Re: [digitalradio] Any tips for easily determining what Olivia formats people are using ?

[Ron Walters]

Thanks Mark,

Makes it easier to understand.

Ron W4LDE


Mark Miller wrote:

>At 10:55 AM 10/1/2005, you wrote:
>  
>
>>most of  the user are
>>using the lower bandwidth on 30 and lower since we have limited space
>>and its share more  with SSB, RTTY and the other digital modes..
>>
>>
>
>
>Yes that is certainly a factor, but on 40 most of the time I hear Olivia 
>and other modes right on top of the phone, so I am not sure given the 
>current allocations for 40 meters that this really makes much 
>difference.  It seems that Olivia and phone can co-exist.
>
>I have put together a spreadsheet at 
>http://home.comcast.net/~mdmiller7/new_mfsk/tones_bw_baud_comp.htm that 
>lists all of the possible combinations of tones and bandwidth for 
>Olivia.  At the bottom you will see tabs that say all_possible, all_us, and 
>best. The all_possible tab is self explanatory, the all_us takes into 
>consideration the 300 baud limits that U.S. amateurs must operate under, 
>and best is the best combinations in MY OPINION optimized on characters per 
>second, baud rate, and interleaving.  Bandwidth is not taken into 
>consideration.
>
>The columns at the top are self explanatory, with the exception of 
>mult.  Mult is the bits per second multiplier that you get when you use 
>m-ary tones.  An example is that with 16 tones, you encode 4 bits per 
>symbol, so you get bit per second mulitiplier of 4.
>
>Take a look and see what you think.
>
>73,
>
>Mark N5RFX 
>
>
>
>
>
>The K3UK DIGITAL MODES SPOTTING CLUSTER AT telnet://208.15.25.196/
>More info at http:///www.obriensweb.com 
> 
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
>  
>



 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> 
Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page
http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/ELTolB/TM
~-> 

The K3UK DIGITAL MODES SPOTTING CLUSTER AT telnet://208.15.25.196/
More info at http:///www.obriensweb.com 
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/digitalradio/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [digitalradio] Any tips for easily determining what Olivia formats people are using ?

[Mark Miller]

At 10:55 AM 10/1/2005, you wrote:
>most of  the user are
>using the lower bandwidth on 30 and lower since we have limited space
>and its share more  with SSB, RTTY and the other digital modes..


Yes that is certainly a factor, but on 40 most of the time I hear Olivia 
and other modes right on top of the phone, so I am not sure given the 
current allocations for 40 meters that this really makes much 
difference.  It seems that Olivia and phone can co-exist.

I have put together a spreadsheet at 
http://home.comcast.net/~mdmiller7/new_mfsk/tones_bw_baud_comp.htm that 
lists all of the possible combinations of tones and bandwidth for 
Olivia.  At the bottom you will see tabs that say all_possible, all_us, and 
best. The all_possible tab is self explanatory, the all_us takes into 
consideration the 300 baud limits that U.S. amateurs must operate under, 
and best is the best combinations in MY OPINION optimized on characters per 
second, baud rate, and interleaving.  Bandwidth is not taken into 
consideration.

The columns at the top are self explanatory, with the exception of 
mult.  Mult is the bits per second multiplier that you get when you use 
m-ary tones.  An example is that with 16 tones, you encode 4 bits per 
symbol, so you get bit per second mulitiplier of 4.

Take a look and see what you think.

73,

Mark N5RFX 




 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> 
Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page
http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/ELTolB/TM
~-> 

The K3UK DIGITAL MODES SPOTTING CLUSTER AT telnet://208.15.25.196/
More info at http:///www.obriensweb.com 
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/digitalradio/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [digitalradio] Any tips for easily determining what Olivia formats people are using ?

[Ron Walters]

Mark,

Thanks for your info. on the tones/bandwidth,  most of  the user are 
using the lower bandwidth on 30 and lower since we have limited space 
and its share more  with SSB, RTTY and the other digital modes..  The 16 
tones 500Hz width gives us about a 20 WPM while the 8 - 500 provides us 
with about 30 WPM.  For heavy QRM /QSB yes the 16-500 works great, 
although I have not seen a major difference on 40 meters with DX 
stations.  I will try  some test next time on the 40 with Europe  and 
compare the  errors I see.   Wish we had some more activity on 30 meters 
, it is a great band and lots of space to use up around 10.138

Thanks Mark

Ron W4LDE

Mark Miller wrote:

>At 07:31 AM 10/1/2005, you wrote:
>  
>
>>on 30 meters and lower most use 500Hz width
>>at 8 tones during heavy QRM / QRN and poor condx, sometimes you will
>>hear 16 tones at 500Hz.
>>
>>
>
>Have on the air tests shown that 8 tones work better than 16 tones during 
>"heavy QRM / QRN and poor condx"?  It would seem that a higher baud rate 
>would help during ionospheric anomalies and that a lower baud rate would be 
>better that for poor S/N.  IZ8BLY describes this in his description of 
>chip64 at http://xoomer.virgilio.it/aporcino/Chip64/Chip64_description.pdf .
>
>The baud rate of Olivia with 8 tones at 500Hz is 62.5, and with 16 tones at 
>500 Hz is 31.25.  However the interleaving depth is greater at 16 tones 
>than it is with 8 tones which would help during periods of QSB.  It does 
>not seem that 8 tones at 500 Hz makes much sense.  You would be much better 
>operating 16 tones at 1000 Hz to get 62.5 baud and a greater interleave 
>depth.  I would be interested to hear about under what conditions 
>performance improves by moving from 16 tones at 1000Hz to 8 tones at 500 
>Hz.  I think it is only an artificial bandwidth constraint that dictates 
>500 Hz on 30 meters and lower, not a technical constraint.
>
>73,
>
>Mark N5RFX
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>The K3UK DIGITAL MODES SPOTTING CLUSTER AT telnet://208.15.25.196/
>More info at http:///www.obriensweb.com 
> 
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
>  
>



 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> 
Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page
http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/ELTolB/TM
~-> 

The K3UK DIGITAL MODES SPOTTING CLUSTER AT telnet://208.15.25.196/
More info at http:///www.obriensweb.com 
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/digitalradio/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [digitalradio] Any tips for easily determining what Olivia formats people are using ?

[Mark Miller]

At 07:31 AM 10/1/2005, you wrote:
>on 30 meters and lower most use 500Hz width
>at 8 tones during heavy QRM / QRN and poor condx, sometimes you will
>hear 16 tones at 500Hz.

Have on the air tests shown that 8 tones work better than 16 tones during 
"heavy QRM / QRN and poor condx"?  It would seem that a higher baud rate 
would help during ionospheric anomalies and that a lower baud rate would be 
better that for poor S/N.  IZ8BLY describes this in his description of 
chip64 at http://xoomer.virgilio.it/aporcino/Chip64/Chip64_description.pdf .

The baud rate of Olivia with 8 tones at 500Hz is 62.5, and with 16 tones at 
500 Hz is 31.25.  However the interleaving depth is greater at 16 tones 
than it is with 8 tones which would help during periods of QSB.  It does 
not seem that 8 tones at 500 Hz makes much sense.  You would be much better 
operating 16 tones at 1000 Hz to get 62.5 baud and a greater interleave 
depth.  I would be interested to hear about under what conditions 
performance improves by moving from 16 tones at 1000Hz to 8 tones at 500 
Hz.  I think it is only an artificial bandwidth constraint that dictates 
500 Hz on 30 meters and lower, not a technical constraint.

73,

Mark N5RFX







 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> 
Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page
http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/ELTolB/TM
~-> 

The K3UK DIGITAL MODES SPOTTING CLUSTER AT telnet://208.15.25.196/
More info at http:///www.obriensweb.com 
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/digitalradio/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [digitalradio] Any tips for easily determining what Olivia formats people are using ?

[Ron Walters]

Andy,

Looks like a 500Hz width signal, looks like your set for a 1000Hz width, 
OR it could be a CHIP64 signal, width looks about right.  Looks more 
like  chip64 than a Olivia signal to me, wish I could here it!

20 meters and higher most use a 1000Hz wide Olivia, some call it 
standard mode with 32 tones, on 30 meters and lower most use 500Hz width 
at 8 tones during heavy QRM / QRN and poor condx, sometimes you will 
hear 16 tones at 500Hz.  But I think you can narrow your hunt by using 
500Hz width below 20 meters.  Hope that helps.

Ron W4LDE


Andrew J. O'Brien wrote:

>  
> Any tips for easily determining what Olivia formats people are using?  
> I copied this Olivia signal (below) but could not decode it. I tried 
> all combinations of tones and bandwidth.
>  
> Andy K3UK
>  
>
>
> The K3UK DIGITAL MODES SPOTTING CLUSTER AT telnet://208.15.25.196/
> More info at http:///www.obriensweb.com
>
>
>
> 
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> *  Visit your group "digitalradio
>   " on the web.
>
> *  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>   
>
> *  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
>   Service .
>
>
> 
>



 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> 
Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page
http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/ELTolB/TM
~-> 

The K3UK DIGITAL MODES SPOTTING CLUSTER AT telnet://208.15.25.196/
More info at http:///www.obriensweb.com 
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/digitalradio/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [digitalradio] Any tips for easily determining what Olivia formats people are using ?

[Andrew J. O'Brien]

I was using Mixw but also use MultiPSK , Mixw seems 
a little easier on the eyes.
 
And K3UK
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  F.R. 
  Ashley 
  To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com 
  
  Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 11:58 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Any tips for 
  easily determining what Olivia formats people are using ?
  
  Andy,
   
  Which program do you use?   I am new at 
  Olivia and use MultiPSK.   I finally was able to decode a station 
  earlier, on "Standard" mode and USB.
  I am unable to tell which mode you are copying in 
  that pic.. actually it does not look like any Olivia sigs I have 
  seen.
   
  73 Buddy 
  WB4M
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Andrew J. 
O'Brien 
To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com 

Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 10:10 
PM
Subject: [digitalradio] Any tips for 
easily determining what Olivia formats people are using ?

 

Any tips for easily determining what Olivia 
formats people are using?  I copied this Olivia signal (below) but 
could not decode it. I tried all combinations of tones and 
bandwidth.
 
Andy K3UK
 






The K3UK DIGITAL MODES SPOTTING CLUSTER AT telnet://208.15.25.196/
More info at http:///www.obriensweb.com 






  




  
  
  YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



   Visit your group "digitalradio" on the web. 
   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



  

Re: [digitalradio] Any tips for easily determining what Olivia formats people are using ?

[Andrew J. O'Brien]

Thanks Paul, I did try inverting the signal but 
never did decode this bloke.  
 
Andy K3UK
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Paul L Schmidt 
  To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com 
  
  Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2005 3:42 
  AM
  Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Any tips for 
  easily determining what Olivia formats people are using ?
  That graphic looks to me like 500 Hz wide 8 
  tones.The bandwidth is the easy part to see from the waterfall - the 
  harder partis the number of tones.  If you look closely at the 
  display, you can seeeight stripes roughly defined in the 
  display.Could the sideband have been reversed?  Last I heard, 
  Olivia should alwaysbe transmitted on USB, but it may be someone is using 
  LSB?73,Paul / K9PSAndrew J. O'Brien 
  wrote:>  > Any tips for easily determining what Olivia 
  formats people are using?  I > copied this Olivia signal (below) 
  but could not decode it. I tried all > combinations of tones and 
  bandwidth.>  > Andy K3UK





The K3UK DIGITAL MODES SPOTTING CLUSTER AT telnet://208.15.25.196/
More info at http:///www.obriensweb.com 






  




  
  
  YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



   Visit your group "digitalradio" on the web. 
   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



  

Re: [digitalradio] Any tips for easily determining what Olivia formats people are using ?

[Paul L Schmidt]

That graphic looks to me like 500 Hz wide 8 tones.

The bandwidth is the easy part to see from the waterfall - the harder part
is the number of tones.  If you look closely at the display, you can see
eight stripes roughly defined in the display.

Could the sideband have been reversed?  Last I heard, Olivia should always
be transmitted on USB, but it may be someone is using LSB?

73,

Paul / K9PS

Andrew J. O'Brien wrote:
>  
> Any tips for easily determining what Olivia formats people are using?  I 
> copied this Olivia signal (below) but could not decode it. I tried all 
> combinations of tones and bandwidth.
>  
> Andy K3UK


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> 
Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page
http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/ELTolB/TM
~-> 

The K3UK DIGITAL MODES SPOTTING CLUSTER AT telnet://208.15.25.196/
More info at http:///www.obriensweb.com 
 
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/digitalradio/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 

Re: [digitalradio] Any tips for easily determining what Olivia formats people are using ?

[F.R. Ashley]

Andy,
 
Which program do you use?   I am new at 
Olivia and use MultiPSK.   I finally was able to decode a station 
earlier, on "Standard" mode and USB.
I am unable to tell which mode you are copying in 
that pic.. actually it does not look like any Olivia sigs I have 
seen.
 
73 Buddy 
WB4M

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Andrew J. 
  O'Brien 
  To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com 
  
  Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 10:10 
  PM
  Subject: [digitalradio] Any tips for 
  easily determining what Olivia formats people are using ?
  
   
  
  Any tips for easily determining what Olivia 
  formats people are using?  I copied this Olivia signal (below) but could 
  not decode it. I tried all combinations of tones and bandwidth.
   
  Andy K3UK
   
  





The K3UK DIGITAL MODES SPOTTING CLUSTER AT telnet://208.15.25.196/
More info at http:///www.obriensweb.com 






  




  
  
  YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



   Visit your group "digitalradio" on the web. 
   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.