[tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Michelle Konzack]

Hello aqualung,

Am 2011-04-17 11:26:23, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
> The http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ should be at or near the
> top.

WHY?  I think the first one should be the ORIGINAL mailinglist,  because
it is more ipmortant.  Also WHY "OpenOffice" and not "LibreOffice"?

Of you want an OpenOffice Forum, you should ask Oracle for it!  :-D

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack

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[tdf-discuss] Re: Re: Forums... again

[Michelle Konzack]

Hello RGB ES,

Am 2011-04-17 21:33:47, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
> For whatever reason "normal people" do not use mailing lists nor irc
> channels.

Hmmm, do you mean I am not normal?  -  This is discrimination!

> This people who arrives to that get-help page searching for
> help with their problems will not find solutions on an easy way. And
> people who cannot find a solution on an easy way will not use a
> product.

I do not use thos crapy forums, because I have to search to long for it.
It is NON reliabel and slow. Do not belive I want to give a searchengine
any infos about me, because I need help with a stupid program.

Mailinglists are the fastest way to get help, because the "Real Helpers"
use all mail to communicate faster and easier!

Only some non-well-educated noobs use searchengine+forum!

NNTP and MAIL exist since 30 years with success!

> Is everything about trust: people will trust a product not because
> they can use it for free (people usually do not consider idealogical
> issues like file formats nor open code when choosing their solutions),
> usually they only look if that software can solve their *immediate*
> problem on an easy way. And that of course include how they get help
> when they have a problem.

Mailinglist are the way to go!  I am volunter on some mailinglistst  and
I definitively would not do  it, if I have to use forums on my TabletPC.

> get an answer there, we trust the people who maintain that board so
> use it with confidence and good luck" you will help a lot more people.

You can pay peoples to maintain this board and of course the  costs  for
maintenance of such server which is much higher then a mailinglist.

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack

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[tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Michelle Konzack]

Hello aqualung,

Am 2011-04-17 09:07:45, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
> I keep hearing "freedom", but is it about the freedom of users from being
> locked into a proprietary file format... or the freedom of unattached
> software developers to get their patches committed? Do people here really
> believe that a "community" of unpaid enthusiasts can take the place of a
> major corporation, or several, putting dozens of experienced professional
> developers to work Monday thru Friday, month after month? If so, it's a pipe
> dream!

What about paying for support?

> Coming back to the call for a forum, why not let the users decide how they
> would prefer to ask for assistance? 

???  User can ALREADY choose the Mailinglist or the Forum!

Maybe yo should go and hire some PROs which do there Job in the Forum?

Note:   I hate Web-Forums and I hate "social" networks,
because they ARE associal!

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi aqualung, *,

aqualung schrieb:

[..]

> Anyway, I'm glad that people are responding. I guess it proves the
> adage, "the squeaky wheel gets the grease"

> Tell you what, give me the keys to that page and I'll fix it for ya.

Do You have an account on the CMS?

If not, someone might have the link at hand for registering.

> Alternatively, I'll see if I can grab the HTML for editing and then
> I'll whip up a proposal for you guys to vote on. Deal?

I'd assume there is no problem to get an author's account.


Gruß/regards
-- 
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Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/
LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images


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Re: [tdf-discuss] LibreOffice and a StackExchange support website

[Simos Xenitellis]

2011/4/18 Fabián Rodríguez :
> On 04/17/2011 10:21 AM, Simos Xenitellis wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>
>> The new hotness for a support website would be to have a StackExchange
>> website for LibreOffice.
>> For example,
>>    * http://wordpress.stackexchange.com/  -  aiming at developers,
>> advanced users
>>    * http://askubuntu.com/ - aiming at users, also advanced users
>>
>> Here is a list of all StackExchange support websites, all 48 of them,
>> http://stackexchange.com/sites
>>
>> What is StackExchange? Read at
>> http://stackexchange.com/about
>>
>> In a nutshell, these are type of support websites that highlight the
>> questions, and provide many opportunities
>> to get these questions answered, with quality answers. The users
>> accumulate points for their participation,
>> which they then can use up to bring attention to their own questions
>> that they may have.
>> In addition, as users accumulate points, they get more
>> responsibilities in self-moderating the website.
>>
>> The most well-known of those websites is StackOverflow,
>> http://stackoverflow.com/
>> with about a million members, and more than a million questions answered.
>>
>> I am not affiliated with StackExchange, just posting this to see
>> whether there is interest.
>>
>> Simos
>>
> I posted about doing this on shapado.com a few months ago, take a look:
> http://libreoffice.shapado.com/
>
> The mailing list archives will also tell you more.
>
> I think it would be unfortunate to use a non-free SaaS to do this,
> specially when Shapado can do more.
>
> I haven't been able to put much more time on this lately, but surely
> making it an official resource would help it gain traction.
>

Thanks for the link. I had no idea about shapado.com
(or http://gitorious.org/shapado )

There has been a similar discussion for AskUbuntu and UbuntuAsk,
http://meta.askubuntu.com/questions/302/why-should-i-use-this-site-instead-of-ubuntu-ask-shapado
with insightful comments.

To be able to get Libreoffice.Shapado (or one at StackExchange) become popular,
you need to make a group that will devote time to answer questions for
the first few weeks.
And at the same time promote as much as possible. The positive issue
with StackExchange is that you get the spillover from the other
StackExchange websites.
In any case, it's a hard task to motivate people to spend their time.

Thanks,
Simos

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[RGB ES]

2011/4/17 sophie :
> On 17/04/2011 22:33, RGB ES wrote:
>>
>> Aqualung already listed the content of the get-help page and the lack
>> of any reference to existing forums and that is my main point too
>> (don't worry, I'll not talk about socialism nor capitalism... ;) ).
>> I'll not quote anyone in particular here, so let's see if I can make
>> the whole idea more clear by itself.
>
> Did you referenced it in the es website?

I thought there was a recent problem because the ES site was different
from the main site, so no, I did not referenced it there and never
will do if there is no previous agreement.
I'll not answer the rest of your mail.
Have a nice day

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Re: [tdf-discuss] LibreOffice and a StackExchange support website

[Fabián Rodríguez]

On 04/17/2011 10:21 AM, Simos Xenitellis wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> The new hotness for a support website would be to have a StackExchange
> website for LibreOffice.
> For example,
>* http://wordpress.stackexchange.com/  -  aiming at developers,
> advanced users
>* http://askubuntu.com/ - aiming at users, also advanced users
>
> Here is a list of all StackExchange support websites, all 48 of them,
> http://stackexchange.com/sites
>
> What is StackExchange? Read at
> http://stackexchange.com/about
>
> In a nutshell, these are type of support websites that highlight the
> questions, and provide many opportunities
> to get these questions answered, with quality answers. The users
> accumulate points for their participation,
> which they then can use up to bring attention to their own questions
> that they may have.
> In addition, as users accumulate points, they get more
> responsibilities in self-moderating the website.
>
> The most well-known of those websites is StackOverflow,
> http://stackoverflow.com/
> with about a million members, and more than a million questions answered.
>
> I am not affiliated with StackExchange, just posting this to see
> whether there is interest.
>
> Simos
>
I posted about doing this on shapado.com a few months ago, take a look:
http://libreoffice.shapado.com/

The mailing list archives will also tell you more.

I think it would be unfortunate to use a non-free SaaS to do this,
specially when Shapado can do more.

I haven't been able to put much more time on this lately, but surely
making it an official resource would help it gain traction.

Cheers,

Fabian

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~
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[sophie]

On 17/04/2011 22:33, RGB ES wrote:

Aqualung already listed the content of the get-help page and the lack
of any reference to existing forums and that is my main point too
(don't worry, I'll not talk about socialism nor capitalism... ;) ).
I'll not quote anyone in particular here, so let's see if I can make
the whole idea more clear by itself.


Did you referenced it in the es website?

For whatever reason "normal people" do not use mailing lists nor irc
channels.


 I've not the money to use a forum, strange isn't it, I may not be 
"normal"?

  This people who arrives to that get-help page searching for
help with their problems will not find solutions on an easy way. And
people who cannot find a solution on an easy way will not use a
product.

oh, and why didn't they go to the forum, too complicated?

Is everything about trust: people will trust a product not because
they can use it for free (people usually do not consider idealogical
issues like file formats nor open code when choosing their solutions),
usually they only look if that software can solve their *immediate*
problem on an easy way. And that of course include how they get help
when they have a problem.
ah, in the country I leave, using a product without pirating it make you 
in the safe way of expressing yourself, just a point of view however.
And by the way, even in France, where the liberty of expression is 
respected (in some way) free software in ministry is also a political 
choice, so sorry if I don't caution your reasoning, it's a bit leak for 
me for justifying a dedicated forum, in fact, I don't see where you're 
going.

If on that get-help page you say "even if there is no warranty you'll
get an answer there, we trust the people who maintain that board so
use it with confidence and good luck" you will help a lot more people.


Ha, with confidence and good luck?

That, together with dialogue, is a possible "official collaboration".
Communication with people is the main issue here. Maybe my first
message had a very low level of patience, my fault, sorry. But that
was because I consider that having a clear position on this topic is
of a great importance.
the clear position is as usual and what Christian answered you, why do 
you want to divide resources where they have proven to be effective? you 
are missing collaboration? so work to be collaborative with the forum, 
don't reproach the entire project of something you didn't achieve.

Kind regards
Sophie


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[tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[aqualung]

Friedrich Strohmaier wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> What did You *act* to get it there?
> 
> 
> 
Friedrich, see my earlier postings (with references / links to earlier
commentary).

Anyway, I'm glad that people are responding. I guess it proves the adage,
"the squeaky wheel gets the grease" 

Tell you what, give me the keys to that page and I'll fix it for ya.
Alternatively, I'll see if I can grab the HTML for editing and then I'll
whip up a proposal for you guys to vote on. Deal?

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[RGB ES]

Aqualung already listed the content of the get-help page and the lack
of any reference to existing forums and that is my main point too
(don't worry, I'll not talk about socialism nor capitalism... ;) ).
I'll not quote anyone in particular here, so let's see if I can make
the whole idea more clear by itself.

For whatever reason "normal people" do not use mailing lists nor irc
channels. This people who arrives to that get-help page searching for
help with their problems will not find solutions on an easy way. And
people who cannot find a solution on an easy way will not use a
product.
Is everything about trust: people will trust a product not because
they can use it for free (people usually do not consider idealogical
issues like file formats nor open code when choosing their solutions),
usually they only look if that software can solve their *immediate*
problem on an easy way. And that of course include how they get help
when they have a problem.
If on that get-help page you say "even if there is no warranty you'll
get an answer there, we trust the people who maintain that board so
use it with confidence and good luck" you will help a lot more people.
That, together with dialogue, is a possible "official collaboration".
Communication with people is the main issue here. Maybe my first
message had a very low level of patience, my fault, sorry. But that
was because I consider that having a clear position on this topic is
of a great importance.
Cheers
Ricardo

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi aqualung, *,

aqualung schrieb:

> Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
>> But there are existing LibreOffice and OpenOffice forums. I still
>> don't get the point.

> Why aren't the users of LibreOffice being told about them?

Whom do You accuse here?

> www.libreoffice.org/get-help/ is the Help page. Let's see what it
> says:

> For user support, we have:
>> * Mailing lists: the user support mailing list address is our
>> main channel for LibreOffice users needing help with a problem
>> [...]index. * IRC channels: come chat with us live on IRC at
>> freenode.net [...] * FAQs: we are compiling a list of
>> frequently-asked questions. [...] * Documentation: Check our
>> documentation download page [...] * System requirements: Read the
>> system requirements [...] * Installation instructions: [...]
>> * Accessibility information: Read these accessibility tips [...]

> That's it!

> The http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ should be at or near
> the top. It's not anywhere on the page!

What did You *act* to get it there?

> Why haven't you approached
> that forum's management to discuss integration with LibreOffice
> (including branding and design)?

Whom do You ask? This question is one You should ask yourself: Why
haven't *You* approached to do so?

> What is this if not a sign of
> extreme disregard for the wants and needs of ordinary people using
> the software, most of  whom are uncomfortable with, or resistant to,
> using IRC or mailing lists?

indeed! *You* did notice that issue and what was *Your* action?

Again: whom do You accuse? Who should act, if not You?

> I'm afraid that's what Free and Open Source Software is exactly about.

An Open Source Software community is a place to *act* rather than
complain.

[..]

Gruß/regards
-- 
Friedrich
Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/
LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images


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Re: [tdf-discuss] North American Community Inaugural Meeting

[drew]

> > 
> 
> Way to go! Thank you for setting this up.

Thanks Charles, but this chick is far from hatched still.

//drew


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Le Sun, 17 Apr 2011 11:26:23 -0700 (PDT),
aqualung  a écrit :

> 
> Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
> > 
> > But there are existing LibreOffice and OpenOffice forums. I still
> > don't get
> > the point.
> Why aren't the users of LibreOffice being told about them?
> 
> www.libreoffice.org/get-help/ is the Help page. Let's see what it
> says:
> 
> 
> For user support, we have:
> > 
> > * Mailing lists: the user support mailing list address is our
> > main channel for LibreOffice users needing help with a problem
> > [...]index.
> > * IRC channels: come chat with us live on IRC at freenode.net
> > [...]
> > * FAQs: we are compiling a list of frequently-asked questions.
> > [...]
> > * Documentation: Check our documentation download page [...]
> > * System requirements: Read the system requirements [...]
> > * Installation instructions: [...]
> > * Accessibility information: Read these accessibility tips [...]
> That's it!
> 
> The http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ should be at or
> near the top. It's not anywhere on the page! Why haven't you
> approached that forum's management to discuss integration with
> LibreOffice (including branding and design)? What is this if not a
> sign of extreme disregard for the wants and needs of ordinary people
> using the software, most of  whom are uncomfortable with, or
> resistant to, using IRC or mailing lists? 
> 

I really don't think it's an extreme disregard for users or forums. Why
do you even think we would want to disregard them? Please don't talk to
me as if I'm selling you something. TDF is not your ice cream vendor,
and we're not a supermarket either. Also you're voicing one opinion,
not an everlasting truth. We are going to deal with these issues as soon
as we can, so please be patient. We've only existed for 6 months and I
can assure you that we had a gazillion other things to do, some much
more important, some other less important than your issue. But we'll
deal with it in time. 

> 
> I'm afraid that's what Free and Open Source Software is exactly
> about. It's
> > not a pipe dream, it's not about whether people are paid and
> > unpaid, and it's not about serving users as if they were customers
> > either. It's more complex than that (see my take on it:
> > http://standardsandfreedom.net/index.php/2011/03/17/what-does-community-mean-part-2/)
> > and it's not a pipe dream, because Free and Open Source Software is
> > now an important part of IT, whether backed by corporations or not.
> 
> Charles, I read that weeks ago and was less than impressed then. Your
> text has the starry-eyed quality of utopian socialism. 

Socialism? IBM, Novell, Red Hat, Canonical, Google, Oracle, etc. are
hardly socialists. But then you may want to read more on
www.opensource.org , www.opensource.com and www.fsf.org

> 
> I glanced at http://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/ to get an
> idea of the people on the board of TDF. There seems to be a huge
> excess of "producers" and a dearth of "consumers". Surely there are
> many organizations with 100+ seats of OpenOffice/LibreOffice, but I
> don't see any representatives from one of them on the board.

We would love to have users contributing to TDF, and I'm sure you
already read our bylaws. The point is what you contribute as it makes
the project go round and grow.

Best,
Charles.

> 
> 
> 
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Forums-again-tp2830659p2831593.html
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> 


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[tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[aqualung]

Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
> 
> But there are existing LibreOffice and OpenOffice forums. I still don't
> get
> the point.
Why aren't the users of LibreOffice being told about them?

www.libreoffice.org/get-help/ is the Help page. Let's see what it says:


For user support, we have:
> 
> * Mailing lists: the user support mailing list address is our main
> channel for LibreOffice users needing help with a problem [...]index.
> * IRC channels: come chat with us live on IRC at freenode.net [...]
> * FAQs: we are compiling a list of frequently-asked questions. [...]
> * Documentation: Check our documentation download page [...]
> * System requirements: Read the system requirements [...]
> * Installation instructions: [...]
> * Accessibility information: Read these accessibility tips [...]
That's it!

The http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ should be at or near the
top. It's not anywhere on the page! Why haven't you approached that forum's
management to discuss integration with LibreOffice (including branding and
design)? What is this if not a sign of extreme disregard for the wants and
needs of ordinary people using the software, most of  whom are uncomfortable
with, or resistant to, using IRC or mailing lists? 


I'm afraid that's what Free and Open Source Software is exactly about. It's
> not a pipe dream, it's not about whether people are paid and unpaid, and
> it's not about serving users as if they were customers either. It's more
> complex than that (see my take on it:
> http://standardsandfreedom.net/index.php/2011/03/17/what-does-community-mean-part-2/)
> and it's not a pipe dream, because Free and Open Source Software is now an
> important part of IT, whether backed by corporations or not.

Charles, I read that weeks ago and was less than impressed then. Your text
has the starry-eyed quality of utopian socialism. 

I glanced at http://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/ to get an idea of
the people on the board of TDF. There seems to be a huge excess of
"producers" and a dearth of "consumers". Surely there are many organizations
with 100+ seats of OpenOffice/LibreOffice, but I don't see any
representatives from one of them on the board.



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Re: [tdf-discuss] North American Community Inaugural Meeting

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Hello Drew,


Le Sun, 17 Apr 2011 14:08:09 -0400,
drew  a écrit :

> Hi folks,
> 
> I would like to ask the members of the LibreOffice community residing
> in North America for a few minutes of your time.
> 
> First - to please take ~six minutes of your time in order to watch the
> video found here:
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/v/1840388402746
> 
> and to consider the proposals made in it.
> 
> The Doodle poll mentioned in the video can be found here:
> http://doodle.com/76xtkw3m42793zqq
> 
> A wiki page has been started (rather lame at the moment but will be
> fleshed out over the next few days) here:
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/North-American-Community
> 
> Coordination efforts are primarily happening on the US Marketing
> mailing list.
> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/US-Marketing-f1717244.html
> 
> Thanks, in advance, for you time and consideration,
> 

Way to go! Thank you for setting this up.

Best,
Charles.

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[tdf-discuss] North American Community Inaugural Meeting

[drew]

Hi folks,

I would like to ask the members of the LibreOffice community residing in
North America for a few minutes of your time.

First - to please take ~six minutes of your time in order to watch the
video found here:

http://www.facebook.com/v/1840388402746

and to consider the proposals made in it.

The Doodle poll mentioned in the video can be found here:
http://doodle.com/76xtkw3m42793zqq

A wiki page has been started (rather lame at the moment but will be
fleshed out over the next few days) here:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/North-American-Community

Coordination efforts are primarily happening on the US Marketing mailing
list.
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/US-Marketing-f1717244.html

Thanks, in advance, for you time and consideration,

Drew Jensen


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Hello Aqualung,

2011/4/17 aqualung 

> See, I learned about this "forum" (it isn't really a forum, it's something
> concocted out of mailing lists to sort of resemble a real forum) by
> accident
> one month ago, from a
> http://blog.documentfoundation.org/2011/03/17/flattr-us/ blog comment by
> Florian Effenberger . My suggestion to advertise the existence of this
> Nabble widely has gone unheeded. Honi soit qui mal y pense.
>
> A week ago I
>
> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/I-am-downloading-LibreOffice-to-try-it-out-td2790818i20.html#a2802923
> suggested  that talks be opened about collaboration with the
> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ premier volunteer OpenOffice
> forum . There was only one unfavorable response, otherwise silence.
>
> So, how are the hundreds of thousands of LibreOffice users going to get
> assistance for their urgent questions? Please don't tell me "mailing
> lists",
> that's a laugh. The numbers tell the story: 2629 topics in "Dev", 802
> topics
> in "Users".
>
>
But there are existing LibreOffice and OpenOffice forums. I still don't get
the point.


> I have been posting comments here for a month, engaging in some
> discussions,
> because I want to learn about open source in general, open-source office
> software, efforts to combat anti-competitive practices, and who the people
> deeply involved are and how they act.
>
> My impressions are decidedly mixed. It doesn't appear to be about the users
> first and foremost. The few users who manage to find their way here aren't
> always served well. I've seen answers that are "out in left field", i.e.,
> unconnected to the question, or no answers at all.
>
> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Writer-Problem-with-modern-typefaces-having-more-than-the-standard-styles-td2794737.html
> This person  is still waiting for an answer to a question asked nearly two
> weeks ago, already containing a detailed description of the problem and
> links to bug reports etc.
>
> I keep hearing "freedom", but is it about the freedom of users from being
> locked into a proprietary file format... or the freedom of unattached
> software developers to get their patches committed? Do people here really
> believe that a "community" of unpaid enthusiasts can take the place of a
> major corporation, or several, putting dozens of experienced professional
> developers to work Monday thru Friday, month after month? If so, it's a
> pipe
> dream!
>

I'm afraid that's what Free and Open Source Software is exactly about. It's
not a pipe dream, it's not about whether people are paid and unpaid, and
it's not about serving users as if they were customers either. It's more
complex than that (see my take on it:
http://standardsandfreedom.net/index.php/2011/03/17/what-does-community-mean-part-2/)
and it's not a pipe dream, because Free and Open Source Software is now an
important part of IT, whether backed by corporations or not.

Best,
Charles.


>
> Coming back to the call for a forum, why not let the users decide how they
> would prefer to ask for assistance? Put up a banner on all your websites
> advertising a poll and give the options:
>
> (1) Create new forum from scratch
> (2) Join forces with http://www.oooforum.org/
> (3) Join forces with http://user.services.openoffice.org/
> (4) Mailing lists
> (5) ...
> (6) ...
> (7) ...
> (8) ...
>
> Let the poll run for a month and then implement the top one or two
> vote-getters.
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Forums-again-tp2830659p2831151.html
> Sent from the Discuss mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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> deleted
>
>

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[tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

[aqualung]

See, I learned about this "forum" (it isn't really a forum, it's something
concocted out of mailing lists to sort of resemble a real forum) by accident
one month ago, from a 
http://blog.documentfoundation.org/2011/03/17/flattr-us/ blog comment by
Florian Effenberger . My suggestion to advertise the existence of this
Nabble widely has gone unheeded. Honi soit qui mal y pense.

A week ago I 
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/I-am-downloading-LibreOffice-to-try-it-out-td2790818i20.html#a2802923
suggested  that talks be opened about collaboration with the 
http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ premier volunteer OpenOffice
forum . There was only one unfavorable response, otherwise silence.

So, how are the hundreds of thousands of LibreOffice users going to get
assistance for their urgent questions? Please don't tell me "mailing lists",
that's a laugh. The numbers tell the story: 2629 topics in "Dev", 802 topics
in "Users".

I have been posting comments here for a month, engaging in some discussions,
because I want to learn about open source in general, open-source office
software, efforts to combat anti-competitive practices, and who the people
deeply involved are and how they act.

My impressions are decidedly mixed. It doesn't appear to be about the users
first and foremost. The few users who manage to find their way here aren't
always served well. I've seen answers that are "out in left field", i.e.,
unconnected to the question, or no answers at all. 
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Writer-Problem-with-modern-typefaces-having-more-than-the-standard-styles-td2794737.html
This person  is still waiting for an answer to a question asked nearly two
weeks ago, already containing a detailed description of the problem and
links to bug reports etc.

I keep hearing "freedom", but is it about the freedom of users from being
locked into a proprietary file format... or the freedom of unattached
software developers to get their patches committed? Do people here really
believe that a "community" of unpaid enthusiasts can take the place of a
major corporation, or several, putting dozens of experienced professional
developers to work Monday thru Friday, month after month? If so, it's a pipe
dream!

Coming back to the call for a forum, why not let the users decide how they
would prefer to ask for assistance? Put up a banner on all your websites
advertising a poll and give the options:

(1) Create new forum from scratch
(2) Join forces with http://www.oooforum.org/
(3) Join forces with http://user.services.openoffice.org/
(4) Mailing lists
(5) ...
(6) ...
(7) ...
(8) ...

Let the poll run for a month and then implement the top one or two
vote-getters.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Forums... again

[sophie]

On 17/04/2011 16:06, RGB ES wrote:

2011/4/17 Christian Lohmaier:

Again: The point is not forum or not. The point is: Why the heck do
you want *yet another* forum.


Please, re read my message: I'm NOT talking about a new forum nor to
split anything. I'm talking about OFFICIAL COOPERATION: about not to
let the forum issue as a second class citizen on LibO ecosystem.
Which kind of cooperation? I don't know, that needs to be discussed.
By telling people "use existing resources" YOU are splitting the
community: the official community that talks through the the official
mailing lists and the "other community" that use "external channels".
I don't understand your purpose. We are cooperating with the forum, at 
least the French community is cooperating with the French forum. 
Exchange are reported through the LibO mailing list when a bug is found, 
links from the forum are posted to the LibO users mailing list when a 
solution is proposed, call for QA is made on the forum when the LibO 
project needs it. What prevent the Spanish community to interact with 
the forum?
I also don't understand what the term OFFICIAL COOPERATION means, this 
is one community using LibreOffice or OpenOffice.org, what do you need 
for official to be underlined here?


Kind regards
Sophie


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Forums... again

[Carl Symons]

On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 6:06 AM, RGB ES  wrote:
> 2011/4/17 Christian Lohmaier :
>> Again: The point is not forum or not. The point is: Why the heck do
>> you want *yet another* forum.
>>
> Please, re read my message: I'm NOT talking about a new forum nor to
> split anything. I'm talking about OFFICIAL COOPERATION: about not to
> let the forum issue as a second class citizen on LibO ecosystem.
> Which kind of cooperation? I don't know, that needs to be discussed.
> By telling people "use existing resources" YOU are splitting the
> community: the official community that talks through the the official
> mailing lists and the "other community" that use "external channels".
>
> --

What does "official cooperation" mean?

How does a website gain official recognition? Who monitors to see if
it's a forum or a knockoff?

Why not just say on the official LibreOffice websites that forums can
be found by searching for "LibreOffice forum"?

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[tdf-discuss] LibreOffice and a StackExchange support website

[Simos Xenitellis]

Hi All,

The new hotness for a support website would be to have a StackExchange
website for LibreOffice.
For example,
   * http://wordpress.stackexchange.com/  -  aiming at developers,
advanced users
   * http://askubuntu.com/ - aiming at users, also advanced users

Here is a list of all StackExchange support websites, all 48 of them,
http://stackexchange.com/sites

What is StackExchange? Read at
http://stackexchange.com/about

In a nutshell, these are type of support websites that highlight the
questions, and provide many opportunities
to get these questions answered, with quality answers. The users
accumulate points for their participation,
which they then can use up to bring attention to their own questions
that they may have.
In addition, as users accumulate points, they get more
responsibilities in self-moderating the website.

The most well-known of those websites is StackOverflow,
http://stackoverflow.com/
with about a million members, and more than a million questions answered.

I am not affiliated with StackExchange, just posting this to see
whether there is interest.

Simos

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Forums... again

[RGB ES]

2011/4/17 Christian Lohmaier :
> Again: The point is not forum or not. The point is: Why the heck do
> you want *yet another* forum.
>
Please, re read my message: I'm NOT talking about a new forum nor to
split anything. I'm talking about OFFICIAL COOPERATION: about not to
let the forum issue as a second class citizen on LibO ecosystem.
Which kind of cooperation? I don't know, that needs to be discussed.
By telling people "use existing resources" YOU are splitting the
community: the official community that talks through the the official
mailing lists and the "other community" that use "external channels".

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Forums... again

[Christian Lohmaier]

On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 2:30 PM, RGB ES  wrote:
> We can discuss up to the end of the time if forums are better or worse
> than mailing lists. We can discuss about why people do not use "better
> communication methods" (whichever those methods are) or do not RTFM.
>
> We can discuss everything, but there is a clear fact that cannot be denied:
>
> English community forums have near 40500 registered users
> Spanish community forums have near 5000 registered users
> French community forums have near 17100 registered users

Again: The point is not forum or not. The point is: Why the heck do
you want *yet another* forum.

Those users above will not all register to an additional forum - why
should they?

Why should we split the knowledge of those on purpose?

And the one on services.openoffice.org is not the only one either.

There are already enough forum solutions. If you want a dedicated
"LibreOffice" one, ask the maintainers of that forum to open a
"LibreOffice" category or something (but I don't think this is
necessary, as functionality is not that much different yet)

ciao
Christian

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[tdf-discuss] Forums... again

[RGB ES]

We can discuss up to the end of the time if forums are better or worse
than mailing lists. We can discuss about why people do not use "better
communication methods" (whichever those methods are) or do not RTFM.

We can discuss everything, but there is a clear fact that cannot be denied:

English community forums have near 40500 registered users
Spanish community forums have near 5000 registered users
French community forums have near 17100 registered users
...
(http://user.services.openoffice.org/)

People like forums. People NEED forums. So, why every time the forum
issue is considered here it falls on nothing?

I think we need to consider to OFFICIALLY cooperate with the community
forums, specially now that Oracle is washing their hands from OOo.

And please, do not start arguing as before that mailing lists are
better than forums: that's completely irrelevant.

Just my 2¢

Cheers

Ricardo

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Re: [tdf-discuss] QA - Bug Confirming: Volunteers required

[Andrea Pescetti]

Christian Lohmaier wrote:
> Or maybe people did join, waited a little and then left again without
> writing a word, because the channel itself was silent.

This was more or less my case. I connected in the afternoon European
time, I saw no activity at all for one hour, I realized that
"12PM" (i.e., noon) in
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/IRCSessions#Bug_Triage_Training_Session
really meant that the sessions was to be held in the morning only
(European time) and I left since I didn't feel like writing in a
chatroom full of people but no signal of activity.

Actually, my main interest was not in unconfirmed bugs, but in
deduplication of LibreOffice and OpenOffice.org issues, since I feel
that cross-linking the common issues would save time both for QA
volunteers and developers. How to deal with this problem has been asked
several times (on this list too) but with no answer: it would be great
to have a policy on this (i.e., how to deal with LibreOffice bugs that
exist, or are being addressed, or have been fixed, in the OpenOffice.org
code, taking into account that LibreOffice still imports the
OpenOffice.org code on a regular basis).

Regards,
  Andrea.


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Re: [tdf-discuss] QA - Bug Confirming: Volunteers required

[Rainer Bielefeld]

Pieter E. Zanstra schrieb:

 So apparantly there is something
seriously wrong in the process control.


Hi,

yes! I believe it would help a lot to have UNCONFIRMED as default 
submission status, but unfortunately it seems that that will not be 
possible with the current Bugzilla version.


I think it would be useful to collect some enhancement requests for our 
Bugzilla (for example a differentiated permission management), but - to 
be honest - I'm not in the mood for doing that.


CU

Rainer

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Re: [tdf-discuss] QA - Bug Confirming: Volunteers required

[sophie]

Hi all,
On 17/04/2011 05:20, Christian Lohmaier wrote:

Hi Steve, *,

On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 10:10 PM, Steve Edmonds
  wrote:

How was the session on triage.

"Failure" basically - (or also bad timing, as 3.4beta has not been
available, and when it was, it turned out that it wasn't running /
there were big problems installing it, so people stayed away)
Yes, and also localization period that for me prevent more 
participation. So next time, I need to better coordinate this with the 
development schedule.

But that doesn't mean of course that it was in vain, just means that
it can only get better next time :-)

yes :-)

(and this time there were less than 20 unconfirmed bugs anyway, so it
doesn't hurt much to not have lots of/any participants)

yes, that will serve to improve the process anyway

I suggest a latest working release
instead of a beta, I cannot afford my LO not to work as I need it every
day and are unsure if I can install a beta and a release copy at the
same time. I do not want to take the risk.

Yes, I agree - fur the (expanded) purpose of verifying whether
resolved fixed issues are actually working in the release, there
should be a RC at least (or a version that can be installed alongside
the stable version without "dirty tricks".

But of course it is always hard to tell why people did not show up...

For the next time, we must make sure that all people do know about it.
I'm not sure whether people did read the announcements/were aware of
it, so next time we should put a big note on the homepage and on the
wiki, then this aspect is out of the question.

+1

Or maybe people did join, waited a little and then left again without
writing a word, because the channel itself was silent. So maybe a
dedicated people being "rolemodels" might help. Or maybe give an
IRC-Talk as introduction. (There were quite a few in the
OpenOffice.org project, that I enjoyed very much, but unfortunately
this all died when the person driving it (making a schedule, asking
people to give a talk...) "vanished")
The irc talk introduction is a very good idea, that will fix a meeting 
point for people (you know with no deadlines...). Making 2 introductions 
to cover more time zone is also something to think about.


Kind regards
Sophie


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RE: [tdf-discuss] QA - Bug Confirming: Volunteers required

[Pieter E. Zanstra]

On the basis of what is described about statuses
(https://bugs.freedesktop.org/page.cgi?id=fields.html#status) I understand
that every report starts its life as UNCONFIRMED. Next a power user can
"accept" a bug and set the status to NEW. So apparantly there is something
seriously wrong in the process control. The group could decide that a bug
needs at least one confirmation before it is accepted. I don't know if this
is possible to be automated, but as a start all submissions (like the one
below) without a comment should be reset to status UUNCONFIRMED.
Pieter

> -Original Message-
> From: Rainer Bielefeld [mailto:libreoff...@bielefeldundbuss.de] 
> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 8:52 AM
> To: discuss@documentfoundation.org
> Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] QA - Bug Confirming: Volunteers required
> 
> Steve Edmonds schrieb:
> > This is may be where I am confused or misunderstanding. The above 
> > search returns 17 bugs UNCO, but there are many bugs marked 
> NEW, such 
> > as from random *3963* 
> > . This 
> is NEW and 
> > there is no indication it is CONFIRMED, therefore I assume 
> it is UNCONFIRMED but it is not in the search.


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