Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
Hi everyone, I am the creator of LibreOfficeForum.org. I'd just like to set a few things straight. 1. The forum DOES have full categories, similar to the two major OpenOffice.org forums. Please look at /forum or click on the Forums button toward the upper left. I prefer the "Recent posts" listing, because it is an easy way to see activity across all the categories, and it also helps spot and control SPAM posts in the comments of old threads, which is a real problem on some other forums. That being said, if most people find this too confusing, I can change the frontpage to show the full forum categories list. I would like to kindly and respectfully request everyone to give us your opinion on this change after looking at the site with an open mind and more than a passing glance. Yes, this is an unofficial site, and yes, it runs Adsense, but a lot of time, effort, and thought has gone into it to make it nice for the user. 2. Ads. Yes, we have them. They are only Adsense text ads, I do not and will never permit image ads or 3rd party sponsor ads. I think this is a responsible and simple method of keeping the forum running if it gets hit with more traffic. Good hosting is not cheap. I realize that some users hate ads with a passion. Most of those users are already running an ad blocker, so they will never see the ads anyway. And additionally, any registered user can disable the ads with two checkboxes in his user preferences. 3. Internationalization. I need to get the registration welcome email internationalized. I don't know how to do this yet, but it's on my list. At any rate, I feel that we are showing respect to people of other languages by offering the same exact forum (with all its categories translated) in none less than 10 languages. At least one moderator that speaks the language is assigned to each one. Again, thanks to everyone involved for making LibreOffice available, it's an extremely important piece of software in my life. Sorry if I don't receive all of your replies or respond promptly. I'm not very good with mailing lists and I don't use them much. Thanks, Sam -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Question about proposing the creation of a new format
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 25/04/11 8:53 PM, Christian Lohmaier wrote: > > There is also http://odt2daisy.sourceforge.net/ - in case your reader > supports the daisy format. I hadn't even heard of DAISY, but it looks very cool so thanks for pointing me at it. I just installed the extension and will have a little play with it at some nebulous point in the future. > Other than that: what would be a special requirement for eReaders? I can't speak for anyone else, but as long as an eReader can display content as it would in a normal book then it's good enough. If that book is a novel, then it will usually be pretty easy (e.g. text, italics, bold, small capitals, subscript, superscript and maybe footnotes). If that book is a text book (e.g. a science book) with charts, formula, pictures, etc.) then more may be required. > I know PDF is suboptimal because it needs to scale to the display > screen. When it comes to books, PDF is only really useful for type-setting a print book (e.g. the way Lulu uses them for preparing print on demand books). > plain text might be boring to read (headings, etc hard to spot, lack > of structural information for navigation), rtf might not be > supported by the reader... Well, I wouldn't opt for either of those formats. > So there probably is no one-size-fits all solution. And it depends > on what the purpose is: personal use (i.e. conversion of random > documents) or dedicated publishing (aim is to write a book and > publish it) and thus how many restrictions you can impose on the > structure/formatting of the document. Exactly. At this stage most ebook publishers, including self-publishers, usually need at least two or three formats for each publication and often more. Until your post I was considering PDF, ePub, Kindle (.mobi) and maybe one or two others (.lit and whatever Sony uses). Now you can add DAISY to the list too. It takes a little time to prepare all the relevant formats, but compared to the process of writing, proofing and editing, not really all that much. Regards, Ben -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEAREKAAYFAk22TscACgkQNxrFv6BK4xOCPACg2MrNKNR+rHs1sYTFul8PuyN4 dgcAnixKVPC8dMbq/hZt1TB50JebuPpX =oQTC -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 25/04/2011 08:44, Christian Lohmaier wrote: > It is OK if it has a paypal or whatever donate link to explicitly cover the costs of running the server (but it must be clear that this You do realize that the organization that puts up the "donation link" has to register in each of the fifty states of the united states, and each of the thirteen provinces and territories of Canada, and each country in Europe, and each overseas province of France, etc, or face possible civil or criminal prosecution, or both, in the respective political entity in which they failed to register, don't you? jonathon - -- If Bing copied Google, there wouldn't be anything new worth requesting. If Bing did not copy Google, there wouldn't be anything relevant worth requesting. DaveJakeman 20110207 Groklaw. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJNtfHxAAoJEERA7YuLpVrVpLgH/0GPKwyz6vlJH+Hrf39YzHiV HaSxtDtI0opLod+2wOsFzMz2QH7kKeB7xzAKCZUUN0cfqxKkbRrzdPrh+OC24iur 2gh//qo8eHF+VyCXtMBaeO+kZZ3uKqFNA61hzxRMc9WTB8SPvVCFd2N+xvWBBsGF Qjiy4obkCz973GJNDWGUJ/+bmRotTA4QAMDkkvGnlJB4eLD07jckDDqih30UISjN dLYsAvUaBfDW1/u2CpsKDc6zLAV4YTVF/rHbHaYGUaWpKbYDkq4ljCA9euE1YsYV dmwmyxMu05Gsm5/7f5ZSwYYSJiTHcg0abXNUsrUYn+8nbHfzmlssJOQ0ESO/9+U= =tJ6w -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 25/04/2011 03:29, Larry Gusaas wrote: > Someone makes money any time an ad is clicked on. That is contrary to the > spirit of using open source software. Open Source Software is about LIBRE. Gratis is completely and utterly irrelevant to FLOSS. Frankly, I'd be extremely surprised if the adds generated enough revenue to pay the true costs of running the website. jonathon - -- If Bing copied Google, there wouldn't be anything new worth requesting. If Bing did not copy Google, there wouldn't be anything relevant worth requesting. DaveJakeman 20110207 Groklaw. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJNte/0AAoJEERA7YuLpVrV91wH+wUHLKdlbKTyBLO0kZCTLmXY zUqFJ/d50dtH3R7xrwhkmsCuqOAkD5/0zKLrfiS3TMvFQ3Sw4UKmHPjT6p6Gb8JM ARa7IHJfLY5L2M9Fagft1EbRwTDQQzbtT+Qb0bOUVwemoo+FxsWTJTlYp0xMYSx9 iOrY3QNpvTqGDmBvC4fGaxYqjWcx6as/qed45QrzAz4KU3Shvc6vZVQl8Wey5Qnv k0FVYWRCL6CjPzpqgYNd2CWVPUXl/O2qAdhMiMtgsdmHjf8Pb1RJJNaM9kcedxMY sDYXSmIxf14XamRhrCcev6j40U7gVVkcBuPZFTf0BAqb8VCmbhIUIXLKnNu905U= =ETO0 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
On 2011/04/25 2:58 PM Charles Marcus wrote: On 2011-04-25 4:36 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote: On 2011/04/25 2:13 PM Charles Marcus wrote: Being contrary to the spirit of making money is being contrary to the spirit of life itself Bullshit. Making money has nothing to do with the spirit of life. No bullshit... it has everything to do with it, since supporting life requires food, clothing and shelter, and those require - money. Yes it is. You are talking about the necessities to support life. That is not the spirit of life. - unless of course you're one of 'those' people who believe that they are *entitled* to the fruit of other people's labor. What makes you think I believe I'm entitled to the fruit of other people's labour? I said "*UNLESS* you are... I didn't say you were... That is right. You veiled your insult behind an "unless you are". The intent was clear. You still have not defined who "'those' people" are. That term is usually used to marginalize, denigrate, and dismiss "others" such as blacks, gays, Jews, Native Americans, Indians, Chinese, etc. in your to ignore and trivialize them. Typical tactic of the privileged. Larry -- _ Larry I. Gusaas Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com "An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
On 2011-04-25 4:36 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote: > On 2011/04/25 2:13 PM Charles Marcus wrote: >> Being contrary to the spirit of making money is being contrary to the >> spirit of life itself > Bullshit. Making money has nothing to do with the spirit of life. No bullshit... it has everything to do with it, since supporting life requires food, clothing and shelter, and those require - money. >> - unless of course you're one of 'those' people who believe that >> they are *entitled* to the fruit of other people's labor. > What makes you think I believe I'm entitled to the fruit of other > people's labour? I said "*UNLESS* you are... I didn't say you were... -- Best regards, Charles -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
On 2011/04/25 2:13 PM Charles Marcus wrote: On 2011-04-24 11:29 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote: Someone makes money any time an ad is clicked on. That is contrary to the spirit of using open source software. Not that I'm arguing for or against the particular forum in question, but... since when is making 'money contrary to the spirit of using open source software'? Perhaps I should reword that. Having ads for commercial products, including Microsoft Office, have no place on a site supporting an open source product. I will not provide support on a site that uses that method to raise money. Being contrary to the spirit of making money is being contrary to the spirit of life itself Bullshit. Making money has nothing to do with the spirit of life. - unless of course you're one of 'those' people who believe that they are *entitled* to the fruit of other people's labor. Who are the 'those' people you are referring to? What label are you trying to pin on me in order to insult me? What makes you think I believe I'm entitled to the fruit of other people's labour? Larry -- _ Larry I. Gusaas Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com "An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[steering-discuss] Invitiation to participate in our study regarding community governance
Dear Sir or Madam I kindly want to invite you to our project's upcoming study on community governance and its impact on the collaboration with other organizations. Given the recent developments between the OpenOffice.org (respectively LibreOffice) community on the one hand and Oracle/Sun on the other hand, it seems that your insight will be most important to our research project. Please let me briefly introduce you to our project and myself. My dissertation is concerned with the opportunities and challenges, which arise from open source development. Based on this, my team and I have launched a project at the Berlin Institute of Technology, which also involves other researchers and students. Just recently we have also launched our website: www.oss-research.info. In this next study of ours we want to explore what are the basic elements of community governance, how a community can be managed and what rules and norms are vital for the collaboration with other organizations. This is a topic, which is pretty much understudied right now and as you will be aware yourself, managers have to learn how to acknowledge community culture. For this reason I ask for your support. We would be glad if you consider to participate in our study by agreeing to an interview (via skype). Of course, all answers will be anonymized from individual attribution, unless you don't want that. And likewise, we offer to give you a full account of our research findings. If you are interested, please contact me at heitm...@strategie.tu-berlin.de Thanks in advance for your support. Best regards Martin Heitmann -- Dipl.-Kfm. Martin Heitmann Wissenschaftlicher Mitarbeiter Technische Universität Berlin Fakultät VII - Wirtschaft und Management Fachgebiet für Strategische Führung und Globales Management Sekretariat H92 Straße des 17. Juni 135 D - 10623 Berlin Tel. +49 - 30 -314 28746 Fax. +49 - 30 -314 26048 Raum: H 9168 Internet: www.strategie.tu-berlin.de -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to steering-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/steering-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
On 2011-04-24 11:29 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote: > Someone makes money any time an ad is clicked on. That is contrary to > the spirit of using open source software. Not that I'm arguing for or against the particular forum in question, but... since when is making 'money contrary to the spirit of using open source software'? Being contrary to the spirit of making money is being contrary to the spirit of life itself - unless of course you're one of 'those' people who believe that they are *entitled* to the fruit of other people's labor. -- Best regards, Charles -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
Hi everyone, I am the creator of LibreOfficeForum.org. I'd just like to set a few things straight. 1. The forum DOES have full categories, similar to the two major OpenOffice.org forums. Please look at /forum or click on the Forums button toward the upper left. I prefer the "Recent posts" listing, because it is an easy way to see activity across all the categories, and it also helps spot and control SPAM posts in the comments of old threads, which is a real problem on some other forums. That being said, if most people find this too confusing, I can change the frontpage to show the full forum categories list. I would like to kindly and respectfully request everyone to give us your opinion on this change after looking at the site with an open mind and more than a passing glance. Yes, this is an unofficial site, and yes, it runs Adsense, but a lot of time, effort, and thought has gone into it to make it nice for the user. 2. Ads. Yes, we have them. They are only Adsense text ads, I do not and will never permit image ads or 3rd party sponsor ads. I think this is a responsible and simple method of keeping the forum running if it gets hit with more traffic. Good hosting is not cheap. I realize that some users hate ads with a passion. Most of those users are already running an ad blocker, so they will never see the ads anyway. And additionally, any registered user can disable the ads with two checkboxes in his user preferences. 3. Internationalization. I need to get the registration welcome email internationalized. I don't know how to do this yet, but it's on my list. At any rate, I feel that we are showing respect to people of other languages by offering the same exact forum (with all its categories translated) in none less than 10 languages. At least one moderator that speaks the language is assigned to each one. Again, thanks to everyone involved for making LibreOffice available, it's an extremely important piece of software in my life. Sorry if I don't receive all of your replies or respond promptly. I'm not very good with mailing lists and I don't use them much. Thanks, Sam -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Question about proposing the creation of a new format
scripting, not for media content). I suppose there are good reasons to > choose that spec and not an extended one... but at that moment, I can > imagine which reasons are. > > > Sorry, i wanted to say "but at the moment, I CAN'T imagine wich reasons are. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Question about proposing the creation of a new format
There is a draft of the EPUB3 specification ( http://idpf.org/news/epub-3-specification-public-draft-released ), I think that this spec has many problems: the capability of scripting (wich is potentially harmful), the low emphasis on semantic data (they use metadata, but specially related to the book structure, not with its content), to forget the "3d models" type of media (epub3 "only" supports images, video and sound, but not 3d models wich the user could explore), and the absence of "profiles" (they talk about fallbacks, but only for scripting, not for media content). I suppose there are good reasons to choose that spec and not an extended one... but at that moment, I can imagine which reasons are. I think that would be interesting to program an ebook editor, to promote the EPUB use over other privative formats. Many lacks of the EPUB format can be covered with scripting, but hidding the scripting to the user, doing it automaticly behind the scene. If there are interested people, then I'm interested on helping working on webkit integration. Kind regards 2011/4/25 Italo Vignoli > On 04/25/2011 11:11 AM, drew wrote: > > However, should LibreOffice have support for producing documents >> targeted to eReaders? I don't know maybe, probably. >> > > I am not an expert on ebooks formats, but I know there are a lot of efforts > around the ePub format to become a standard. Unfortunately, there are too > many commercial interests around ebooks today for the development of a real > independent standard. > > Anyway, should such a standard be defined and accepted, I would personally > be in favour of supporting it, as documents are becoming more pervasive than > in the past and in the future will be accessed through a multitude of > devices (many of them being mobile). > > Best regards, Italo > > > -- > Italo Vignoli > italo.vign...@gmail.com > mobile +39.348.5653829 > VoIP +39.02.320621813 > skype italovignoli > > -- > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > deleted > -- - Per la llibertat del coneixement - - Per la llibertat de la ment... - -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Question about proposing the creation of a new format
On 04/25/2011 11:11 AM, drew wrote: However, should LibreOffice have support for producing documents targeted to eReaders? I don't know maybe, probably. I am not an expert on ebooks formats, but I know there are a lot of efforts around the ePub format to become a standard. Unfortunately, there are too many commercial interests around ebooks today for the development of a real independent standard. Anyway, should such a standard be defined and accepted, I would personally be in favour of supporting it, as documents are becoming more pervasive than in the past and in the future will be accessed through a multitude of devices (many of them being mobile). Best regards, Italo -- Italo Vignoli italo.vign...@gmail.com mobile +39.348.5653829 VoIP +39.02.320621813 skype italovignoli -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
On 04/25/2011 05:07 AM, drew wrote: On Mon, 2011-04-25 at 12:27 +0200, Christian Lohmaier wrote: It is the impression that the user will get. Clicking a donate button is a voluntary choice by the user clicking that button. Being presented/forced to view an advertisement is not an optional thing. Was not the user forced to view the donate advertisement, that is what it is after all, an advertisement. The user of a display ad is not forced to click on it. The biggest problem I have with ads on a forum is the impression it makes on a new user. If I go to a forum for the first time and I see no ads, a lot of users logged in, and a lot of recent activity, I know I have something good. This is the goal we should have for a new LibreOffice forum. A site with ads detracts from the community-supported, community-driven impression that I would like to see LibO make. A donate button does not detract from this impression, IMHO. From a no-ads standpoint, http://www.oooforum.org and http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ set good examples -- they only have the logo of the forum sponsor, which is fine. The problem with those is that they use the name ooo, and one is sponsored by Oracle, so I think using them is not in the long-term interest of LibO. Since we are starting from scratch with a forum, I think we should set it up properly, without ads. If that means waiting a couple of months to find a sponsor willing to do it, it's worth the wait, in my view. I like the domain libreofficeforum.org, so hopefully the owner will be willing to give it up. Jon -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
On Mon, 2011-04-25 at 12:27 +0200, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
> Hi Drew, *,
>
> On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 11:05 AM, drew wrote:
> > On Mon, 2011-04-25 at 10:44 +0200, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
> >> On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 5:38 AM, Augustine Souza
> >> wrote:
> > [...]
> > In general I would like to see the ads limited and focused, but out
> > right banned in favor of a donate button - I don't see the difference,
> > do you really think that a donate button means that the money doesn't go
> > to the owner or that they will stop taking donations as soon as the cost
> > is covered.
Howdy,
> I do see a difference,
Fair enough.
> It is not about that they get money, it is
> /how/ the money is collected.
Also fair enough.
> It is the impression that the user will
> get. Clicking a donate button is a voluntary choice by the user
> clicking that button. Being presented/forced to view an advertisement
> is not an optional thing.
Was not the user forced to view the donate advertisement, that is what
it is after all, an advertisement.
The user of a display ad is not forced to click on it.
A user could user an ad blocker to keep themselves from being 'insulted'
by the advertisement (I assume as I do not use one), but if I understand
correctly this would not turn off the donate advertisement. (I'm not
really sure on that.)
>
> > What would you do with the forum at http://lo-portal.de
> > In or Out?
>
> I wonder why this can not be clear - (did you forget to turn off your
> adblocker?)
Again, I don't use one, so I see all those ads.
>
> It is a definite "Out". it has animated, blinking banner-style adds.
> That's just annoying and way too much. The adds are at the top, at the
> left, at the right, at the bottom. That's way too much.
> >> So bottom line is: If you want to have your forum listed on the LO
> >> webpage, you must not have ads, neither textual nor graphcial
> >> ("sponsored by" is OK). That is my POV.
> >
> > Bottom line - I think that is too stringent, but it is a close call IMO.
>
> Not really. Either you want to support the project, by donating your
> server or your time, or you want to get revenue by having ads.
> After all setting up a forum is not rocket science,
@Hagar, guys - I'm done.
--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Question about proposing the creation of a new format
Hi Ben, *, On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Ben McGinnes wrote: > On 25/04/11 7:11 PM, drew wrote: >> >> As far as LibreOffice being a display client for ebooks, I would >> agree it is not in scope. >> >> However, should LibreOffice have support for producing documents >> targeted to eReaders? I don't know maybe, probably. > > The writer2epub extension does a reasonably good job of that already, > although I'd follow it up with editing in Sigil and probably final > tweaking in Calibre. There is also http://odt2daisy.sourceforge.net/ - in case your reader supports the daisy format. Other than that: what would be a special requirement for eReaders? I know PDF is suboptimal because it needs to scale to the display screen. plain text might be boring to read (headings, etc hard to spot, lack of structural information for navigation), rtf might not be supported by the reader... So there probably is no one-size-fits all solution. And it depends on what the purpose is: personal use (i.e. conversion of random documents) or dedicated publishing (aim is to write a book and publish it) and thus how many restrictions you can impose on the structure/formatting of the document. ciao Christian -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
Hi Drew, *,
On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 11:05 AM, drew wrote:
> On Mon, 2011-04-25 at 10:44 +0200, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
>> On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 5:38 AM, Augustine Souza
>> wrote:
> [...]
> In general I would like to see the ads limited and focused, but out
> right banned in favor of a donate button - I don't see the difference,
> do you really think that a donate button means that the money doesn't go
> to the owner or that they will stop taking donations as soon as the cost
> is covered.
I do see a difference, It is not about that they get money, it is
/how/ the money is collected. It is the impression that the user will
get. Clicking a donate button is a voluntary choice by the user
clicking that button. Being presented/forced to view an advertisement
is not an optional thing.
> What would you do with the forum at http://lo-portal.de
> In or Out?
I wonder why this can not be clear - (did you forget to turn off your
adblocker?)
It is a definite "Out". it has animated, blinking banner-style adds.
That's just annoying and way too much. The adds are at the top, at the
left, at the right, at the bottom. That's way too much.
>> So bottom line is: If you want to have your forum listed on the LO
>> webpage, you must not have ads, neither textual nor graphcial
>> ("sponsored by" is OK). That is my POV.
>
> Bottom line - I think that is too stringent, but it is a close call IMO.
Not really. Either you want to support the project, by donating your
server or your time, or you want to get revenue by having ads.
After all setting up a forum is not rocket science, and it is not like
there would be a lack of them and we have to beg people to set up yet
another one. (IMHO there are already too many of them)
ciao
Christian
--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Question about proposing the creation of a new format
On 25 April 2011 10:40, drew wrote: > On Mon, 2011-04-25 at 11:17 +0200, CaStarCo wrote: > > 2011/4/25 Italo Vignoli > > > > > On 04/25/2011 08:59 AM, todd rme wrote: > > > > > > Sounds like latex > > >> > > > > > > Apart from discussions on the characteristics of the file format, > ebooks > > > are definitely outside the scope of The Document Foundation. There are > > > already several organizations working around ebooks, and taking care of > the > > > related problems. > > > > > > > > > > Wich organizations? I think that if we have to trust that these > > organizations will innovate we are going to wait a very long time. I know > > that I am not a guru and not and expert, but I think that this work is > not > > impossible.. then, why the actual ebooks are that set of static crap? why > > it's so difficult to make technic books for ebook readers? the usage of > > semantic data is restricted in a very poor set of cases... and the > > "standard" format EPUB is very Spartan. > > > > > > > I was writting to the OpenDocument Foundation > > Close - but not quite - this is a list for The Document Foundation. > > The OpenDocument standard is overseen by a different organization, OASIS > - http://www.oasis-open.org/ > > > because i thought it was a > > little more than LibreOffice... It's only LibreOffice? > > I hope that it will be eventually. > > Thanks > > Drew Jensen > I think this is a very interesting issue. We are moving from the dominant technologies that were designed to put information on paper to the dominant need of presenting information on screens. With the revolution in digital readers this is only going to increase and then what relevance has document formats that are primarily designed to target hard copy output? If odf does not adapt it will become obsolete. I am constantly irritated by having to download pdfs, .docs and so on when all I want to do is view the information without cluttering up my download area with hundreds of files that only ever get glanced at. In most of these cases simply putting the info in a web page would do and if it really needs printing, print that page or create a pdf from it. Even if we are not there yet, most information in the future will never get printed to hard copy and that is going to be more the case as time goes on. LO and odf have to be adapt. -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications The Schools ITQ www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 You have received this email from the following company: The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
On 24 April 2011 21:36, Robert Derman wrote: > Jon Hamkins wrote: > >> On 04/22/2011 05:33 PM, Christian Lohmaier wrote: >> >>> Hi *, >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 5:40 AM, Jon Hamkins >>> wrote: >>> On 04/06/2011 04:54 AM, toki wrote: There are roughly one billion words in the English language. You could > have a LibO spell checker that contains each of those words. > Actually, there are only about one million English words in English, and that's including the 500,000 or so scientific words. http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/JohnnyLing.shtml >>> >>> Note that a spell checker doesn't just need to list the words, but >>> needs to know all forms of the words (plural form, genitive form, >>> different times,) >>> >> >> Well, the spell checker just needs a list of words -- grammar is something >> else. OED2 contained 290,000 entries with a total of 690,000 word forms. >> OED3 has somewhat more; a solid word list in an office suite should have >> somewhat fewer. You don't want to include obsolete words that have a close >> but different spelling from common words, for example. >> >> Jon >> > I have said this a number of times, and that at least the English version > is sadly deficient in compound words, at least the one in OOo 3.11 which I > am still using because I am reluctant to give up the personal dictionary to > which I have added perhaps thousands of compound words.If the current > release of LO is significantly better in this area I haven't heard of it. > Nor do I know how to find and save/copy/move my personal dictionary. > On a related matter, I believe that if a developer/programmer could put > instructions on this list, I believe that a few users like me with greatly > enhanced personal dictionaries could send them in as attachments and someone > could use them to build a better word list that would make for a much better > spell check function for LO. That sounds like a very good idea. Most of us here can't contribute to coding but we can contribute to things like dictionaries. We should quaickly have dictionaries that are the most comprehensive in any Office suite. -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications The Schools ITQ www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 You have received this email from the following company: The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Question about proposing the creation of a new format
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On 25/04/11 7:11 PM, drew wrote: > > As far as LibreOffice being a display client for ebooks, I would > agree it is not in scope. > > However, should LibreOffice have support for producing documents > targeted to eReaders? I don't know maybe, probably. The writer2epub extension does a reasonably good job of that already, although I'd follow it up with editing in Sigil and probably final tweaking in Calibre. Regards, Ben -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEAREKAAYFAk21QgMACgkQNxrFv6BK4xNDTgCfcLCaD1PeeiSxdj8SyNR0Ztzv NYkAoOqey/aIYGGvNnF+hBa7m4fIIDXh =Ctnt -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Question about proposing the creation of a new format
On Mon, 2011-04-25 at 11:17 +0200, CaStarCo wrote: > 2011/4/25 Italo Vignoli > > > On 04/25/2011 08:59 AM, todd rme wrote: > > > > Sounds like latex > >> > > > > Apart from discussions on the characteristics of the file format, ebooks > > are definitely outside the scope of The Document Foundation. There are > > already several organizations working around ebooks, and taking care of the > > related problems. > > > > Wich organizations? I think that if we have to trust that these > organizations will innovate we are going to wait a very long time. I know > that I am not a guru and not and expert, but I think that this work is not > impossible.. then, why the actual ebooks are that set of static crap? why > it's so difficult to make technic books for ebook readers? the usage of > semantic data is restricted in a very poor set of cases... and the > "standard" format EPUB is very Spartan. > > I was writting to the OpenDocument Foundation Close - but not quite - this is a list for The Document Foundation. The OpenDocument standard is overseen by a different organization, OASIS - http://www.oasis-open.org/ > because i thought it was a > little more than LibreOffice... It's only LibreOffice? I hope that it will be eventually. Thanks Drew Jensen -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Question about proposing the creation of a new format
2011/4/25 Italo Vignoli > On 04/25/2011 08:59 AM, todd rme wrote: > > Sounds like latex >> > > Apart from discussions on the characteristics of the file format, ebooks > are definitely outside the scope of The Document Foundation. There are > already several organizations working around ebooks, and taking care of the > related problems. > > -- > Italo Vignoli > italo.vign...@gmail.com > mobile +39.348.5653829 > VoIP +39.02.320621813 > skype italovignoli > > > -- > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > deleted > > Wich organizations? I think that if we have to trust that these organizations will innovate we are going to wait a very long time. I know that I am not a guru and not and expert, but I think that this work is not impossible.. then, why the actual ebooks are that set of static crap? why it's so difficult to make technic books for ebook readers? the usage of semantic data is restricted in a very poor set of cases... and the "standard" format EPUB is very Spartan. In any case, it's not like LaTeX, I'm talking about making tools that a not technic user can understand without a great effort. Anb about making a format more similar to dynamic web pages (html5 + javascript) than to latex (but without the risk of executing code, the dynamism should be programmed in the viewer, wich works with the semantic data embedded in the document). I was writting to the OpenDocument Foundation because i thought it was a little more than LibreOffice... It's only LibreOffice? -- - Per la llibertat del coneixement - - Per la llibertat de la ment... - -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Question about proposing the creation of a new format
On Mon, 2011-04-25 at 09:39 +0200, Italo Vignoli wrote: > On 04/25/2011 08:59 AM, todd rme wrote: > > > Sounds like latex > > Apart from discussions on the characteristics of the file format, ebooks > are definitely outside the scope of The Document Foundation. Hello Italo, As far as LibreOffice being a display client for ebooks, I would agree it is not in scope. However, should LibreOffice have support for producing documents targeted to eReaders? I don't know maybe, probably. Thanks Drew -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
On Mon, 2011-04-25 at 10:44 +0200, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
> Hi Augistine, *,
>
> On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 5:38 AM, Augustine Souza
> wrote:
> > I have no issues with a forum that is commercial presumably to [b]cover
> > costs[/b]. As Andy says, the ads are easily blocked (in that I had no need
> > to take specific steps to block ads from that site).
>
> But the point was about listing forums as "officially approved" or
> somthing along those lines, and then I don't want the forum to list
> ads.
Hi Christian.
> It is OK if it has a paypal or whatever donate link to explicitly
> cover the costs of running the server (but it must be clear that this
> is different than to donate to TDF/LO itself), but no google-adwords
> or even worse graphical ads.
In general I would like to see the ads limited and focused, but out
right banned in favor of a donate button - I don't see the difference,
do you really think that a donate button means that the money doesn't go
to the owner or that they will stop taking donations as soon as the cost
is covered.
> Also perfectly fine to list the sponsor (the one who hosts the
> forum/runs it/pays for it) the header or footer.
>
> compare http://libreoffice-forum.de/ with http://libreofficeforum.org/
>
> I don't have a problem with listing the first, but I don't want to
> link the second one as approved forum because of the ads.
> (Not to mention the lack of subcategories that has been mentioned before)
I do not like the ads and the number of them on libreofficeforum but I
would not feel so strongly is they where focused, as is it is a bit too
commercial for my taste. (actually I was totally against ads, at all, in
the beginning but I've started to change my mind on that)
What would you do with the forum at http://lo-portal.de
In or Out?
>
> And it doesn't matter whether you or others don't see it because you
> got adblock installed.
Actually it is not adbolck, it is that if you register then no ads,
IIRC.
> The other visitors that follow links from the
> lo website don't have that enabled, thus they do see the ads.
Yup that is the rub.
> So bottom line is: If you want to have your forum listed on the LO
> webpage, you must not have ads, neither textual nor graphcial
> ("sponsored by" is OK). That is my POV.
Bottom line - I think that is too stringent, but it is a close call IMO.
Thanks
Drew
--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Question about proposing the creation of a new format
2011/4/25 todd rme > On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 6:59 PM, CaStarCo wrote: > What you are proposing basically sounds like latex. But you need to > be careful to separate out the format from the software that reads the > format. Stuff like sorting tables, choosing layouts, choosing colors, > inserting other text, linking to other resources, that all has to be > handled by the program. The format just need to provide the right > information to allow the software to do this. > > > · Alternative reading flows ( I tell the "reader" that i want to > understand > > a paragraph, then the reader constructs for me the minimum text that lets > me > > to understand what I want... obviously, not with magic and not with an > > exceptional IA, we can add metadata that stablish depency relations > between > > paragraphs... for example). > > This requires the text be stored in a manner that makes it easy to > change the flow. The flow itself would be determined by the software. > This is the whole point of latex. > > > · Indexes created automaticly from the text structure, on the fly, not in > > writer time. > > · Special tags for special words (or phrases), such as definitions, > > theorems, proofs... -> the possibility of create automaticly (in reading > > time) tables of many parts of the content (such as an automatic studying > > summary or resume). In technic or scientific books could be very > > interesting. This lets to separate the narrative of a book of the capable > of > > being systematized data: definitions, theorems, proofs, formulas, tables, > > graphs, figures... > > These are the same thing. There would just need to be a tag for "put > this in the index with this label". I assume latex can do this. > > > · The capability of sorting data tables by many parameters (growing or > > decreasing order, by column, by row..) (with limitations, if the writter > > decides to lock the entire table or parts of it, then without that > > capability) -> this lets to looks at the data following the way that > helps > > us more without having to do the work of rmanually rewriting tables. > > This would be in the software, rather than the format. The format > would just need to be able to store tables as actual tables, rather > than as text with lines. > > > · Contextual data without context changes: usually, if we want to > remember > > what means a word, we have to go back in the text, or click an anchor... > if > > we are lucky, we have tabs, in other cases we have to deal with many > windows > > or with the "go back" button. A solution could be modyfing the layout in > > reading time (i suppose that the ebooks have liquid layout to suit better > in > > many different devices): If i want to read about a word, and i have the > luck > > that the word is defined in the same book, a solution could be that a > bubble > > apears in above the word with the definition written inside. (moving the > > text to avoid hiding the closer text). This lets to read the definition > > without losing the context in wich we found it, and helping the reader to > > understand it. > > This would be in the software, rather than the file format. The > format would just need to be able to store text and pictures in such a > way that it is easy to change their flow without breaking things. > Latex can do this. > > > · Reading profiles: many times, depending on the device what are we > using, > > it's preferible to use an image or other (because contrast, size, > > colors...). In the PC there are no problems, but if "we" want to expand > the > > usage of the format, it's important to convice the devices industry. > > This would be part of the software rather than the file format. Once > again, the format would need to store text in a way that it is easy to > change basic properties without breaking the layout. Latex can do > this. > > > · The capability of "hyperlinking" books by it's identificator (not > URL)... > > I'm thinking in something like IABN (it's similar to ISBN, but more > > "universal", based on SHA256). > > This wouldn't be in the format. The format would could have a way to > store unique identifiers for certain works, but actually looking up > that work would depend on the software. > > > · The capability of distinguish between many types of specialized data, > such > > as formulas, musical scores, source code, flow diagrams, and many others. > > Sounds like latex > > -- > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > deleted > > I know Latex very well, and it's not like LaTeX, I'm talking not about making layouts automaticly. I'm talking about automatic adaptation to the user needs in reading time. And, of course, I'm talking to use metadata inside the format to allow the program
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
Hi Augistine, *,
On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 5:38 AM, Augustine Souza wrote:
> I have no issues with a forum that is commercial presumably to [b]cover
> costs[/b]. As Andy says, the ads are easily blocked (in that I had no need
> to take specific steps to block ads from that site).
But the point was about listing forums as "officially approved" or
somthing along those lines, and then I don't want the forum to list
ads.
It is OK if it has a paypal or whatever donate link to explicitly
cover the costs of running the server (but it must be clear that this
is different than to donate to TDF/LO itself), but no google-adwords
or even worse graphical ads.
Also perfectly fine to list the sponsor (the one who hosts the
forum/runs it/pays for it) the header or footer.
compare http://libreoffice-forum.de/ with http://libreofficeforum.org/
I don't have a problem with listing the first, but I don't want to
link the second one as approved forum because of the ads.
(Not to mention the lack of subcategories that has been mentioned before)
And it doesn't matter whether you or others don't see it because you
got adblock installed. The other visitors that follow links from the
lo website don't have that enabled, thus they do see the ads.
So bottom line is: If you want to have your forum listed on the LO
webpage, you must not have ads, neither textual nor graphcial
("sponsored by" is OK). That is my POV.
ciao
Christian
--
Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Question about proposing the creation of a new format
On 04/25/2011 08:59 AM, todd rme wrote: Sounds like latex Apart from discussions on the characteristics of the file format, ebooks are definitely outside the scope of The Document Foundation. There are already several organizations working around ebooks, and taking care of the related problems. -- Italo Vignoli italo.vign...@gmail.com mobile +39.348.5653829 VoIP +39.02.320621813 skype italovignoli -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Question about proposing the creation of a new format
On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 6:59 PM, CaStarCo wrote: What you are proposing basically sounds like latex. But you need to be careful to separate out the format from the software that reads the format. Stuff like sorting tables, choosing layouts, choosing colors, inserting other text, linking to other resources, that all has to be handled by the program. The format just need to provide the right information to allow the software to do this. > · Alternative reading flows ( I tell the "reader" that i want to understand > a paragraph, then the reader constructs for me the minimum text that lets me > to understand what I want... obviously, not with magic and not with an > exceptional IA, we can add metadata that stablish depency relations between > paragraphs... for example). This requires the text be stored in a manner that makes it easy to change the flow. The flow itself would be determined by the software. This is the whole point of latex. > · Indexes created automaticly from the text structure, on the fly, not in > writer time. > · Special tags for special words (or phrases), such as definitions, > theorems, proofs... -> the possibility of create automaticly (in reading > time) tables of many parts of the content (such as an automatic studying > summary or resume). In technic or scientific books could be very > interesting. This lets to separate the narrative of a book of the capable of > being systematized data: definitions, theorems, proofs, formulas, tables, > graphs, figures... These are the same thing. There would just need to be a tag for "put this in the index with this label". I assume latex can do this. > · The capability of sorting data tables by many parameters (growing or > decreasing order, by column, by row..) (with limitations, if the writter > decides to lock the entire table or parts of it, then without that > capability) -> this lets to looks at the data following the way that helps > us more without having to do the work of rmanually rewriting tables. This would be in the software, rather than the format. The format would just need to be able to store tables as actual tables, rather than as text with lines. > · Contextual data without context changes: usually, if we want to remember > what means a word, we have to go back in the text, or click an anchor... if > we are lucky, we have tabs, in other cases we have to deal with many windows > or with the "go back" button. A solution could be modyfing the layout in > reading time (i suppose that the ebooks have liquid layout to suit better in > many different devices): If i want to read about a word, and i have the luck > that the word is defined in the same book, a solution could be that a bubble > apears in above the word with the definition written inside. (moving the > text to avoid hiding the closer text). This lets to read the definition > without losing the context in wich we found it, and helping the reader to > understand it. This would be in the software, rather than the file format. The format would just need to be able to store text and pictures in such a way that it is easy to change their flow without breaking things. Latex can do this. > · Reading profiles: many times, depending on the device what are we using, > it's preferible to use an image or other (because contrast, size, > colors...). In the PC there are no problems, but if "we" want to expand the > usage of the format, it's important to convice the devices industry. This would be part of the software rather than the file format. Once again, the format would need to store text in a way that it is easy to change basic properties without breaking the layout. Latex can do this. > · The capability of "hyperlinking" books by it's identificator (not URL)... > I'm thinking in something like IABN (it's similar to ISBN, but more > "universal", based on SHA256). This wouldn't be in the format. The format would could have a way to store unique identifiers for certain works, but actually looking up that work would depend on the software. > · The capability of distinguish between many types of specialized data, such > as formulas, musical scores, source code, flow diagrams, and many others. Sounds like latex -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
