Re: [tdf-discuss] Basic question about Oracle asking OOo community members to leave
On Monday 18 Oct 2010 16:58:40 M. Fioretti wrote: On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 04:48:23 AM +0200, Ramon Sole (ramon.s...@opscons.com) wrote: Both communities will be able to collaborate in tons of things, but the project leaders can't share responsabilities in both projects. If so, why to have two Communities? You can't fork a open source project and keep your responsabilities in the original one! It's astonishing just trying to do it. Thanks Ramon. You've summed up better than I could the two reasons that (without me being even completely aware of them) made me ask the question that started this thread. I was surprised seeing people who started TDF continuing to keep their OOo hats (1). And much more surprised to see all these surprised reactions to Oracle's resignment actions. I mean, I would have said that if there's anything surprising in that is ONLY the fact that it took so long. I'd assume that it took Oracle managers no more than 20 seconds after the initial TDF announcement to decide they wanted to do it, and Oracle lawyers much less than 20 days to decide if they could get away with it. I really don't know if there are other people today that still have any official role in both communities, OOo and TDF (or that have official roles only in OOo but have formally, publicly approved TDF). But if there are such people, I'm very interested to hear if they plan to resign before being resigned, and above all their general opinion about what Ramon said and on how to handle the OOo/Oracle - LibO/TDF relation in the future. thanks, M. Fioretti http://stop.zona-m.net (1) the intrinsical *validity* of the reasons that caused the creation of TDF are a totally separate issue, at least for me! I fully support the ideals of a foundation and have since day one 20001013 I hope that OOo and Oracle become part of the Foundation However, for the foreseeable future and barring any dramatic actions that make it untenable, I will remain firmly part of the OOo team and continue to promote OOo first and foremost, if people ask, and they have, I tell them all I know, but I do it as a OOo's representative in NZ and I make that clear. To me a fork is a good thing, it allows choice, it ensures the longevity of the OOo code and any publicity is good publicity :) Cheers GL -- Graham Lauder, OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant. INGOTs Assessor Trainer (International Grades in Open Technologies) www.theingots.org -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] unsubscribed posters
On Oct 16, 2010, at 00:50 , Barbara Duprey wrote: ... It is often not clear whether or not the OP is subscribed -- many can't/won't look at the full headers or filter on them, and sometimes they join the discussion later, when the header is not available. For somebody who really has an interest in the care and feeding of currently unsubscribed users, so they can eventually be brought into the community, or at least be happy with the software, this means that the OP may well be dissatisfied. They don't get answers, and assume we don't care. An additional complication here is that, as far as I have been able to see by going through the headers of messages I have approved, there is no easy way to see that these headers have been moderated as there is on the OOo list. Almost the only thing I see is that my email address, albeit a little garbled, is included with a reference to the envelope (I don't remember the exact wording, and don't have an example in front of me, so I can't be more specific.) there is no easy filter to apply. Presumably the result of us using a different list mailer from the OOo one. From this point of view it would be better if the unsubscribed OP's address were added to the reply-to line, but I can't see that the moderator can do this, since (s)he merely clicks on a link. Plus I, at least, have started sending a mail to the OP of messages I moderate, suggesting that they subscribe. I assume other mods do this, too. //James -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] unsubscribed posters
On Oct 17, 2010, at 19:54 , Charles Marcus wrote: ... I do know that the users/discuss lists volume is way too heavy for an 'average user' to get any benefit from. For example, since checking my email last on Friday evening, there have been 150+ new messages to this list... this would simply terrify anyone who subbed for a simple answer to a simple question. I agree. It terrifies me! OTOH people looking for a simple answer to a simple question shouldn't be in discuss but in users. At the moment users gets about 5 messages a day - more later, of course - but over on OOo, one gets a heavy day with maybe 30 messages and some days with just a couple. I don't think OOo users list is too heavy for a normal user. However, I like the idea of separate lists for separate parts, writer, calc, etc. And finally, are we going over to the wiki as (I think) Jean suggested? //James -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: LibO Beta 2 Writer/Web (Html Document)
On Sun, 2010-10-17, Paul A Norman wrote: Can you send me a copy of the original file to have a look at? Save it as an .odt. Thats part of the problem as well, I used to be able to do that in OOO ... But now while in an HTML document Save As is only offering me these types:- HTML Document (.html) OpenOffice.org 1.0 HTML template (.stw) TEXT (OpenOffice Writer/Web) (.txt) Text Encoded (OpenOffice Writer/Web) (.txt) HTML Document Template (.oth) Sorry to be chiming in here a bit late... In case you haven't found the answer yet, it's in the File Export menu. That's where it is in OOo 3.2.1 also. Whenever you can't find something in Save As, look in Export as well. Yes, I agree that it's a technical difference that makes no sense or difference to ordinary users. --Jean -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] First Marketing Conference Call
Hello everyone, I'm happy to announce the first Marketing Conference Call for LibreOffice and The Document Foundation. It will be on Monday, October 25th, 1700 UTC To convert into your local time zone, see http://www.doodle.com/uiidvmmxcp53r4xs and use the location selector in the page. More details and an agenda to be enhanced by everyone is available at http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/ConfCalls Looking forward to hearing you! Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Very large icons in toolbar
Hi, James and all. At Sun, 3 Oct 2010 17:17:57 +0200, James Wilde wrote: LO 3.3beta Mac OSX 10.6.4 Have just opened a writer document, and the toolbar icons are very much bigger than the ones I have been using in OOo. Have not yet found a way to reduce the size of them, neither by checking intuitive locations nor from the help. Any suggestions? TIA //James I made the Extension. This Extension changes from LibreOffice's icons theme to OpenOffice.org's there. Download site is next: http://extensions.services.openoffice.org/ja/project/ChangeLibOIconsToOOo Regards, M.Kamataki OpenOffice.org Users Group Japan -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] LibO roadmap?
Hi Alexandro, On Sat, 2010-10-16 at 23:10 -0500, Alexandro Colorado wrote: I am very positive about making improvements on things like Writer, however I don't know many people use the bibliographic features. On the opposite I know about many things that many users used, that could be fixed straight away and improve the usability on many users. Sure, we would need to improve common problems, but I'm sure that the bibliographic improvements could help students and researchers to use LibreOffice for their work... which is currently quite hard. One of the points I see there: + Use Zotero for the actual bibliographic work as it seems to be the most advanced tool and already has some LO integration. + Tweak Writer to map Zotero fields to other bibliographic tools fields (mostly EndNote as it seems to be widely used) + Tweak Writer to roundtrip unknown bibliographic fields (already contributed last week). + Remove that old Bibliographic stuff that nobody uses. IMHO there could be small wins here that would help a lot of people to join us (or at least use LibreOffice when they weren't using OOo). Things like being able to change the orientation of an OOo page, without needing to do so many clicks and changing styles and so forth. Sure, We need some nice UI ideas here. The coding shouldn't be too complex as we already have the page styles. Easily implementing the numbering of pages without also a lot of clicking. Same here. Image orientation should also be simpler, with a better way to get it the way the users want to. This one will be much more tricky as we would need to improve the Writer text layout... which could turn to be a nightmare. Think of all those strange layout cases that would bring ;) So I guess my point is let's improve on the users most used features, and go from there to build a better experience for the user. All those are needed, but we need some special care for the research world that has been completely left out by OOo these past years. Regards, -- Cédric Bosdonnat LibreOffice hacker http://documentfoundation.org OOo Eclipse Integration developer http://cedric.bosdonnat.free.fr -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Houston, we have a problem.
Hi, James Wilde schrieb: There is also a forum. How I'm going to find that there is a libreofficeforum.org I don't know. Maybe it's referenced somewhere. I think there was a link on the Contribute page, alongside the link to 'some lists'. However, the forum address should be forum.libreoffice.org, so that one can get there from libreoffice.org, via a link at the top, saying Forum. Well, there have been doubts, if it makes sense to open yet another forum, since the existing forums are all community driven and support OOo and all of its derivates as well. Stefan -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Houston, we have a problem.
On 10/18/2010 03:23 AM, Stefan Weigel wrote: Hi, James Wilde schrieb: There is also a forum. How I'm going to find that there is a libreofficeforum.org I don't know. Maybe it's referenced somewhere. I think there was a link on the Contribute page, alongside the link to 'some lists'. However, the forum address should be forum.libreoffice.org, so that one can get there from libreoffice.org, via a link at the top, saying Forum. Well, there have been doubts, if it makes sense to open yet another forum, since the existing forums are all community driven and support OOo and all of its derivates as well. Stefan In this case, shouldn't there be links to these other forums? Chris Carpenter P.S. Might try having this discussion in the website mailing list -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] [SC] Meeting minutes at the wiki
Hi everyone, just as info and because we need to be transparent - minutes of the recent Steering Committee Meeting are online at http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/Steering_Committee_Meetings we are going to publish all minutes from now on and will have public agenda as well. regards, André -- GRATIS! Movie-FLAT mit über 300 Videos. Jetzt freischalten unter http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/maxdome -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Installing LibreOffice Extensions
On 10/15/2010 07:35 PM, Marc Paré wrote: We may decide to have different targeted versions of LibO for education; business; academic; SOHO; corporate etc. with added value plugins. Rather than creating umpteen different versions of LibO, how about umpteen different collections of extensions? Include the most popular, or theoretically most useful half a dozen or so collections in the installation package, allowing the user which package(s) they want to install. I would also suggest not to drown the new user with too many new extensions (especially with them showing up in the menu bars) +1 # On a semi-related note, my suggestion is for extensions to be off one menu, and not create their own top menu item. (IOW, all extensions are found under Extensions, rather than have a top line menu item, like .riess, toools, Scale Assistent, etc.) I'd also suggest that toolbars be mergable into existing toolbars, rather than create their own new toolbar. jonathon -- No human will see non-list, non-bulk, non-junk email sent to this address. It all gets forwarded to /dev/null -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Houston, we have a problem.
Hi, Chris Carpenter schrieb: Well, there have been doubts, if it makes sense to open yet another forum, since the existing forums are all community driven and support OOo and all of its derivates as well. In this case, shouldn't there be links to these other forums? Sure. But I think, this is work in progress, as it is for linking to documentation and any other form of user support. Generally, I assume the whole website thing is a temporary solution and some people are working intensively on a CMS solution. Stefan -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Basic question about Oracle asking OOo community members to leave
Hello all, thank you for opening this thread. It is not in the intention of anyone -I don't speak officially for the Foundation in this mail- to sit in both projects. It would give a very bad signal, I think, a signal that we either don't believe in LibO and that we want to occupy seats just for the sake of it. So that's not going to happen, rest assured of that: but it's not even been a month since we've gone out in public, remember? :-) Just be patient. On the other hand, I and others do not tolerate being fired by Oracle. Resigning is one thing, being kicked out is another one. Resigning is a logical consequence of our actions that will actually happen soon, being kicked out and accepting it means we acknowledge that Oracle has the right of life and death over the OOo community. Good thing we went to open the Document Foundation then! Cheers, Charles. Le Mon, 18 Oct 2010 01:02:01 -0400, Drew Jensen d...@baseanswers.com a écrit : ... and above all their general opinion about what Ramon said and on how to handle the OOo/Oracle - LibO/TDF relation in the future. Hello Mr. Fioretti, It is my firm and deep belief that, given my experiences and interactions, as limited as they may be in some cases, with all of those _actively_ involved in the development, promotion and support of these software packages having so much more in common with regards to vision of purpose, as opposed to, the differences in vision of implementation process, that it is and will be, only a small matter of time before the groups are pursuing mutually beneficial activities once again. Sincerely, Drew Jensen -- Charles-H. Schulz Membre du Comité exécutif The Document Foundation. -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Houston, we have a problem.
Please, James is right - it is very very difficult as just a User to find your way around - I've said it a couple of times, and it is really really true. Paul On 18 October 2010 22:34, Stefan Weigel stefan.wei...@bildungskreis.org wrote: Hi, Chris Carpenter schrieb: Well, there have been doubts, if it makes sense to open yet another forum, since the existing forums are all community driven and support OOo and all of its derivates as well. In this case, shouldn't there be links to these other forums? Sure. But I think, this is work in progress, as it is for linking to documentation and any other form of user support. Generally, I assume the whole website thing is a temporary solution and some people are working intensively on a CMS solution. Stefan -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: We're on slashdot
On Sun, 2010-10-17 at 20:07 +1000, Jean Hollis Weber wrote: We're on slashdot. I mention this for info purposes only, not suggesting anyone should waste their time responding to the inevitable stupid comments. --Jean http://goo.gl/qmIk Here is my favourite response so far. It made me laugh. Appealed to my evil twin. Or something. --Jean I believe that the LibreOffice team ought to couple their efforts with those of the Electronic Frontier Foundation - and in response to Oracle, brand the forking venture: EFF-off. -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] We're on slashdot
On 10/17/2010 12:00 PM, Gianluca Turconi wrote: So, community budget is now directly managed from Oracle?! Sun, and then Oracle has always tried to manage that was related to OOo. jonathon -- No human will see non-list, non-bulk, non-junk email sent to this address. It all gets forwarded to /dev/null -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Basic question about Oracle asking OOo community members to leave
On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 12:00:56 PM +0200, Charles-H. Schulz (charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org) wrote: On the other hand, I and others do not tolerate being fired by Oracle. Resigning is one thing, being kicked out is another one. Resigning is a logical consequence of our actions that will actually happen soon, being kicked out and accepting it means we acknowledge that Oracle has the right of life and death over the OOo community. Good thing we went to open the Document Foundation then! Charles, reading stuff like this doesn't make me feel like I'm being treated like an adult. Here's what I actually read in the paragraph I quoted: You will not acknowledge that you won't accept anymore the fact that Oracle has right of life and death over the OOo community now, by being kicked out and accepting it. Because you've already acknowledged that you wouldn't accept that right in the very moment when you announced TDF, by creating it. You wanted since the beginning Oracle to fire you, to prove that they are indeed tyrants (which they proved quite well, IMHO) And this is the only reason why such a logical consequence of your action as resigning didn't happen simultaneously to the announcement of TDF. I honestly can't imagine any other obstacle. If I completely misunderstood or missed something, please explain. In any case, as far as I am concerned none of the above means that creating TDF was wrong or that I approve what Oracle did. I am just saying that this side of the whole messy matter doesn't seem to have been managed properly, and that statements like the one above are, uhm, a bit weak? Marco -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Basic question about Oracle asking OOo community members to leave
we don't acknowledge that our community is leaving (and yes, there are and will always be exceptions). That, to me, is a failure, it's a community management failure. So I guess that puts Louis in a difficult position? -- Ian -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] A few initial comments on Beta2
On Sun, 2010-10-17 at 13:54 +0200, Gianluca Turconi wrote: In data 17 ottobre 2010 alle ore 12:57:23, Jean Hollis Weber jeanwe...@gmail.com ha scritto: AG, I've just confirmed: Gianluca's method causes the cursor to do what you want, in OOo but not in LibO. Believe me, it does so in LibO too. At least in Beta2, Italian, Windows Vista HE SP3. I've added my name in User data, only. However, you can also jump to last cursor position by pressing CTRL+F5 key combination on your keyboard. -- Gianluca Turconi It works like it's supposed to on Windows XP SP3 also. But not in Ubuntu. --Jean -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Basic question about Oracle asking OOo community members to leave
The one thing that has always bugged me is. How is it any different having LibreOffice and someone being in both project, and the OracleOffice part. I mean are they not competing projects. Would Oracle not prefer someone to go with there version of OpenOffice.org and pay them for support on it. How then can an employee, someone being paid by Oracle, then sit as a member of the Community Council, or have an active role for the project. I really see no difference in the two at this time. Because of these reasons I believe that no one should resign their OpenOffice.org roles at this time. Stick to what you have been doing and see what happens. I have no intention of putting OpenOffice.org in a negative light. I have been a part of the Community in some way or other for 8+ years and have no reason to do anything negative. -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Basic question about Oracle asking OOo community members to leave
Le Mon, 18 Oct 2010 12:29:37 +0100 (BST), ian.ly...@theingots.org a écrit : we don't acknowledge that our community is leaving (and yes, there are and will always be exceptions). That, to me, is a failure, it's a community management failure. So I guess that puts Louis in a difficult position? He must surely be caught between a rock and a hard place. This being said, I don't think this attitude stems from him. I believe someone else is pulling the strings. -- Charles-H. Schulz Membre du Comité exécutif The Document Foundation. -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Houston, we have a problem.
Hi, Paul A Norman schrieb: Please, James is right I didn´t say he´s wrong. Stefan -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] (Re-Post) Survey|Opinion - LibreOffice Install and Update
On 14/10/10 05:25, Scott Furry wrote: Dear LibreOffice Community, I am Re-Posting the original survey under new title. If you wish to have a discussion about the survey or aspects of someone's responses, I would kindly ask that you start a new thread (please add discussion or similar to the title so as to distinguish the discussion from the survey itself). For those of you who have replied, thank you. I have your answers tucked away and you do not have to fill this out again. For those who have not replied, with a rather timely new beta release, please give thought about what is important to you when it comes to installing/updating LibreOffice. Your responses will help TDF understand its users. I intend to keep this thread going for a couple more weeks. At that time, I'll compile and report back the results. Thanks to all, Scott Furry Original Survey Follows - As suggested, this post is intended to get the opinion of the community about how best to deliver LibreOffice to its users. Given that LibreOffice is an important and viable alternative to paid-for office productivity software, and we all feel strongly and passionately about the direction of LibreOffice, input about the community members' expectations/needs/users is needed. From what we have heard on this topic so far: - Mac users have commented that they do not have an issue with the current installer available on the Mac platform. - Window users indicated that an update mechanism would be great. Some commented that the current Windows installer leaves artifacts behind. The Windows Installer does not detect/remove previous installations properly. - Linux users have discussed vast amounts opinions on packaging in Linux. Some have questioned if distributing packages is a good thing. --- This survey is to gauge the views of the LibreOffice community on the install/update method of LibreOffice. Please voice your opinion so that these considerations may be taken into account when the LibreOffice method of install/update is studied by the developer team. Please *bottom-post* your opinions. How do you expect LibreOffice to be updated? How do you Install/Update LibreOffice? What do you expect when Installing/Updating LibreOffice? Other programs have separate updating programs (iTunes being an example), if it was technically feasible, would having a separate install program for LibreOffice (with updating features) be useful to you? Would having a download and update site, as well as a Unix|Linux package repository site, be of value to you? --- Please note that I am not affiliated with DocumentFoundation. I am like you, a community member who wants to see LibreOffice be very successful. So let's hear what you think folks? Regards, Scott Furry 1.Updates. Linux - Personally there is no problem with the current OOo practice of distro packages and OOo vanilla packages in parallel. This would suit me for LibO. However, it would be helpful for newbies if updates from the distro repositories could be available between distro upgrades - thinking particularly of Ubuntu and derivatives. Updates.Windows - I have no problem with the current OOo practice, however a decent installer and, perhaps the ability to carry out partial updates/upgrades would be helpful. 2. I install install/upgrade the vanilla versions for linux (ubuntu) and use this in parallel with the distro version (OOo). When LibO goes to 3.3.0 final I'll probably remove the distro version. 3. Separate install/updating program - Haven't thought about this - could be nice but would want to know a few more details first. 4.Download Update site in addition to a linux distro repository site - I regard this as a must - see my answer to 1., above. Hope these answers add usefully to the sum total of knowledge being acumulated! Terry W -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Basic question about Oracle asking OOo community members to leave
On 2010-10-17 10:48 PM, Ramon Sole wrote: Both communities will be able to collaborate in tons of things, but the project leaders can't share responsabilities in both projects. If so, why to have two Communities? I don't think this this is correct in the case of OOo - while it is of course fine for LibO to continue syncing code changes from OOo, since Oracle is continuing Sun's requirement of copyright assignment etc, it will be impossible for any LibO code to make it back-stream into the OOo code base. Or am I wrong? -- Best regards, Charles -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Houston, we have a problem.
Hi, 2010/10/18 Charles Marcus cmar...@media-brokers.com: On 2010-10-18 3:38 AM, James Wilde wrote: Action point 5: Let the list system fade out, or at least move it down the priorities for user support. I know there are people in here who live in the Unix world - I did myself once - and use text-only email readers, and who therefore prefer mailing lists, but ordinary users don't like them. So keep and monitor the lists, but plug the forum. Best would be to find some way to integrate a decent forum platform with a decent mail list manager... I believe that Mailman3 will support such a beast, but I haven't had much luck finding anything other than a lot of threads about custom plugins and such... yes, indeed, Mailman does support something like a mailinglist-forum-bridge. I am also involved in the new Mageia distribution and one of the participants there has for test purposes created such a forum-mailinglist gateway. You can read his introduction to the forum and the link to it in this email: http://www.mail-archive.com/mageia-disc...@mageia.org/msg01602.html I'm sure he would be willing to help out a bit - if asked nicely. ;) Sigrid -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Houston, we have a problem.
On 2010-10-18 10:07 AM, Sigrid Carrera wrote: yes, indeed, Mailman does support something like a mailinglist-forum-bridge. I am also involved in the new Mageia distribution and one of the participants there has for test purposes created such a forum-mailinglist gateway. You can read his introduction to the forum and the link to it in this email: http://www.mail-archive.com/mageia-disc...@mageia.org/msg01602.html I'm sure he would be willing to help out a bit - if asked nicely. ;) Looks interesting, thanks Sigrid... :) -- Best regards, Charles -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Houston, we have a problem.
All of you folks that are running this show had better start thinking about what the USERS need's are, or pretty soon you are going to turn around and find that most of your users have left. I have been using OOo for almost as long as it has been available and have told many people about it. But right now I am TOTALLY CONFUSED ABOUT JUST EXACTLY WHAT, WHERE, WHY, WHEN, AND HOW of anything about OOo versus LibreOffice, or whatever the hell it is. All concerns seem to be around the foundation, not the software and its users The TDF exists for the development of the software, AND the users of the software, and it really appears to me the folks running the TDF have completely lost sight of that!!! Practically everything on the TDF web page is about people; hardly anything there about the software and what is taking place as OOo moves to LibreOffice - I guess that is what is happening??? I am what I think would be referred to as a typical user - someone who found an excellent Microsoft Office replacement and enjoys using it. And has been thankful for the assistance, fixes, and upgrades that have been available along the way. But, as I said, I am sitting here, out in the country outside a small town in Texas, and am totally confused about just where everything is You folks need to get all your Aggies in a row, and get back to supporting your users!!! Roxy Robinson - a totally confused 68 year old user Please, James is right - it is very very difficult as just a User to find your way around - I've said it a couple of times, and it is really really true. Paul On 18 October 2010 22:34, Stefan Weigel stefan.wei...@bildungskreis.org wrote: Hi, Chris Carpenter schrieb: Well, there have been doubts, if it makes sense to open yet another forum, since the existing forums are all community driven and support OOo and all of its derivates as well. In this case, shouldn't there be links to these other forums? Sure. But I think, this is work in progress, as it is for linking to documentation and any other form of user support. Generally, I assume the whole website thing is a temporary solution and some people are working intensively on a CMS solution. Stefan -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: LibO roadmap?
Hi everyone, Marc Paré wrote: Thanks for the note. Yes, it does sound that different tools are needed depending on the field of study. There should almost be a mailist dedicated to LibO use for academia where we could collect the data needed to make LibO a great tool for academia This list comes from my experience (When I wrote my dissertation in the humanities), I hope this is appropriate: * Bibliographic Tools. http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Bibliographic/OOoBib_Functional_Requirements http://openoffice.2283327.n4.nabble.com/JabRef-OpenOffice-integration-td2813042.html#a2813042 In addition to the bibliography tools. * Improvements to the Alphabetical Indexes. http://www.openoffice.org/nonav/issues/showattachment.cgi/71959/Alphabetical_Index.pdf Moreover, many contracts require that authors act as their own indexers. e.g. http://www.cambridge.org/aus/information/aca_index.htm * Improvements to the footnotes. e.g. http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=23997 http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=29680 http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=18326 http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=13308 http://www.oooforum.org/forum/viewtopic.phtml?t=62243 * Improvements to the Table of Contents. e.g. http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=27377 http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=90841 * Don't add space between paragraphs of the same style e.g. http://www.oooforum.org/forum/viewtopic.phtml?t=46757 http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=34199 http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=43220 This option is very popular with users of MsWord. * The Holy Grail of the writers: Outline View. http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=3959 What is your opinion? Regards, Jacques -- View this message in context: http://unofficial-document-foundation-mail-archive.969070.n3.nabble.com/LibO-roadmap-tp1667731p1726161.html Sent from the Discuss mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: LibO roadmap?
Le 2010-10-18 11:51, Mounier Jacques a écrit : Hi everyone, * Improvements to the footnotes. ... I actually like them with 1[tab]TextOfNote, but I don't mind more flexibility. * Don't add space between paragraphs of the same style There is one fairly simple solution, which is to add space BEFORE paragraphs rather than after them. Ever since Word 6 I have always defined styles that way and it solves most problems : I put more space before headers, only 6-pt space before normal paragraphs and 2 or 3-pt space before bullets, and I seldom correct these values. Which brings a few other suggestions: - Program default styles with some space before the paragraph and no space after them. - Program less default styles. - Allow one to define default tabs with any value: right now it is impossible to define them at less than 1.18 picas (or 0.2 inches or 0,5 cm). Using that default makes hanging indents very wide indeed. - Make the whole process of defining hanging indents much simpler. - Solve existing bugs in character style sheets. Finally, one improvement in marketing is to better explain style sheets and especially what to do with hanging bullets and numbering. -- Michel Gagnon Montréal (Québec, Canada) -- http://mgagnon.net -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Houston, we have a problem.
Hi Þann mán 18.okt 2010 15:08, skrifaði Roxy Robinson: All of you folks that are running this show had better start thinking about what the USERS need's are, or pretty soon you are going to turn around and find that most of your users have left. I have been using OOo for almost as long as it has been available and have told many people about it. But right now I am TOTALLY CONFUSED ABOUT JUST EXACTLY WHAT, WHERE, WHY, WHEN, AND HOW of anything about OOo versus LibreOffice, or whatever the hell it is. Please don't shout, we get the message. Technically there are not yet any normal LibreOffice users; there's not yet any official release, only a beta. But I totally agree with the concerns about future layout of user-services and feedback. These should be addressed quickly and be in place before the official release, but it's critical to organise those efforts to avoid duplicate work and loss of focus. I think there should be a dedicated LO-team for implementing and organising help for users, working closely with other teams like the documentation- and web/wiki-teams. Maybe a sort of user-ombudsmen which would be in charge of scrutinising things like web-navigation, UI-navigation, helpcontent etc. - for the benefit of their clients; plain users. (maybe too dramatic here - sorry) All concerns seem to be around the foundation, not the software and its users The TDF exists for the development of the software, AND the users of the software, and it really appears to me the folks running the TDF have completely lost sight of that!!! Practically everything on the TDF web page is about people; hardly anything there about the software and what is taking place as OOo moves to LibreOffice - I guess that is what is happening??? I am what I think would be referred to as a typical user - someone who found an excellent Microsoft Office replacement and enjoys using it. And has been thankful for the assistance, fixes, and upgrades that have been available along the way. But, as I said, I am sitting here, out in the country outside a small town in Texas, and am totally confused about just where everything is You folks need to get all your Aggies in a row, and get back to supporting your users!!! Roxy Robinson - a totally confused 68 year old user You just made it from being a totally confused 68 year old user to being a participant in the project - thank you ;-) Please, James is right - it is very very difficult as just a User to find your way around - I've said it a couple of times, and it is really really true. I think that it would be beneficial to launch a new thread on user-services, navigation and user-feedback in order to find a good structure and basic organisation. Even if things like wikis have for nature to auto-organise themselves, a good basic structure can speed up creation of their content. Just some thoughts, Sveinn í Felli Paul On 18 October 2010 22:34, Stefan Weigelstefan.wei...@bildungskreis.org wrote: Hi, Chris Carpenter schrieb: Well, there have been doubts, if it makes sense to open yet another forum, since the existing forums are all community driven and support OOo and all of its derivates as well. In this case, shouldn't there be links to these other forums? Sure. But I think, this is work in progress, as it is for linking to documentation and any other form of user support. Generally, I assume the whole website thing is a temporary solution and some people are working intensively on a CMS solution. Stefan -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] LibO roadmap?
Le 2010-10-18 04:16, Cedric Bosdonnat a écrit : Hi Alexandro, On Sat, 2010-10-16 at 23:10 -0500, Alexandro Colorado wrote: I am very positive about making improvements on things like Writer, however I don't know many people use the bibliographic features. On the opposite I know about many things that many users used, that could be fixed straight away and improve the usability on many users. Sure, we would need to improve common problems, but I'm sure that the bibliographic improvements could help students and researchers to use LibreOffice for their work... which is currently quite hard. One of the points I see there: + Use Zotero for the actual bibliographic work as it seems to be the most advanced tool and already has some LO integration. + Tweak Writer to map Zotero fields to other bibliographic tools fields (mostly EndNote as it seems to be widely used) + Tweak Writer to roundtrip unknown bibliographic fields (already contributed last week). + Remove that old Bibliographic stuff that nobody uses. IMHO there could be small wins here that would help a lot of people to join us (or at least use LibreOffice when they weren't using OOo). Things like being able to change the orientation of an OOo page, without needing to do so many clicks and changing styles and so forth. Sure, We need some nice UI ideas here. The coding shouldn't be too complex as we already have the page styles. Easily implementing the numbering of pages without also a lot of clicking. Same here. Image orientation should also be simpler, with a better way to get it the way the users want to. This one will be much more tricky as we would need to improve the Writer text layout... which could turn to be a nightmare. Think of all those strange layout cases that would bring ;) So I guess my point is let's improve on the users most used features, and go from there to build a better experience for the user. All those are needed, but we need some special care for the research world that has been completely left out by OOo these past years. Regards, Thanks everyone for your remarks. I am gathering these points on the marketing list under two different threads: -- [libreoffice-marketing] LibO in Academia -- [libreoffice-marketing] LibO in Education (JK-High School and NOT post grad.university/college)post grad.university/college) The intent is to gather user thoughts about usage in these two arenas. If we are to target these two groups, LibO could perhaps tweak the plugins or even the LibO core itself to suit these users. I am interested in the process of marketing and improving the LibO suite for the two categories. Feel free to contribute to these two discussions on the marketing mailist. I would be interested in having your comments there. Marc # market...@libreoffice.org: Mailing list for marketing and promoting LibreOffice Subscription: marketing+subscr...@libreoffice.org Digest subscription: marketing+subscribe-dig...@libreoffice.org Archives: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/marketing/ Mail-Archive.com: http://www.mail-archive.com/market...@libreoffice.org/ GMANE: http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.libreoffice.marketing -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Question...from Go-OOo or OOo
With all the fork discussion going on, I figured I'd just as well as this one too. Since the announcement, I've heard a number of people (via comments on Slashdot and OSNews at the very least) suggest that LibreOffice is a fork of Go-OOo instead of OOo (realizing that Go-OOo is derived from OOo). Now, reading the documents you all put up on TDF's website[1], I have answered that it seems more like a fork from OOo that accepted the Go-OOo patches. It would be great to get some clarity on that - especially in the FAQ section on TDF's website - if only just to be able to say the right thing. TIA, Ben [1] Specifically I've quoted this FAQ entry: Q: What does this announcement mean to other derivatives of OpenOffice.org? A: We want The Document Foundation to be open to code contributions from as many people as possible. We are delighted to announce that the enhancements produced by the Go-OOo team will be merged into LibreOffice, effective immediately. We hope that others will follow suit. -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Android
On 10/16/2010 04:58 PM, Ian wrote: Which of the 200+ variants of Android should be targeted? All those running on devices that are likely to be used in general productivity. That would be all 200+ variants of Android then. Yes. As I said implementing a web based version of LO could be the easiest solution but I doubt that 200+ variants will persist if it means re-writing apps for each one. OOo currently runs on many variants of Linux. -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] mailing list digest mode functionality
Below is an example of how the digest mode appears using the 'reply' e-mail function: On 18/10/2010, discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org wrote: Topics (messages 1671 through 1700): [tdf-discuss] We're on slashdot 1671 - Per Eriksson pereriks...@openoffice.org [tdf-discuss] Please embed dictionaries in Danish lang-pack and install 1672 - Andrea Pescetti pesce...@openoffice.org [tdf-discuss] We're on slashdot 1673 - André Schnabel andre.schna...@gmx.net [tdf-discuss] We're on slashdot 1674 - Ian ian.ly...@theingots.org [tdf-discuss] A copy of MSOffice 1675 - Carlos Jose Lenarts Ramis goda...@gmail.com [tdf-discuss] Please embed dictionaries in Danish lang-pack and install 1676 - Andras Timar tima...@gmail.com [tdf-discuss] why LibO? 1677 - Caio Tiago Oliveira cai...@gmail.com [tdf-discuss] Please embed dictionaries in Danish lang-pack and install 1678 - Andrea Pescetti pesce...@openoffice.org [tdf-discuss] why LibO? 1679 - fyva mene...@bk.ru [tdf-discuss] A copy of MSOffice 1680 - David Filskov da...@filskov.dk [tdf-discuss] Please embed dictionaries in Danish lang-pack and install 1681 - Andras Timar tima...@gmail.com [tdf-discuss] unsubscribed posters 1682 - Rictec ric...@netcabo.pt [tdf-discuss] Don't make the mistake of the pigs 1683 - Paul A Norman paul.a.nor...@gmail.com [tdf-discuss] A Map of Bibliographic systems? was: LibO roadmap? 1684 - Paul A Norman paul.a.nor...@gmail.com [tdf-discuss] LibO Beta 2 miss-reporting version? 1685 - Paul A Norman paul.a.nor...@gmail.com [tdf-discuss] Re: LibO Beta 2 miss-reporting version? 1686 - Paul A Norman paul.a.nor...@gmail.com LibO Install/Update ( was [tdf-discuss] Automatic Updates) 1687 - Paul A Norman paul.a.nor...@gmail.com [tdf-discuss] Basic question about Oracle asking OOo community members to leave 1688 - Ramon Sole ramon.s...@opscons.com [tdf-discuss] Basic question about Oracle asking OOo community members to leave 1689 - M. Fioretti mfiore...@nexaima.net [tdf-discuss] Basic question about Oracle asking OOo community members to leave 1690 - Drew Jensen d...@baseanswers.com [tdf-discuss] We're on slashdot 1691 - Cor Nouws oo...@nouenoff.nl [tdf-discuss] Basic question about Oracle asking OOo community members to leave 1692 - Graham Lauder yori...@openoffice.org [tdf-discuss] unsubscribed posters 1693 - James Wilde james.wi...@sunde-wilde.com [tdf-discuss] unsubscribed posters 1694 - James Wilde james.wi...@sunde-wilde.com [tdf-discuss] Houston, we have a problem. 1695 - James Wilde james.wi...@sunde-wilde.com [tdf-discuss] Re: LibO Beta 2 Writer/Web (Html Document) 1696 - Jean Hollis Weber jeanwe...@gmail.com [tdf-discuss] First Marketing Conference Call 1697 - Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org [tdf-discuss] Very large icons in toolbar 1698 - Masahisa Kamataki kamat...@gmail.com [tdf-discuss] LibO roadmap? 1699 - Cedric Bosdonnat cedric.bosdonnat@free.fr [tdf-discuss] Houston, we have a problem. 1700 - Stefan Weigel stefan.wei...@bildungskreis.org This is not good compared to others such as postgresql (or even openoffice documentation) mailing lists. The start of each digest mode message should include guidance such as: please change the subject to something more meaningful than Re: Digest of Is is impossible to use a web browser search function (ctrl f and ctrl g) to navigate quickly to a message where the subject is of interest. For example the digest mail user should be able to navigate directly from the content list which includes LibO roadmap to the section of the digest mode message containing that message. This mailing list style also does not appear to show the standard mail header information of each message. Please consider change to make digest mode more convenient to the user. Thank you. documentfoundat...@conference.jabber.org libreoff...@conference.jabber.org -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: LibO roadmap?
Le 2010-10-18 12:15, Michel Gagnon a écrit : Le 2010-10-18 11:51, Mounier Jacques a écrit : Hi everyone, * Improvements to the footnotes. ... I actually like them with 1[tab]TextOfNote, but I don't mind more flexibility. * Don't add space between paragraphs of the same style There is one fairly simple solution, which is to add space BEFORE paragraphs rather than after them. Ever since Word 6 I have always defined styles that way and it solves most problems : I put more space before headers, only 6-pt space before normal paragraphs and 2 or 3-pt space before bullets, and I seldom correct these values. Which brings a few other suggestions: - Program default styles with some space before the paragraph and no space after them. - Program less default styles. - Allow one to define default tabs with any value: right now it is impossible to define them at less than 1.18 picas (or 0.2 inches or 0,5 cm). Using that default makes hanging indents very wide indeed. - Make the whole process of defining hanging indents much simpler. - Solve existing bugs in character style sheets. Finally, one improvement in marketing is to better explain style sheets and especially what to do with hanging bullets and numbering. Yes, explaining style sheets and the use of style sheets have been the bane of ALL users across all uses. I wish there were a better way of working it out so that setting these up were more intuitive. But, once learned, style sheets are a powerful device to use. I am not at that point yet and have very little use so far to use/modify style sheets. I believe this has always been on the LibO list of request and I doubt that there will ever be a great explanation, which is where the problem lies. If you can't explain it in a very short and concise manner then the process is too difficult. I alway go by the 3 steps rule. Most individuals can retain to a maximum of 3 steps after which it becomes more difficult to remember (try it yourself to see). The style sheets code/documentation should take this into account. If the steps to modify/create a style sheet are too numerous, then users will not use them, and worse, will complain about it. This, regardless of how a terrific asset it is to the suite. Marc -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: LibO roadmap?
Le 2010-10-18 11:51, Mounier Jacques a écrit : Hi everyone, Marc Paré wrote: Thanks for the note. Yes, it does sound that different tools are needed depending on the field of study. There should almost be a mailist dedicated to LibO use for academia where we could collect the data needed to make LibO a great tool for academia This list comes from my experience (When I wrote my dissertation in the humanities), I hope this is appropriate: * Bibliographic Tools. http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Bibliographic/OOoBib_Functional_Requirements http://openoffice.2283327.n4.nabble.com/JabRef-OpenOffice-integration-td2813042.html#a2813042 In addition to the bibliography tools. * Improvements to the Alphabetical Indexes. http://www.openoffice.org/nonav/issues/showattachment.cgi/71959/Alphabetical_Index.pdf Moreover, many contracts require that authors act as their own indexers. e.g. http://www.cambridge.org/aus/information/aca_index.htm * Improvements to the footnotes. e.g. http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=23997 http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=29680 http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=18326 http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=13308 http://www.oooforum.org/forum/viewtopic.phtml?t=62243 * Improvements to the Table of Contents. e.g. http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=27377 http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=90841 * Don't add space between paragraphs of the same style e.g. http://www.oooforum.org/forum/viewtopic.phtml?t=46757 http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=34199 http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=43220 This option is very popular with users of MsWord. * The Holy Grail of the writers: Outline View. http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=3959 What is your opinion? Regards, Jacques Great Jacques, this is great! Could you add this to the discussion thread LibO in Academia on the marketing mailist? I am collecting exactly this data with the hope of zeroing on the assets needed to win over the academic crowd. You will have to join the marketing list to do this. # market...@libreoffice.org: Mailing list for marketing and promoting LibreOffice Subscription: marketing+subscr...@libreoffice.org Digest subscription: marketing+subscribe-dig...@libreoffice.org Archives: http://www.libreoffice.org/lists/marketing/ Mail-Archive.com: http://www.mail-archive.com/market...@libreoffice.org/ GMANE: http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.libreoffice.marketing Marc -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Anlauf für PM LibreOffic e 3.3 - Grundfragen
Le 2010-10-18 06:12, Johannes A. Bodwing a écrit : Hallo, es geht darum, die PM für den finalen Release der LO 3.3 hinzubekommen. Dazu versuche ich das Grundgerüst klar zu bekommen, denn während die PM für OOo 3.3. quasi mit dem Aspekt Fortsetzung arbeiten könnte, wäre es für LO eine Art Neustart (Reset?); d.h. als Kernaspekte für die PM wäre deshalb vielleicht zu beachten: ~ LO als Software vorstellen (was kriegt der Nutzer mit der Installation von LO überhaupt auf seinen Rechner?) + evtl. die Zielsetzung dahinter; ~ LO im Zshang mit OOo darstellen (daß es keine Trennung ist, sondern Ergänzung, Verbesserung der Möglichkeiten etc.); ~ die Features (wo steht dazu Verwendbares in leicht verständlicher Form?) + evtl. was es in OOo nicht gibt, bzw. was/wo die Unterschiede sind; ~ evtl. auch etwas versteckt die Motivation in den Text reinpacken, damit noch mehr Leute mitmachen; ~ letztlich müßte ganz stark der Nutzen für die User rüberkommen, den sie haben, wenn sie LO runterladen, statt OOo (sonst würde ja die LO-Version keinen wirklichen Sinn machen, denke ich mal); ~ LO ist nicht identisch mit OOo, also nicht die 1:1-Fortsetzung von OOo, basiert aber massiv auf OOo, ist also auch nichts komplett Neues; wie grenzt man da sauber ab oder ergänzt oder sonstwie? Gruß, Johannes Thanks for the comments Johannes, but this is an english mailist, could you please send this back in English? Marc -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] [SC] Meeting minutes at the wiki
Le 2010-10-18 09:58, Andre Schnabel a écrit : Hi, Von: Daniel Veillardveill...@redhat.com Excellent ! IMHO You're heading in the right direction :-) I would suggest to create a blog aggegator (planet.documentfoundation.org) and post both (or just links) to try to reach a larger audience. as the planet is actually in place - you suggest to blog the minutes in parallel? .. well .. I think, we can do this. regards, André Are you thinking of posting to different sites? I would prefer if the minutes were posted only on one site. People will get used to going to that particular site. I also would prefer to see it on the planet. It just seems like the most logical place. Marc -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Houston, we have a problem.
Le 2010-10-18 10:07, Sigrid Carrera a écrit : Hi, 2010/10/18 Charles Marcuscmar...@media-brokers.com: On 2010-10-18 3:38 AM, James Wilde wrote: Action point 5: Let the list system fade out, or at least move it down the priorities for user support. I know there are people in here who live in the Unix world - I did myself once - and use text-only email readers, and who therefore prefer mailing lists, but ordinary users don't like them. So keep and monitor the lists, but plug the forum. Best would be to find some way to integrate a decent forum platform with a decent mail list manager... I believe that Mailman3 will support such a beast, but I haven't had much luck finding anything other than a lot of threads about custom plugins and such... yes, indeed, Mailman does support something like a mailinglist-forum-bridge. I am also involved in the new Mageia distribution and one of the participants there has for test purposes created such a forum-mailinglist gateway. You can read his introduction to the forum and the link to it in this email: http://www.mail-archive.com/mageia-disc...@mageia.org/msg01602.html I'm sure he would be willing to help out a bit - if asked nicely. ;) Sigrid Thanks Sigrid, I was exactly going to recommend the same thing. I am also part of the Mageia marketing team and a lot of the mailist/forums problems are similar for both groups. It may be a good idea to team up with the Mageia people who are in charge and compare notes just for the sake of expediency. Marc -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Houston, we have a problem.
Please don't shout, we get the message. If I had been shouting the entire message would have been all caps. I was using all caps for EMPHASIS! Technically there are not yet any normal LibreOffice users; there's not yet any official release, only a beta. Is this not hoped to be a move of all the current OOo users to become users of LO? If so, then there is already millions of normal users. But I totally agree with the concerns about future layout of user-services and feedback. Rather than having an opening web page that seems to be mostly concerned with introducing people and their qualifications, missions and goals, there should be more information about what has taken place in regard to the WHAT, WHERE, WHY, WHEN, AND HOW of this move from OOo to LO. Are both continuing? It sounds that way in some of the discussions, with some members on both groups. There also needs to be more and better installation instructions. Does LO go over OOo? Do they install separately? Does the installation of LO create a directory within its installation called program_old, like my last upgrade installation of OOo did? I believe the cart is out there, not before the horse, but completely without a horse! You just made it from being a totally confused 68 year old user to being a participant in the project - thank you ;-) I have participated in the project, off and on, every since the day I started using OOo about 9 years ago. But I AM still a totally confused 68 year old user. Roxy Robinson -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] [SC] Meeting minutes at the wiki
Hi, Am 18.10.2010 19:13, schrieb Marc Paré: as the planet is actually in place - you suggest to blog the minutes in parallel? .. well .. I think, we can do this. Are you thinking of posting to different sites? No minutes should stay at the wiki, but we can announce the availabity through several ressources. I would prefer if the minutes were posted only on one site. People will get used to going to that particular site. I also would prefer to see it on the planet. It just seems like the most logical place. Yes - sounds logical. But I feel we would need some kind of secretary post all this stuff and keep people informed (I know, Michael Meeks will hate me for this :) ). Anyway - I'll look, if we can/should have a Steering Committee blog for all SC members (would be confusing, if SC-minutes are posted at different blogs, even if they are all visible at the palanet - imho). André -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Canadian Marketing Team partners with US Marketing Team
I would just like to inform the list that the Canadian Marketing Team has partnered with the US Marketing Team and will be participating as junior partners in the US marketing mailist. We would like to thank the US Marketing Team for their generous offer of help and sharing of resources. We are most appreciative of this generous gesture and look forward to working in partnership with them. For the Canadians on the list who would be interested in helping out with the marketing of the LibO suite in Canada, feel free to join the US Marketing list. We would be most happy to see you on the list. Marc Paré Canadian Marketing Team Member * market...@us.libreoffice.org: Marketing in the US * Subscription: marketing+subscr...@us.libreoffice.org * Digest subscription: marketing+subscribe-dig...@us.libreoffice.org * Archives: http://us.libreoffice.org/lists/marketing/ * Mail-Archive.com: http://www.mail-archive.com/market...@us.libreoffice.org/ * GMANE: http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.libreoffice.marketing.us -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] [SC] Meeting minutes at the wiki
Le 2010-10-18 13:29, André Schnabel a écrit : Hi, Am 18.10.2010 19:13, schrieb Marc Paré: as the planet is actually in place - you suggest to blog the minutes in parallel? .. well .. I think, we can do this. Are you thinking of posting to different sites? No minutes should stay at the wiki, but we can announce the availabity through several ressources. I would prefer if the minutes were posted only on one site. People will get used to going to that particular site. I also would prefer to see it on the planet. It just seems like the most logical place. Yes - sounds logical. But I feel we would need some kind of secretary post all this stuff and keep people informed (I know, Michael Meeks will hate me for this :) ). Anyway - I'll look, if we can/should have a Steering Committee blog for all SC members (would be confusing, if SC-minutes are posted at different blogs, even if they are all visible at the palanet - imho). André Hi André I don't think that we really need a blog for each member, but perhaps just one for the SC meeting minutes. Might be less of an effort than to arrange a blog for everyone. Hmmm ... is that what you meant by needing a secretary? Marc -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Installing LibreOffice Extensions
Le 2010-10-18 05:04, jonathon a écrit : On 10/15/2010 07:35 PM, Marc Paré wrote: We may decide to have different targeted versions of LibO for education; business; academic; SOHO; corporate etc. with added value plugins. Rather than creating umpteen different versions of LibO, how about umpteen different collections of extensions? Include the most popular, or theoretically most useful half a dozen or so collections in the installation package, allowing the user which package(s) they want to install. Yes, this is what I suggested. You are just using a different way of explaining it. I would also suggest not to drown the new user with too many new extensions (especially with them showing up in the menu bars) +1 # On a semi-related note, my suggestion is for extensions to be off one menu, and not create their own top menu item. (IOW, all extensions are found under Extensions, rather than have a top line menu item, like .riess, toools, Scale Assistent, etc.) I like this idea. We have to be careful of crowding up the toolbar though. But I think most users, even those who would have migrated from MSOffcie, would be able to work with this. Nice idea. I'd also suggest that toolbars be mergable into existing toolbars, rather than create their own new toolbar. Doesn't it do this already? jonathon Marc -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: We're on slashdot
On 18/10/10 11:07, Jean Hollis Weber wrote: On Sun, 2010-10-17 at 20:07 +1000, Jean Hollis Weber wrote: We're on slashdot. I mention this for info purposes only, not suggesting anyone should waste their time responding to the inevitable stupid comments. --Jean http://goo.gl/qmIk Here is my favourite response so far. It made me laugh. Appealed to my evil twin. Or something. --Jean I believe that the LibreOffice team ought to couple their efforts with those of the Electronic Frontier Foundation - and in response to Oracle, brand the forking venture: EFF-off. +1 I guess we share the evil twin genetic code ;-) -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Houston, we have a problem.
On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 09:25:52 -0400, Charles Marcus cmar...@media-brokers.com wrote: Best would be to find some way to integrate a decent forum platform with a decent mail list manager... The nabble forums are rather easy to integrate in a website and provide seamless integration with a mailinglist. TDF mail archives are for example here: http://unofficial-document-foundation-mail-archive.969070.n3.nabble.com/ Sebastian -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Houston, we have a problem.
On Mon, 2010-10-18 at 21:15 +0200, Sebastian Spaeth wrote: On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 09:25:52 -0400, Charles Marcus cmar...@media-brokers.com wrote: Best would be to find some way to integrate a decent forum platform with a decent mail list manager... The nabble forums are rather easy to integrate in a website and provide seamless integration with a mailinglist. TDF mail archives are for example here: http://unofficial-document-foundation-mail-archive.969070.n3.nabble.com/ I have a bit of a mashup page started with the nabbel archives embedded and google custom search box for the main site, the wiki and the mails - just putting in a final search feature for the extended oo.o forums The work in progress is found at http://oucv.org/tdf.html Sebastian -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Houston, we have a problem.
On 2010-10-18 3:15 PM, Sebastian Spaeth wrote: On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 09:25:52 -0400, Charles Marcus cmar...@media-brokers.com wrote: Best would be to find some way to integrate a decent forum platform with a decent mail list manager... The nabble forums are rather easy to integrate in a website and provide seamless integration with a mailinglist. TDF mail archives are for example here: http://unofficial-document-foundation-mail-archive.969070.n3.nabble.com/ Interesting... Maybe this, along with some decent search capability - including some pre-filters that the user could select, ie, 'Writer', 'Calc', etc, to help them narrow their search, and lastly with some kind of automated feedback mechanism for non-subscriber postings similar to how the nntp gateway works (you post, you get an email confirmation, once you confirm, you're allowed to post from that email address for a limited time) would be the way to go... Wish I could help with the heavy lifting, but sadly ianap... -- Best regards, Charles -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: Re: [tdf-discuss] Basic question about Oracle asking OOo community members to leave
Hello *, maybe the problem is OOo has the fear that TDF people with responsabilities in OOo use the OOo resources in favor of TDF? I'm not talking about Charles, but i.e in the Spanish Communitiy the Project Leader has closed the subscription to the OOo spanish mailing lists with the label Migrating lists to TDF, and you can only easily subscribe to the TDF lists. What would you do if you were in charge of the OOo project after such things? I expect the most of TDF, but we should understand the position of the OOo leader and other people in Oracle. And please, guys, let's stop calling the people that didn't decide to move to TDF the Oracle bad guys. There's a lot of people in OOo that doesn't work for Oracle. And I met some of the Oracle bad guys during those years and they're nice guys. Furthermore, some of them are the true builders of what OpenOffice and even LibreOffice is now. They deserve, at least, my respect. And they're need as most of us a salary to live, salary payed before by Sun but now payed by Oracle. Best Greetings, Ra Charles-H. Schulz wrote: Hello Marco, Le Mon, 18 Oct 2010 12:58:14 +0200, M. Fioretti mfiore...@nexaima.net a écrit : On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 12:00:56 PM +0200, Charles-H. Schulz (charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org) wrote: On the other hand, I and others do not tolerate being fired by Oracle. Resigning is one thing, being kicked out is another one. Resigning is a logical consequence of our actions that will actually happen soon, being kicked out and accepting it means we acknowledge that Oracle has the right of life and death over the OOo community. Good thing we went to open the Document Foundation then! Charles, reading stuff like this doesn't make me feel like I'm being treated like an adult. Here's what I actually read in the paragraph I quoted: You will not acknowledge that you won't accept anymore the fact that Oracle has right of life and death over the OOo community now, by being kicked out and accepting it. Because you've already acknowledged that you wouldn't accept that right in the very moment when you announced TDF, by creating it. You wanted since the beginning Oracle to fire you, to prove that they are indeed tyrants (which they proved quite well, IMHO) And this is the only reason why such a logical consequence of your action as resigning didn't happen simultaneously to the announcement of TDF. I honestly can't imagine any other obstacle. If I completely misunderstood or missed something, please explain. In any case, as far as I am concerned none of the above means that creating TDF was wrong or that I approve what Oracle did. I am just saying that this side of the whole messy matter doesn't seem to have been managed properly, and that statements like the one above are, uhm, a bit weak? What I may have not written clearly, is 2 things: -first and foremost we always kept the door open for Oracle. If we had wanted to do a fork, we would have indeed resigned almost on the same day I think. Now the behaviour of Oracle being what it is, the situation is being clarified, so to speak. -in French we say that there is l'art et la manière. You can send me a private message, as an Oracle employee, asking me : so Charles, when are you guys going away? but if you send a public message kicking us out on vague grounds, ignoring our very own guidelines, that's very different. So of course, I'm not trying to say that I'm surprised that such consequences of our action happen, and I was not trying to be disingenuous or not treating you like an adult in my message. But what I'm saying is that we were surprised by the tone, the way, the brutality of Oracle's answer, which seems unnecessary, and too early. We have not even started to talk and we're being thrown out? Again, our doors are open, but Oracle, through that move, does not seem to be interested and is behaving in a rude and violent way. Also of interest: I am very surprised that Oracle, or rather the Oracle's employees contributing to OOo, are chasing us out as if we were 5 idiots. Let's not talk numbers here, but let's just say that it would be a conservative estimate if I said that 80 percent of the NLC and the QA project (and I'm not talking about the others) are moving to TDF. So Oracle has either become blind on what's going on on their mailing lists, bugtrackers and commits or it is effectively saying: we don't acknowledge that our community is leaving (and yes, there are and will always be exceptions). That, to me, is a failure, it's a community management failure. Hope that helps, Charles. -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
Re: [tdf-discuss] Houston, we have a problem.
On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 04:12:35PM +, Sveinn � Felli wrote: .humongous snip.. I think that it would be beneficial to launch a new thread on user-services, navigation and user-feedback in order to find a good structure and basic organisation. Even if things like wikis have for nature to auto-organise themselves, a good basic structure can speed up creation of their content. I thought there was a users list. -- Bob Holtzman Key ID: 8D549279 If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] First Marketing Conference Call
El 18/10/10 04:55, Florian Effenberger escribió: Hello everyone, I'm happy to announce the first Marketing Conference Call for LibreOffice and The Document Foundation. It will be on Monday, October 25th, 1700 UTC It's possible attend at this conference? How can be participate of marketing team. -- ~~~ Prof. Román H. Gelbort http://www.piensalibre.com.ar Por 10 años con una oficina Open... desde ahora también LIBRE ~~~ -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: Re: [tdf-discuss] Basic question about Oracle asking OOo community members to leave
On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 3:32 PM, Ramon Sole ramon.s...@opscons.com wrote: And please, guys, let's stop calling the people that didn't decide to move to TDF the Oracle bad guys. There's a lot of people in OOo that doesn't work for Oracle. And I met some of the Oracle bad guys during those years and they're nice guys. Furthermore, some of them are the true builders of what OpenOffice and even LibreOffice is now. They deserve, at least, my respect. And they're need as most of us a salary to live, salary payed before by Sun but now payed by Oracle. I agree we shouldn't do this, but who is doing so? There is no mention of bad guys in the mailing list, and a google search for oracle bad guys only returns some information about a movie and a page on comic books. -Todd -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Houston, we have a problem.
I believe if it had been me: establish the main steering committee, while at the same time get the website set up. Then, before ever issuing - especially a BETA VERSION - software, I would use the website to introduce the WHAT, WHERE, WHY, WHEN, AND HOW of the new organization. Why it exists, what brought it on, etc. I had fears that when Oracle completed their take over that would be the end of OOo, and maybe it still will be. But you folks know most of those things and there should be a central location where I can go to come to a fuller understanding of what is going on. And then, the final step would be to release the new, finished version of LO! With all the introductions, instructions, etc, that all of us out here need to know - what to expect. Is it a replacement of OOo? Does it run side by side? What do I need to do to get it installed correctly? But, come on, release a BETA VERSION, and we don't even know what the hell is going on yet! Roxy Robinson Hi Roxy, all! Am Montag, den 18.10.2010, 10:08 -0500 schrieb Roxy Robinson: All concerns seem to be around the foundation, not the software and its users Short answer: Yes. And no. Long answer ... The concerns are the foundation, the software and its users. But how to satisfy user needs without software. How to develop software on a broader basis without the new organizational model? One fundamental issue of each project is limited resources - so you have to focus, independent of the size of your team. One solution is to do things step by step. Our current aim is to create and to promote a solid platform for product development as fast as possible. Without forgetting the other parties. Like you :-) Having everything in place, e.g. the new CMS based website, we can easily share responsibility with those who want to develop a user oriented structure of the website. And I'm part of that team, for sure. Then, we'll be able to provide optimized web content for e.g. libreoffice.org (that still shows the same content like documentfoundation.org). Until we have reached the corresponding sub-goal, we really rely on your (user) support and your experience. Please guide users on mailing lists, point them to blogs, or even slightly adapt the current website (please announce it in advance). Cheers, Christoph PS: I agree, that the current front page of the website is a mess :-) -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Basic question about Oracle asking OOo community members to leave
Op 18-10-2010 14:09, James Walker schreef: The one thing that has always bugged me is. How is it any different having LibreOffice and someone being in both project, and the OracleOffice part. I mean are they not competing projects. Would Oracle not prefer someone to go with there version of OpenOffice.org and pay them for support on it. How then can an employee, someone being paid by Oracle, then sit as a member of the Community Council, or have an active role for the project. I really see no difference in the two at this time. Well, I do. I have never heard of any Sun/Oracle employee promoting that OpenOffice.org community members contribute to StarOffice/Oracle Open Office instead, let alone on an Openoffice.org mailing list. -- Vriendelijke groet, Simon Brouwer. | http://nl.openoffice.org | http://www.opentaal.org | -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Basic question about Oracle asking OOo community members to leave
On 10/18/2010 01:52 PM, Italo Vignoli wrote: This clearly shows that we are acting properly, and the people assuming that we are calling or considering them Oracle bad guys are wrong. I think it's a challenge for people not in the inner circle of the OOo community (most of us) to differentiate between Oracle the company, which is rebuffing LibO (apparently), and Oracle the set of individuals, who have worked so hard over many years to make OOo great. I don't know the Oracle employees, but I've heard many good things said about them on this list. I think Oracle the company is wrong/bad/a-disappointment for not wanting to join LibO. An independent foundation was contemplated from the beginning of opening OOo, Oracle should have expected it to come eventually if they didn't make it themselves, and it is the best way to encourage outside collaboration (which has been a big problem). By choosing not to join, Oracle will create an unnecessary split, duplication of effort for developers, and at least temporary confusion for users. If they continue to not participate or donate the OOo trademark, I think OOo will wither and LibO will grow -- but it's an unnecessary growing pain to have users learn that LibO is the more active continuation of the OOo suite they've already become used to. On the other hand, in the long term, having TDF against Oracle's will is better than not having TDF. Jon -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Houston, we have a problem.
On 10/18/2010 01:58 PM, Roxy Robinson wrote: I believe if it had been me: establish the main steering committee, while at the same time get the website set up. Then, before ever issuing - especially a BETA VERSION - software, I would use the website to introduce the WHAT, WHERE, WHY, WHEN, AND HOW of the new organization. Why it exists, what brought it on, etc. I had fears that when Oracle completed their take over that would be the end of OOo, and maybe it still will be. But you folks know most of those things and there should be a central location where I can go to come to a fuller understanding of what is going on. And then, the final step would be to release the new, finished version of LO! I disagree -- I think the steering committee has shown good prioritization. To establish immediate technical credibility of the new TDF, it's much more important to release a quality beta product than to set up the legalities of the foundation, its website, or the interface to the users. This shows that TDF means business, and has the backing of developers to make this happen. Without the beta, all you have is a bunch of hot air on a website. I think we can exercise some patience in waiting for the mechanics of the foundation to be set up, determine how membership is granted, decide how donations will be handled, establish the relationship to OOo, etc. In the meantime, since we have the beta out there, the developer's list can (and has) catch on fire with people submitting patches against the beta. We are really hitting the ground running! Jon -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Houston, we have a problem.
Well, you can think what you want to think and I, as just a common every day, 9 year user of OOo, will think what I want to think. Your thoughts went way beyond what I said needed to be done, anyway. To release any software, beta or otherwise, with the support/instruction function in place, is stupid! IMHO!!! Roxy Robinson On 10/18/2010 01:58 PM, Roxy Robinson wrote: I believe if it had been me: establish the main steering committee, while at the same time get the website set up. Then, before ever issuing - especially a BETA VERSION - software, I would use the website to introduce the WHAT, WHERE, WHY, WHEN, AND HOW of the new organization. Why it exists, what brought it on, etc. I had fears that when Oracle completed their take over that would be the end of OOo, and maybe it still will be. But you folks know most of those things and there should be a central location where I can go to come to a fuller understanding of what is going on. And then, the final step would be to release the new, finished version of LO! I disagree -- I think the steering committee has shown good prioritization. To establish immediate technical credibility of the new TDF, it's much more important to release a quality beta product than to set up the legalities of the foundation, its website, or the interface to the users. This shows that TDF means business, and has the backing of developers to make this happen. Without the beta, all you have is a bunch of hot air on a website. I think we can exercise some patience in waiting for the mechanics of the foundation to be set up, determine how membership is granted, decide how donations will be handled, establish the relationship to OOo, etc. In the meantime, since we have the beta out there, the developer's list can (and has) catch on fire with people submitting patches against the beta. We are really hitting the ground running! Jon -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] UI proposal
Hi everyone, I put up another post: http://clickortap.wordpress.com/2010/10/18/citrus-page-selection/ . It's quite short this time. (I'm putting it up because Alexandro Colorado mentioned being able to change the orientation of an OOo page, without needing to do so many clicks and changing styles under the thread LibO roadmap?) -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] First Marketing Conference Call
Hi Roman, Roman Gelbort wrote on 2010-10-18 21.41: It's possible attend at this conference? How can be participate of marketing team. sure, it's open for everyone - would be great to have you on board! See http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/ConfCalls for details. Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] UI proposal
Hi Charles, 2010/10/17 Charles Marcus cmar...@media-brokers.com On 2010-10-15 7:33 PM, Christoph Noack wrote: Charles mentioned that choice is best ... that is true if people really know what they want and how to adapt something in their given situation. Many software products miss that the majority of their users doesn't fall into that category :-) So to prepare an interaction concept that it works right from the start for most people, that is the real hard part. So allow for three 'modes': 1. Legacy (the current Menus/Toolbars style), 2. Newfangled (ribbon, or whatever it is to be called), and 3. Custom (allows the user to basically mix/match and customize whatever they want), with a big fat scary warning with a default of NO/CANCEL, that will prevent any casual user from enabling it... How about just adding a Revert button? Or, better yet, how about having the customizations saveable as a file. One would be able to: 1) revert back to the original at any time; 2) easily have his/her custom UI on as many computers as he/she'd want to; 3) download a UI designed specifically for his/her needs. -- Best regards, Charles -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.orgdiscuss%2bh...@documentfoundation.orgfor instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Q: Why is this email five sentences or less? A: http://five.sentenc.es -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] unsubscribed posters
On 10/18/2010 1:24 AM, James Wilde wrote: On Oct 17, 2010, at 19:54 , Charles Marcus wrote: ... I do know that the users/discuss lists volume is way too heavy for an 'average user' to get any benefit from. For example, since checking my email last on Friday evening, there have been 150+ new messages to this list... this would simply terrify anyone who subbed for a simple answer to a simple question. I agree. It terrifies me! OTOH people looking for a simple answer to a simple question shouldn't be in discuss but in users. At the moment users gets about 5 messages a day - more later, of course - but over on OOo, one gets a heavy day with maybe 30 messages and some days with just a couple. I don't think OOo users list is too heavy for a normal user. That depends partly on how often they look at and clear their mail. We've certainly gotten plenty of messages on the users list about getting overloaded with traffic. Are these normal users? I'm not sure there really is such a critter! However, I like the idea of separate lists for separate parts, writer, calc, etc. Probably worth looking into, but see my earlier response. And finally, are we going over to the wiki as (I think) Jean suggested? Yes, Jean suggested it and I think it's a great idea -- but she's too swamped to do it, so I've embarked on an exercise to learn about wiki development and management. Not the simplest of subjects, so it will take me a while -- unless somebody else who is following this has the necessary skill and time? //James -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Houston, we have a problem.
On Mon Oct 18 2010 15:00:59 GMT-0700 (PDT) Roxy Robinson wrote: Well, you can think what you want to think and I, as just a common every day, 9 year user of OOo, will think what I want to think. Your thoughts went way beyond what I said needed to be done, anyway. To release any software, beta or otherwise, with the support/instruction function in place, is stupid! IMHO!!! Roxy Robinson Not trying to put words in your mouth, so to speak, but I think you intended without instead of with. Which I agree with. There should have been better planing on several levels. Andy -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] unsubscribed posters
Hi Barbara, all, Barbara Duprey schrieb: On 10/15/2010 7:11 PM, Bernhard Dippold wrote: [...] I'd like to establish a common agreement on how to deal with moderated mails, so these off-topic mails will be not necessary any more. That would be nice, and maybe we can make it work -- but this list may not be the best place to do it. How about if we (and whoever else is especially interested in all this) start communicating off list and try to generate a strawman for the rest of the group to discuss in specific, rather than generic, terms? I'm really interested in this topic, but I'm running totally out of time. It's hard to read all the mails and to reply to the most important only (in my eyes). I will probably not be able to contribute much to this thread (or to the wiki) during the next few weeks - but I promise to stay on reading it... Sorry :-( Bernhard -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] unsubscribed posters
On 10/18/2010 1:16 AM, James Wilde wrote: On Oct 16, 2010, at 00:50 , Barbara Duprey wrote: ... It is often not clear whether or not the OP is subscribed -- many can't/won't look at the full headers or filter on them, and sometimes they join the discussion later, when the header is not available. For somebody who really has an interest in the care and feeding of currently unsubscribed users, so they can eventually be brought into the community, or at least be happy with the software, this means that the OP may well be dissatisfied. They don't get answers, and assume we don't care. An additional complication here is that, as far as I have been able to see by going through the headers of messages I have approved, there is no easy way to see that these headers have been moderated as there is on the OOo list. Almost the only thing I see is that my email address, albeit a little garbled, is included with a reference to the envelope (I don't remember the exact wording, and don't have an example in front of me, so I can't be more specific.) there is no easy filter to apply. Presumably the result of us using a different list mailer from the OOo one. Does this mean you're a (the?) moderator for this list? Not having that Delivered-To header definitely does complicate things! I'm amazed that anybody is posting here unsubscribed at this point, I'd expect the early users here to have more awareness of the value of subscribing. From this point of view it would be better if the unsubscribed OP's address were added to the reply-to line, but I can't see that the moderator can do this, since (s)he merely clicks on a link. Plus I, at least, have started sending a mail to the OP of messages I moderate, suggesting that they subscribe. I assume other mods do this, too. Even if the Reply=To were modified, wouldn't the inclusion of the OP on the messages fall apart as soon as somebody didn't use Reply All? I, for one, would have to be seriously retrained! I still feel that the most profitable approach is referring the OP to an archive with Reply capability, but this is a subject for more discussion elsewhere. Until/unless we get a wiki up, feel free to use my e-mail; I'll try to include everybody who lets me know they're interested. //James -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Houston, we have a problem.
Thanks, Andy, I did mean without, of course. I do that quite often, because I think ahead of what I type. Too often, too far ahead. Roxy On Mon Oct 18 2010 15:00:59 GMT-0700 (PDT) Roxy Robinson wrote: Well, you can think what you want to think and I, as just a common every day, 9 year user of OOo, will think what I want to think. Your thoughts went way beyond what I said needed to be done, anyway. To release any software, beta or otherwise, with the support/instruction function in place, is stupid! IMHO!!! Roxy Robinson Not trying to put words in your mouth, so to speak, but I think you intended without instead of with. Which I agree with. There should have been better planing on several levels. Andy -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Installing LibreOffice Extensions
On 10/18/2010 06:02 PM, Marc Paré wrote: I'd also suggest that toolbars be mergable into existing toolbars, rather than create their own new toolbar. Doesn't it do this already? Some are. Some aren't. My suggestion is for all to be mergable. A couple of months ago I took a screenshot of OOo with all toolbars visible. There was no space to edit text. I'm not sure where I uploaded it to, though. :( jonathon -- No human will see non-list, non-bulk, non-junk email sent to this address. It all gets forwarded to /dev/null -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Houston, we have a problem.
On 10/18/2010 03:00 PM, Roxy Robinson wrote: Well, you can think what you want to think and I, as just a common every day, 9 year user of OOo, will think what I want to think. Your thoughts went way beyond what I said needed to be done, anyway. To release any software, beta or otherwise, [without] the support/instruction function in place, is stupid! IMHO!!! (Roxy, please quote properly, so people won't get confused about who said what. Thanks.) Well, you have a pretty strong opinion for it being humble. I don't think anyone here is stupid, least of all the organizers and developers of TDF. That's just rude. They are doing an awesome job. I guess we'll agree to disagree. Also, it seems you are attempting to establish reputation by touting 9 years usage, or perhaps I am misunderstanding your reason for mentioning it? Does this matter? I don't think it does, but if you want to have that contest please realize that I have been using StarOffice/OOo for a few years longer than you -- I forget when StarDivision starting making it available free for personal use, 1998, I think. It's beta software, so there should be no expectation that a common user would be installing it -- there is a warning on the site that says it's not for production use. The point I think is to send a message that LibO is going to make the rubber hit the road, right out of the gate. Considering all of the vaporware out there, I think that LibO is off to an awesome start. And, it worked -- it got the community going. The beta was downloaded 80 000 times in the first week, and the developer list is going gang-busters on patches. I consider this a wild success so far. Jon -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: Re: Re: [tdf-discuss] Basic question about Oracle asking OOo community members to leave
Hi Todd, Sure, now try in Google again looking up for irony. :-) Best Greetings, Ra todd rme wrote: On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 3:32 PM, Ramon Sole ramon.s...@opscons.com wrote: And please, guys, let's stop calling the people that didn't decide to move to TDF the Oracle bad guys. There's a lot of people in OOo that doesn't work for Oracle. And I met some of the Oracle bad guys during those years and they're nice guys. Furthermore, some of them are the true builders of what OpenOffice and even LibreOffice is now. They deserve, at least, my respect. And they're need as most of us a salary to live, salary payed before by Sun but now payed by Oracle. I agree we shouldn't do this, but who is doing so? There is no mention of bad guys in the mailing list, and a google search for oracle bad guys only returns some information about a movie and a page on comic books. -Todd -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Houston, we have a problem.
p.s. The Swiss have, through the centuries, developed a real sense of checks and balances in participatory decession making porocesses that really efficently get things done in a way that they feel satisfied their goals and aims are being met. I'll rest on this now - I hope that it helps any one who is contemplating these issues. Paul On 19 October 2010 12:16, Paul A Norman paul.a.nor...@gmail.com wrote: I personally realsie and appreciate that a lot of focuus has been on the divorce from Oracle. But there is an old saying that the seed that is sown in the ground is the seed that grows. Turn things around from leaving Oracle - getting the community together and refocuss in short order on why you have seperated from Oracle - to be in a position to be able to do a better job. And now focuss on what that better job is. You have highly talkanted developers amongst you - that hardly needs to be a better job it is very well done already - itds the overall product if I may use that word, and servicing your clientelle. That is the future. But if that is not at heart now, then the seed that will be growing into a onster tree is a movement about not being under an awful ogre (any number of corporations). The new community is by any definition a corporation (a body corporate) jsut not a private profit making one The questoin is what sort of corpoation will it become, and what does it exist for? Just some thoughts. 1. Quality customer service 2. Decission making porocesses that really utilise client feedback 3. UI development that really takes User experience and concerns to the heart of decission making 4. Feature devlopment and external process integration that leads the field and pre-empts clients' needs 5. Care for its own members professional and skill cultivation to meet these sorts of aims. 6. Unashamedly adopt policies, mandates, and leadership structures and review processes that facilitate the development and implementaton of the various component parts of the project(s) 7. Elect leaders for fixed terms (what ever) find a mechanism to move forward with out having to have a refunrendum on every single point great and small 8 Recognise and Give real places to people in needed expertese areas who are not dvelopers as such! Paul On 19 October 2010 11:45, Jon Hamkins hamk...@alumni.caltech.edu wrote: On 10/18/2010 03:00 PM, Roxy Robinson wrote: Well, you can think what you want to think and I, as just a common every day, 9 year user of OOo, will think what I want to think. Your thoughts went way beyond what I said needed to be done, anyway. To release any software, beta or otherwise, [without] the support/instruction function in place, is stupid! IMHO!!! (Roxy, please quote properly, so people won't get confused about who said what. Thanks.) Well, you have a pretty strong opinion for it being humble. I don't think anyone here is stupid, least of all the organizers and developers of TDF. That's just rude. They are doing an awesome job. I guess we'll agree to disagree. Also, it seems you are attempting to establish reputation by touting 9 years usage, or perhaps I am misunderstanding your reason for mentioning it? Does this matter? I don't think it does, but if you want to have that contest please realize that I have been using StarOffice/OOo for a few years longer than you -- I forget when StarDivision starting making it available free for personal use, 1998, I think. It's beta software, so there should be no expectation that a common user would be installing it -- there is a warning on the site that says it's not for production use. The point I think is to send a message that LibO is going to make the rubber hit the road, right out of the gate. Considering all of the vaporware out there, I think that LibO is off to an awesome start. And, it worked -- it got the community going. The beta was downloaded 80 000 times in the first week, and the developer list is going gang-busters on patches. I consider this a wild success so far. Jon -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: LibO Beta 2 Writer/Web (Html Document)
On Mon Oct 18 2010 00:43:11 GMT-0700 (PDT) Jean Hollis Weber wrote: Sorry to be chiming in here a bit late... In case you haven't found the answer yet, it's in the File Export menu. That's where it is in OOo 3.2.1 also. Whenever you can't find something in Save As, look in Export as well. Yes, I agree that it's a technical difference that makes no sense or difference to ordinary users. --Jean G'day Jean, As you had ask Paul moved this over to the Users list, I will get a link if you want. I tried to answer his questions, and found that the problems, to me, were not problems but a misunderstanding on his part. I as where he when he had used OOo to build web pages, when he had used web tools in OOo, etc. At the end of the message I ask why he would want to use a word processor to build web pages. Well he keyed off of that one question and got all defensive. And started blowing off. I replied to some of his message and still have not got a straight answer. I do not remember seeing web tools in OOo, did I miss something? Have a great one. Andy -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Multilingualism and discussions
I would like to propose that unlike what existed under Sun and Oracle, the linguistic communities _including_ the English speaking community, are all identified by a specific language marker and that all the lists that do not use that language marker are explicitly multilingual. The status quo under Sun and Oracle came from the fact that both Sun and Oracle were American based and mostly English speaking structures but we have no reason to reproduce that in the TDF. That basically means that: All the English speaking lists are @en.libreoffice.org And that all the lists @libreoffice.org are multilingual. This is the only way to ensure that no linguistic community has more power in the decision process than any other which is a basic requirement for all democratic process. There are enough multilingual people in the respective communities to ensure that the communication gap is bridged in all those lists. Jean-Christophe Helary fun: http://mac4translators.blogspot.com work: http://www.doublet.jp (ja/en fr) tweets: http://twitter.com/brandelune -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] UI proposal
Hi, :-) How about just adding a Revert button? Or, better yet, how about having the customizations saveable as a file. One would be able to: 1) revert back to the original at any time; 2) easily have his/her custom UI on as many computers as he/she'd want to; 3) download a UI designed specifically for his/her needs. This sounds fine to me. David Nelson -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Basic question about Oracle asking OOo community members to leave
+1. Right, there are other colors than black and white in the world. Nevertheless, sometimes it's necessary to force a bit, to reach the targets. And thanks, for all those have been working and work in the back/front to push OOo ahead. Miguel Ángel Ríos On 18/10/10 21:32, Ramon Sole wrote: Hello *, maybe the problem is OOo has the fear that TDF people with responsabilities in OOo use the OOo resources in favor of TDF? I'm not talking about Charles, but i.e in the Spanish Communitiy the Project Leader has closed the subscription to the OOo spanish mailing lists with the label Migrating lists to TDF, and you can only easily subscribe to the TDF lists. What would you do if you were in charge of the OOo project after such things? I expect the most of TDF, but we should understand the position of the OOo leader and other people in Oracle. And please, guys, let's stop calling the people that didn't decide to move to TDF the Oracle bad guys. There's a lot of people in OOo that doesn't work for Oracle. And I met some of the Oracle bad guys during those years and they're nice guys. Furthermore, some of them are the true builders of what OpenOffice and even LibreOffice is now. They deserve, at least, my respect. And they're need as most of us a salary to live, salary payed before by Sun but now payed by Oracle. Best Greetings, Ra Charles-H. Schulz wrote: Hello Marco, Le Mon, 18 Oct 2010 12:58:14 +0200, M. Fioretti mfiore...@nexaima.net a écrit : On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 12:00:56 PM +0200, Charles-H. Schulz (charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org) wrote: On the other hand, I and others do not tolerate being fired by Oracle. Resigning is one thing, being kicked out is another one. Resigning is a logical consequence of our actions that will actually happen soon, being kicked out and accepting it means we acknowledge that Oracle has the right of life and death over the OOo community. Good thing we went to open the Document Foundation then! Charles, reading stuff like this doesn't make me feel like I'm being treated like an adult. Here's what I actually read in the paragraph I quoted: You will not acknowledge that you won't accept anymore the fact that Oracle has right of life and death over the OOo community now, by being kicked out and accepting it. Because you've already acknowledged that you wouldn't accept that right in the very moment when you announced TDF, by creating it. You wanted since the beginning Oracle to fire you, to prove that they are indeed tyrants (which they proved quite well, IMHO) And this is the only reason why such a logical consequence of your action as resigning didn't happen simultaneously to the announcement of TDF. I honestly can't imagine any other obstacle. If I completely misunderstood or missed something, please explain. In any case, as far as I am concerned none of the above means that creating TDF was wrong or that I approve what Oracle did. I am just saying that this side of the whole messy matter doesn't seem to have been managed properly, and that statements like the one above are, uhm, a bit weak? What I may have not written clearly, is 2 things: -first and foremost we always kept the door open for Oracle. If we had wanted to do a fork, we would have indeed resigned almost on the same day I think. Now the behaviour of Oracle being what it is, the situation is being clarified, so to speak. -in French we say that there is l'art et la manière. You can send me a private message, as an Oracle employee, asking me : so Charles, when are you guys going away? but if you send a public message kicking us out on vague grounds, ignoring our very own guidelines, that's very different. So of course, I'm not trying to say that I'm surprised that such consequences of our action happen, and I was not trying to be disingenuous or not treating you like an adult in my message. But what I'm saying is that we were surprised by the tone, the way, the brutality of Oracle's answer, which seems unnecessary, and too early. We have not even started to talk and we're being thrown out? Again, our doors are open, but Oracle, through that move, does not seem to be interested and is behaving in a rude and violent way. Also of interest: I am very surprised that Oracle, or rather the Oracle's employees contributing to OOo, are chasing us out as if we were 5 idiots. Let's not talk numbers here, but let's just say that it would be a conservative estimate if I said that 80 percent of the NLC and the QA project (and I'm not talking about the others) are moving to TDF. So Oracle has either become blind on what's going on on their mailing lists, bugtrackers and commits or it is effectively saying: we don't acknowledge that our community is leaving (and yes, there are and will always be exceptions). That, to me, is a failure, it's a community
Re: [tdf-discuss] Basic question about Oracle asking OOo community members to leave
On 18/10/10 21:32, Ramon Sole wrote: Hello *, I'm not talking about Charles, but i.e in the Spanish Communitiy the Project Leader has closed the subscription to the OOo spanish mailing lists with the label Migrating lists to TDF, and you can only easily subscribe to the TDF lists. If the Spanish community has agreed to move to TDF then there are not reasons why that should not happen. What would you do if you were in charge of the OOo project after such things? I would seriously reconsider the way I deal with my volunteer communities. Jean-Christophe Helary fun: http://mac4translators.blogspot.com work: http://www.doublet.jp (ja/en fr) tweets: http://twitter.com/brandelune -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: LibO Beta 2 Writer/Web (Html Document)
I'm sorry we couldn't help you, Paul. We are all trying to be helpful where we can, and with so much going on, there are a lot of loose, unanswered ends, or misunderstandings. I hope you stick around and get your answers. Jon On 10/18/2010 05:21 PM, Paul A Norman wrote: I'm delisting from all Libre Office connections that is a complete misreperesntation of the situation and rude to boot. You people really do appear to have no care for Users at all. There are many valid problems still in that thread, but I could not care at all now. BYE Paul On 19 October 2010 13:17, Andy Browna...@the-martin-byrd.net wrote: On Mon Oct 18 2010 00:43:11 GMT-0700 (PDT) Jean Hollis Weber wrote: Sorry to be chiming in here a bit late... In case you haven't found the answer yet, it's in the File Export menu. That's where it is in OOo 3.2.1 also. Whenever you can't find something in Save As, look in Export as well. Yes, I agree that it's a technical difference that makes no sense or difference to ordinary users. --Jean G'day Jean, As you had ask Paul moved this over to the Users list, I will get a link if you want. I tried to answer his questions, and found that the problems, to me, were not problems but a misunderstanding on his part. I as where he when he had used OOo to build web pages, when he had used web tools in OOo, etc. At the end of the message I ask why he would want to use a word processor to build web pages. Well he keyed off of that one question and got all defensive. And started blowing off. I replied to some of his message and still have not got a straight answer. -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Houston, we have a problem.
I was saying I have been using OOo 9 years - and actually when I start counting its probably a year or 2 longer - only because I have used it exclusively as my office program. I'm not trying to establish a reputation for anything except for being a bit dissatisfied with the way things are going right now. Are these the same, or different folks, that are supposed to be bringing forth an OOo 3.3? If not, what happened to it? As I said previously, I already knew of the Oracle takeover of Sun through one of the several computer related newsletters I subscribe to. When I heard that it bothered me a little in regard to whether OOo would continue to be available or not. And then out of the blue I get an email announcing LibreOffice, and that the first beta is available for download. Yeah, it says it shouldn't be considered to be ready for production. My first thought is what the heck happened to the next release of OOo that they had been talking about. Is this a replacement product with another name? Go to the website for the download and there is really no information there explaining what the heck is going on. So I go ahead and download LO while I am there. Only later to find out - no this isn't an upgrade to OOo; its another product. But I guess, similar to OOo? And, I will guarantee you there are a ton of other folks out here with the same questions I had/have!!! I know all the folks tha t I've introduced to OOo over the years have them. And TDF may be doing an outstanding job - but I don't see it They sent me the link to the download, but I'm certainly not a beta tester. So I'm still pretty much in the dark on what to expect. And, yes, I do have a fairly strong opinion about that, but that does not mean it is not an humble one! Roxy Robinson On 10/18/2010 03:00 PM, Roxy Robinson wrote: Well, you can think what you want to think and I, as just a common every day, 9 year user of OOo, will think what I want to think. Your thoughts went way beyond what I said needed to be done, anyway. To release any software, beta or otherwise, [without] the support/instruction function in place, is stupid! IMHO!!! (Roxy, please quote properly, so people won't get confused about who said what. Thanks.) Well, you have a pretty strong opinion for it being humble. I don't think anyone here is stupid, least of all the organizers and developers of TDF. That's just rude. They are doing an awesome job. I guess we'll agree to disagree. Also, it seems you are attempting to establish reputation by touting 9 years usage, or perhaps I am misunderstanding your reason for mentioning it? Does this matter? I don't think it does, but if you want to have that contest please realize that I have been using StarOffice/OOo for a few years longer than you -- I forget when StarDivision starting making it available free for personal use, 1998, I think. It's beta software, so there should be no expectation that a common user would be installing it -- there is a warning on the site that says it's not for production use. The point I think is to send a message that LibO is going to make the rubber hit the road, right out of the gate. Considering all of the vaporware out there, I think that LibO is off to an awesome start. And, it worked -- it got the community going. The beta was downloaded 80 000 times in the first week, and the developer list is going gang-busters on patches. I consider this a wild success so far. Jon -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Isa this the Hotel California? Can't Delist
I have tried to delist from this fiasco and I am still getting emails -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: LibO Beta 2 Writer/Web (Html Document)
I've tried to delist and I am still getting emails. One of the things that I pointed out was that span/span tags were being saved in the html document with no content - that would seem to me to have been important to point out - but I have left LiBO feeling abused, and talked about by one of your people on another list - quite unacceptable in the real world. Attitudes appear to me to be the issue and I have a lot to get done without having to fight through such unncessary time wasting things. I've given up, and have tried to delist from all LiBO stuff for now, and have taken LiBO off and I am putting Oracle's OOO on again for now until if/there is a change of heart on how LiBO is run. I had some real issues with the Writer/Web html format and functionality, and I can't believe how my postings were handled on help+user list. I was even asked why I was using LiBO for making web forms and not some other FOSS, yet the person coiuld not name to me another WYSIWYG html designer for Xp. All I was doing was what LiBO says it will do, and I wanted to help them debug the Beta where it was not saving things properly. I've been in unsalaried community work for nearly 30 years now and know that even though you do things for free, you still have to have a service attitude in your heart. I was really hopeful when I saw the break form Oracle - now I am very unsure, basic disciplines seem to be missing in your free-for-all round-about that maybe a formal corporate environment better helps the public with? I hope you prove that wrong, for the many schools, not-for-profits and poorer members of the public who would like/ really NEED to see LiBO suceeed. You guys have taken upon yourselves a very big public responsability - but I do not know if you yet recognise any accountability to any one other than yourselves. Paul On 19 October 2010 14:18, Jon Hamkins hamk...@alumni.caltech.edu wrote: I'm sorry we couldn't help you, Paul. We are all trying to be helpful where we can, and with so much going on, there are a lot of loose, unanswered ends, or misunderstandings. I hope you stick around and get your answers. Jon On 10/18/2010 05:21 PM, Paul A Norman wrote: I'm delisting from all Libre Office connections that is a complete misreperesntation of the situation and rude to boot. You people really do appear to have no care for Users at all. There are many valid problems still in that thread, but I could not care at all now. BYE Paul On 19 October 2010 13:17, Andy Browna...@the-martin-byrd.net wrote: On Mon Oct 18 2010 00:43:11 GMT-0700 (PDT) Jean Hollis Weber wrote: Sorry to be chiming in here a bit late... In case you haven't found the answer yet, it's in the File Export menu. That's where it is in OOo 3.2.1 also. Whenever you can't find something in Save As, look in Export as well. Yes, I agree that it's a technical difference that makes no sense or difference to ordinary users. --Jean G'day Jean, As you had ask Paul moved this over to the Users list, I will get a link if you want. I tried to answer his questions, and found that the problems, to me, were not problems but a misunderstanding on his part. I as where he when he had used OOo to build web pages, when he had used web tools in OOo, etc. At the end of the message I ask why he would want to use a word processor to build web pages. Well he keyed off of that one question and got all defensive. And started blowing off. I replied to some of his message and still have not got a straight answer. -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Houston, we have a problem.
On 10/18/2010 07:27 PM, Roxy Robinson wrote: You just don't get it - the web page is the problem. There is nothing there to learn. Is there something you are trying to find out? I am willing to help you learn the answers. Jon -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Houston, we have a problem.
Thanks Roxy, Yes that it what I got too and used to try and unsubscribe but still the emails keep rolling in. I used the approriate thing for the other hidden list I was herded onto abruptely as well. One of the ones that you could not find by yourself, it was after all only the Users' Help list - who needed to find that any way? Paul On 19 October 2010 15:45, Roxy Robinson rocma...@ranchwireless.com wrote: Paul, Here is what I was sent when I subscribed. Welcome! You have been subscribed to the discuss@documentfoundation.org mailinglist. To unsubscribe send a message to: discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Roxy Dear Roxy, I've given up, and have delisted from all LiBO stuff for now, and have taken LiBO off and I am putting Oracle's OOO on again for now until if/there is a change of heart on how LiBO is run. I had some real issues with the Writer/Web html format and functionality, and I can't believe how my postings were handled on help+user list. I was even asked why I was using LiBO for making web forms and not some other FOSS, yet the person coiuld not name to me another WYSIWYG html designer for Xp. Al I was doing was what LiBO says it will do, and I wanted to help them debug the Beta where it was not saving things properly. I've been in unsalaried community work for nearly 30 years now and know that even though you do things for free, you still have to have a service attitude in your heart. I think that seems to be misisng somewhere with some of the LiBO carry on. This message won't even be on the list as I de-listed. Paul On 19 October 2010 14:45, Roxy Robinson rocma...@ranchwireless.com wrote: I was saying I have been using OOo 9 years - and actually when I start counting its probably a year or 2 longer - only because I have used it exclusively as my office program. I'm not trying to establish a reputation for anything except for being a bit dissatisfied with the way things are going right now. Are these the same, or different folks, that are supposed to be bringing forth an OOo 3.3? If not, what happened to it? As I said previously, I already knew of the Oracle takeover of Sun through one of the several computer related newsletters I subscribe to. When I heard that it bothered me a little in regard to whether OOo would continue to be available or not. And then out of the blue I get an email announcing LibreOffice, and that the first beta is available for download. Yeah, it says it shouldn't be considered to be ready for production. My first thought is what the heck happened to the next release of OOo that they had been talking about. Is this a replacement product with another name? Go to the website for the download and there is really no information there explaining what the heck is going on. So I go ahead and download LO while I am there. Only later to find out - no this isn't an upgrade to OOo; its another product. But I guess, similar to OOo? And, I will guarantee you there are a ton of other folks out here with the same questions I had/have!!! I know all the folks tha t I've introduced to OOo over the years have them. And TDF may be doing an outstanding job - but I don't see it They sent me the link to the download, but I'm certainly not a beta tester. So I'm still pretty much in the dark on what to expect. And, yes, I do have a fairly strong opinion about that, but that does not mean it is not an humble one! Roxy Robinson On 10/18/2010 03:00 PM, Roxy Robinson wrote: Well, you can think what you want to think and I, as just a common every day, 9 year user of OOo, will think what I want to think. Your thoughts went way beyond what I said needed to be done, anyway. To release any software, beta or otherwise, [without] the support/instruction function in place, is stupid! IMHO!!! (Roxy, please quote properly, so people won't get confused about who said what. Thanks.) Well, you have a pretty strong opinion for it being humble. I don't think anyone here is stupid, least of all the organizers and developers of TDF. That's just rude. They are doing an awesome job. I guess we'll agree to disagree. Also, it seems you are attempting to establish reputation by touting 9 years usage, or perhaps I am misunderstanding your reason for mentioning it? Does this matter? I don't think it does, but if you want to have that contest please realize that I have been using StarOffice/OOo for a few years longer than you -- I forget when StarDivision starting making it available free for personal use, 1998, I think. It's beta software, so there should be no expectation that a common user would be installing it -- there is a warning on the site that says it's not for production use. The point I think is to send a message that LibO is going to make the rubber hit the road, right out of the gate. Considering all of the vaporware out there, I think that LibO is off to an awesome start.
Re: [tdf-discuss] Houston, we have a problem.
On 10/18/2010 08:07 PM, Roxy Robinson wrote: I have been learning most of the answers through this email list, which is, of course, the reason I joined it in the first place. Because there wasn't anything to learn on the web page. But now my inbox is inundated with mail, and I shouldn't have had to subscribe to this crazy list to find out what is going on between OOo and LO. The amount of mail on this list would be overwhelming to a lot of users looking for answers. Which would probably turn them off to LO right off the bat. I know it has me, at least for now. Maybe by the time there is an actual product called LibreOffice, y'all will have figured out that I'm not the only one that would like to know a little about what all is going on with Oracle/OOo/LO. And it would be better to learn about all that just by reading it from a web page rather than having a mailbox running over. Like someone else has already said in one of the emails about all that there is on the web page is a lot of self praising, back patting, and a tt a boys. I understand you are disappointed by the website, but you started by saying, I will guarantee you there are a ton of other folks out here with the same questions I had/have!! I'm glad that at least the mailing list is answering them. That's one good thing, right? Eventually, the website will be improved -- and substantially so, before the first official stable release of LibO. Please be patient -- we are very early in this process! Jon -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Houston, we have a problem.
On 10/18/2010 08:11 PM, Paul A Norman wrote: Hidden under Contribute on their current front paghe they ahve weay down some where some lists - who knows there might even be a more appropriate list. I was told off for trying to report a fault in the beta 2 here and told to go to the User's Help list as if I could have found that by myself from their front page? Yes, click on contribute from the front page of the TDF website, and all the mailing lists are listed there, including the users list. (Perhaps it didn't used to be so, when you last looked.) Jon -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] RE: Localized marketing mailing lists - based on regions rather than on languages
• From: Bernhard Dippold • Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 20:46:30 +0200 2) Name these lists according to the ISO country code of the most active group inside this region. It is unlikely that EN-CA and FR-CA will share the same marketing tools. If we use country codes, we can use language/region codes as well. 5) Most of the languages are mainly spoken in one area only, so there is no need to differ between language and region. (In these cases ISO code for language and country are often the same) See above. There are plenty of countries with multiple linguistic communities. Also, for the US, you could totally conceive a ES-US marketing activity to focus on the Latino needs in the US. Jean-Christophe Helary fun: http://mac4translators.blogspot.com work: http://www.doublet.jp (ja/en fr) tweets: http://twitter.com/brandelune -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: LibO Beta 2 Writer/Web (Html Document)
On 19 October 2010 16:32, Jon Hamkins hamk...@alumni.caltech.edu wrote: On 10/18/2010 08:24 PM, Paul A Norman wrote: Try and ghet these things through to the others. If OOO fades what will poorer schools, Not for proftis and poorer memebrs of the community have if LiBO doesn't really get its act together? Agreed -- things are just a smidge better than a shambles now. There is a lot of work to do. Fortunately, there are a lot of people who want to help out and make it right. Well, you'll need a framework that can actually make things come together - what I have monitored on the list is quite distrubing to say the very least. You guys are taking on a major Corporate (perhaps behind the shadowy scenes another one we won't name here - is at work in all of this as well) and you are playing it like an infomal neighbourhood football game. It will not work as it is. Paul Jon -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Houston, we have a problem.
Still getting email even though I've had two confirmed unsubscribed(s) Jon, I really liek you trying to help - but please is it worth defending the indefensible? For a memeber of the public would they ever guess that Contriubte means Help Availabel Here Don't defend community actions when they are wrong, or you will all end up in a dead end. Paul On 19 October 2010 16:26, Jon Hamkins hamk...@alumni.caltech.edu wrote: On 10/18/2010 08:11 PM, Paul A Norman wrote: Hidden under Contribute on their current front paghe they ahve weay down some where some lists - who knows there might even be a more appropriate list. I was told off for trying to report a fault in the beta 2 here and told to go to the User's Help list as if I could have found that by myself from their front page? Yes, click on contribute from the front page of the TDF website, and all the mailing lists are listed there, including the users list. (Perhaps it didn't used to be so, when you last looked.) Jon -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Houston, we have a problem.
Thanks Jean, I really appreciate that you probably did not realise how frustrated quite a few Users are when being told you should be on a list that should actually have been all too obvious to you - but you could never find on the web page. A list that is supposed to guide you to help and you can;t ewven find it, then some one tells you that you are on the wrong list and should be on that other one you always wanted to have found any way? Can you all yet see it form the point of view of the potential millions of people who might like to use LiBO on day? I hope so. Paul On 19 October 2010 16:58, Jean Hollis Weber jeanwe...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, 2010-10-19 at 16:11 +1300, Paul A Norman wrote: Hidden under Contribute on their current front paghe they ahve weay down some where some lists - who knows there might even be a more appropriate list. I was told off for trying to report a fault in the beta 2 here and told to go to the User's Help list as if I could have found that by myself from their front page? Excuse me, you were not told off -- I believe I was the first person to suggest the other list as it is usually more appropriate for solving users' problems. I am sorry if you misunderstood my comment, or if others have been rude to you. I agree with you that the ways of directing users to appropriate support and bug-reporting places need serious improvement. --Jean -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Houston, we have a problem.
As I said previously, if I am hollering I will have an entire sentence/thought/paragraph in all caps. And since not all email programs will accept text that is bold, underlined, colored, or italicized I will continue to use all caps for emphasis, especially since that only includes a word or 2. But you need not worry about having to read any more all caps words from me as I'm (trying) to leave the list! Roxy Robinson g'day Roxy - from one 68 year old to another similar - This limited technology that we use to communicate through provides no means for indicating when upper case text is shouting and when it's emphasing - Sadly one doesn't have to follow threads like this one for very long to realise that many/most posts are cases of people talking past each other rather than speaking to each other. In the hope that you read this rather than being something being sent past you then how about avoiding capitalising stuff in future to avoid the possibility of being interpretted as shouting? cheers Mike Moller Lallybroch Alpacas New Zealand www.lallybroch.co.nz On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 6:29 AM, Roxy Robinson rocma...@ranchwireless.comwrote: Please don't shout, we get the message. If I had been shouting the entire message would have been all caps. I was using all caps for EMPHASIS! Technically there are not yet any normal LibreOffice users; there's not yet any official release, only a beta. Is this not hoped to be a move of all the current OOo users to become users of LO? If so, then there is already millions of normal users. But I totally agree with the concerns about future layout of user-services and feedback. Rather than having an opening web page that seems to be mostly concerned with introducing people and their qualifications, missions and goals, there should be more information about what has taken place in regard to the WHAT, WHERE, WHY, WHEN, AND HOW of this move from OOo to LO. Are both continuing? It sounds that way in some of the discussions, with some members on both groups. There also needs to be more and better installation instructions. Does LO go over OOo? Do they install separately? Does the installation of LO create a directory within its installation called program_old, like my last upgrade installation of OOo did? I believe the cart is out there, not before the horse, but completely without a horse! You just made it from being a totally confused 68 year old user to being a participant in the project - thank you ;-) I have participated in the project, off and on, every since the day I started using OOo about 9 years ago. But I AM still a totally confused 68 year old user. Roxy Robinson -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.orgdiscuss%2bh...@documentfoundation.orgfor instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Houston, we have a problem.
Yep I've had two confirmtatoin that I have left the list and still the emails come rolling Does this constitute nuisnace email now? Paul On 19 October 2010 17:06, Roxy Robinson rocma...@ranchwireless.com wrote: As I said previously, if I am hollering I will have an entire sentence/thought/paragraph in all caps. And since not all email programs will accept text that is bold, underlined, colored, or italicized I will continue to use all caps for emphasis, especially since that only includes a word or 2. But you need not worry about having to read any more all caps words from me as I'm (trying) to leave the list! Roxy Robinson g'day Roxy - from one 68 year old to another similar - This limited technology that we use to communicate through provides no means for indicating when upper case text is shouting and when it's emphasing - Sadly one doesn't have to follow threads like this one for very long to realise that many/most posts are cases of people talking past each other rather than speaking to each other. In the hope that you read this rather than being something being sent past you then how about avoiding capitalising stuff in future to avoid the possibility of being interpretted as shouting? cheers Mike Moller Lallybroch Alpacas New Zealand www.lallybroch.co.nz On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 6:29 AM, Roxy Robinson rocma...@ranchwireless.comwrote: Please don't shout, we get the message. If I had been shouting the entire message would have been all caps. I was using all caps for EMPHASIS! Technically there are not yet any normal LibreOffice users; there's not yet any official release, only a beta. Is this not hoped to be a move of all the current OOo users to become users of LO? If so, then there is already millions of normal users. But I totally agree with the concerns about future layout of user-services and feedback. Rather than having an opening web page that seems to be mostly concerned with introducing people and their qualifications, missions and goals, there should be more information about what has taken place in regard to the WHAT, WHERE, WHY, WHEN, AND HOW of this move from OOo to LO. Are both continuing? It sounds that way in some of the discussions, with some members on both groups. There also needs to be more and better installation instructions. Does LO go over OOo? Do they install separately? Does the installation of LO create a directory within its installation called program_old, like my last upgrade installation of OOo did? I believe the cart is out there, not before the horse, but completely without a horse! You just made it from being a totally confused 68 year old user to being a participant in the project - thank you ;-) I have participated in the project, off and on, every since the day I started using OOo about 9 years ago. But I AM still a totally confused 68 year old user. Roxy Robinson -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.orgdiscuss%2bh...@documentfoundation.orgfor instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Houston, we have a problem.
On Tue, 2010-10-19 at 17:09 +1300, Paul A Norman wrote: Yep I've had two confirmtatoin that I have left the list and still the emails come rolling Does this constitute nuisnace email now? It's probably a glitch in the email system. Unfortunately, it's the middle of the night for the people who take care of that, so it will probably be at least another 4 to 6 hours before someone can look into it. And yes, that sucks, and I'm not defending it. --Jean -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Houston, we have a problem.
On 10/18/2010 08:57 PM, Paul A Norman wrote: I really liek you trying to help - but please is it worth defending the indefensible? For a memeber of the public would they ever guess that Contriubte means Help Availabel Here I thought you were implying that you couldn't get to the mailing lists from the front page, and I was pointing out that you can. I understand you don't like the website. It's already been mentioned on the list that contribute is probably not the best link label for leading to the mailing lists. The way things improve is by having a constructive idea or volunteering to take responsibility for improving some aspect that you think can be improved. Jon Don't defend community actions when they are wrong, or you will all end up in a dead end. Paul On 19 October 2010 16:26, Jon Hamkinshamk...@alumni.caltech.edu wrote: On 10/18/2010 08:11 PM, Paul A Norman wrote: Hidden under Contribute on their current front paghe they ahve weay down some where some lists - who knows there might even be a more appropriate list. I was told off for trying to report a fault in the beta 2 here and told to go to the User's Help list as if I could have found that by myself from their front page? Yes, click on contribute from the front page of the TDF website, and all the mailing lists are listed there, including the users list. (Perhaps it didn't used to be so, when you last looked.) Jon -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Houston, we have a problem.
On Tue, 2010-10-19 at 17:02 +1300, Paul A Norman wrote: Thanks Jean, I really appreciate that you probably did not realise how frustrated quite a few Users are when being told you should be on a list that should actually have been all too obvious to you - but you could never find on the web page. I do understand that, and I'm sorry that my original note came out sounding like you're in the wrong place, you should have known better instead of you can probably get more help in this other place we should have told you about in the beginning. Unfortunately, I'm not authorised to make changes to the website, or I'd do some of the necessary things myself. I find the situation quite frustrating too, even if I have managed to find my way around... I think. And I agree, I hope the people who can make a few simple, necessary changes to improve the website for users will get the message and fix it, not wait until the new website is designed (work is proceeding on yet another list). --Jean A list that is supposed to guide you to help and you can;t ewven find it, then some one tells you that you are on the wrong list and should be on that other one you always wanted to have found any way? Can you all yet see it form the point of view of the potential millions of people who might like to use LiBO on day? I hope so. Paul On 19 October 2010 16:58, Jean Hollis Weber jeanwe...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, 2010-10-19 at 16:11 +1300, Paul A Norman wrote: Hidden under Contribute on their current front paghe they ahve weay down some where some lists - who knows there might even be a more appropriate list. I was told off for trying to report a fault in the beta 2 here and told to go to the User's Help list as if I could have found that by myself from their front page? Excuse me, you were not told off -- I believe I was the first person to suggest the other list as it is usually more appropriate for solving users' problems. I am sorry if you misunderstood my comment, or if others have been rude to you. I agree with you that the ways of directing users to appropriate support and bug-reporting places need serious improvement. --Jean -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Houston, we have a problem.
On 18/10/10 10:22 PM, Jean Hollis Weber wrote: On Tue, 2010-10-19 at 17:09 +1300, Paul A Norman wrote: Yep I've had two confirmtatoin that I have left the list and still the emails come rolling Does this constitute nuisnace email now? It's probably a glitch in the email system. Unfortunately, it's the middle of the night for the people who take care of that, so it will probably be at least another 4 to 6 hours before someone can look into it. And yes, that sucks, and I'm not defending it. --Jean Roxy / Paul, Not to stick my nose in...but if you would really like to stop the mails until the unsubscribe works, there is always the possibility of turning on your spam filtering. Its a rather semi-permanent, forceful solution. If you do subscribe in future you would have to remember to remove the filter to accept mail from the TDF. Sorry you're having a bad time with this. Hope this helps. Scott Furry -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Houston, we have a problem.
On Tue, 2010-10-19 at 00:41 -0400, Drew Jensen wrote: hi Jean, Just being redundant here (multiple posts) - people can use the nabble web interface to the mailing lists if they prefer. sorry - missed an 'l' http://oucv.org/tdf.htm but I'll keep it there and make it nicer over time - so feel free to refer people there when it seems appropriate. Drew -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Houston, we have a problem.
You're a good sort thanks Jean. On 19 October 2010 17:22, Jean Hollis Weber jeanwe...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, 2010-10-19 at 17:09 +1300, Paul A Norman wrote: Yep I've had two confirmtatoin that I have left the list and still the emails come rolling Does this constitute nuisnace email now? It's probably a glitch in the email system. Unfortunately, it's the middle of the night for the people who take care of that, so it will probably be at least another 4 to 6 hours before someone can look into it. And yes, that sucks, and I'm not defending it. --Jean -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Oracle wants LibreOffice members to leave OOo council
Did you read this one, Oracle is getting even funnier :D http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2010/10/oracle-wants-libreoffice-members-to-leave-ooo-council.ars -- http://www.ubuntu.com/ Nikola Yanev http://www.gericom.free.bg http://www.gericom.wordpress.com Linux, Mac OS X PC installing Open Source Software support and translations Part of Ubuntu Bulgarian Translators Team EUROPE Bulgaria 8001 Burgas 57 Macedonia str. 1st floor, 2nd apartment Mobile:+359885321589 ---This mail was sent from Ubuntu by Evolution--- http://projects.gnome.org/evolution/ -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
