Re: [tdf-discuss] [UI] Splash screen
Hi Mirek, On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 5:42 AM, Mirek M. maz...@gmail.com wrote: Hi everyone, Here's my proposal on how to replace the splash screen: http://clickortap.wordpress.com/2010/10/28/splash/. It's fantastic to see your creativity being unleashed here. I really hope we can see some of these ideas in LibreOffice in the near future. The start centre and splash screen are topics that I'm really interested in, especially since Christoph put forward a hybrid proposal on the OOo wiki page he just mentioned. The Start Center would lose the standard chrome of LibO and stand as a very lightweight application that opens while LibO loads, removing the need for a splash screen. For individual applications (where the Start Center is skipped over), there would be an undistracting notification that the app is opening. The *perceived* speed of startup is something that should really be considered by the designers here. The perception (rather than an objectively measured reality) is what counts. John Wayne of Mozilla made this clear when he wrote: Firefox is fast, no doubt about it. But for many people it feels pretty slow when starting up. Chrome, while only marginally faster than Firefox at starting, feels much faster. By analyzing videos of these start-up processes we can start to understand what makes Firefox feel slow. [1] I wonder if a similar analysis could be done with LibreOffice to identify design strategies that enhance the user experience (felt experience) of LibreOffice's start up. Mirek, you've put forward some great ideas and possible solutions, but I think we should analyse the problem in more depth first (if you have any data or did any research on this, please share it with us). Regards, Ivan. [1] http://www.johnwaynehill.com/blog/2010/06/16/perceived-speed-performace/ -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
[tdf-discuss] Steering Committe Meeting Minutes 2010-10-27
Hi, Minutes from our last Steering Commitee call are now online at the wiki. Topics of the call were: * Update on: discussion about community structure started (how to define members?) * Website: decision on CMS to use * Decision on where to have public SC discussions * Review and prioritize a list of next steps, discuss where to make this public * Update on development status / 3.3 schedule * open discussion This was the first time that we had people from the community listening to our discussion. I hope we did not give a to bad impression of our English skills :) Actually we had only one native English speaker on the call. The last item open discussion was a quick decision during the call - we opened the microphones for those people who just were listening until then and asked them for questions at the IRC channel. Seems that this worked quite well, as we got some questions, that could be answered. I hope, we can continue this way - but I'd expect that there will be times where we have to table the answers for some later calls. best regards, André -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] [UI] Splash screen
On 29 October 2010 08:50, Ivan M. iv...@patentpending.co.nz wrote: Hi Mirek, The *perceived* speed of startup is something that should really be considered by the designers here. The perception (rather than an objectively measured reality) is what counts. Totally agree with you. To make LibO faster it might be possible to hide the splash screen a little before the main windows appears and move the load of some modules/libs after the main app is on the screen. That could reduce the perceived load time of a at least couple of secs. Ercole -- Freedom is nothing else but a chance to be better. A.Camus -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Steering Committe Meeting Minutes 2010-10-27
Hi, On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 9:44 AM, Andre Schnabel andre.schna...@gmx.net wrote: Hi, Minutes from our last Steering Commitee call are now online at the wiki. Topics of the call were: * Update on: discussion about community structure started (how to define members?) * Website: decision on CMS to use * Decision on where to have public SC discussions * Review and prioritize a list of next steps, discuss where to make this public * Update on development status / 3.3 schedule * open discussion This was the first time that we had people from the community listening to our discussion. I hope we did not give a to bad impression of our English skills :) Actually we had only one native English speaker on the call. The last item open discussion was a quick decision during the call - we opened the microphones for those people who just were listening until then and asked them for questions at the IRC channel. Seems that this worked quite well, as we got some questions, that could be answered. I hope, we can continue this way - but I'd expect that there will be times where we have to table the answers for some later calls. And here is the link :-) http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/Steering_Committee_Meetings#Minutes_2010-10-27 Kind regards Sophie -- Founding member of The Document Foundation -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Copyright Assignments the Document Foundation
- Original Message From: Cor Nouws oo...@nouenoff.nl To: discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Fri, October 29, 2010 2:22:03 AM Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Copyright Assignments the Document Foundation Hi all, BRM wrote (29-10-10 00:41) From: Thorsten Behrenst...@documentfoundation.org BRM wrote: The Linux Kernel guys don't require it; KDE E.v. does. Both methods have their pros and cons. Hi, just a very small correction here - KDE e.V. does not require it, it is optional to sign their FLA (a trait shared among other FLOSS projects, e.g. the Python Foundation acts similarly). Thank you for the correction. I thought they did from what I had read a while back. Yet another method to accomplish the same goal. What would be the use of people giving the option to share a CA or not. Just the fact that, in case for e.g. a licence update, you only have to contact x% of the contributors? It certainly reduces the burden. Otherwise you have to contact 100% of contributors, not all of which may be easy to find if at all. Ben -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [steering-discuss] LibO registration page gone?
On Fri, 2010-10-29 at 13:56 +0100, Michael Meeks wrote: Hi guys, On Thu, 2010-10-28 at 11:15 +0200, Florian Effenberger wrote: As not everyone might be on steering-discuss yet, forwarding it here We can discuss it on sc-discuss then So let me try to do that [ I believe I'm subscribed now ] Me too now. * Cons of registration page Agree with all of that. Another way of viewing this IMO, is that if it didn't already exist noone would suggest adding a dialog shown during startup in order to collect what I believe is very dubious and skewed information. e.g. I don't think a single Linux distribution that shipped OpenOffice.org left the dialog enabled, so noone using the OOo shipped with Debian/Ubuntu/Fedora/RHEL/Suse/etc was counted. C. -- E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/steering-discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Compiling in Windows
I'm not a programmer but something is puzzling me: why is LibreOffice compiled with MS VC++ compiler? This forces the installer to include the VC++ runtimes... Wouldn't it make more sense to use the FOSS compiler MinGW? -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Compiling-in-Windows-tp1792684p1792684.html Sent from the Discuss mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] UI proposal
2010/10/29 Marc Paré m...@marcpare.com: Le 2010-10-28 17:45, RGB ES a écrit : The only reason to see tab stops and other formatting codes is if you need to *interact* with them: if you have a good set of paragraph styles the ability to see tab stops and other formatting codes is useless. So, all the concepts presented in this thread seems to be geared towards direct formatting. If that's the case, I'm against it. While direct formatting *seems* to be good on two page school reports, it is a nightmare when you need to create complex and well structured documents. Writer have a good tradition of tools that helps the build of complex documents (styles, styles and more styles!). What I would like to see instead of more direct formatting tools, is a redesign of the way styles are defined to easy the learning curve of new users. Relying on styles is Writer's trademark. I think we need to give even more power to this trademark instead of going the route of MSWord. Just my 2 ¢ Yes, but from an instructional point of view in the classroom, the treatment of tabs in this manner would be welcomed. It would clearly illustrate the use of tabs to the majority of students who find it confusing. Marc If you only teach your students to use direct formatting, they will only use direct formatting afterwards: If you want to teach them how to properly use Writer, you need to teach them the correct use of styles since the beginning. I know, it is not easy, but it is more difficult to correct bad habits afterwards... BTW, tabs inside paragraph styles makes a lot more sense than tabs as formatting characters: when you know your paragraph style have, say, two tab stops at this and that position, it is not a surprise if the cursor jump there when you hit the tab key... after all, *you* set that position. But tab stops as direct formatting are IMO more difficult to explain because the same key will behave differently depending on where the cursor is: maybe the confusion comes from there. After all, *tab stops as direct formatting must be avoided on properly formatted documents* so why to spend time showing that problematic use? Because of didactics? I admit I'd never teach sorftware to a classroom (even if I maintain several guides and a book about Writer on Spanish), but I have more than 15 year of experience teaching physics and mathematics to all levels, from kids to university students, and my experience is that explaining difficult concepts the easy way with flashing didactic resources is always a bad practice: going to the point is more difficult, to the teacher non less than to the students, but it always gives better results on the long run. -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] UI proposal
I agree with you - I write my documents with LaTeX and there you really don't have direct formatting tools. The problem is, though, that tabs are a direct formatting tool by definition - you mark a passage and set your tab stop, just like the character a. It's not a property of your whole document. Indeed, if you want the same tab stop in several parts of the document, you have to do tedious work: remember the tab stop position, mark the passages you need it and manually set it. This is why I don't like tabs. The suggested improvement would let you place snap points (just like in Inkscape, yes) on the ruler - for the whole document, or for the page type you're currently using. Then, when you write text, you can place tabs by pressing tab and they can be snapped to a ruler by resizing them with the mouse - like that you can choose to take the next, the last or whatever snap point you want (note that this would break compatibility with MS Office since there you can only tab to the next tab stop). Another advantage would be that if you move such a snap point line, all tabs all over your document will follow - you don't have to repeat that for every paragraph. 2010/10/29 Jussi Silvonen jussi.silvo...@gmail.com: 2010/10/29 RGB ES rgb.m...@gmail.com Writer have a good tradition of tools that helps the build of complex documents (styles, styles and more styles!). What I would like to see instead of more direct formatting tools, is a redesign of the way styles are defined to easy the learning curve of new users. -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] UI proposal
Well, that's not the way I use tab stops on Writer ;)
Suppose you want to have a description(1): a lone word to the left
followed by a paragraph aligned as a block:
Word: Definition
.More definition
.More definition
Another: Definition
.More definition
.More definition
Then you set your paragraph style with space before text and a
negative indent for the first line (on Space and Indent tab) plus a
tab stop at a distance from margin equal to the space before text
you set before (on Tabs tab): bingo! Type the word to be defined,
press tab and start to type your definition. In this case (the only I
use) tab stops are part of the paragraph design, not direct
formatting.
(1) on LaTeX this is something like
\begin{description}
\item [{Word}] Definition and More definition
\item [{Another}] Definition and More definition
\end{description}
2010/10/29 Johannes Bausch johannes.bau...@gmail.com:
I agree with you - I write my documents with LaTeX and there you
really don't have direct formatting tools. The problem is, though,
that tabs are a direct formatting tool by definition - you mark a
passage and set your tab stop, just like the character a. It's not a
property of your whole document. Indeed, if you want the same tab stop
in several parts of the document, you have to do tedious work:
remember the tab stop position, mark the passages you need it and
manually set it. This is why I don't like tabs.
The suggested improvement would let you place snap points (just like
in Inkscape, yes) on the ruler - for the whole document, or for the
page type you're currently using. Then, when you write text, you can
place tabs by pressing tab and they can be snapped to a ruler by
resizing them with the mouse - like that you can choose to take the
next, the last or whatever snap point you want (note that this would
break compatibility with MS Office since there you can only tab to
the next tab stop).
Another advantage would be that if you move such a snap point line,
all tabs all over your document will follow - you don't have to repeat
that for every paragraph.
2010/10/29 Jussi Silvonen jussi.silvo...@gmail.com:
2010/10/29 RGB ES rgb.m...@gmail.com
Writer have a good tradition of tools that helps the build of complex
documents (styles, styles and more styles!).
What I would like to see instead of more direct formatting tools, is a
redesign of the way styles are defined to easy the learning curve of
new users.
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[tdf-discuss] About localization on Math
Math have localized names for Greek characters. I don't know which is the situation for other languages but the Spanish translations are simply horrible: for example, instead of épsilon (right spelling) you have epsilón (very wrong spelling: notice the different accent). There is a related issue on OOo issue tracker: http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=17485 use of accentuated characters in the formula editor I think that other than correct the misspelled words there should be an option (as in Calc for functions) to use the English names for Greek characters: at least, in this way people coming from LaTeX will not be at lost... What do you think? -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] [UI] Splash screen
El 29/10/10 05:10, Ercole Carpanetto escribió: The *perceived* speed of startup is something that should really be considered by the designers here. The perception (rather than an objectively measured reality) is what counts. Totally agree with you. To make LibO faster it might be possible to hide the splash screen a little before the main windows appears and move the load of some modules/libs after the main app is on the screen. That could reduce the perceived load time of a at least couple of secs. Ercole I agree 100% with this, Ercole! First, the idea of hide splash screen and to be appear the main window as quickly as possible is genial. Second, if the libraries are charged in silent mode (for the user) this represents a real improvement, not only a perceptual improvement. :-) Congratulations for the ideas! -- ~~~ Prof. Román H. Gelbort http://www.piensalibre.com.ar Por 10 años con una oficina Open... desde ahora también LIBRE ~~~ -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] About localization on Math
I think that one (between many) errors when some translation is made, is the dubious use of the spoken language and the written form of the same, some many times seems to be more familiar but.. quite erroneous. You are entirely wright to point that the correct speling in Spanish is épsilon and in English epsilon ... but in some countries when people are talking and using this word they refert to it as el epsilón. RGB ES skrev 2010-10-29 18:05: Math have localized names for Greek characters. I don't know which is the situation for other languages but the Spanish translations are simply horrible: for example, instead of épsilon (right spelling) you have epsilón (very wrong spelling: notice the different accent). There is a related issue on OOo issue tracker: http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=17485 use of accentuated characters in the formula editor I think that other than correct the misspelled words there should be an option (as in Calc for functions) to use the English names for Greek characters: at least, in this way people coming from LaTeX will not be at lost... What do you think? -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Copyright Assignments the Document Foundation
- Original Message From: todd rme toddrme2...@gmail.com On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 9:28 AM, BRM bm_witn...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Cor Nouws oo...@nouenoff.nl To: discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Fri, October 29, 2010 2:22:03 AM Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Copyright Assignments the Document BRM wrote (29-10-10 00:41) BRM wrote: The Linux Kernel guys don't require it; KDE E.v. does. Both methods have their pros and cons. Hi, just a very small correction here - KDE e.V. does not require it, it is optional to sign their FLA (a trait shared among other FLOSS projects, e.g. the Python Foundation acts similarly). Thank you for the correction. I thought they did from what I had read a while back. Yet another method to accomplish the same goal. What would be the use of people giving the option to share a CA or not. Just the fact that, in case for e.g. a licence update, you only have to contact x% of the contributors? It certainly reduces the burden. Otherwise you have to contact 100% of contributors, not all of which may be easy to find if at all. I don't mean to be morbid, but they may not even be alive. Which when we discover, may be good to offer the estate - the ability to hand-off copyright assignment so that: i) the estate can completely close out ii) the estate won't have to worry about being questioned about it in the future iii) the estate may not be aware of it to start with and may get closed out without anything happening; in which case local law determines what happens (yet another headache) Iv) the estate or successor-in-interest may not understand the question IANAL, $0.02 Ben -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Better defaults
On 2010-10-24 8:23 AM, RGB ES wrote: Another example: do you know anyone that use the send by email button? Most possible receivers nowadays still use msoffice so using that button have the only effect that new users come to forums asking why the people to whom they sent the file is not able to open it. I think it is better to completely hide that button. Better yet, when used open a prompt to send an OOo or MSO version of the file... -- Best regards, Charles -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Fwd: [users] I AM WITH OOo
On 2010-10-23 12:58 PM, M. Fioretti wrote: I'm very surprised you HAVE to use MS Office at University. Surely as long as your submissions are in the correct format, the University shouldn't give a damn what software you use Not true at all in the real world, due to not absolutely perfect compatibility (which is impossible to achieve). But there are just as many if not more compatibility issues between different versions of Microsoft Office as there between MSO and OOo. I smell a class action lawsuit opportunity... which is funny, coming from someone who advocates 'first killing all the lawyers'. -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] UI proposal
Jussi Silvonen wrote: 2010/10/29 RGB ES rgb.m...@gmail.com Writer have a good tradition of tools that helps the build of complex documents (styles, styles and more styles!). What I would like to see instead of more direct formatting tools, is a redesign of the way styles are defined to easy the learning curve of new users. I may be odd in this but at times all the beautiful automation in Styles just seems to get in the way! I would like to see Writer add a Typewriter Mode that turns off ALL the automation of Styles and lets you do a totally manual formatted document. Is there anyone else that agrees with me on this? -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] UI proposal
Robert Derman skrev 2010-10-29 21:59: Jussi Silvonen wrote: 2010/10/29 RGB ES rgb.m...@gmail.com Writer have a good tradition of tools that helps the build of complex documents (styles, styles and more styles!). What I would like to see instead of more direct formatting tools, is a redesign of the way styles are defined to easy the learning curve of new users. I may be odd in this but at times all the beautiful automation in Styles just seems to get in the way! I would like to see Writer add a Typewriter Mode that turns off ALL the automation of Styles and lets you do a totally manual formatted document. Is there anyone else that agrees with me on this? Hi, if you open the Help document (e.g. in Writer) and look after Manual or automatic formating you could fine how to write a ducument as if you are using a typerwriter My best regards Carlos -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Better defaults
Am 28.10.2010 09:52, schrieb Sveinn í Felli: Þann fim 28.okt 2010 07:09, skrifaði Valter Mura: In data mercoledì 27 ottobre 2010 21:41:20, Marc Paré ha scritto: Anyway, I think also that a request of registration during installation is acceptable. You can add, optionally, some check boxes to activate for mailing list subscriptions, eg. user, discuss, announce, and so on, so that the user who subscribe can receive info and news. This could be an idea, also. +1 Maybe such a popup, asking whether one would like to register and/or send usage data, should be activated a bit later than right after installation ? First time users may think it's a bit bullying/alienating having this coming up right after installation. If this pops up after some days or a certain number of launches, then the users have become a bit accustomed to the software and may thus be a bit less overwhelmed by this additional information. +1 regards, Erich -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] UI proposal
On Fri Oct 29 2010 12:59:05 GMT-0700 (PDT) Robert Derman wrote: Jussi Silvonen wrote: 2010/10/29 RGB ES rgb.m...@gmail.com Writer have a good tradition of tools that helps the build of complex documents (styles, styles and more styles!). What I would like to see instead of more direct formatting tools, is a redesign of the way styles are defined to easy the learning curve of new users. I may be odd in this but at times all the beautiful automation in Styles just seems to get in the way! I would like to see Writer add a Typewriter Mode that turns off ALL the automation of Styles and lets you do a totally manual formatted document. Is there anyone else that agrees with me on this? +1 -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] LibO program icon brainstorming
Hi all, The number of proposals has grown considerably enough to (IMO) justify their own page, so I have moved the proposals to the Branding section of the marketing wiki: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Branding/Mimetype_Icons/Proposals There's a link to the new page on the Marketing Ideas wiki page. Regards, Ivan. -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] [UI] Splash screen
El 29/10/10 05:10, Ercole Carpanetto escribió: The *perceived* speed of startup is something that should really be considered by the designers here. The perception (rather than an objectively measured reality) is what counts. A typeahead function would help improve the situation. On my slower portable computer, the most frustrating aspect is that I have to wait for 3-4 seconds after the empty document appears before the cursor starts to flash. If I type characters before that ( i.e. before LibreOffice is completely loaded), it often hangs and I have to force-quit and restart the program. -- Michel Gagnon Montréal (Québec, Canada) -- http://mgagnon.net -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] [UI] Splash screen
Hi Ivan, Mirek, all! I really would like to overcome my previous telegram style messages and to focus on topics like that I'm very much interested in. Sadly, time is still very limited, so (a bit late) a big thank you to all who invest a lot of time to shape these ideas (some of these are great, e.g. the page is an object idea). Back to the splash screen ... Am Freitag, den 29.10.2010, 19:50 +1300 schrieb Ivan M.: Hi Mirek, On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 5:42 AM, Mirek M. maz...@gmail.com wrote: Hi everyone, Here's my proposal on how to replace the splash screen: http://clickortap.wordpress.com/2010/10/28/splash/. It's fantastic to see your creativity being unleashed here. I really hope we can see some of these ideas in LibreOffice in the near future. The start centre and splash screen are topics that I'm really interested in, especially since Christoph put forward a hybrid proposal on the OOo wiki page he just mentioned. Aehm, do you mean this one? http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User:ChristophNoack/Drafts/WelcomeCenter_2010 The Start Center would lose the standard chrome of LibO and stand as a very lightweight application that opens while LibO loads, removing the need for a splash screen. For individual applications (where the Start Center is skipped over), there would be an undistracting notification that the app is opening. The *perceived* speed of startup is something that should really be considered by the designers here. [...] I wonder if a similar analysis could be done with LibreOffice to identify design strategies that enhance the user experience (felt experience) of LibreOffice's start up. Maybe serving as a starting point: There has been (much) work that has been done within OOo already. There is a dedicated project for improving the performance. For example, we (UX) did a survey to identify general problems concerning speed. And Frank worked on something called User Experience Index to rate perceived speed of the software. The project can be found here: http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Performance I have some ideas how this could be linked with automated testing to check perceived speed/slowness ... but maybe later :-) Mirek, you've put forward some great ideas and possible solutions, but I think we should analyse the problem in more depth first (if you have any data or did any research on this, please share it with us). Again, a starting point? Along with my Welcome Center 2010 idea, there has been some thinking on how the next StartCenter in OOo should be revised. Frank (the same person, UX team) collected information on the start-up process. (Oh, I see in the wiki page versioning that Mirek already helped with that ... cool!) http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User_Experience/Projects/Start-up_process So I wonder whether there is some interest to form some kind of interest group or even a dedicated UX team. At least, there might be better places than [tdf-discuss] ... or? Cheers, Christoph -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] UI proposal
Le 2010-10-28 17:45, RGB ES a écrit : ... While direct formatting *seems* to be good on two page school reports, it is a nightmare when you need to create complex and well structured documents. Writer have a good tradition of tools that helps the build of complex documents (styles, styles and more styles!). What I would like to see instead of more direct formatting tools, is a redesign of the way styles are defined to easy the learning curve of new users. Relying on styles is Writer's trademark. I think we need to give even more power to this trademark instead of going the route of MSWord. ... If you only teach your students to use direct formatting, they will only use direct formatting afterwards: If you want to teach them how to properly use Writer, you need to teach them the correct use of styles since the beginning. I know, it is not easy, but it is more difficult to correct bad habits afterwards... BTW, tabs inside paragraph styles makes a lot more sense than tabs as formatting characters... After all, *tab stops as direct formatting must be avoided on properly formatted documents* ... I am puzzled as to why you want to avoid any direct formatting. I am a power user and a great fan of style sheets; yet, as far as I am concerned, the great strength of style sheets is when something needs to be repeatable. So I will define paragraph styles, bullet styles and heading styles because similar paragraph configurations will appear more than once in my document. Likewise for legends or equations in a technical document. On the other hand, tables rarely repeat themselves: number and width of columns differ, some have text, others have numbers, etc. So a given style used in Table 1 won't be useful anywhere else in my document. So what do I do? I define a style for the table title and a font style for column headers and for the content. However, I typically will add tabs manually. Still it should be easier to understand how stylesheets work and how they are written. And some functions should be added. Amongst improvements I would like to see are: – better interactions between bullet styles and regular paragraph styles (or maybe a clearer explanation on how both work); – partial character styles (and maybe partial paragraph styles): for example, Strong (or accented) might simply defined as whatever paragraph style and font styles are already applied + Bold, and note might be defined as 85% of height in grey; – links and dependencies between styles that work all the time (right now, it is guess work); – we should also be able to add a condition to an existing style, not just a new one; – the possibility of having a paragraph style followed by another one should also work within cells, so the style used for column header would be automatically followed by the one used for column content, for example; – last but not least, page styles should be optionally linked to a base style (i.e. margins of my first page could then be automatically modified from the margins of my standard page). For compatibility, the same stylesheets should exist in Impress, with added features linked to paragraph animation. Imagine the ease of transfer if a standard paragraph -- bullet 1 level 2 paragraph would contain all the following: – in Writer: font: Bodoni 10 pt; bullet: n-dash ; indents: 1p6, -1p6, 0; spaces: 5pt, 0.95 li, 0; – in Calc:... – in Impress: font Helvetica Bold 16pt blue ; bullet: n-dash gold ; indents: 3p, -3p, 0; spaces: 12pt, 1.1li, 0; visual effect: slide from left in 2 seconds... -- Michel Gagnon Montréal (Québec, Canada) -- http://mgagnon.net -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] LibO program icon brainstorming
Hi Ivan, thanks for the cleanup! And ... Am Samstag, den 30.10.2010, 11:01 +1300 schrieb Ivan M.: Hi all, The number of proposals has grown considerably enough to (IMO) justify their own page, so I have moved the proposals to the Branding section of the marketing wiki: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Branding/Mimetype_Icons/Proposals There's a link to the new page on the Marketing Ideas wiki page. ... just a few words concerning your recent work: Absolutely great! And a bit more specific: * LibreOffice Banner: * Nice refinement, especially the slight emboss effect for the logo works great. Also the different shaped gradient works very well ... * I am only unsure whether the homogeneous background pattern is still able to repeat the document icon triangle idea. (It still reminds me of the stylish elevator in You Only Live Twice.). * However, I really this style - should this be the basis for the final LibO branding? (Without having any deadlines in mind). * Icons: Just a question - is the lighter region intended? Personally, it irritates me a bit (it is hard for my brain to come up with the 3D equivalent). To me, the first draft felt a bit better (except the slight gradient in the invers-S-element in the Draw icon). * Colors: Blue, green are great. For the orange, yellow and purple color, the lightest shadings seem to be different from its base color (e.g. the lightest orange looks a green on my computer). I'm sure you already invested some time, so this is intended, or? So, how to proceed? May we start to iterate the current LibO colors? Or do you think it might be helpful to further work on your file? At your service, so to say ;-) Cheers, Christoph -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] LibO program icon brainstorming
Le 2010-10-29 19:17, Christoph Noack a écrit : * Colors: Blue, green are great. For the orange, yellow and purple color, the lightest shadings seem to be different from its base color (e.g. the lightest orange looks a green on my computer). I'm sure you already invested some time, so this is intended, or? So, how to proceed? May we start to iterate the current LibO colors? Or do you think it might be helpful to further work on your file? At your service, so to say ;-) Cheers, Christoph I don't have that problem at home. However, I wonder why those lighter shades at the bottom of those Second Draft icons. -- Michel Gagnon Montréal (Québec, Canada) -- http://mgagnon.net -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] UI proposal
Le 2010-10-29 11:14, RGB ES a écrit : If you only teach your students to use direct formatting, they will only use direct formatting afterwards: If you want to teach them how to properly use Writer, you need to teach them the correct use of styles since the beginning. I know, it is not easy, but it is more difficult to correct bad habits afterwards... BTW, tabs inside paragraph styles makes a lot more sense than tabs as formatting characters: when you know your paragraph style have, say, two tab stops at this and that position, it is not a surprise if the cursor jump there when you hit the tab key... after all, *you* set that position. But tab stops as direct formatting are IMO more difficult to explain because the same key will behave differently depending on where the cursor is: maybe the confusion comes from there. After all, *tab stops as direct formatting must be avoided on properly formatted documents* so why to spend time showing that problematic use? Because of didactics? I admit I'd never teach sorftware to a classroom (even if I maintain several guides and a book about Writer on Spanish), but I have more than 15 year of experience teaching physics and mathematics to all levels, from kids to university students, and my experience is that explaining difficult concepts the easy way with flashing didactic resources is always a bad practice: going to the point is more difficult, to the teacher non less than to the students, but it always gives better results on the long run. I agree with teaching the students all about styling, however, in a typical Canadian classroom, at the primary level, there are 8 periods or instructional time per day and each instructional period last 40 minutes. With the academic load (programmes) that we teach, as well as taking into account class size (approximately 25-30 students per class), with in-class integration of special needs students as well as a ration of 11:1 students/computer this may prove a little daunting. It would perhaps, in this case, be more realistic to teach students concepts in direct formatting in the early academic years and when the students understanding and patience permits it at a later stage of their academic years, styling could be broached. It is more important to get the students to produce work than to spend time on styling when the students will not have enough understanding or patience to sit still for it. Let's not forget that the function could be turned off/on by the user whenever wished. Marc -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Better defaults
Le 2010-10-29 15:45, Charles Marcus a écrit : On 2010-10-24 8:23 AM, RGB ES wrote: Another example: do you know anyone that use the send by email button? Most possible receivers nowadays still use msoffice so using that button have the only effect that new users come to forums asking why the people to whom they sent the file is not able to open it. I think it is better to completely hide that button. Better yet, when used open a prompt to send an OOo or MSO version of the file... It already does this as you pick which format to send. Marc -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] UI proposal
2010/10/30 Michel Gagnon mic...@mgagnon.net: I am puzzled as to why you want to avoid any direct formatting. I am a power user and a great fan of style sheets; yet, as far as I am concerned, the great strength of style sheets is when something needs to be repeatable. So I will define paragraph styles, bullet styles and heading styles because similar paragraph configurations will appear more than once in my document. Likewise for legends or equations in a technical document. On the other hand, tables rarely repeat themselves: number and width of columns differ, some have text, others have numbers, etc. Number and width of columns are not controlled by styles. In fact you cannot control almost nothing from tables on any way within Writer, not even with autoformatted tables. Styles only apply to cell content, and to that I always try to avoid any direct formatting. – better interactions between bullet styles and regular paragraph styles (or maybe a clearer explanation on how both work); Agree – partial character styles (and maybe partial paragraph styles): for example, Strong (or accented) might simply defined as whatever paragraph style and font styles are already applied + Bold, and note might be defined as 85% of height in grey; Actually, that's the way character styles work right now: if you link your character style with Predefined and only change a few attributes, all other attributes will be inherited from the paragraph style. – the possibility of having a paragraph style followed by another one should also work within cells, so the style used for column header would be automatically followed by the one used for column content, for example; If you activate table headers (you need to insert the table from Insert - Table instead of using the toolbar button) Table header paragraph style is automatically applied to the header cells and Table content to all others. The system needs to be a lot more flexible, though. – last but not least, page styles should be optionally linked to a base style (i.e. margins of my first page could then be automatically modified from the margins of my standard page). 100 % agreement!!! For compatibility, the same stylesheets should exist in Impress, with added features linked to paragraph animation. Imagine the ease of transfer if a standard paragraph -- bullet 1 level 2 paragraph would contain all the following: – in Writer: font: Bodoni 10 pt; bullet: n-dash ; indents: 1p6, -1p6, 0; spaces: 5pt, 0.95 li, 0; – in Calc:... – in Impress: font Helvetica Bold 16pt blue ; bullet: n-dash gold ; indents: 3p, -3p, 0; spaces: 12pt, 1.1li, 0; visual effect: slide from left in 2 seconds... Yes, paragraph and character styles on Draw and Impress will be great! Let me add one thing: styles for Math I desperately need that (Ok, I'm exaggerating... ;) ) -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] UI proposal
Le 2010-10-29 20:12, RGB ES a écrit : 2010/10/30 Michel Gagnonmic...@mgagnon.net: I am puzzled as to why you want to avoid any direct formatting. I am a power user and a great fan of style sheets; yet, as far as I am concerned, the great strength of style sheets is when something needs to be repeatable. So I will define paragraph styles, bullet styles and heading styles because similar paragraph configurations will appear more than once in my document. Likewise for legends or equations in a technical document. On the other hand, tables rarely repeat themselves: number and width of columns differ, some have text, others have numbers, etc. Number and width of columns are not controlled by styles. In fact you cannot control almost nothing from tables on any way within Writer, not even with autoformatted tables. Styles only apply to cell content, and to that I always try to avoid any direct formatting. – better interactions between bullet styles and regular paragraph styles (or maybe a clearer explanation on how both work); Agree – partial character styles (and maybe partial paragraph styles): for example, Strong (or accented) might simply defined as whatever paragraph style and font styles are already applied + Bold, and note might be defined as 85% of height in grey; Actually, that's the way character styles work right now: if you link your character style with Predefined and only change a few attributes, all other attributes will be inherited from the paragraph style. – the possibility of having a paragraph style followed by another one should also work within cells, so the style used for column header would be automatically followed by the one used for column content, for example; If you activate table headers (you need to insert the table from Insert - Table instead of using the toolbar button) Table header paragraph style is automatically applied to the header cells and Table content to all others. The system needs to be a lot more flexible, though. – last but not least, page styles should be optionally linked to a base style (i.e. margins of my first page could then be automatically modified from the margins of my standard page). 100 % agreement!!! For compatibility, the same stylesheets should exist in Impress, with added features linked to paragraph animation. Imagine the ease of transfer if a standard paragraph -- bullet 1 level 2 paragraph would contain all the following: – in Writer: font: Bodoni 10 pt; bullet: n-dash ; indents: 1p6, -1p6, 0; spaces: 5pt, 0.95 li, 0; – in Calc:... – in Impress: font Helvetica Bold 16pt blue ; bullet: n-dash gold ; indents: 3p, -3p, 0; spaces: 12pt, 1.1li, 0; visual effect: slide from left in 2 seconds... Yes, paragraph and character styles on Draw and Impress will be great! Let me add one thing: styles for Math I desperately need that (Ok, I'm exaggerating... ;) ) It may be a good idea to repost this under a descriptive subject line so that other power-users may chime in? This may be of interest to the LibO dev who may be interested in improving the treatment of styles. This way, these suggestions and comments would not be lost inside a thread such as this. Marc -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] LibO program icon brainstorming
Christoph Noack, 29-10-2010 20:17: * Icons: Just a question - is the lighter region intended? Personally, it irritates me a bit (it is hard for my brain to come up with the 3D equivalent). To me, the first draft felt a bit better (except the slight gradient in the invers-S-element in the Draw icon). I also loved his second draft, but I think it would be better to have the upper part of just like the first draft. -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] LibO program icon brainstorming
Christoph Noack, 29-10-2010 20:17: * Icons: Just a question - is the lighter region intended? Personally, it irritates me a bit (it is hard for my brain to come up with the 3D equivalent). To me, the first draft felt a bit better (except the slight gradient in the invers-S-element in the Draw icon). I also loved his second draft, but I think it would be better to have the upper part of just like the first draft. -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
