Re: [tdf-discuss] [SC] How to define "Membership" within TDF?
Il 21/10/2010 18.46, Charles-H. Schulz ha scritto: While I do absolutely agree that there should be no divide, (heck, I'm no developer myself), I also think that certain activities are appreciated but cannot constitute the only basis for membership consideration. But here, we're going down into details, which is good. Definitely, many details cannot be discussed in depth because the law that will rule the Foundation is still unknown. In some countries such organizations can hire employees, while in others they cannot. So, professional devs and marketing people may be employee of the Foundation but not members or vice-versa or both. In this moment, I can say only that it would be better, as principle, to have multiple types of contributions acknowledged for membership application. That's all. -- Gianluca Turconi -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] unsubscribed posters
On 10/21/2010 5:18 PM, Barbara Duprey wrote: > I'd just like to make sure I'm clear on this, OK? If I get a message > with a Reply-To header, and respond to it using Reply, not only does the > response go to those in the Reply-To header, Yes it goes to everyone in the Reply-To header... > but that header is itself duplicated in my response? Egads, no! Why would you think that? It goes to the list and to the OP with whatever you have set for your Reply-To for this account (usually blank)... > And the Reply-To header is also carried through if I use Reply All? > That header inheritance is the part I didn't think was necessarily > happening. I'd have to experiment with how it behaves with a Reply-To when Reply All is clicked... I imagine some clients may behave differently... I didn't say it would be perfect, but at least any responses to the OP's initial question would go to both the list and the OP (if the Reply-To is set properly. And yes, you can set this manually if you like... -- Best regards, Charles -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] unsubscribed posters
On 10/21/2010 8:14 PM, Harold Fuchs wrote: > "Barbara Duprey" wrote in message > news:4cc0ba20.70...@onr.com... >> Well now, that's *very* interesting! I clearly haven't used forums in >> too long, I've never seen this. It still doesn't help with a forum >> analog of this conversation, though, since I didn't originate this >> thread. > In the web forums I've used it has *not* been the default. Usually it is a user preference - so you could set it to automatically default to auto-subscribing you to any threads you reply to, and some even allow you to auto-subscribe to all new threads... > In other words I've had to remember to tick the box to get automatic > mail notifications. Go peruse your user prefs for your account... you might be surprised... -- Best regards, Charles -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] unsubscribed posters
On 10/21/2010 6:28 PM, Jean Hollis Weber wrote: > Many forums, and wiki pages, allow you to tick a box to "watch" them, > even if you didn't originate them, and then you'll get a notification of > each response. I agree, though, that it's a nuisance to not have the > response itself show up in one's email, but only the notification. Some also contain the posted content - for example, the Wilders Security/ESET (NOD32) forums do this... http://www.wilderssecurity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=15 -- Best regards, Charles -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] unsubscribed posters
"Barbara Duprey" wrote in message news:4cc0ba20.70...@onr.com... On 10/20/2010 11:50 PM, Drew Jensen wrote: Every web forum I know of send notification email to the original poster whenever a response is posted to a thread they created. Well now, that's *very* interesting! I clearly haven't used forums in too long, I've never seen this. It still doesn't help with a forum analog of this conversation, though, since I didn't originate this thread. With that in mind there is no real difference between traditional mail lists and web forums for the majority of end user support questions. In the web forums I've used it has *not* been the default. In other words I've had to remember to tick the box to get automatic mail notifications. But that's a once-only thing as far as *my* questions are concerned; you do it when you register. I don't *know* but I suppose it could be set as the default behaviour when the forum is initially established. In a different thread I suggested that registering LibreOffice automatically registers you for the Forum and, in addition, a Support button on LibO's toolbar takes the registered user directly to that forum with the "automatically send me e-mail answers" option pre-set. If the user didn't register LibO then that Support button simply displays text about registering and getting support. -- Harold Fuchs London, England -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] unsubscribed posters
On Thu, 2010-10-21 at 17:09 -0500, Barbara Duprey wrote: > On 10/20/2010 11:50 PM, Drew Jensen wrote: > > Every web forum I know of send notification email to the original poster > > whenever a response is posted to a thread they created. > > Well now, that's *very* interesting! I clearly haven't used forums in too > long, I've never seen > this. It still doesn't help with a forum analog of this conversation, though, > since I didn't > originate this thread. Many forums, and wiki pages, allow you to tick a box to "watch" them, even if you didn't originate them, and then you'll get a notification of each response. I agree, though, that it's a nuisance to not have the response itself show up in one's email, but only the notification. > >> I'm trying to learn about wikis so I can > >> host and manage one on this subject, but I'd gladly defer to somebody else > >> who can put one up on the > >> TDF site where it really belongs. Any takers? > > It's a wiki - be fearless..you can't really break it - well, not really > > Are you saying there's already a wiki page established that we could use to > collect all these > thoughts? Or that I could create a page off the TDF wiki (assuming I would be > able to get > appropriate authorization) and run with it? In either case, wonderful -- > what's the next step? > To edit a wiki page or add a page to the wiki, all you need is to register. No special permissions needed. Go to any wiki page and look in the upper right-hand corner for Login/Register. You'll get a standard confirmation email, which you have to respond to. --Jean -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] unsubscribed posters
On 10/20/2010 11:50 PM, Drew Jensen wrote: On Wed, 2010-10-20 at 19:55 -0500, Barbara Duprey wrote: Howdy Barbara I don't have anything against forums (though I hope we can avoid having two top-level ones, as for OOo, and careful planning is needed in determining the subforums). The main difference, which is a positive for some and a negative for others, A breif look at some numbers - and ideas for how we offer mail lists/forums maybe. is that mailing lists are passive (people get mail when No, they must run some type of reader - this can include a notification agent in their OS or Browser. OK, not *totally* passive!:-) But I don't have to go to each website with forums of interest, log in, and navigate to each forum, and each thread in that forum, to see what's new. I get a nice presentation from my mail client (which I keep up basically all the time) showing all the new messages. In my case, I have all the OOo and LibO traffic directed to a common mailbox, so it's all there without my having to seek it out. I also have different mailboxes for each other list or family of lists I follow. Maybe I'm missing something about how I could use forums as easily? If not, for me the mailing lists require much less explicit activity on my part. it's posted) and forums/newsgroups require action to see messages. Every web forum I know of send notification email to the original poster whenever a response is posted to a thread they created. Well now, that's *very* interesting! I clearly haven't used forums in too long, I've never seen this. It still doesn't help with a forum analog of this conversation, though, since I didn't originate this thread. With that in mind there is no real difference between traditional mail lists and web forums for the majority of end user support questions. The vast number of these people come ask a question or two, they desire a timely reply and if the are helped they may not come to ask another question in a long time, if ever again. The number of new joins and the number of new topics being in synch is a result of this. Here is the en only forums status as of a few minutes ago: http://oucv.org/images/usooo-frm-daily.png If you analyze the mailing list archives at OO.o for number of posts to email addresses this is a huge distribution difference. If you do the same analyses on the 10 years of OooForum posts and the last 5 years of the fr forum at u.s.oo.o and the 3 years for the remaining user.services forums the numbers break down quite nearly identical to the mailing lists in distribution. In the last 3 years the user.services forum has had 35,000 plus people that signed up, asked their 2.x questions and most I think got a reasonable answer in a reasonable amount of time. http://oucv.org/images/usooo-frm-totals.png You mentioned two top level forums, actually that is two English top level. So for overall activity you need to, almost, double those figures - there is a percentage of people that cross post questions, but it is not particularly high, or at least was not last time I took the time to try an count it (about 2 years ago..and it was minimal< 15% of topics as best I could gather) So take that number, 35,000 and make it ~60,000 people that would of subscribed / and want to very quickly un-subscribe / from the ML, 20,000 more a year. Wow! I knew I didn't want to force ML subscription for (most likely) short-term users, but these figures are fascinating. I do, myself, which may be why I see the balance between the two mechanisms differently than you. In that regard, the modification of the Reply-To is, Yes I agree the current footer on the ML should be changed IMO But the key is, even if people have to subscribe, don't make it so they are required to un-subscribe, necessarily. I think, more likely to give a false sense of security than to fix the problem of people not getting responses they would benefit from. However, there's an approach I hope we can agree on, which is having the moderator send an unsubscribed OP a message that, among other things, tells them how to use a page like the one Drew has developed (http://oucv.org/tdf.html) to follow their threads on nabble without having to subscribe. ;-/ or anyone wanting to help.. Hooray! I'm definitely willing to help. If we had a similar page for OOo, it would make an enormous difference there, as well. Why not - http://oucv.org/oooext.html I did not setup that nabble archive, and can't change settings - if you back up there to the openoffice level you are actually looking at a flat view of the users ML at oo.o - the others are available also, but I did not find a decent forum/sub-forum view. I also think there are possibilities in creating sublists in parallel with the subforums; the main thing I'm concerned about here is getting into lots of redirection from the "beginning" list/forum to the subs, unless it's really necessary because the question dr
Re: [tdf-discuss] unsubscribed posters
On 10/21/2010 12:02 AM, Drew Jensen wrote: If we had a similar page for OOo, it would make an enormous difference there, as well. Why not - http://oucv.org/oooext.html I did not setup that nabble archive, and can't change settings - if you back up there to the openoffice level you are actually looking at a flat view of the users ML at oo.o - the others are available also, but I did not find a decent forum/sub-forum view. actually - with the sub-forum view... http://openoffice.2283327.n4.nabble.com/OpenOffice-f2721033.subapps.html Yes, I found that once -- but I wasn't sure if those "magic numbers" for the OOo lists were consistent over time. But if they are, then it would be nice to have a FAQ about using this mechanism that could be linked to in an initial communication with an unsubscribed OP. I've hesitated to use nabble in a standard response because there seems to be no "official" sanction of this mechanism on the OOo website. -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] unsubscribed posters
On 10/21/2010 9:52 AM, Charles Marcus wrote: On 2010-10-20 8:55 PM, Barbara Duprey wrote: In that regard, the modification of the Reply-To is, I think, more likely to give a false sense of security than to fix the problem of people not getting responses they would benefit from. I totally disagree. The only time this wouldn't work is if someone is using a mail client taht doesn't respect the Reply-To header. As has been shown, virtually all of the most popular mail clients in fact do respect it, so the times that it didn't work would be the corner cases, not the norm. However, since Florian has apparently investigated this and discovered that the current list software cannot do this, it is a moot point... :( I'd just like to make sure I'm clear on this, OK? If I get a message with a Reply-To header, and respond to it using Reply, not only does the response go to those in the Reply-To header, but that header is itself duplicated in my response? And the Reply-To header is also carried through if I use Reply All? That header inheritance is the part I didn't think was necessarily happening. -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] [SC] Meeting Minutes 2010-10-20 Available
Hi everyone, the most recent Steering Committee meeting minutes are available: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/Steering_Committee_Meetings#Minutes_2010-10-20 Agenda 2010-10-20: * Update on: get discussion about community structure started (how to define members?) * Website: should we open a "LibreOffice" website having more product-focus as soon as cms is available * do we want to have developer / user sites seperated or joint as at OOo? * discuss results of the talk between Cor and Martin and consequences for OOo Council members. See OOo council minutes, item 2010-10-14#1 Enjoy ;-) Regards, Christoph -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] unsubscribe [was: Multilingualism...]
On 2010-10-21 4:38 PM, Friedrich Strohmaier wrote: > Youre right *but* AFAIK the digest mails are a container of the mails > sent during the day. And *those* single mails hold the footer of the > original one posted. Ahh... right. forgot about that... interesting problem... Probably should add the unsub instructions to both the footer *and* header then for digest emails... > But probably I'm wrong with this because I never order digest mails. > > So maybe You can correct me :o)) No, you're probably right... :) -- Best regards, Charles -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] unsubscribe [was: Multilingualism...]
Hi Charles, *, Charles Marcus schrieb: >On 2010-10-20 6:41 PM, Bernhard Dippold wrote: >> This line has been modified because there is a different way to >> unsubscribe from digest lists. We had a thread here complaining >> about digest users couldn't unsubscribe at all. > ?? That makes no sense. Each list has it's *own* footer, right (if > not, why?)? So each list should have the correct unsubscribe link at > the bottom. Youre right *but* AFAIK the digest mails are a container of the mails sent during the day. And *those* single mails hold the footer of the original one posted. But probably I'm wrong with this because I never order digest mails. So maybe You can correct me :o)) Gruß/regards -- Friedrich Ansprechpartner / contact person for the "PrOOo-Box" german language "best Office Suite ever" and more on CD/DVD http://prooo-box.org -- footer updated on 2010-10-07 -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] UI proposal
Hi Michel, 2010/10/21 Michel Gagnon > Le 2010-10-21 03:25, David Nelson a écrit : > > Hi, :-) >> >> On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 16:50, David Nelson >> wrote: >> >>> If you're a power user, one might prefer to have a purely >>> icon/tooltip-based interface? >>> >> Actually, one program UI that I personally find nicely laid out is >> Inkscape... Obviously, this would be more of a power user's layout, >> and you could only really offer it if LibO had themes/skins, because >> it probably wouldn't be to everyone's taste... >> >> David Nelson >> >> > > Very nice indeed. However, I still haven't found a way to do anything > significant with it whereas I have no such problems with Draw or Visio. > But it brings the other question: Inkscape is also another vector-based > program that works with an open format. So should't LibreOffice drop the > Draw module and work instead toward a full integration with Inkscape? I'd like LibO to keep Draw. As I see it, Draw and Inkscape are suited for different purposes. Draw is mainly for page layout/design (like MS Publisher) and maybe a little for diagramming (like MS Visio). Inkscape, on the other hand, has always been more oriented towards graphic designers Still, it'd be great if LibO had perfect SVG support. :) > > > > > -- > Michel Gagnon > Montréal (Québec, Canada) > > -- > E-mail to > discuss+h...@documentfoundation.orgfor > instructions on how to unsubscribe > List archives are available at > http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ > All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > deleted > > -- Q: Why is this email five sentences or less? A: http://five.sentenc.es -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] [SC] How to define "Membership" within TDF?
Ciao Gianluca, Le Thu, 21 Oct 2010 14:37:14 +0200, Gianluca Turconi a écrit : > Il 20/10/2010 17.37, Charles-H. Schulz ha scritto: > > yes. So now, do you like what you see?:-) > > Well, generally speaking, yes. > > I'm just a bit worried about the point of view about membership > expressed by Drew Jensen. > > Developers are surely a part of the Community core, but just a part. Yes, but I think, at least in the part for the lobbying, that Drew thinks of that as something that amounts to what I call advocacy. I do lobbying professionally, and it involves expertise, writing papers, documents, filing forms, following strategies, etc. And its a lot of work, so if I were to do this -I'm not doing it for TDF- I would expect, to see my contribution recognized, and would have tangible evidences to show to the membership committee. > > I've read your opinion too and I hope it will definitely prevail in > the end by quantifying the "intellectual" contribution needed in > order to join TDF. > > I simply don't want to see a division and disagreement between devs > and laymen as a respin of the previous division between corporate > employees and volunteers in the OOo Community. While I do absolutely agree that there should be no divide, (heck, I'm no developer myself), I also think that certain activities are appreciated but cannot constitute the only basis for membership consideration. But here, we're going down into details, which is good. Best, Charles. > > Regards, -- Charles-H. Schulz Membre du Comité exécutif The Document Foundation. -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Mac Java update breaks LibreOffice
The latest Java update for Macs breaks Java (1.6.0_22) use in LibreOffice and OOo. There is a OOo bug report (it is a showstopper for OOo 3.3) : http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=115180 Also has been discussed on: http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=34853#p161115 -- - Larry I. Gusaas Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com "An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Adoption of LibreOffice
There's an interesting article about OpenOffice 3.3 beta in Computer Weekly (the world's first weekly computer magazine) this week. It's at http://www.computerweekly.com/galleries/243287-1/First-look-at-OpenOffice-beta.htm. It's 10 short comments each accompanied by a photo. The 5th "slide" has a link to http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Major_OpenOffice.org_Deployments which, as the blurb there says "This page will track public information on major OpenOffice.org deployments". Perhaps LibreOffice should follow suit??? Is the TDF attempting to have LibO supersede OOo in any/all of those places? Will it? The blurb referred to above also says "This page does not track ODF legislation or deployments. See the ODF adoption page on OpenDocument XML.org for that. " Should the TDF pages link to those also? Or perhaps they already do, from somewhere I haven't found??? -- Harold Fuchs London, England -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] UI proposal
Hi, :-) On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 21:58, Michel Gagnon wrote: > Very nice indeed. However, I still haven't found a way to do anything > significant with it whereas I have no such problems with Draw or Visio. > But it brings the other question: Inkscape is also another vector-based > program that works with an open format. So should't LibreOffice drop the > Draw module and work instead toward a full integration with Inkscape? I was just thinking about the form of the UI. :-) David Nelson -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Unsubscribe
On 2010-10-21 1:10 AM, Florian Effenberger wrote: > Charles Marcus wrote on 2010-10-20 14.08: >> Well, as a blanket statement that isn't true of mailman... >> >> One example: >> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-us...@python.org/msg37624.html >> >> MM3 is going to be mucho better in this regard... > at least with the current Mailman stable release (2.1), we would have to > use a shared password per list, and this doesn't scale well. Moderation > via e-mail is much more comfortable, but that feature is not available > at least in current Mailman stable versions. Same is true for virtual > domains - Mailman 2.x doesn't allow the same list name in two domains > (e.g. disc...@de and disc...@fr). Therefore, going with Mailman at the > moment doesn't sound like an option. All true and understood... but since MM3 will address all of these issues (and then some), I think it should be a part of the future plans (to migrate the lists to it once it is released and stable)... but thats only because I'm partial to it... :) -- Best regards, Charles -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Supporting customers (ordinary users)
On 2010-10-20 9:20 PM, MiguelAngel wrote: > On 21/10/10 2:40, Jean Hollis Weber wrote: >> I am appalled at the level of hostility and contempt being >> expressed by a few people regarding the support of ordinary users >> -- our customers. >> >> Why are we expending so much time and energy to produce the best >> office software, if we're not going to do our best to support our >> customers at their own level of knowledge and experience? > +1 As one of those this comment is probably aimed at, I think you are mistaking a desire to fix what I see as having been a long standing problem with the way the OOo email lists have always worked as 'hostility and contempt', as that is absolutely not what I have been trying to get across, and I haven't seen anyone else post anything that qualifies as 'hostile and contemptuous' either. I want normal users to have a *better* experience with LibO support. So, my apologies if anything I said was worded badly enough to warrant such a misinterpretation. -- Best regards, Charles -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Supporting customers (ordinary users)
El 20/10/10 19:40, Jean Hollis Weber escribió: If you don't want to expend the time and energy to support people at their own level, that's okay. Just don't get directly involved with users; do something else. --Jean In Mexico, three companies are working on updating our solutions to LibreOffice from OpenOffice.org. When you release the final version will be ready to give support. -- Mi Office genera: Seguridad, Confianza y Ahorro J. Eduardo Moreno TOKONHU de México 044 55 2748 4840 -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] unsubscribed posters
On 2010-10-20 8:55 PM, Barbara Duprey wrote: > In that regard, the modification of the Reply-To is, I think, more > likely to give a false sense of security than to fix the problem of > people not getting responses they would benefit from. I totally disagree. The only time this wouldn't work is if someone is using a mail client taht doesn't respect the Reply-To header. As has been shown, virtually all of the most popular mail clients in fact do respect it, so the times that it didn't work would be the corner cases, not the norm. However, since Florian has apparently investigated this and discovered that the current list software cannot do this, it is a moot point... :( -- Best regards, Charles -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Send Messages via Gmane?
On 2010-10-21 1:23 AM, Florian Effenberger wrote: >> Can the Reply-to header not be fixed (by the list manager software or by >> an associated script) to include the OP if that OP is not subscribed? > > if someone submits a patch for mlmmj, our mailing lists software, then > yes. Otherwise no. Ok, well, that kills that possibility... -- Best regards, Charles -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Send Messages via Gmane?
On 2010-10-21 1:22 AM, Florian Effenberger wrote: > Charles Marcus wrote on 2010-10-20 19.44: >> Bummer... my point is that non-subbed posters should simply be sent a >> REJECT message with instructions on how to subscribe - or better, a nice >> instructive web page with detailed instructions on the lists, and a >> subscribe option directly on the web page. >> >> Imho, it is a huge waste of time and resources to try to deal with >> moderating non-subbed posts/posters. > that would widely open the door for spamming, and backscatter stuff, > effectively leading to very soonish blacklisting of our machine. I used the term 'REJECT' not 'BOUNCE' - you use a REJECT with a custom rejection message. This in no way opens the door for spamming/backscatter or risk of being blacklisted. -- Best regards, Charles -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] unsubscribe [was: Multilingualism...]
On 2010-10-20 6:41 PM, Bernhard Dippold wrote: > Florian is already working on a solution using a webform or something > like that, so please keep your mood and wait a bit longer. > > I know that it is unsatisfactory to see problems addressed earlier to > reappear - but even if the day would have 36 hours, Florian would have > not the time to solve everything during one week... Oh, I know that, and Florians and everyone else's efforts are much appreciated - I wasn't complaining, just pointing it out... -- Best regards, Charles -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] unsubscribe [was: Multilingualism...]
On 2010-10-20 6:41 PM, Bernhard Dippold wrote: > This line has been modified because there is a different way to > unsubscribe from digest lists. We had a thread here complaining about > digest users couldn't unsubscribe at all. ?? That makes no sense. Each list has it's *own* footer, right (if not, why?)? So each list should have the correct unsubscribe link at the bottom. -- Best regards, Charles -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] UI proposal
Le 2010-10-21 03:25, David Nelson a écrit : Hi, :-) On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 16:50, David Nelson wrote: If you're a power user, one might prefer to have a purely icon/tooltip-based interface? Actually, one program UI that I personally find nicely laid out is Inkscape... Obviously, this would be more of a power user's layout, and you could only really offer it if LibO had themes/skins, because it probably wouldn't be to everyone's taste... David Nelson Very nice indeed. However, I still haven't found a way to do anything significant with it whereas I have no such problems with Draw or Visio. But it brings the other question: Inkscape is also another vector-based program that works with an open format. So should't LibreOffice drop the Draw module and work instead toward a full integration with Inkscape? -- Michel Gagnon Montréal (Québec, Canada) -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] unsubscribed posters
Le 2010-10-21 01:26, Florian Effenberger a écrit : Hi, Charles Marcus wrote on 2010-10-20 14.18: (including lists) for the long run... Anyway, at a minimum, I would dearly love to see simple list specific pages for subscribing/unsubscribing. Mailman generates these out of the box, so its not like this should be a lot of work - unless mlmmj doesn't provide such pages? If not, then I think it would be worth it to make the move to mailman just for that. mlmmj doesn't provide these pages, that's correct. We need to find another way of creating it. Switching to Mailman is not possible for the reasons stated earlier, them being 1. missing virtual domain support (no same list name at multiple domains) 2. no easy moderation via e-mail. Florian I know a few other lists that allow subscription via a web page and that also allow one to be registered but with web-only access. That would allow the occasional poster to subscribe and see answers on the web without getting swamped by e-mail for ever and ever... -- Michel Gagnon Montréal (Québec, Canada) -- http://mgagnon.net -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] [SC] How to define "Membership" within TDF?
Il 20/10/2010 17.37, Charles-H. Schulz ha scritto: yes. So now, do you like what you see?:-) Well, generally speaking, yes. I'm just a bit worried about the point of view about membership expressed by Drew Jensen. Developers are surely a part of the Community core, but just a part. I've read your opinion too and I hope it will definitely prevail in the end by quantifying the "intellectual" contribution needed in order to join TDF. I simply don't want to see a division and disagreement between devs and laymen as a respin of the previous division between corporate employees and volunteers in the OOo Community. Regards, -- Gianluca Turconi -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Send Messages via Gmane?
- Original Message - From: "Florian Effenberger" Newsgroups: gmane.comp.documentfoundation.discuss To: Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 6:22 AM Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Send Messages via Gmane? Hi, Charles Marcus wrote on 2010-10-20 19.44: Bummer... my point is that non-subbed posters should simply be sent a REJECT message with instructions on how to subscribe - or better, a nice instructive web page with detailed instructions on the lists, and a subscribe option directly on the web page. Imho, it is a huge waste of time and resources to try to deal with moderating non-subbed posts/posters. that would widely open the door for spamming, and backscatter stuff, effectively leading to very soonish blacklisting of our machine. Didn't seem to happen with the OOo users@ list. Hopefully the moderators will be bright enough to recognise and reject spam. -- Harold Fuchs London, England -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Supporting customers (ordinary users)
"Sebastian Spaeth" wrote in message news:87tykgrn1e@sspaeth.de... On Thu, 21 Oct 2010 10:40:31 +1000, Jean Hollis Weber wrote: I am appalled at the level of hostility and contempt being expressed by a few people regarding the support of ordinary users -- our customers. While I agree that organizing good user support is important, I feel that most of the discussions going on fall into the category bike-shedding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bikeshed) rather than being I'm not sure that the analogy you draw between the bikeshed concept and the debate in these threads is valid. We aren't mainly discussing the colour of the bikeshed (although there is some of that I admit). Instead we're trying to discuss whether to build a bikeshed or a multi-storey carpark. It started with the carpark but then a few people said "hey, wait a minute there are more cyclists out there and they are more in need of shelter" to which the carparkers said "well they can use the carpark too" and the reply came back "no, the ramp is too steep for them to cycle up" and then we had "well, they can *&^%$ well carry their bikes up the ramp, I despise people who can't carry their own bike". So now I think we've agreed to build a bike shed. Trouble is we have nails and screwdrivers instead of either nails and hammers or screws and screwdrivers. very productive or constructive. I have to admit I have fallen into that trap too and replied more often than I should have, but if you look at the amount of energy spent on discussing the email-list implementation specifics or things relating to gmane. Heck, do we really think a user not willing to subscribe to a list would ever use gmane to post a question? Please keep the high-level discussions here, and create a wiki page for each specific topic, such as the preferred mailing list options and go wild there so that people knowledgable and interested can work that out as an "expert group". This list has become way too active and way too uninteresting for me to wanting to follow it any longer. And that is a bad sign. Sebastian P.S. Sorry for replying to this mail, I did not mean to pick someone out, this is just a general impression. P.P.S. Will shut up now. -- Harold Fuchs London, England -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Supporting customers (ordinary users)
On Thu, 21 Oct 2010 10:40:31 +1000, Jean Hollis Weber wrote: > I am appalled at the level of hostility and contempt being expressed by > a few people regarding the support of ordinary users -- our customers. While I agree that organizing good user support is important, I feel that most of the discussions going on fall into the category bike-shedding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bikeshed) rather than being very productive or constructive. I have to admit I have fallen into that trap too and replied more often than I should have, but if you look at the amount of energy spent on discussing the email-list implementation specifics or things relating to gmane. Heck, do we really think a user not willing to subscribe to a list would ever use gmane to post a question? Please keep the high-level discussions here, and create a wiki page for each specific topic, such as the preferred mailing list options and go wild there so that people knowledgable and interested can work that out as an "expert group". This list has become way too active and way too uninteresting for me to wanting to follow it any longer. And that is a bad sign. Sebastian P.S. Sorry for replying to this mail, I did not mean to pick someone out, this is just a general impression. P.P.S. Will shut up now. -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Send Messages via Gmane?
On Wed, 20 Oct 2010 14:17:47 -0400, Marc Paré wrote: > If there is so much time wasted dealing with non-subscribers, then we > need to re-evaluate our lists and take a close look at what we are doing > wrong. Our LibO suite is so popular that so many new users call on us > for help. Then we should do, clearly, the opposite and open our lists > without sign-ups and offer our help to everyone unconditionally. There > is no need to create a "gated" community. Many of the questions are re-occurring. May I suggest looking at an instance of stackoverflow.com (we implemented that as help.openstreetmap.org) which helps to categorize questions, rate questions and answers and have the best answers easily be findable? Also it does not require someone to sign up for a mailing list. Thanks for considering. Sebastian -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Send Messages via Gmane?
"Florian Effenberger" wrote in message news:4cbfcdf9.4000...@documentfoundation.org... Hi, Charles Marcus wrote on 2010-10-20 19.44: Bummer... my point is that non-subbed posters should simply be sent a REJECT message with instructions on how to subscribe - or better, a nice instructive web page with detailed instructions on the lists, and a subscribe option directly on the web page. Imho, it is a huge waste of time and resources to try to deal with moderating non-subbed posts/posters. that would widely open the door for spamming, and backscatter stuff, effectively leading to very soonish blacklisting of our machine. Florian Never happened to the OOo users@ list. -- Harold Fuchs London, England -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Send Messages via Gmane?
"Florian Effenberger" wrote in message news:4cbfd099.7050...@documentfoundation.org... Hi, Larry Gusaas wrote on 2010-10-19 21.09: The following is from http://gmane.org/post-details.php . Note "the MAIL FROM envelope has to be someth...@gmane.org. It is currently the address that Gmane is subscribed to". I still don't get it - if I now whitelist *...@gmane.org for sending, this would open the door to anyone who forges the MAIL FROM to spam these lists. Are there any more detailed instructions, like filtering for incoming MX servers, signatures and the like, to ensure the message really comes from GMANE? Florian I think you'll find that *all* messages coming from Gmane have "X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/"; in the headers. See http://gmane.org/conv.php for details. -- Harold Fuchs London, England -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] UI proposal
Hi, :-) On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 16:50, David Nelson wrote: > If you're a power user, one might prefer to have a purely > icon/tooltip-based interface? Actually, one program UI that I personally find nicely laid out is Inkscape... Obviously, this would be more of a power user's layout, and you could only really offer it if LibO had themes/skins, because it probably wouldn't be to everyone's taste... David Nelson -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] [SC] How to define "Membership" within TDF?
on Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 10:29 PM, Drew Jensen meant to write: - sorry, the pronoun 'you' - I was _not_ talking about you the individual there. > > Ahh, yes of course Sorry! Silly me ! > Best wishes, Drew -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] [SC] How to define "Membership" within TDF?
On Wed, 20 Oct 2010 16:36:10 +0200, Mike Dupont wrote: > I think the measurement is : > > 1. what will it cost if you have to rewrite the authors code and all > derived works. > 2. what if you just remove the code That doesn't work for contributions other than code, e.g.: - artists - Usability testers - Template creators - Wiki janitors and maintainers - Server admins for LO - translator - bug wrangler - people manning LO conference booths There are just too many ways to contribute besides "lines of code". E.g. OpenEmbedded requires three existing members to "+1" a membership request in order to accept it, which is a much softer and subjective criteria. To prevent hijacking one could combine this with a veto possibility by the majority of the SC or something if one would like that. Sebastian -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Send Messages via Gmane?
On 2010/10/20 11:33 PM Florian Effenberger wrote: Hi, Larry Gusaas wrote on 2010-10-19 21.09: The following is from http://gmane.org/post-details.php . Note "the MAIL FROM envelope has to be someth...@gmane.org. It is currently the address that Gmane is subscribed to". I still don't get it - if I now whitelist *...@gmane.org for sending, this would open the door to anyone who forges the MAIL FROM to spam these lists. Are there any more detailed instructions, like filtering for incoming MX servers, signatures and the like, to ensure the message really comes from GMANE? Florian I only know what I have read from gmane's web site. I would think instructions on how gmane would deliver posts to the list would have been given at the time it was set up. I have never seen any spam to a list I follow through Gmane that was injected by Gmane. -- _ Larry I. Gusaas *Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com "An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese * -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
