A perhaps narrow outsider's opinion: There is potential here for both good and for wreaking havoc with fellow users of VHF/UHF amateur bands given a paradigm shift into a G3 digital era. Improving upon packet's abilities could be a very good thing- particularly for those involved in EmComm. But running analog FM users away just because commercial gov't users have had the change to digital crammed down their throat would be a very bad idea. If it can peacefully co-exist with current users- then no problem! As a potential user I confess that I'm not terribly interested in digital modes up here. Adding more specialized equipment has no appeal nor any advantage to my operating style. HF digital is much more exciting useful to me. (YMMV) My greatest fear is that someone in an urban upper 5% utilization zone might find a listening ear in the FCC who would recklessly force a draconian change to make us all go 100% digital VHF above- even for the 95% who have no trouble finding available analog freq's. This is ham radio after all- not hard core government EmComm! (Which is I suppose STILL waiting to see how beneficial the move will prove to be for them) One other comment: Tactical ham frequencies??!!! What in the world??? For ham SWAT teams? LOL Didn't Indianapolis PD get into trouble for less than that? :-) 73 de Stu AF6IT
[digitalradio] Re: 3rd Generation Digital radio
I agree with you. I don't see any merit in doing on the amateur bands what can be done on commercial frequencies. Indeed, I don't really see that even D-Star enhances the hobby in any way. Being able to call someone whereever they are by keying their call into your radio is not what ham radio is about, in my view. I already have a radio that can reach people wherever they are. It's called a cellphone. I'm afraid that technology is starting to take the magic out of radio. RF is being reduced to a means of connecting someone to a network that guarantees reliable communication. That isn't what attracted me into this hobby 40 years ago. Of course, I have a different perspective coming from the UK where amateur radio isn't regarded as primarily an emergency communications service. :) Julian, G4ILO --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, af6it af...@... wrote: A perhaps narrow outsider's opinion: There is potential here for both good and for wreaking havoc with fellow users of VHF/UHF amateur bands given a paradigm shift into a G3 digital era. Improving upon packet's abilities could be a very good thing- particularly for those involved in EmComm. But running analog FM users away just because commercial gov't users have had the change to digital crammed down their throat would be a very bad idea. If it can peacefully co-exist with current users- then no problem! As a potential user I confess that I'm not terribly interested in digital modes up here. Adding more specialized equipment has no appeal nor any advantage to my operating style. HF digital is much more exciting useful to me. (YMMV) My greatest fear is that someone in an urban upper 5% utilization zone might find a listening ear in the FCC who would recklessly force a draconian change to make us all go 100% digital VHF above- even for the 95% who have no trouble finding available analog freq's. This is ham radio after all- not hard core government EmComm! (Which is I suppose STILL waiting to see how beneficial the move will prove to be for them) One other comment: Tactical ham frequencies??!!! What in the world??? For ham SWAT teams? LOL Didn't Indianapolis PD get into trouble for less than that? :-) 73 de Stu AF6IT
RE: [digitalradio] Re: 3rd Generation Digital radio
D-Star repeaters provide much better coverage due to the codec (I base this on one test made which was most impressive). As for technology - this is part of the Education benefits in Amateur Radio, my interest in radio resulted in a degree in electronics mathematics. I listen almost all day while working on technology. Anyone can pick up a microphone and talk - so why not go 'down the pub' instead? Some believe that Radio Hams should be banned from all emergency situations in the UK. In countries with a much larger land mass such as the US it's arguable a different matter but for European countries with a good telecoms infrastructure? Simon Brown, HB9DRV http://sdr-radio.com -Original Message- From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:digitalra...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of g4ilo Indeed, I don't really see that even D-Star enhances the hobby in any way I'm afraid that technology is starting to take the magic out of radio. Of course, I have a different perspective coming from the UK where amateur radio isn't regarded as primarily an emergency communications service. :)
Re: [digitalradio] Re: 3rd Generation Digital radio
Simon, Interesting comment about EmComm in the UK. I live in an eathquake-prone area. We assume the telecoms infrastructure will be down for days or weeks, depending on severity. Hurricane Katrina showed other weather problems can take out the telecoms and power infrastructure for a long time. So EmComm experts here build up the ability to get back on the air without infrastructure. The DStar network, in my opinion should not be a primary part of the EmComm plan, but local unconnected repeaters running on emergency generators could help using DStar apps like DRats for accurate written forms over the radio. Presumably the command center would also have long distance RF links on traditional HF. Hams involvement in EmComm provides another huge resource -- trained people. If public service employees can't get to their work during a disaster, there will probably be some nearby, trained Hams available. The fact that they come with their own radios is a bonus. Responding to Julian G4ILO, I am old enough to remember the AMers complain about the terrible squawk from the new-fangled SSB. But the new technology (wasn't actually new, but new to many Hams in the late 50s) brought in new Hams, increased excitement, homebrewing, experimentation and fun. I see much of the same going on in the DStar community. Now that non-ICOM gear is getting on the air, a few Hams are homebrewing hardware and more are homebrewing software. There's a lot of excitement in this space now. Yes, it is a mixture of VOIP with RF technologies, and in normal times a cell phone would do the same thing, but that statement is true of traditional HF modes -- Hams worldwide could hang up their gear and go to telephones and the internet if simple communicating were the goal. I personally love to sit out in a field doing PSK31 with my NUE-PSK modem and an FT-817ND, both battery-operated, using a portable vertical that goes up in 3 minutes. No infrastructure at all, other than how the battery gets recharged every other day. Some portable solar panels would fix that. I don't get the same thrill using my cellphone or internet email. Jim - K6JM - Original Message - From: Simon HB9DRV To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 12:54 AM Subject: RE: [digitalradio] Re: 3rd Generation Digital radio D-Star repeaters provide much better coverage due to the codec (I base this on one test made which was most impressive). As for technology - this is part of the Education benefits in Amateur Radio, my interest in radio resulted in a degree in electronics mathematics. I listen almost all day while working on technology. Anyone can pick up a microphone and talk - so why not go 'down the pub' instead? Some believe that Radio Hams should be banned from all emergency situations in the UK. In countries with a much larger land mass such as the US it's arguable a different matter but for European countries with a good telecoms infrastructure? Simon Brown, HB9DRV http://sdr-radio.com -Original Message- From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:digitalra...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of g4ilo Indeed, I don't really see that even D-Star enhances the hobby in any way I'm afraid that technology is starting to take the magic out of radio. Of course, I have a different perspective coming from the UK where amateur radio isn't regarded as primarily an emergency communications service. :)
[digitalradio] Re : 3rd generation digital radio
I believe a substantial number of American radio amateurs regard using radio tranceivers and their associated pieces of equipment in an entirely different way to their counterparts in Europe. The two continents are entirely different and consequently the people who live in the two continents are different. In America great stress is put upon emergency survival, luckily in Europe we don't have to contend with regular tornado's and hurricanes, ice storms which destroy electricity supply to vast areas of the country, and huge amounts of melting snow which can raise river depths by tens of feet and cause flooding and hardship to many many thousands of people. Situations such as these occur rarely, if at all, in Europe, the continent is more densely populated and services to support the population are provided by professional trained personnel in every country at a substantial cost to its citizens. Luckily most of us in Europe regard amateur radio as a hobby, somewhat akin to fishing, we sit there, put out a call and don't know what we are about to catch, its a lucky dip ! Kind regards, Mel G0GQK
Re: [digitalradio] Re : 3rd generation digital radio
Mel, You make a good point about our differences. In the US, EmComm is a niche that some hams fill enthusiastically, while others don't get involved but are grateful for those who do. It's always there to learn about in the future, like digital modes, QRP, EME, UHF DX, low bands, etc. So much to do, so much to learn, so little time Jim - K6JM - Original Message - From: raf3151019 To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 2:34 PM Subject: [digitalradio] Re : 3rd generation digital radio I believe a substantial number of American radio amateurs regard using radio tranceivers and their associated pieces of equipment in an entirely different way to their counterparts in Europe. The two continents are entirely different and consequently the people who live in the two continents are different. In America great stress is put upon emergency survival, luckily in Europe we don't have to contend with regular tornado's and hurricanes, ice storms which destroy electricity supply to vast areas of the country, and huge amounts of melting snow which can raise river depths by tens of feet and cause flooding and hardship to many many thousands of people. Situations such as these occur rarely, if at all, in Europe, the continent is more densely populated and services to support the population are provided by professional trained personnel in every country at a substantial cost to its citizens. Luckily most of us in Europe regard amateur radio as a hobby, somewhat akin to fishing, we sit there, put out a call and don't know what we are about to catch, its a lucky dip ! Kind regards, Mel G0GQK
[digitalradio] Re: 3rd Generation Digital radio
I think you missed a generation or two. First generation - CW (binary states plus time) Second generation - RTTY and FAX Third generation - AX.25 packet Fourth generation - what the OP called the first generation etc... 73 de Dave, NF2G
[digitalradio] Re: 3rd Generation Digital radio
A perhaps narrow outsider's opinion: There is potential here for both good and for wreaking havoc with fellow users of VHF/UHF amateur bands given a paradigm shift into a G3 digital era. Improving upon packet's abilities could be a very good thing- particularly for those involved in EmComm. But running analog FM users away just because commercial gov't users have had the change to digital crammed down their throat would be a very bad idea. If it can peacefully co-exist with current users- then no problem! As a potential user I confess that I'm not terribly interested in digital modes up here. Adding more specialized equipment has no appeal nor any advantage to my operating style. HF digital is much more exciting useful to me. (YMMV) My greatest fear is that someone in an urban upper 5% utilization zone might find a listening ear in the FCC who would recklessly force a draconian change to make us all go 100% digital VHF above- even for the 95% who have no trouble finding available analog freq's. This is ham radio after all- not hard core government EmComm! (Which is I suppose STILL waiting to see how beneficial the move will prove to be for them) One other comment: Tactical ham frequencies??!!! What in the world??? For ham SWAT teams? LOL Didn't Indianapolis PD get into trouble for less than that? :-) 73 de Stu AF6IT --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, Greg n9...@... wrote: If the first generation of digital was PACKET-IRLQ-Echolink-APRS (generation Zero was CW and RTTY), then the second generation was D-Star. D-Star brought everything together along with digital voice. While D-Star is great, its technology is already dated. So what will the third generation of digital radio look like? I am thinking that it will be more like the Trunked Radio (digital) or either P25 phase II or TETRA. TETRA is 25 Khz wide channel with four TDMA slots with a very low cost handheld (under $400) and is used in Europe within the 400 Mhz band. P25 digital currently is 800 Mhz, FDMA (25 Khz channel). Phase II will move to a single 12.5 Khz channel with two TDMA slots. Additional capacity can be added with additional repeaters (12.5 Khz) working under a common controller. So, could we do something like that within amateur radio? We have to be above 220 Mhz in order to get 9600 baud rates. If we look at bands, 900 Mhz may be to high and 440 may be too crowded. It was suggested that we go 220 as it gives a mix of characteristics of both 2m and 440 and is fairly open. If we go to P25 (phase II) we do have to overcome the cost of the VOCORDER. That could be done with open P25 in software in an software defined radio (SDR). Most of the military radios these days are SDR. A trunked system would allow us at least state wide communications that would include voice, data and position reporting (APRS). Also that one could link into the system via VoIP (like D-Star or Echolink). A small community might only need a single repeater with two FDMA slots. In big cities it might be that there are multiple repeater sites with two or three repeaters (4 to 6 slots). Also five simplex frequencies for tactical operations or remote areas (like using 146.52 and 144.39 now). Using 9600 baud rates would allow for greater amounts of information. And an SDR would be flexible enough to handle such data rates. Any comments or ideas? Let the flame wars begin.
[digitalradio] Re: 3rd Generation Digital radio
That was why someone suggested that 220 be looked at rather than 440. Both 2m and 440 have heavy usage with analog repeaters plus SSB/CW (and satellite). Thus 220, or 900 Mhz, would be far better for a third generation digital (trunked) network. After all it is going to mean a new radio anyway. As for tactical, that is a term used by the ARES group in my county for five simplex frequencies on 2m and five on 440 that are backup for when the repeaters go down. They are also used during exercises and during disasters for local communications at the scene. The national trunking networks on 800 have five frequencies that are for simplex and tactical operations. If we have a ham version of a trunked, digital network, that is a feature that needs to be included. Just some thoughts but you did bring up good points. --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, af6it af...@... wrote: A perhaps narrow outsider's opinion: There is potential here for both good and for wreaking havoc with fellow users of VHF/UHF amateur bands given a paradigm shift into a G3 digital era. Improving upon packet's abilities could be a very good thing- particularly for those involved in EmComm. But running analog FM users away just because commercial gov't users have had the change to digital crammed down their throat would be a very bad idea. If it can peacefully co-exist with current users- then no problem! As a potential user I confess that I'm not terribly interested in digital modes up here. Adding more specialized equipment has no appeal nor any advantage to my operating style. HF digital is much more exciting useful to me. (YMMV) My greatest fear is that someone in an urban upper 5% utilization zone might find a listening ear in the FCC who would recklessly force a draconian change to make us all go 100% digital VHF above- even for the 95% who have no trouble finding available analog freq's. This is ham radio after all- not hard core government EmComm! (Which is I suppose STILL waiting to see how beneficial the move will prove to be for them) One other comment: Tactical ham frequencies??!!! What in the world??? For ham SWAT teams? LOL Didn't Indianapolis PD get into trouble for less than that? :-) 73 de Stu AF6IT --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, Greg n9nwo@ wrote: If the first generation of digital was PACKET-IRLQ-Echolink-APRS (generation Zero was CW and RTTY), then the second generation was D-Star. D-Star brought everything together along with digital voice. While D-Star is great, its technology is already dated. So what will the third generation of digital radio look like? I am thinking that it will be more like the Trunked Radio (digital) or either P25 phase II or TETRA. TETRA is 25 Khz wide channel with four TDMA slots with a very low cost handheld (under $400) and is used in Europe within the 400 Mhz band. P25 digital currently is 800 Mhz, FDMA (25 Khz channel). Phase II will move to a single 12.5 Khz channel with two TDMA slots. Additional capacity can be added with additional repeaters (12.5 Khz) working under a common controller. So, could we do something like that within amateur radio? We have to be above 220 Mhz in order to get 9600 baud rates. If we look at bands, 900 Mhz may be to high and 440 may be too crowded. It was suggested that we go 220 as it gives a mix of characteristics of both 2m and 440 and is fairly open. If we go to P25 (phase II) we do have to overcome the cost of the VOCORDER. That could be done with open P25 in software in an software defined radio (SDR). Most of the military radios these days are SDR. A trunked system would allow us at least state wide communications that would include voice, data and position reporting (APRS). Also that one could link into the system via VoIP (like D-Star or Echolink). A small community might only need a single repeater with two FDMA slots. In big cities it might be that there are multiple repeater sites with two or three repeaters (4 to 6 slots). Also five simplex frequencies for tactical operations or remote areas (like using 146.52 and 144.39 now). Using 9600 baud rates would allow for greater amounts of information. And an SDR would be flexible enough to handle such data rates. Any comments or ideas? Let the flame wars begin.
