Re: [tdf-discuss] New "LibreOffice Reader" Eliminates Need for "PDF Reader"

[todd rme]

On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 6:23 AM, Robert Derman
 wrote:
> Varun Mittal wrote:
>>
>> I personally feel we have more important set of priorities than
>> diversifying
>> right now into PDF reader. Also no point inventing the wheel again when
>> there are several open source pdf readers available which we can integrate
>> instead of developing one of our own.
>>
>>
>
> I am wondering do any of the open source pdf readers mentioned above work
> with Windows or are they all Linux, I mostly use Windows.

Okular should work on windows.

-Todd

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Re: [tdf-discuss] New "LibreOffice Reader" Eliminates Need for "PDF Reader"

[Marc Paré]

Le 2011-06-24 01:55, Mike Hall a écrit :

On 24/06/2011 03:59, Marc Paré wrote:

Marc Paré wrote:

This thread is really about proposing, to the devs, the possibility of
creating a "LibreOffice Reader" similar to the "Adobe .pdf Reader".

This could be an idea to investigate, but I don't know how feasible it
is; actually there is (or used to be) a "read only" mode in
OpenOffice.org and LibreOffice, but if I recall correctly the
LibreOffice developers hated it.


if we were to promote a "quick and dirty"
"LibreOffice Reader", very much like the "Adobe Acrobat Reader", whose
sole purpose is to provide the ability to "read" ".odt" files, there
would be no need to carry .pdf formatted files.

This, however, won't work. Document fidelity is not the aim of ODT
files, while it is the aim of PDF files (example: font embedding, but
one could find many more). Replacing PDF by ODT is just not feasible 
due

to the formats themselves, not to the lack of an "ODF Reader".

Regards,
   Andrea.


The initial use of the "LibreOffice Reader" would be just a plain 
reader, the challenge after this would be to try to build as much 
document fidelity into it as possible. Again, with the hopes to rival 
.pdf fidelity. Maybe once all the devs put their heads together, they 
may come up with some way to do this. Let's not forget that the Djvu 
people accomplished this to some extent. If we were to work at it we 
could surprise everyone. There is always the possibility of 
submitting any changes to the ODF, that could enhance the formats, 
through the possible channels at the ISO and OASIS of which we are 
members.


Cheers

Marc

As Andrea states, the point about PDF is that it 'locks in' the format 
of a document, allowing it to be displayed or printed everywhere as 
the user intended. All other formats created by word processors, 
including MS Office and LibO, will display and print differently on 
different computers, depending for example on the specific printer a 
user has installed. I doubt that this is something that could readily 
be fixed by tweaking ODF, it's fundamental to the way all word 
processors work. I also believe that any diversion of scarce DEV 
effort would inevitably move the focus further away from fixing the 
many bugs still in LibO, which would be counter-productive.


-1

This is only a discussion on the topic and does not mean that any groups 
will commit to it. It is just a discussion about the feasibility of 
creating a "LibreOffice Reader" and whether it would be worth it. 
Whether or not we have enough devs do not really matter at this point. 
As for locking in the format of a document, surely this could also be 
done with ODF files even if it meant proposing changes to the ODF 
formats themselves through ISO OASIS group as well as keeping 
functionality with office suites making use of the format such as 
LibreOffice.


Also, IMO, there is never a good time to suggest a new project for any 
active group (dev, design, marketing, documentation etc.) as these 
groups are always too busy ... but projects do get queued up and 
eventually looked at. Such is the nature of large projects beasts such 
as LibreOffice.


Cheers

Marc

--
Marc Paré
http://www.parEntreprise.com


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Re: [tdf-discuss] New "LibreOffice Reader" Eliminates Need for "PDF Reader"

[Mike Hall]

On 24/06/2011 03:59, Marc Paré wrote:

Marc Paré wrote:

This thread is really about proposing, to the devs, the possibility of
creating a "LibreOffice Reader" similar to the "Adobe .pdf Reader".

This could be an idea to investigate, but I don't know how feasible it
is; actually there is (or used to be) a "read only" mode in
OpenOffice.org and LibreOffice, but if I recall correctly the
LibreOffice developers hated it.


if we were to promote a "quick and dirty"
"LibreOffice Reader", very much like the "Adobe Acrobat Reader", whose
sole purpose is to provide the ability to "read" ".odt" files, there
would be no need to carry .pdf formatted files.

This, however, won't work. Document fidelity is not the aim of ODT
files, while it is the aim of PDF files (example: font embedding, but
one could find many more). Replacing PDF by ODT is just not feasible due
to the formats themselves, not to the lack of an "ODF Reader".

Regards,
   Andrea.


The initial use of the "LibreOffice Reader" would be just a plain 
reader, the challenge after this would be to try to build as much 
document fidelity into it as possible. Again, with the hopes to rival 
.pdf fidelity. Maybe once all the devs put their heads together, they 
may come up with some way to do this. Let's not forget that the Djvu 
people accomplished this to some extent. If we were to work at it we 
could surprise everyone. There is always the possibility of submitting 
any changes to the ODF, that could enhance the formats, through the 
possible channels at the ISO and OASIS of which we are members.


Cheers

Marc

As Andrea states, the point about PDF is that it 'locks in' the format 
of a document, allowing it to be displayed or printed everywhere as the 
user intended. All other formats created by word processors, including 
MS Office and LibO, will display and print differently on different 
computers, depending for example on the specific printer a user has 
installed. I doubt that this is something that could readily be fixed by 
tweaking ODF, it's fundamental to the way all word processors work. I 
also believe that any diversion of scarce DEV effort would inevitably 
move the focus further away from fixing the many bugs still in LibO, 
which would be counter-productive.


-1

--
Mike Hall
www.onepoyle.net



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RE: [tdf-discuss] New "LibreOffice Reader" Eliminates Need for "PDF Reader"

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

My Windows 7 C:\Program Files (x86)\Adobe\Reader 10.0\ folder is 181 MB.

Where do you get the 6 GB?

-Original Message-
From: Robert Derman [mailto:robert.der...@pressenter.com] 
Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 21:24
To: discuss@documentfoundation.org
Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] New "LibreOffice Reader" Eliminates Need for "PDF 
Reader"

[ ... ]
 What I 
meant by HUGE when I referred to Adobe Reader was the more than 6 Gigs 
of hard drive space it takes up!  By contrast all of the LibreOffice 
suite of programs takes up 475 Megs of space.  That means that a mere 
reader takes up more than a dozen times the space of an entire office 
suite.  If that isn't mega-bloat I don't know what is.   It has been a 
long time, but I seem to remember Adobe Reader only taking 12 Megs of 
space at one time.  It used to come included on almost all driver disks, 
now it is just too big for that. 
[ ... ]


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Re: [tdf-discuss] New "LibreOffice Reader" Eliminates Need for "PDF Reader"

[Wolf Halton]

I use a pdf reader called foxit when I am forced to fire up my windows VMs.
I am not sure of its licensing.

On Jun 24, 2011 12:26 AM, "Robert Derman" 
wrote:
> Varun Mittal wrote:
>> I personally feel we have more important set of priorities than
diversifying
>> right now into PDF reader. Also no point inventing the wheel again when
>> there are several open source pdf readers available which we can
integrate
>> instead of developing one of our own.
>>
>>
> I am wondering do any of the open source pdf readers mentioned above
> work with Windows or are they all Linux, I mostly use Windows. What I
> meant by HUGE when I referred to Adobe Reader was the more than 6 Gigs
> of hard drive space it takes up! By contrast all of the LibreOffice
> suite of programs takes up 475 Megs of space. That means that a mere
> reader takes up more than a dozen times the space of an entire office
> suite. If that isn't mega-bloat I don't know what is. It has been a
> long time, but I seem to remember Adobe Reader only taking 12 Megs of
> space at one time. It used to come included on almost all driver disks,
> now it is just too big for that.
>> Won't it be a better idea to collaborate with one of the groups
supporting
>> the pdf readers available in Linux distros ...Such cooperation will help
>> everyone focus on their core competencies.
>>
>> My 2 cents !
>>
>> Thank You
>>
>> Best Regards
>> Varun Mittal
>>
>>
>>
>>> and at the same time allow for the editing of this standard through the
>>> regular use of ODF. We do have the user support and I am not sure, but
our
>>> dev numbers are up and I think that this would make quite an interesting
and
>>> exciting project to add to the TDF line of products.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
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Re: [tdf-discuss] New "LibreOffice Reader" Eliminates Need for "PDF Reader"

[Robert Derman]

Varun Mittal wrote:

I personally feel we have more important set of priorities than diversifying
right now into PDF reader. Also no point inventing the wheel again when
there are several open source pdf readers available which we can integrate
instead of developing one of our own.

  
I am wondering do any of the open source pdf readers mentioned above 
work with Windows or are they all Linux, I mostly use Windows.  What I 
meant by HUGE when I referred to Adobe Reader was the more than 6 Gigs 
of hard drive space it takes up!  By contrast all of the LibreOffice 
suite of programs takes up 475 Megs of space.  That means that a mere 
reader takes up more than a dozen times the space of an entire office 
suite.  If that isn't mega-bloat I don't know what is.   It has been a 
long time, but I seem to remember Adobe Reader only taking 12 Megs of 
space at one time.  It used to come included on almost all driver disks, 
now it is just too big for that. 

Won't it be a better idea to collaborate with one of the groups supporting
the pdf readers available in Linux distros ...Such cooperation will help
everyone focus on their core competencies.

My 2 cents !

Thank You

Best Regards
Varun Mittal


  

and at the same time allow for the editing of this standard through the
regular use of ODF. We do have the user support and I am not sure, but our
dev numbers are up and I think that this would make quite an interesting and
exciting project to add to the TDF line of products.




  



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[tdf-discuss] ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard Enters 60-Day Public Review, prerequisite for balloting as OASIS Standard

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

Details here: 

This is a public review.

From the announcement, which provides all details on locating the specification 
and background on the process:

"Comments may be submitted to the TC by any person through the use
of the OASIS TC Comment Facility which can be located via the
button labeled "Send A Comment" at the top of the TC public home
page, [at ]

or directly at:

"

"Comments submitted by TC non-members for this work and for other
work of this TC are publicly archived and can be viewed at:



Woo Hoo!!

 - Dennis




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Re: [tdf-discuss] New "LibreOffice Reader" Eliminates Need for "PDF Reader"

[Marc Paré]

Le 2011-06-23 22:59, Varun Mittal a écrit :

I personally feel we have more important set of priorities than diversifying
right now into PDF reader. Also no point inventing the wheel again when
there are several open source pdf readers available which we can integrate
instead of developing one of our own.

Won't it be a better idea to collaborate with one of the groups supporting
the pdf readers available in Linux distros ...Such cooperation will help
everyone focus on their core competencies.

My 2 cents !

Thank You

Best Regards
Varun Mittal


This is just to discuss the topic not to commit to it. Why should we 
make use of another document format when we are trying to promote a 
competing document format? If we can, then we could try to offer 
complementary software as in our own in-house reader and then "raise the 
bar" by trying to accomplish the quality achieved in .pdf format.


Cheers

Marc

--
Marc Paré
http://www.parEntreprise.com


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Re: [tdf-discuss] New "LibreOffice Reader" Eliminates Need for "PDF Reader"

[Marc Paré]

Le 2011-06-23 17:48, Ian Lynch a écrit :


Main problem is you are effectively competing with MS Office readers that do
a similar job wit .doc but have never displaced pdf. So I think the chances
of a LibO reader displacing pdf are not very high.


IMO, we can take into account the MSO readers, but the question is to 
try compete with a more proven product and not worry about one that we 
all complain as being inferior. Perhaps the reason it has not been 
adopted is the quality of results.


Cheers

Marc

--
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http://www.parEntreprise.com


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Re: [tdf-discuss] New "LibreOffice Reader" Eliminates Need for "PDF Reader"

[Ian Lynch]

On 23 June 2011 22:40, Marc Paré  wrote:

> OK, this is just a teaser to entice people into a discussion of the
> following proposal.
>
> There is talk on the documentation list of the formats made available to
> users of our documents (manuals, reference books, etc). These for now are in
> .odt (ODF) and .pdf (Adobe) and possibly .html (being discussed on the
> documentation list).
>
> The purpose of this particular thread is NOT to continue the documentation
> thread on the merits of providing particular formats. If you are interested
> in taking this up, it is already being discussed on the documentation list.
>
> This thread is really about proposing, to the devs, the possibility of
> creating a "LibreOffice Reader" similar to the "Adobe .pdf Reader". The idea
> is that, we are in a particularly advantageous position of providing an
> excellent popular office suite with a solid and well documented format (ODF)
> and, if we were to promote a "quick and dirty" "LibreOffice Reader", very
> much like the "Adobe Acrobat Reader", whose sole purpose is to provide the
> ability to "read" ".odt" files, there would be no need to carry .pdf
> formatted files.
>
> I would like to propose the following for discussion:
>
> The "LibreOffice Reader" would have the following characteristics:
>
> * small footprint
> * capable of reading ODF formatted files ONLY and .odt in particular
> * only capable of reading and form filling, NO editing capabilities (these
> are left to the expertise of the LibreOffice suite)
> * be able to interpret any of the LibreOffice "highlighting" effects and
> "weblinking" abilities
> * as much as possible code should not stray too far from the LibreOffice
> code in order to avoid a new divergent branch of software
> * TDF adopt "LibreOffice Reader" as its first secondary software project
>
> If, such a project were adopted, LibreOffice could then be adapted in such
> a way as to complement the "LibreOffice Reader", very much like the
> relationship of the Adobe Acrobat list of software ("Acrobat X Pro" etc.)
> and their relationship with "Acrobat Reader". The LibreOffice suite could
> have added functionality that would be compatible with the "LibreOffice
> Reader" and offer interested users, an opensource alternative to the .pdf
> format.
>
> Cheers
>
> Marc
>

Main problem is you are effectively competing with MS Office readers that do
a similar job wit .doc but have never displaced pdf. So I think the chances
of a LibO reader displacing pdf are not very high.
-- 
Ian

Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ)

www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940

The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth,
Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and
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Re: [tdf-discuss] New "LibreOffice Reader" Eliminates Need for "PDF Reader"

[Varun Mittal]

I personally feel we have more important set of priorities than diversifying
right now into PDF reader. Also no point inventing the wheel again when
there are several open source pdf readers available which we can integrate
instead of developing one of our own.

Won't it be a better idea to collaborate with one of the groups supporting
the pdf readers available in Linux distros ...Such cooperation will help
everyone focus on their core competencies.

My 2 cents !

Thank You

Best Regards
Varun Mittal
Member, The Document
Foundation
Moderator, Mailing Lists

Blog 
Facebook
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"Uncertainty is the only Certainty of LIFE"
On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 10:48 AM, Marc Paré  wrote:

> and at the same time allow for the editing of this standard through the
> regular use of ODF. We do have the user support and I am not sure, but our
> dev numbers are up and I think that this would make quite an interesting and
> exciting project to add to the TDF line of products.
>

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Re: [tdf-discuss] New "LibreOffice Reader" Eliminates Need for "PDF Reader"

[Marc Paré]

Marc Paré wrote:

This thread is really about proposing, to the devs, the possibility of
creating a "LibreOffice Reader" similar to the "Adobe .pdf Reader".

This could be an idea to investigate, but I don't know how feasible it
is; actually there is (or used to be) a "read only" mode in
OpenOffice.org and LibreOffice, but if I recall correctly the
LibreOffice developers hated it.


if we were to promote a "quick and dirty"
"LibreOffice Reader", very much like the "Adobe Acrobat Reader", whose
sole purpose is to provide the ability to "read" ".odt" files, there
would be no need to carry .pdf formatted files.

This, however, won't work. Document fidelity is not the aim of ODT
files, while it is the aim of PDF files (example: font embedding, but
one could find many more). Replacing PDF by ODT is just not feasible due
to the formats themselves, not to the lack of an "ODF Reader".

Regards,
   Andrea.


The initial use of the "LibreOffice Reader" would be just a plain 
reader, the challenge after this would be to try to build as much 
document fidelity into it as possible. Again, with the hopes to rival 
.pdf fidelity. Maybe once all the devs put their heads together, they 
may come up with some way to do this. Let's not forget that the Djvu 
people accomplished this to some extent. If we were to work at it we 
could surprise everyone. There is always the possibility of submitting 
any changes to the ODF, that could enhance the formats, through the 
possible channels at the ISO and OASIS of which we are members.


Cheers

Marc

--
Marc Paré
http://www.parEntreprise.com


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Re: [tdf-discuss] New "LibreOffice Reader" Eliminates Need for "PDF Reader"

[Marc Paré]

On Thu, 2011-06-23 at 17:40 -0400, Marc Paré wrote:

OK, this is just a teaser to entice people into a discussion of the
following proposal.

There is talk on the documentation list of the formats made available to
users of our documents (manuals, reference books, etc). These for now
are in .odt (ODF) and .pdf (Adobe) and possibly .html (being discussed
on the documentation list).

Hi Marc,

Well when you say .pdf you mean a file descriptor.

How about we rather talk about ISO 3200-1, a standard often called PDF
1.7.

Perhaps we could talk about PDF/A as a standard. (Laughing, that is sure
to get a response...)

OK - so a LibreOffice reader? I would say what about an ODF reader and
there are already a few:
http://odf-viewer.findmysoft.com/
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/odfreader/

Then there are a few for mobile platforms: Android, iOS and Palm

The root problem IMO is that ODF isn't designed to do what PDF is
designed to do, meaning simply that each has a place and a purpose.

But that doesn't there isn't some room for an ODF reader with some tie
in with LibreOffice branding, per se.

Just my thought on this anyway.



Thanks,

Drew


Thanks, this in itself does support my point. Plus there is nothing to 
stop LibreOffice from being innovative and eventually serve up a piece 
of software that does exactly serve up the same quality of document as 
.pdf and at the same time allow for the editing of this standard through 
the regular use of ODF. We do have the user support and I am not sure, 
but our dev numbers are up and I think that this would make quite an 
interesting and exciting project to add to the TDF line of products.


Plus, the LibreOffice Reader would be available from the makers of the 
LibreOffice Suite group. There is nothing better than to offer up a 
family of software products that play well together and opensource as well.


Cheers

Marc

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Re: [tdf-discuss] New "LibreOffice Reader" Eliminates Need for "PDF Reader"

[Marc Paré]

Simon Phipps wrote:

On 23 Jun 2011, at 23:32, Marc Paré wrote:

I think it was mentioned that there were at one point over 100 
million LibreOffice/OOo users. If we were to develop our own 
"LibreOffice Reader" we would already have 100 million potential 
users for our product. Not only that, the LibreOffice Reader would 
be compatible with the LibreOffice suite and possibly code. This 
would give the LibO Reader a good start.



ODF and PDF are actually complementary. One is a format for editable 
documents, the other is a format for final-form documents. I suggest 
that the best path forward would be to seek a single, lightweight, 
cross-platform reader for both formats. That would address by far the 
largest opportunity.


S.
IIRC Adobe Reader has bloated over the last couple of years from a 
very lean program for reading PDF files to something very huge.  Also 
the auto update updates versions all too frequently.


I can't see a reason for which we could not create a competitive product 
that does not align itself with Adobre Reader. Our user base will create 
enough initial impetus to create a need as well as create buzz over the 
software.


Cheers

Marc

--
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Re: [tdf-discuss] New "LibreOffice Reader" Eliminates Need for "PDF Reader"

[Marc Paré]

@Mark&  others

I like the idea, don't get me wrong.  But sadly it is hard for developers out 
there to make just a viewer when some other folks have that :( already.  It 
would be nice if more people, sed -i 's|people|users|g' out there would use the 
OpenDocument format (*.odt) and not pdf to share documents, then the idea would 
become more intriguing.  This new viewer would have to compete against those 
viewers that exist plus Google Docs :(, which I don't know if it* supports 
OpenDocument Format (*.odt) files?

Sadly, it is *very difficult* to change people's minds when it comes to 
document standards and formats.  I agree with folks that mention that Adobe has 
become a **bloated monster** that used to be lean and excellent, and with its 
increasing bloat there also comes security issues and constant updates :(

My $0.04 (previous $0.02 + this $0.02) don't add sales tax please :)

Regards,

Antonio


It does seem that we already have a "usership" 100 million users. If 
this is true, then that would in itself make for a good base of users to 
create such a piece of software. As we are opensource, there is nothing 
wrong with if other folks alread have a viewer. However, the upside, is 
that our viewer would come from the makers of the actual pices of 
software from which people make the most use of the ODF.


Cheers

Marc

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Re: [tdf-discuss] New "LibreOffice Reader" Eliminates Need for "PDF Reader"

[Nuno J. Silva]

On 2011-06-24, Andrea Pescetti wrote:

> Marc Paré wrote:
>> if we were to promote a "quick and dirty" 
>> "LibreOffice Reader", very much like the "Adobe Acrobat Reader", whose 
>> sole purpose is to provide the ability to "read" ".odt" files, there 
>> would be no need to carry .pdf formatted files.

Heh. :-) Don't use Adobe Reader as an example of a "reader", use
instead some other PDF reader with a reasonable memory and disk space
footprint. (Unless that's what you meant by "quick and dirty".)

> This, however, won't work. Document fidelity is not the aim of ODT
> files, while it is the aim of PDF files (example: font embedding, but
> one could find many more). Replacing PDF by ODT is just not feasible due
> to the formats themselves, not to the lack of an "ODF Reader".

Font embedding is an issue, it could render the viewer useless.

It's possible, at least, to make some room for "compatible documents",
by shipping a set of fonts with the viewer and announcing that as the
"standard fonts" for ODF viewer.

Unless there's some required feature of ODT that's not possible to
reproduce in PDF, I suggest keeping with PDF for now: it is designed for
portability and it's vectorial, so there's no loss.


Someone suggested djvu (DeJaVU). I like djvu, I use it and I and spread
the word about it, but IMHO it's main use is for scanned documents
(making it so entire books can fit in a floppy!). 

Even if a pdf is larger than a djvu for the same document, if it was
directly exported to pdf, it's vectorial. Converting to djvu makes it
raster. IMHO that's a bad idea. YMMV.

-- 
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gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg

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Re: [tdf-discuss] New "LibreOffice Reader" Eliminates Need for "PDF Reader"

[Antonio Olivares]

--- On Thu, 6/23/11, Marc Paré  wrote:

> From: Marc Paré 
> Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] New "LibreOffice Reader" Eliminates Need for "PDF 
> Reader"
> To: discuss@documentfoundation.org
> Date: Thursday, June 23, 2011, 3:32 PM
> Hi Antonio
> 
> Le 2011-06-23 18:05, Antonio Olivares a écrit :
> >
> > Marc,
> >
> > Idea sounds good, but there is also another competitor
> out there to the famous PDF :
> >
> > http://djvu.sourceforge.net/
> >
> > How about adding editing/viewing djvu compatibility to
> LibreOffice too?
> >
> > I for one (except under windows) use
> evince/okular/xpdf or other free viewers out there as
> opposed to using Acrobat Reader :)  Having LibreOffice
> open word/excel/powerpoint/pdf is excellent, but adding djvu
> will also enhance it and make it even better (others don't
> have this capability).  But keep the full suite, don't
> worry about a reader some folks already have a odt/doc/xls
> viewer on the windows side:
> >
> > http://www.officeviewers.com/
> >
> > Someone mentioned this, I think that it would be not
> necessary to ask programmer to make a reader?  Doing
> more work when other similar software exists?
> > Unless if that software is (NOT FREE)/(OPEN SOURCE),
> there would be little to no gains if a LibreOffice Reader is
> created?
> >
> > BTW
> > I am a LibreOffice user not a programmer and happily
> use it on Windows, Linux, and FreeBSD.
> >
> > Just my $0.02.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> >
> > Antonio
> >
> I also use Okular, although, I have found some cases where
> it would not 
> print some .pdf's correctly. Djvu is neat, however, it is
> still 
> struggling trying to make headway in being adopted.
> 
> I think it was mentioned that there were at one point over
> 100 million 
> LibreOffice/OOo users. If we were to develop our own
> "LibreOffice 
> Reader" we would already have 100 million potential users
> for our 
> product. Not only that, the LibreOffice Reader would be
> compatible with 
> the LibreOffice suite and possibly code. This would give
> the LibO Reader 
> a good start.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Marc
> 
> -- 

@Mark & others

I like the idea, don't get me wrong.  But sadly it is hard for developers out 
there to make just a viewer when some other folks have that :( already.  It 
would be nice if more people, sed -i 's|people|users|g' out there would use the 
OpenDocument format (*.odt) and not pdf to share documents, then the idea would 
become more intriguing.  This new viewer would have to compete against those 
viewers that exist plus Google Docs :(, which I don't know if it* supports 
OpenDocument Format (*.odt) files?  

Sadly, it is *very difficult* to change people's minds when it comes to 
document standards and formats.  I agree with folks that mention that Adobe has 
become a **bloated monster** that used to be lean and excellent, and with its 
increasing bloat there also comes security issues and constant updates :(  

My $0.04 (previous $0.02 + this $0.02) don't add sales tax please :)

Regards,

Antonio 


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[tdf-discuss] Re: New "LibreOffice Reader" Eliminates Need for "PDF Reader"

[plino]

Here is another free one (for Windows only)

http://www.officeviewers.com

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Re: [tdf-discuss] New "LibreOffice Reader" Eliminates Need for "PDF Reader"

[Robert Derman]

Simon Phipps wrote:

On 23 Jun 2011, at 23:32, Marc Paré wrote:

  

I think it was mentioned that there were at one point over 100 million LibreOffice/OOo 
users. If we were to develop our own "LibreOffice Reader" we would already have 
100 million potential users for our product. Not only that, the LibreOffice Reader would 
be compatible with the LibreOffice suite and possibly code. This would give the LibO 
Reader a good start.




ODF and PDF are actually complementary. One is a format for editable documents, 
the other is a format for final-form documents. I suggest that the best path 
forward would be to seek a single, lightweight, cross-platform reader for both 
formats. That would address by far the largest opportunity.

S.
  
IIRC Adobe Reader has bloated over the last couple of years from a very 
lean program for reading PDF files to something very huge.  Also the 
auto update updates versions all too frequently. 


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Re: [tdf-discuss] New "LibreOffice Reader" Eliminates Need for "PDF Reader"

[Andrea Pescetti]

Marc Paré wrote:
> This thread is really about proposing, to the devs, the possibility of 
> creating a "LibreOffice Reader" similar to the "Adobe .pdf Reader".

This could be an idea to investigate, but I don't know how feasible it
is; actually there is (or used to be) a "read only" mode in
OpenOffice.org and LibreOffice, but if I recall correctly the
LibreOffice developers hated it.

> if we were to promote a "quick and dirty" 
> "LibreOffice Reader", very much like the "Adobe Acrobat Reader", whose 
> sole purpose is to provide the ability to "read" ".odt" files, there 
> would be no need to carry .pdf formatted files.

This, however, won't work. Document fidelity is not the aim of ODT
files, while it is the aim of PDF files (example: font embedding, but
one could find many more). Replacing PDF by ODT is just not feasible due
to the formats themselves, not to the lack of an "ODF Reader".

Regards,
  Andrea.


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[tdf-discuss] Debian moves to LibreOffice

[elcico2001 एल्चिको]

Hello *,

http://www.debian.org/News/2011/20110623

Namastè *!


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Re: [tdf-discuss] New "LibreOffice Reader" Eliminates Need for "PDF Reader"

[drew]

On Thu, 2011-06-23 at 17:40 -0400, Marc Paré wrote:
> OK, this is just a teaser to entice people into a discussion of the 
> following proposal.
> 
> There is talk on the documentation list of the formats made available to 
> users of our documents (manuals, reference books, etc). These for now 
> are in .odt (ODF) and .pdf (Adobe) and possibly .html (being discussed 
> on the documentation list).

Hi Marc,

Well when you say .pdf you mean a file descriptor.

How about we rather talk about ISO 3200-1, a standard often called PDF
1.7.

Perhaps we could talk about PDF/A as a standard. (Laughing, that is sure
to get a response...)

OK - so a LibreOffice reader? I would say what about an ODF reader and
there are already a few:
http://odf-viewer.findmysoft.com/
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/odfreader/

Then there are a few for mobile platforms: Android, iOS and Palm

The root problem IMO is that ODF isn't designed to do what PDF is
designed to do, meaning simply that each has a place and a purpose.

But that doesn't there isn't some room for an ODF reader with some tie
in with LibreOffice branding, per se.

Just my thought on this anyway.



Thanks,

Drew


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Re: [tdf-discuss] New "LibreOffice Reader" Eliminates Need for "PDF Reader"

[Simon Phipps]

On 23 Jun 2011, at 23:32, Marc Paré wrote:

> 
> 
> I think it was mentioned that there were at one point over 100 million 
> LibreOffice/OOo users. If we were to develop our own "LibreOffice Reader" we 
> would already have 100 million potential users for our product. Not only 
> that, the LibreOffice Reader would be compatible with the LibreOffice suite 
> and possibly code. This would give the LibO Reader a good start.


ODF and PDF are actually complementary. One is a format for editable documents, 
the other is a format for final-form documents. I suggest that the best path 
forward would be to seek a single, lightweight, cross-platform reader for both 
formats. That would address by far the largest opportunity.

S.


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Re: [tdf-discuss] New "LibreOffice Reader" Eliminates Need for "PDF Reader"

[Marc Paré]

Hi Antonio

Le 2011-06-23 18:05, Antonio Olivares a écrit :


Marc,

Idea sounds good, but there is also another competitor out there to the famous 
PDF :

http://djvu.sourceforge.net/

How about adding editing/viewing djvu compatibility to LibreOffice too?

I for one (except under windows) use evince/okular/xpdf or other free viewers 
out there as opposed to using Acrobat Reader :)  Having LibreOffice open 
word/excel/powerpoint/pdf is excellent, but adding djvu will also enhance it 
and make it even better (others don't have this capability).  But keep the full 
suite, don't worry about a reader some folks already have a odt/doc/xls viewer 
on the windows side:

http://www.officeviewers.com/

Someone mentioned this, I think that it would be not necessary to ask 
programmer to make a reader?  Doing more work when other similar software 
exists?
Unless if that software is (NOT FREE)/(OPEN SOURCE), there would be little to 
no gains if a LibreOffice Reader is created?

BTW
I am a LibreOffice user not a programmer and happily use it on Windows, Linux, 
and FreeBSD.

Just my $0.02.

Regards,


Antonio

I also use Okular, although, I have found some cases where it would not 
print some .pdf's correctly. Djvu is neat, however, it is still 
struggling trying to make headway in being adopted.


I think it was mentioned that there were at one point over 100 million 
LibreOffice/OOo users. If we were to develop our own "LibreOffice 
Reader" we would already have 100 million potential users for our 
product. Not only that, the LibreOffice Reader would be compatible with 
the LibreOffice suite and possibly code. This would give the LibO Reader 
a good start.


Cheers

Marc

--
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http://www.parEntreprise.com


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Re: [tdf-discuss] New "LibreOffice Reader" Eliminates Need for "PDF Reader"

[Antonio Olivares]

--- On Thu, 6/23/11, Marc Paré  wrote:

> From: Marc Paré 
> Subject: [tdf-discuss] New "LibreOffice Reader" Eliminates Need for "PDF 
> Reader"
> To: discuss@documentfoundation.org
> Date: Thursday, June 23, 2011, 2:40 PM
> OK, this is just a teaser to entice
> people into a discussion of the following proposal.
> 
> There is talk on the documentation list of the formats made
> available to users of our documents (manuals, reference
> books, etc). These for now are in .odt (ODF) and .pdf
> (Adobe) and possibly .html (being discussed on the
> documentation list).
> 
> The purpose of this particular thread is NOT to continue
> the documentation thread on the merits of providing
> particular formats. If you are interested in taking this up,
> it is already being discussed on the documentation list.
> 
> This thread is really about proposing, to the devs, the
> possibility of creating a "LibreOffice Reader" similar to
> the "Adobe .pdf Reader". The idea is that, we are in a
> particularly advantageous position of providing an excellent
> popular office suite with a solid and well documented format
> (ODF) and, if we were to promote a "quick and dirty"
> "LibreOffice Reader", very much like the "Adobe Acrobat
> Reader", whose sole purpose is to provide the ability to
> "read" ".odt" files, there would be no need to carry .pdf
> formatted files.
> 
> I would like to propose the following for discussion:
> 
> The "LibreOffice Reader" would have the following
> characteristics:
> 
> * small footprint
> * capable of reading ODF formatted files ONLY and .odt in
> particular
> * only capable of reading and form filling, NO editing
> capabilities (these are left to the expertise of the
> LibreOffice suite)
> * be able to interpret any of the LibreOffice
> "highlighting" effects and "weblinking" abilities
> * as much as possible code should not stray too far from
> the LibreOffice code in order to avoid a new divergent
> branch of software
> * TDF adopt "LibreOffice Reader" as its first secondary
> software project
> 
> If, such a project were adopted, LibreOffice could then be
> adapted in such a way as to complement the "LibreOffice
> Reader", very much like the relationship of the Adobe
> Acrobat list of software ("Acrobat X Pro" etc.) and their
> relationship with "Acrobat Reader". The LibreOffice suite
> could have added functionality that would be compatible with
> the "LibreOffice Reader" and offer interested users, an
> opensource alternative to the .pdf format.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Marc


Marc,

Idea sounds good, but there is also another competitor out there to the famous 
PDF :

http://djvu.sourceforge.net/

How about adding editing/viewing djvu compatibility to LibreOffice too?

I for one (except under windows) use evince/okular/xpdf or other free viewers 
out there as opposed to using Acrobat Reader :)  Having LibreOffice open 
word/excel/powerpoint/pdf is excellent, but adding djvu will also enhance it 
and make it even better (others don't have this capability).  But keep the full 
suite, don't worry about a reader some folks already have a odt/doc/xls viewer 
on the windows side:

http://www.officeviewers.com/

Someone mentioned this, I think that it would be not necessary to ask 
programmer to make a reader?  Doing more work when other similar software 
exists? 
Unless if that software is (NOT FREE)/(OPEN SOURCE), there would be little to 
no gains if a LibreOffice Reader is created?   

BTW
I am a LibreOffice user not a programmer and happily use it on Windows, Linux, 
and FreeBSD.   

Just my $0.02.

Regards,


Antonio 

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[tdf-discuss] New "LibreOffice Reader" Eliminates Need for "PDF Reader"

[Marc Paré]

OK, this is just a teaser to entice people into a discussion of the 
following proposal.


There is talk on the documentation list of the formats made available to 
users of our documents (manuals, reference books, etc). These for now 
are in .odt (ODF) and .pdf (Adobe) and possibly .html (being discussed 
on the documentation list).


The purpose of this particular thread is NOT to continue the 
documentation thread on the merits of providing particular formats. If 
you are interested in taking this up, it is already being discussed on 
the documentation list.


This thread is really about proposing, to the devs, the possibility of 
creating a "LibreOffice Reader" similar to the "Adobe .pdf Reader". The 
idea is that, we are in a particularly advantageous position of 
providing an excellent popular office suite with a solid and well 
documented format (ODF) and, if we were to promote a "quick and dirty" 
"LibreOffice Reader", very much like the "Adobe Acrobat Reader", whose 
sole purpose is to provide the ability to "read" ".odt" files, there 
would be no need to carry .pdf formatted files.


I would like to propose the following for discussion:

The "LibreOffice Reader" would have the following characteristics:

* small footprint
* capable of reading ODF formatted files ONLY and .odt in particular
* only capable of reading and form filling, NO editing capabilities 
(these are left to the expertise of the LibreOffice suite)
* be able to interpret any of the LibreOffice "highlighting" effects and 
"weblinking" abilities
* as much as possible code should not stray too far from the LibreOffice 
code in order to avoid a new divergent branch of software

* TDF adopt "LibreOffice Reader" as its first secondary software project

If, such a project were adopted, LibreOffice could then be adapted in 
such a way as to complement the "LibreOffice Reader", very much like the 
relationship of the Adobe Acrobat list of software ("Acrobat X Pro" 
etc.) and their relationship with "Acrobat Reader". The LibreOffice 
suite could have added functionality that would be compatible with the 
"LibreOffice Reader" and offer interested users, an opensource 
alternative to the .pdf format.


Cheers

Marc


--
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http://www.parEntreprise.com


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[tdf-discuss] Re: [Libreoffice] Hackfest - September 9th, Ohio Linux Fest

[drew]

Just a quick note.

Have sent off the formal request to the OHLF organizers..will keep folks
posted as specifics firm up.

Thanks,

drew


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Sponsored Bug Repair ?

[Robert Derman]

Cor Nouws wrote:

Hi Samuel,

Samuel M wrote (23-06-11 17:06)

Why should'nt TDF go ahead and employ one of the former OOo
developers or someone else from the community? I think there would be
much interest from users and companys to pay for fixing bugs /
implementing new features.


Employing people is not such an easy thing. For example because you 
want to offer some sort of continuity.
Looking at the LibreOffice ecosystem, it is successful because more 
and more companies give support. So the most natural to me, seems a 
situation where funding supports them in supporting :-)
On the other hand, in the possible situation that there are so many 
smaller donations, that employing (a) developer(s) might be an option, 
but then in a way that there is no direct competition between TDF and 
the sponsoring entities.
At that moment I think working with bounties could be a useful 
construction for that, which maybe also helps even further growing the 
community of non-bound developers.


Regards,
The idea of bounties sounds better to me than actually having developers 
on payroll.  For one thing it is far less complicated from a tax and 
accounting standpoint.   Also bounties would work better from the 
standpoint of fixing individual bugs and adding individual 
enhancements.  For instance what if a time arrives when for a few weeks 
at a time no one knows of a specific need?


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Sponsored Bug Repair ?

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Samuel,

Samuel M wrote (23-06-11 17:06)

Why should'nt TDF go ahead and employ one of the former OOo
developers or someone else from the community? I think there would be
much interest from users and companys to pay for fixing bugs /
implementing new features.


Employing people is not such an easy thing. For example because you want 
to offer some sort of continuity.
Looking at the LibreOffice ecosystem, it is successful because more and 
more companies give support. So the most natural to me, seems a 
situation where funding supports them in supporting :-)
On the other hand, in the possible situation that there are so many 
smaller donations, that employing (a) developer(s) might be an option, 
but then in a way that there is no direct competition between TDF and 
the sponsoring entities.
At that moment I think working with bounties could be a useful 
construction for that, which maybe also helps even further growing the 
community of non-bound developers.


Regards,


--
 - Cor
 - http://nl.libreoffice.org


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Sponsored Bug Repair ?

[yahoo-pier_andreit]

Il 23/06/2011 16:29, Cor Nouws ha scritto:

Hi Fernand,

Fernand Vanrie wrote (23-06-11 16:08)

I hope Michael and other TDF-members are reading this.

As we love to have a Email body when sending emails with the API, our
company is willing to fund this kind of repair work.


Repair or enhancement...
(Side note on the subject: I can imagine that somehow the Python
component could be useful.)


The interested makes a Enhancement request
The TDF put a price on it
The interested pays TDF in advance
After TDF and interested is satisfied TDF pays the Developer or keeps
the money for other projects
Simple ?


Sounds reasonable.
However ... TDF does not employ developers.
Developers are employees of sponsoring companies, or students, or
(other) volunteers, or self employed...

So either your company makes a deal with one of the supporting companies
for the work, or find another developer to do the work.

Of course it makes most sense if the developer that picks up the task
has experience with LibreOffice/OpenOffice.

I have hardly any experience in other open source projects, but I can
imagine that setting up a page with bounty-projects, is a reasonable
approach to broadcast both your and other wishes/possibilities.

What do you think?

Regards,

I think it could be a good idea, TDF could have the role to gather the 
propose of enhancement and to inform the developers tha there is this 
possibility.
hazarding a guess if an hypotethic Mr Steve Jobs of an hypotetic company 
named apple would like a feature such as when you click on print a blue 
screen appears, and offer 254$, TDF could inform the developers, and an 
hypothetic developer such as Mr Bill Gates of an hypothetic company 
microsoft could answer ok, and develope a such interesting feature, if 
it isn't already patented :-)


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==
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- modi migliori per utilizzare e risparmiare energia.
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Sponsored Bug Repair ?

[Samuel M]

Why should'nt TDF go ahead and employ one of the former OOo developers or 
someone else from the community?
I think there would be much interest from users and companys to pay for fixing 
bugs / implementing new features.



- Ursprüngliche Message -
Von: Cor Nouws 
An: discuss@documentfoundation.org
Cc: 
Gesendet: 16:29 Donnerstag, 23.Juni 2011 
Betreff: Re: [tdf-discuss] Sponsored Bug Repair ?

Hi Fernand,

Fernand Vanrie wrote (23-06-11 16:08)
> I hope Michael and other TDF-members are reading this.
> 
> As we love to have a Email body when sending emails with the API, our
> company is willing to fund this kind of repair work.

Repair or enhancement...
(Side note on the subject: I can imagine that somehow the Python component 
could be useful.)

> The interested makes a Enhancement request
> The TDF put a price on it
> The interested pays TDF in advance
> After TDF and interested is satisfied TDF pays the Developer or keeps
> the money for other projects
> Simple ?

Sounds reasonable.
However ... TDF does not employ developers.
Developers are employees of sponsoring companies, or students, or (other) 
volunteers, or self employed...

So either your company makes a deal with one of the supporting companies for 
the work, or find another developer to do the work.

Of course it makes most sense if the developer that picks up the task has 
experience with LibreOffice/OpenOffice.

I have hardly any experience in other open source projects, but I can imagine 
that setting up a page with bounty-projects, is a reasonable approach to 
broadcast both your and other wishes/possibilities.

What do you think?

Regards,

--  - Cor
- http://nl.libreoffice.org


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Things a Hackfest facilitator should know ws ( Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Hackfest - September 9th, Ohio Linux Fest )

[drew]

On Thu, 2011-06-23 at 10:44 -0400, drew wrote:


> So - my thinking here is that the important items to have in place
> (someone) has to be able to competently field/handle/help with the
> following:
> 
> Getting the source code from the GIT repositories.
> Finding the Easy Hacks page.
> Work with our bugzilla system (including pulling lists of bugs/feature
> requests for given search criteria)
> Connecting with the developers on IRC

How to to do a backtrace. (setting up gdb under linux I suppose, does
this then mean also a debug enabled build?)




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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Hackfest - September 9th, Ohio Linux Fest

[drew]

Hi LeMoyne, et al

On Mon, 2011-06-20 at 23:46 -0700, John LeMoyne Castle wrote:
> Seems to me this thread used to be longer in Nabble 8-0  

Different Mailing List.

> I am still interested Drew and I had this thought: 
> Even if a HackFest can't be drawn together it would be very useful to the
> attendees and LibreOffice to have at least a table where people could report
> issues (as new or as confirmation of existing issues), get coaching on
> appropriate upgrades, and maybe do a little testing around their known
> issues, hard to reproduce issues or just visit areas that are important to
> them as users. 
> Seems like an excellent chance for solid feedback from committed and
> skillful users. 

Thanks for the feedback LeMoyne.

Yes a table is planned for sure.

User feedback is a big reason to be there and I've been a bit tardy in
getting a report up on such from the last event. I'll try to rectify
that later today. (Hint - mail merge is a big deal to business users)

Our release options was already a point that came up in the last event
also. 

So - my thinking here is that the important items to have in place
(someone) has to be able to competently field/handle/help with the
following:

Getting the source code from the GIT repositories.
Finding the Easy Hacks page.
Work with our bugzilla system (including pulling lists of bugs/feature
requests for given search criteria)
Connecting with the developers on IRC

Alright that is a pretty short list.

What else should go on that?

Thanks

//drew




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Re: [tdf-discuss] When can we have a API to send Emails ?

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Fernand,

Fernand Vanrie wrote (22-06-11 14:18)

For some reasons the developpers off the OO-API has decided to not allow
sending Emails using there API

[...]


Not sure if this has been mentioned already, and/or is of use for you, 
but since years I use an dispatch command for the task:


   executeDispatch(oDocFrame, ".uno:SendMailDocAsMS", "", 0, Array())
or
   executeDispatch(oDocFrame, ".uno:SendMailDocAsPDF", "", 0, Array())

Regards,
Cor
(sorry for being late with this)

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[tdf-discuss] Re: When can we have a API to send Emails ?

[Alexander Thurgood]

Le 23/06/11 15:44, Fernand Vanrie a écrit :

Hi Fernand,

> 
> Thanks for yoyr reply, but how do we acces this with the API ?
> 
> Greetz
> 

>From my reading of the bits in the code I could find, it is not
implemented. Now that I think of it, I seem to recall that this all came
from the StarOffice dektop days and the Calendar Scheduler, where
e-mails could be sent. From what I recall, there was some kind of
scaremongering about being able to spam people using StarOffice with
potentially dangerous payloads (macros and whatnot), so the mail
functionality got pulled / reduced. It was also all developed from the
MAPI-like interface, but like I said, distant memories that may or may
not be more or less accurate.

Alex


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Sponsored Bug Repair ?

[Cor Nouws]

Hi Fernand,

Fernand Vanrie wrote (23-06-11 16:08)

I hope Michael and other TDF-members are reading this.

As we love to have a Email body when sending emails with the API, our
company is willing to fund this kind of repair work.


Repair or enhancement...
(Side note on the subject: I can imagine that somehow the Python 
component could be useful.)



The interested makes a Enhancement request
The TDF put a price on it
The interested pays TDF in advance
After TDF and interested is satisfied TDF pays the Developer or keeps
the money for other projects
Simple ?


Sounds reasonable.
However ... TDF does not employ developers.
Developers are employees of sponsoring companies, or students, or 
(other) volunteers, or self employed...


So either your company makes a deal with one of the supporting companies 
for the work, or find another developer to do the work.


Of course it makes most sense if the developer that picks up the task 
has experience with LibreOffice/OpenOffice.


I have hardly any experience in other open source projects, but I can 
imagine that setting up a page with bounty-projects, is a reasonable 
approach to broadcast both your and other wishes/possibilities.


What do you think?

Regards,

--
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 - http://nl.libreoffice.org


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[tdf-discuss] Sponsored Bug Repair ?

[Fernand Vanrie]

I hope Michael and other TDF-members are reading this.

As we love to have a Email body when sending emails with the API, our 
compagny is willing to fund this kind of repair work.


The interested makes a Enhancement request
The TDF put a price on it
The interested pays TDF in advance
After TDF and interested is satisfied TDF pays the Developer our keeps 
the money for other projects

Simple ?

Fernand

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Re: [tdf-discuss] When can we have a API to send Emails ?

[Fernand Vanrie]

Andrew ,

I use this option for years, just a pitty we can not do this using our 
beloved API :-) and when making a extention not all users has  the same 
"client" on there machine


Greetz

Fernand

On 06/22/2011 08:18 AM, Fernand Vanrie wrote:
For some reasons the developpers off the OO-API has decided to not 
allow sending Emails using there API


I believe that all of these use the command line to send an email 
message using an existing client, which then limits the message that 
can be sent. Been a long time since I looked at this.





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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: When can we have a API to send Emails ?

[Fernand Vanrie]

Alex,

Thanks for yoyr reply, but how do we acces this with the API ?

Greetz

Fernand

Le 22/06/11 14:18, Fernand Vanrie a écrit :

Hi Fernand,



For some reasons the developpers off the OO-API has decided to not allow
sending Emails using there API



imho the mechanism is in place



Well, one can already find :

const rtl::OUString BODY(RTL_CONSTASCII_USTRINGPARAM("--body"));

in smplmailclient.cxx

But this doesn't seem to be used anywhere else.


Alex





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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Hackfest - September 9th, Ohio Linux Fest

[drew]

On Thu, 2011-06-23 at 09:07 -0400, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote:
> 
> On 06/21/2011 11:08 AM, drew wrote:


> > Anyway - would really be excited about you participating - I'm kind of
> > running blind as to what exactly is needed for this. Might be over
> > thinking it (I have that tendency at times).
> I was personally asked to submit a talk after things were closed. 

Great 

> Sooo I would submit something if you desire and send an email 
> personally, especially for something like a table.

- that will just have go to them today then.

> 
> Took me a while to subscribe My initial attempts while sending email 
> simply failed for no reason obvious to me; but it was likely user error.

Adios amigo,

//drew


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Hackfest - September 9th, Ohio Linux Fest

[Andrew Douglas Pitonyak]

On 06/21/2011 11:08 AM, drew wrote:

On Tue, 2011-06-21 at 08:25 -0400, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote:

I proposed a talk on OOo / LO and plan to attend. Did not put in much
time on the proposal so not sure if it will be accepted. If something is
happening there, count me in.



No formal proposal to them yet, but was thinking that is a good way to
ping her - didn't check if the OHLF website is still taking them as the
cut-off date has passed - so might still have to rely on a direct email.

Anyway - would really be excited about you participating - I'm kind of
running blind as to what exactly is needed for this. Might be over
thinking it (I have that tendency at times).
I was personally asked to submit a talk after things were closed. 
Sooo I would submit something if you desire and send an email 
personally, especially for something like a table.


Took me a while to subscribe My initial attempts while sending email 
simply failed for no reason obvious to me; but it was likely user error.


--
Andrew Pitonyak
My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt
Info:  http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php


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Re: [tdf-discuss] When can we have a API to send Emails ?

[Andrew Douglas Pitonyak]

On 06/22/2011 08:18 AM, Fernand Vanrie wrote:
For some reasons the developpers off the OO-API has decided to not 
allow sending Emails using there API


I believe that all of these use the command line to send an email 
message using an existing client, which then limits the message that can 
be sent. Been a long time since I looked at this.


--
Andrew Pitonyak
My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt
Info:  http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php


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[tdf-discuss] Re: When can we have a API to send Emails ?

[Alexander Thurgood]

Le 22/06/11 14:18, Fernand Vanrie a écrit :

Hi Fernand,


> For some reasons the developpers off the OO-API has decided to not allow
> sending Emails using there API
> 
> 
> 
> imho the mechanism is in place
> 


Well, one can already find :

const rtl::OUString BODY(RTL_CONSTASCII_USTRINGPARAM("--body"));

in smplmailclient.cxx

But this doesn't seem to be used anywhere else.


Alex


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Re: [tdf-discuss] TDF Certification

[Goran Rakic]

У чет, 23. 06 2011. у 10:41 +0100, Ian Lynch пише:
> All it needs to do is have a set of criteria or even a simple
> contractual statement that the partner company providing services on
> behalf of the community will uphold community principles and not bring
> it into disrepute. 

Why the such contract is required? If trademark policy allows you to do
the certification business, what is the point of the having a contract?

Are you suggesting there should be some exclusivity where only those who
are signing a contract with TDF can do the certification? I see this as
a real danger for the community.

Your contribution in terms of learning materials and LibreOffice
promotion is valuable as such, I do not see why would you need further
endorsements.

Kind regards,
Goran Rakic


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RE : Re: [tdf-discuss] TDF Certification

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Hi,

I don't think the TDF Certification is meant to cover end users. It's meant
to cover professionnal service providers providing services to
customers/users.

I believe such a certification is an opportunity to advance TDF's
Sustainability and foster a business ecosystem around it. I think that the
three first issues we'll have to tackle are the certification process
itself, the pricing and scaling (3persons company sould not be treated less
well than karger corporations) and the scope of the certification
itself(what do we certify?)

Best,

Charles.

Le 23 juin 2011, 11:59 AM, "Charles-H. Schulz" <
charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org> a écrit :

Le Thu, 23 Jun 2011 04:27:57 +0200,
Goran Rakic  a écrit :

> Hi all, > > I believe that TDF should not do any kind of end-user
certification. > > Instead, ...

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Re: [tdf-discuss] TDF Certification

[Carlo Strata]

Il 22/06/2011 00:23, Italo Vignoli ha scritto:

The document is on the wiki.

http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDFCertification

This might become a huge project, and a new business model for free 
software on the desktop. A challenge for the entire community, and one 
of the reasons for having an independent foundation and not a house 
for the code.


Contents are not confidential, of course, as otherwise they would not 
be on the wiki, but it must be clear that this is going to become a 
real project after a long incubation.


Everyone is warmly invited to comment and provide suggestions.

Ciao, Italo



Hi Italo,

I haven't read the page yet, but I think it is a great and useful idea 
and project...!!!


I read soon the mailing list and the page and its updates.

Thank you,

Carlo


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Re: [tdf-discuss] TDF Certification

[Ian Lynch]

On 23 June 2011 03:27, Goran Rakic  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I believe that TDF should not do any kind of end-user certification.
>

Maybe you are right that TDF shouldn't do it itself but I don't think that
is the same as not having an interest in it.

I have spent 6 years researching and building the infrastructure to support
end-user certification for FOSS applications. We know there is demand - we
have UK schools with 500 students doing the generic versions of our
certificates and we have evidence that some of those MS Office users have
migrated to OOo as a direct result. That in itself is part of the strategy.

Instead, I am more in line with a certification ecosystem focused on
> corporate and individual partners that provide value added services.
>

If you mean things like training, installation and migration it is something
very different from certificating end-user skills and requires its own set
of expertise. Moodle does this successfully so it would be worth talking to
Martin Dougiamas about that.  Moodle is a bit different from LibO because it
needs setting up in schools and colleges so there is a more obvious need for
third party supporting companies. Moodle restricts the use of its trademark
to approved partners.

IANAL, but as I am reading trademark policy correctly nothing stops a

> third-party to issue end-user certification targeting LibreOffice, using
> both name and logo ("Certificate of qualification for LibreOffice").
>

This is true and we have copyright clearance from Oracle for the use of the
OOo trademarks. However, community endorsement will help strengthen the
proposals and might even be necessary in some markets. If the community
simply allows third parties to do this without any thought, it is missing an
opportunity to get revenue into development and marketing for very little
effort or risk. Maybe you think there is enough volunteer resource and
donations but my view is that it is difficult to be over-resourced. MSFT is
arguably and exception :-) LibO needs to migrate to the Web and/or
Smartphones - where will the resources come to achieve that?

These end users certificates issued by third-parties can be in line with
> the national skills framework, ECDL or something else. While personally
> do not think greatly of these skills frameworks, for the users they give
> more value than something made at TDF.
>

They won't happen by magic. We are offering TDF partnership with UK national
accreditation with government regulatory control, referenced to the European
Qualifications Framework. (We have two transfer of innovation grants from
the EU Lifelong Learning Programme totalling 600,000 Euros and we can apply
for more) Market channels are already developed into several countries.
(Malaysia, Czech Republic, Bulgaria, Romania, Spain, Germany, Kenya, South
Africa with others imminent) Yes we can just do it anyway - (I decided to do
this in the earlier days of OOo when there was moaning about having no money
for marketing. Then I suggested a business strategy to solve that but I was
unable to get anyone to understand it, not even in Sun.) This development
requires specialist expertise and I have 30 years professional experience at
senior levels in UK education nationally and not insignificant
internationally.  It's not easy though. If it was someone would have done it
already.

Since there has been a major change with LibO and OOo I'm trying again. I
can just provide certificates with an OOo logo on them for all certification
based on the OOo code base and take all the money (actually its cost me and
some other investors a lot of money to get this far so it will take a bit
more time to get significant surplus beyond operating costs. Building a
global business is not easy or free as in free beer) or we can make a
payment to the project related to the particular context in which the
certification was achieved. TDF doesn't have to do anything apart from lend
its support.

Our quality assurance is regulated by the UK government, we have the
infrastructure built on LAMP and Drupal with a policy of continual
improvement, all our content is CC licensed. Our pedagogical approach is
much less expensive, more up to date and compatible with current EU
vocational educational thinking and can reach people that things like
ECDL/ICDL can't. We are not competing with those directly, we are creating
new markets in line with the principles of disruptive innovation. In the
long term we plan to produce a vast range of CC licensed educational
resources that will support education in the developing world as internet
access gets more and more affordable. Our certification does not just cover
Office applications, there are units for collaborative technologies, mobile
technologies, specialist applications etc. We are currently developing
English for non-native speakers and management qualifications.

For the certificates targeting VAS providers, I am not sure who will
> take the responsibility of establishing