Re: [tdf-discuss] TDF Certification

[Andy Hearn]

On 24/06/2011, Marc Paré  wrote:
> Le 2011-06-24 14:34, Manfred A. Reiter a écrit :
>> Hi Uwe,
>>
>> Ich bin z.Zt. in Urlaub, melde mich danach. ;-) ... Sollten uns dann
>> persönlich sehen.
>>
>> LG
>>
>> ## Manfred - (android) mobil - please excuse typos
>> Am 24.06.2011 15:40 schrieb "Uwe Altmann":
>>
> Translated: Manfred is letting us know that he is on vacation. :-)
>
> Hi Manfred:  Hope you have a relaxing time and we look forward to
> hearing from you soon. :-)
>
> Cheers
>
> Marc
>
> --
> Marc Paré
> http://www.parEntreprise.com
>
>
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[tdf-discuss] Font Embedding in ODF (was RE: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard Enters 60-Day Public Review)

[Dennis E. Hamilton]

I'm having trouble with this entire thread.

Here's what I know:

 1. Font Embedding is *not* supported in ODF 1.2 (although there is probably 
room for implementers to provide it using a convention that does not break 
compatibility -- that is, implementations that are not implemented to be aware 
of the convention will safely ignore it).  I don't know that anyone is 
addressing this in an implementation though.

 2. Font substitutions, something you get to specify in your copy of 
LibreOffice, can be used to map, especially when there are issues that prevent 
the font from being embedded but for which there are successful substitutes.  I 
notice a couple of Linux-provided Unicode fonts in current distributions that 
can be used that way. This won't help for specific decorative fonts and their 
metrics, however.

 3. There are other ways to make fonts available in the meantime, although not 
so straightforward as embedded fonts, they also don't make the document bigger.

 4. It is incorrect to presume that Font Embedding will not be in ODF 1.3 or 
any other.  While font embedding did not make the feature cut in the 
prioritization for ODF 1.2, that does not mean it can't be resurrected.  It is 
early days for ODF 1.3, which is scheduled to take a two-year development 
process.
What is *missing* is a serious proposal that deals with the complexities, 
borrows from some already-worked-out approach in other software, and is brought 
forth at the ODF TC in an unencumbered form.  Someone has to do the heavy 
lifting.  
You can also respond to the public review, although something concrete that 
can be used in a constructive manner would be particularly welcome.  The ODF TC 
*has* to address every Public Review comment, although that doesn't mean we 
will do anything about it.  Good catches will probably be saved up for an 
Errata or lead to action in ODF 1.3.
 
 5. For a snapshot of what the ODF TC is doing now, it is useful to look at the 
ODF TC list archive (linked from the home page,< 
http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=office>).  
Anyone can examine the JIRA issues being worked on (and subscribe to 
JIRA-issue notices on Twitter [;<).  
You'll from the minutes and the separate Advanced Collaboration 
Subcommittee list that change-tracking is the most difficult topic at the 
moment.  
Meanwhile, a number of small defects are starting to surface for 
consideration in an ODF 1.2 Errata (probably a year from now) or in ODF 1.3 
(with Committee Drafts coming out roughly every six months).  The first cut for 
content in the first ODF 1.3 Committee Draft is coming up in July.

 - Dennis

-Original Message-
From: Marc Paré [mailto:m...@marcpare.com] 
Sent: Friday, June 24, 2011 14:11
To: discuss@documentfoundation.org
Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard Enters 
60-Day Public Review, prerequisite for balloting as OASIS Standard

Le 2011-06-24 13:13, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit :
> Hello,
>
> Le Fri, 24 Jun 2011 07:48:54 -0700 (PDT),
> plino  a écrit :
>
>> I really hope that revision 1.2 allows for font embedding in ODF
>> documents.
>>
>> IMO that is a (the?) major obstacle for sharing documents with other
>> users.
>
> So, let me state and restate this : ODF will not embed fonts in the
> 1.2, 1.3, nor in the future, because the format is not meant to focus on
> faithful layout rendering. Instead, PDF is meant that. ODF focuses on
> office document exchanges.
>
> Best,
>
> Charles.
>

Hi Charles

I wonder about this last statement, does this mean that if I download a 
copy of our documentation in .odt format, that if my font is missing 
from my machine that I will not be able to print a high quality version 
of that documentation. And worse, if I download a copy of a writer, 
impress file or draw and wish to print it off in its native file, that I 
would then have to hunt around and make sure that all of the necessary 
fonts used in a particular document would have to be installed on my 
machine so that I could get a high quality print from it?

[ ... ]


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard Enters 60-Day Public Review, prerequisite for balloting as OASIS Standard

[Marc Paré]

Le 2011-06-24 18:01, Nuno J. Silva a écrit :

On 2011-06-24, Marc Paré wrote:


Le 2011-06-24 13:13, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit :

Hello,

Le Fri, 24 Jun 2011 07:48:54 -0700 (PDT),
plino   a écrit :


I really hope that revision 1.2 allows for font embedding in ODF
documents.

IMO that is a (the?) major obstacle for sharing documents with other
users.

So, let me state and restate this : ODF will not embed fonts in the
1.2, 1.3, nor in the future, because the format is not meant to focus on
faithful layout rendering. Instead, PDF is meant that. ODF focuses on
office document exchanges.


I wonder about this last statement, does this mean that if I download
a copy of our documentation in .odt format, that if my font is missing
from my machine that I will not be able to print a high quality
version of that documentation.

You will be able to print an high-quality version. It will just use
another font.

I mean, you lose quality in the meaning the font used is not the
intended, but you don't lose quality as in definition or content.


Yes, I understand, however, the look in print will not be exactly what 
the author had first set it to be.



And worse, if I download a copy of a
writer, impress file or draw and wish to print it off in its native
file, that I would then have to hunt around and make sure that all of
the necessary fonts used in a particular document would have to be
installed on my machine so that I could get a high quality print from
it?

To be sure documents print the same way in different computers, you
should use Adobe PostScript or Adobe Portable Document Format.


I don't mean font embedding is not needed, but just that you're looking
into a part of the problem that already has a solution, as far as you
don't need the document to be editable.


Yes, we are discussing this in another thread at the moment. It would be 
nice if this were possible in our native ODF.


Cheers

marc

--
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http://www.parEntreprise.com


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Re: [tdf-discuss] New "LibreOffice Reader" Eliminates Need for "PDF Reader"

[Nuno J. Silva]

On 2011-06-24, Robert Derman wrote:

> Varun Mittal wrote:
>> I personally feel we have more important set of priorities than diversifying
>> right now into PDF reader. Also no point inventing the wheel again when
>> there are several open source pdf readers available which we can integrate
>> instead of developing one of our own.
>   
> I am wondering do any of the open source pdf readers mentioned above
> work with Windows or are they all Linux, I mostly use Windows.  What I
> meant by HUGE when I referred to Adobe Reader was the more than 6 Gigs
> of hard drive space it takes up!  By contrast all of the LibreOffice
> suite of programs takes up 475 Megs of space.  That means that a mere
> reader takes up more than a dozen times the space of an entire office
> suite.  If that isn't mega-bloat I don't know what is.   It has been a
> long time, but I seem to remember Adobe Reader only taking 12 Megs of
> space at one time.  It used to come included on almost all driver
> disks, now it is just too big for that. 

Adobe Reader is the only bloated PDF reader I've seen so far, when it
comes to runtime. Heavy, slow to launch.


I know Evince runs in Windows, just see its download page

  http://live.gnome.org/Evince/Downloads

Or a direct link to the current version:

  
http://ftp.gnome.org/pub/GNOME/binaries/win32/evince/2.32/evince-2.32.0-144.1.msi


Evince 2.30.3 in a Windows VM I have around takes 70.3 MiB of disk
space. Now I guess part of that are the dependencies, libraries that are
frequently around in GNU/Linux but must be supplied in windows.

OTOH it's way lighter than Adobe Reader, and it supports more than just
PDF (it also supports PostScript, DeJaVU and LaTeX DeVice Independent;
it's able to handle comics packed in some compression formats ("cbr",
"cbz" and others)).


Coming back on-topic, there was once some talk about adding [to Evince]
support for viewing editable documents. The following reply by a member
of the Evince team, who says why he thinks it shouldn't be done, sounds
interesting in the context of this thread (the one I'm replying to):

  http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2005-April/msg00159.html

There are also some comments on their wiki webpage (see the last
section, /Possible or Planned to Support/):

  http://live.gnome.org/Evince/SupportedDocumentFormats


>> My 2 cents !

My 2 cents, too. So total = 4 ;-)

-- 
Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg)
gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard Enters 60-Day Public Review, prerequisite for balloting as OASIS Standard

[Nuno J. Silva]

On 2011-06-24, Marc Paré wrote:

> Le 2011-06-24 13:13, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit :
>> Hello,
>>
>> Le Fri, 24 Jun 2011 07:48:54 -0700 (PDT),
>> plino  a écrit :
>>
>>> I really hope that revision 1.2 allows for font embedding in ODF
>>> documents.
>>>
>>> IMO that is a (the?) major obstacle for sharing documents with other
>>> users.
>>
>> So, let me state and restate this : ODF will not embed fonts in the
>> 1.2, 1.3, nor in the future, because the format is not meant to focus on
>> faithful layout rendering. Instead, PDF is meant that. ODF focuses on
>> office document exchanges.
>>
> I wonder about this last statement, does this mean that if I download
> a copy of our documentation in .odt format, that if my font is missing
> from my machine that I will not be able to print a high quality
> version of that documentation.

You will be able to print an high-quality version. It will just use
another font. 

I mean, you lose quality in the meaning the font used is not the
intended, but you don't lose quality as in definition or content.

> And worse, if I download a copy of a
> writer, impress file or draw and wish to print it off in its native
> file, that I would then have to hunt around and make sure that all of
> the necessary fonts used in a particular document would have to be
> installed on my machine so that I could get a high quality print from
> it?

To be sure documents print the same way in different computers, you
should use Adobe PostScript or Adobe Portable Document Format.


I don't mean font embedding is not needed, but just that you're looking
into a part of the problem that already has a solution, as far as you
don't need the document to be editable.

-- 
Nuno J. Silva (aka njsg)
gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg

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Re: [tdf-discuss] New "LibreOffice Reader" Eliminates Need for "PDF Reader"

[Marc Paré]

Le 2011-06-24 17:08, toki a écrit :

it is hard for developers out there to make just a viewer when some other folks 
have that :( already.
This is the type of project that might be more suitable for the Apache
Software Foundation.


My $0.04 (previous $0.02 + this $0.02) don't add sales tax please :)

A user fee of one cent will be added.  This user fee is separate from,
and in addition to any sales tax that might be assessed.

jonathon

Now, now.

What's good for the ASF is also good for us. :-)

Cheers

Marc

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Re: [tdf-discuss] TDF Certification

[Marc Paré]

Le 2011-06-24 14:34, Manfred A. Reiter a écrit :

Hi Uwe,

Ich bin z.Zt. in Urlaub, melde mich danach. ;-) ... Sollten uns dann
persönlich sehen.

LG

## Manfred - (android) mobil - please excuse typos
Am 24.06.2011 15:40 schrieb "Uwe Altmann":


Translated: Manfred is letting us know that he is on vacation. :-)

Hi Manfred:  Hope you have a relaxing time and we look forward to 
hearing from you soon. :-)


Cheers

Marc

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard Enters 60-Day Public Review, prerequisite for balloting as OASIS Standard

[Marc Paré]

Le 2011-06-24 13:13, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit :

Hello,

Le Fri, 24 Jun 2011 07:48:54 -0700 (PDT),
plino  a écrit :


I really hope that revision 1.2 allows for font embedding in ODF
documents.

IMO that is a (the?) major obstacle for sharing documents with other
users.


So, let me state and restate this : ODF will not embed fonts in the
1.2, 1.3, nor in the future, because the format is not meant to focus on
faithful layout rendering. Instead, PDF is meant that. ODF focuses on
office document exchanges.

Best,

Charles.



Hi Charles

I wonder about this last statement, does this mean that if I download a 
copy of our documentation in .odt format, that if my font is missing 
from my machine that I will not be able to print a high quality version 
of that documentation. And worse, if I download a copy of a writer, 
impress file or draw and wish to print it off in its native file, that I 
would then have to hunt around and make sure that all of the necessary 
fonts used in a particular document would have to be installed on my 
machine so that I could get a high quality print from it?


Just wondering.

Cheers

Marc


--
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http://www.parEntreprise.com


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Re: [tdf-discuss] New "LibreOffice Reader" Eliminates Need for "PDF Reader"

[toki]

On 24/06/2011 00:30, Antonio Olivares wrote:

> I like the idea, don't get me wrong. 

+1

>it is hard for developers out there to make just a viewer when some other 
>folks have that :( already. 

This is the type of project that might be more suitable for the Apache
Software Foundation.

> My $0.04 (previous $0.02 + this $0.02) don't add sales tax please :)

A user fee of one cent will be added.  This user fee is separate from,
and in addition to any sales tax that might be assessed.

jonathon
-- 
If Bing copied Google, there wouldn't be anything new worth requesting.

If Bing did not copy Google, there wouldn't be anything relevant worth
requesting.

  DaveJakeman 20110207 Groklaw.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] New "LibreOffice Reader" Eliminates Need for "PDF Reader"

[Marc Paré]

Le 2011-06-24 14:34, Robert Derman a écrit :


On 24/06/2011 03:59, Marc Paré wrote: The initial use of the 
"LibreOffice Reader" would be just a plain reader, the challenge 
after this would be to try to build as much document fidelity into it 
as possible. Again, with the hopes to rival .pdf fidelity. Maybe once 
all the devs put their heads together, they may come up with some way 
to do this. Let's not forget that the Djvu people accomplished this 
to some extent. If we were to work at it we could surprise everyone. 
There is always the possibility of submitting any changes to the ODF, 
that could enhance the formats, through the possible channels at the 
ISO and OASIS of which we are members. 


As Andrea states, the point about PDF is that it 'locks in' the 
format of a document, allowing it to be displayed or printed 
everywhere as the user intended. All other formats created by word 
processors, including MS Office and LibO, will display and print 
differently on different computers, depending for example on the 
specific printer a user has installed. I doubt that this is something 
that could readily be fixed by tweaking ODF, it's fundamental to the 
way all word processors work. I also believe that any diversion of 
scarce DEV effort would inevitably move the focus further away from 
fixing the many bugs still in LibO, which would be counter-productive.

-1
Right now LibreOffice is capable of creating PDF files.  Which leads 
me to believe that creating a reader for ODF and at some point giving 
ODF some of the capabilities of PDF couldn't be all that difficult.
Charles H. Schultz has informed us that the OASIS group has no intention 
of embedding fonts for v.1.2, 1.3 or any future versions, so getting the 
same type of fidelity from a LibreOffice Reader will not be possible. In 
this case, if one were to wish to print from the LibO Reader, if the 
font used in the document is absent from the system, then the system 
would look for the closest approximate font to the original font.


So, getting the same quality of print from a LibreOffice Reader would 
not be possible without having the font embedded in the file. I still 
think that a LibreOffice Reader would be useful for those who do not 
have the LibreOffice suite installed on their machine. This would give 
the user the choice of using the reader to view the file without the 
need of the full-blown suite and without having the need to use the 
Acrobat Reader. Again, our user base and the fact that our reader would 
be created in-house would be enough to give the LibreOffice Reader 
enough impetuous for adoption by our users and non-users of the suite.


I think supplying a LibreOffice Reader is just as important as providing 
the plugins needed for viewing files in a browser (LibreOffice 
Tools->Internet->Browser plug-in). Providing tools to popularize our 
distro is important.


Cheers

Marc

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard Enters 60-Day Public Review, prerequisite for balloting as OASIS Standard

[Marc Paré]

Le 2011-06-24 13:13, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit :

Hello,

Le Fri, 24 Jun 2011 07:48:54 -0700 (PDT),
plino  a écrit :


I really hope that revision 1.2 allows for font embedding in ODF
documents.

IMO that is a (the?) major obstacle for sharing documents with other
users.


So, let me state and restate this : ODF will not embed fonts in the
1.2, 1.3, nor in the future, because the format is not meant to focus on
faithful layout rendering. Instead, PDF is meant that. ODF focuses on
office document exchanges.

Best,

Charles.


Thanks for the information. It sounds like this has already been taken 
up with OASIS and it has arrived at a consensus to not embed fonts in 
any version.


Cheers,

Marc


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard Enters 60-Day Public Review, prerequisite for balloting as OASIS Standard

[Goran Rakic]

У пет, 24. 06 2011. у 14:03 -0500, Robert Derman пише:
>
> As long as ODF has this inherent limitation it WILL NEVER SUCCEED as a 
> universal document exchange format!!!


Different formats exists with different goals. But there is this great
thing called hybrid PDF document - it is a PDF with ODF embedded.

You can view it in any PDF reader pixel-perfect, or open it as editable
to create new works.

It is not just about fonts, you have page page size and margins, page
breaks, dynamic text, binary objects... If I am not mistaken, ODF does
not specify how the output should exactly "look", but more how it should
"feel". You can have a compliant ODF viewer targeting small screens,
just like with HTML.


Kind regards,
Goran Rakic


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard Enters 60-Day Public Review, prerequisite for balloting as OASIS Standard

[Robert Derman]

plino wrote:

Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
  

So, let me state and restate this : ODF will not embed fonts in the
1.2, 1.3, nor in the future, because the format is not meant to focus on
faithful layout rendering. Instead, PDF is meant that. ODF focuses on
office document exchanges.

As long as ODF has this inherent limitation it WILL NEVER SUCCEED as a 
universal document exchange format!!!



For any document format to truly succeed, it must be UNIVERSAL.  That 
means that it must be able to do what ODF does AND what PDF does.  This 
is one area where specialization is not what is called for.  So far, we 
have been using specialized software, text editors for some purposes, 
word processors for another set, and desktop publishers for still 
another.  The future does not belong to such specialized programs, these 
represent the past!  In the future the only writing programs that will 
succeed are those that can do ANYTHING as far as writing is concerned.  
And the only document formats that will succeed long term are those that 
can also do anything. 

If that is the OASIS opinion then TDF should bail out from the ODF file
format ASAP.

That decision makes ODF useless for presentation files created in Impress
and for vectorial art created in Draw. 


Even some text documents and spreadsheets rely on the fonts used...

PDF is a non-editable format. There is no similarity in function with ODF.




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Re: [tdf-discuss] When can we have a API to send Emails ?

[Robert Derman]

Fernand Vanrie wrote:

Cor ,

I know all this tricks, but its still sending as attachments , i want 
a simple way to send a email with a message in the body


Thanks

Fernand
I would like this also, the auto corrector of LO makes it much faster to 
write emails than T-Bird or any other email client, so being able to 
grab and email and write a reply in LO, or compose an email in LO and 
then send it directly from LO would be greatly appreciated.


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Re: [tdf-discuss] New "LibreOffice Reader" Eliminates Need for "PDF Reader"

[Robert Derman]

On 24/06/2011 03:59, Marc Paré wrote: The initial use of the 
"LibreOffice Reader" would be just a plain reader, the challenge after 
this would be to try to build as much document fidelity into it as 
possible. Again, with the hopes to rival .pdf fidelity. Maybe once all 
the devs put their heads together, they may come up with some way to 
do this. Let's not forget that the Djvu people accomplished this to 
some extent. If we were to work at it we could surprise everyone. 
There is always the possibility of submitting any changes to the ODF, 
that could enhance the formats, through the possible channels at the 
ISO and OASIS of which we are members. 


As Andrea states, the point about PDF is that it 'locks in' the format 
of a document, allowing it to be displayed or printed everywhere as 
the user intended. All other formats created by word processors, 
including MS Office and LibO, will display and print differently on 
different computers, depending for example on the specific printer a 
user has installed. I doubt that this is something that could readily 
be fixed by tweaking ODF, it's fundamental to the way all word 
processors work. I also believe that any diversion of scarce DEV 
effort would inevitably move the focus further away from fixing the 
many bugs still in LibO, which would be counter-productive.

-1
Right now LibreOffice is capable of creating PDF files.  Which leads me 
to believe that creating a reader for ODF and at some point giving ODF 
some of the capabilities of PDF couldn't be all that difficult. 


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Re: [tdf-discuss] TDF Certification

[Manfred A. Reiter]

Hi Uwe,

Ich bin z.Zt. in Urlaub, melde mich danach. ;-) ... Sollten uns dann
persönlich sehen.

LG

## Manfred - (android) mobil - please excuse typos
Am 24.06.2011 15:40 schrieb "Uwe Altmann" :
> Hi Ian
>
> Am 22.06.11 17:01, schrieb Ian Lynch:
>>> On 6/22/11 1:40 PM, Ian Lynch wrote:
>
>> ...The OpenOffice project application was submitted through OpenSaar in
>> Germany. I wrote it but we thought it better to go through a different
>> partner.
>
> Could you provide some more Information on this for me - that sounds
> quite interesting.
> I'm living in Saarbrücken and have been for years active member of the
> gemanophone OOo-Project but don't know anything about this.
> --
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen
> Uwe Altmann
>
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard Enters 60-Day Public Review, prerequisite for balloting as OASIS Standard

[Italo Vignoli]

On 6/24/11 5:11 PM, Marc Paré wrote:


I think some of our TDF/SC members will be able to answer questions re:
this as they are on the OASIS board. I thought Italo was that person.


No, is Charles. I am not involved in OASIS.

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VoIP +39.02.320621813
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Re: [tdf-discuss] [Hackfest] Ohio Linux Fest

[Carl Symons]

On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 7:13 AM, drew  wrote:
> On Thu, 2011-06-23 at 15:36 -0400, drew wrote:
>> Just a quick note.
>>
>> Have sent off the formal request to the OHLF organizers..will keep folks
>> posted as specifics firm up.
>>
>
> Hi,
>
> Quick note.
>
> Exchanged a few emails with one of the other organizers of the show.
>
> No final yes - but looks good.
>
> One slight change is looking likely - moving this from Friday the 9th to
> Saturday the 10th.
>
> I think that would be a plus.
>
> //drew
>

I agree that the 10th would be better. I am not familiar with OHLF
attendance, but Saturday at LFNW is by far the big day. There have
been some Friday events, but they are not so well attended.

Carl

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[tdf-discuss] Re: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard Enters 60-Day Public Review, prerequisite for balloting as OASIS Standard

[plino]

Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
> 
> We're not talking about the same use cases. Embedding fonts create a
> whole lot of different problems in terms of interoperability.
> 
> But you're welcome to join the ODF TC, even as an individual.
> 

I believe that there are many interoperability problems. 

But if ODF is not going to support font embedding in the near future then it
is no alternative to the MS file formats for files where fonts are important
such as presentations and vector art.

Given this position from OASIS, LO developers should concentrate ASAP on
adding the ability to embed fonts in MS formats (preferably the newer XML
based formats) which already have this function.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard Enters 60-Day Public Review, prerequisite for balloting as OASIS Standard

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Le Fri, 24 Jun 2011 08:21:40 -0700 (PDT),
plino  a écrit :

> 
> Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
> > 
> > So, let me state and restate this : ODF will not embed fonts in the
> > 1.2, 1.3, nor in the future, because the format is not meant to
> > focus on faithful layout rendering. Instead, PDF is meant that. ODF
> > focuses on office document exchanges.
> > 
> 
> If that is the OASIS opinion then TDF should bail out from the ODF
> file format ASAP.
> 
> That decision makes ODF useless for presentation files created in
> Impress and for vectorial art created in Draw. 
> 
> Even some text documents and spreadsheets rely on the fonts used...
> 
> PDF is a non-editable format. There is no similarity in function with
> ODF.

We're not talking about the same use cases. Embedding fonts create a
whole lot of different problems in terms of interoperability.

But you're welcome to join the ODF TC, even as an individual.

best,


-- 
Charles-H. Schulz
Membre du Comité exécutif
The Document Foundation.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard Enters 60-Day Public Review, prerequisite for balloting as OASIS Standard

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Le Fri, 24 Jun 2011 11:11:41 -0400,
Marc Paré  a écrit :

> Le 2011-06-24 10:48, plino a écrit :
> > I really hope that revision 1.2 allows for font embedding in ODF
> > documents.
> >
> > IMO that is a (the?) major obstacle for sharing documents with
> > other users.
> >
> > --
> > View this message in context:
> > http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/ANN-ODF-1-2-Candidate-OASIS-Standard-Enters-60-Day-Public-Review-prerequisite-for-balloting-as-OASISd-tp3102710p3104511.html
> > Sent from the Discuss mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >
> I think some of our TDF/SC members will be able to answer questions
> re: this as they are on the OASIS board. I thought Italo was that
> person.

I am :-) (Thorsten is a member of the ODF TC)

best,
Charles. 

> 
> Cheers
> 
> Marc
> 



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Re: [tdf-discuss] When can we have a API to send Emails ?

[Fernand Vanrie]

OK,

in the mean time i found some basic stuff who can do the job.
It looks ugly: but it works and the content is "formated as in the 
Writerdoc"


Copy the Body content from a opened Writerdoc, then use this content 
from the clpiboard to send the Email



Sub Main

oMailProvider = CreateUNOService("com.sun.star.mail.MailServiceProvider")
oCont = CreateUNOListener("CurCont_","com.sun.star.uno.XCurrentContext")
oAuth = CreateUNOListener("Authent_","com.sun.star.mail.XAuthenticator")

copydoccontentToClipboard

oClip = 
CreateUnoService("com.sun.star.datatransfer.clipboard.SystemClipboard")


oMailServiceObj = com.sun.star.mail.MailMessage
rem 
http://api.openoffice.org/docs/common/ref/com/sun/star/mail/MailMessage.html

rem Use the contents of the clipboard as the content of the email
oMail = oMailServiceObj.create( "s...@pmg.be", "s...@pmg.be", 
"SUBJECT",oClip.getContents())


xMailServer = oMailProvider.Create("com.sun.star.mail.SMTP")

xMailServer.Connect(oCont,oAuth)
msgbox xMailServer.isConnected

xMailServer.SendMailMessage(oMail)
xMailServer.Disconnect()

End Sub

Function CurCont_GetValueByName(s) as Any
Select Case s
Case "ServerName"
CurCont_GetValueByName = "mail.pmgroup.be"
Case "Port"
CurCont_GetValueByName = 25
Case "ConnectionType"
CurCont_GetValueByName = "Insecure"
End Select
End Function

Function Authent_GetUserName() as Any
Authent_GetUserName = "s...@pmgroup.be"
End Function

Function Authent_GetPassword()
Authent_GetPassword = "mypassword"
End Function

sub copydoccontentToClipboard
dim document   as object
dim dispatcher as object
dim oDoc, oVC
oVC = ThisComponent.CurrentController.getViewCursor
oVC.gotostart(false)
oVC.gotoEND(true)
dispatcher = createUnoService("com.sun.star.frame.DispatchHelper")
dispatcher.executeDispatch(ThisComponent.CurrentController.Frame, 
".uno:Copy", "", 0, Array())

end sub


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[tdf-discuss] Re: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard Enters 60-Day Public Review, prerequisite for balloting as OASIS Standard

[plino]

Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
> 
> So, let me state and restate this : ODF will not embed fonts in the
> 1.2, 1.3, nor in the future, because the format is not meant to focus on
> faithful layout rendering. Instead, PDF is meant that. ODF focuses on
> office document exchanges.
> 

If that is the OASIS opinion then TDF should bail out from the ODF file
format ASAP.

That decision makes ODF useless for presentation files created in Impress
and for vectorial art created in Draw. 

Even some text documents and spreadsheets rely on the fonts used...

PDF is a non-editable format. There is no similarity in function with ODF.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard Enters 60-Day Public Review, prerequisite for balloting as OASIS Standard

[Marc Paré]

Le 2011-06-24 10:48, plino a écrit :

I really hope that revision 1.2 allows for font embedding in ODF documents.

IMO that is a (the?) major obstacle for sharing documents with other users.

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Sent from the Discuss mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

I think some of our TDF/SC members will be able to answer questions re: 
this as they are on the OASIS board. I thought Italo was that person.


Cheers

Marc

--
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http://www.parEntreprise.com


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard Enters 60-Day Public Review, prerequisite for balloting as OASIS Standard

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Hello,

Le Fri, 24 Jun 2011 07:48:54 -0700 (PDT),
plino  a écrit :

> I really hope that revision 1.2 allows for font embedding in ODF
> documents.
> 
> IMO that is a (the?) major obstacle for sharing documents with other
> users.


So, let me state and restate this : ODF will not embed fonts in the
1.2, 1.3, nor in the future, because the format is not meant to focus on
faithful layout rendering. Instead, PDF is meant that. ODF focuses on
office document exchanges.

Best,

Charles.


> 
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/ANN-ODF-1-2-Candidate-OASIS-Standard-Enters-60-Day-Public-Review-prerequisite-for-balloting-as-OASISd-tp3102710p3104511.html
> Sent from the Discuss mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> 



-- 
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[tdf-discuss] Re: ANN: ODF 1.2 Candidate OASIS Standard Enters 60-Day Public Review, prerequisite for balloting as OASIS Standard

[plino]

I really hope that revision 1.2 allows for font embedding in ODF documents.

IMO that is a (the?) major obstacle for sharing documents with other users.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] TDF Certification

[Ian Lynch]

On 24 June 2011 14:39, Uwe Altmann  wrote:

> Hi Ian
>
> Am 22.06.11 17:01, schrieb Ian Lynch:
> >> On 6/22/11 1:40 PM, Ian Lynch wrote:
>
> > ...The OpenOffice project application was submitted through OpenSaar in
> > Germany. I wrote it but we thought it better to go through a different
> > partner.
>
> Could you provide some more Information on this for me - that sounds
> quite interesting.
> I'm living in Saarbrücken and have been for years active member of the
> gemanophone OOo-Project but don't know anything about this.
>

Best to talk to Manfred Reiter and/or Bernhard  Mommenthal. I copied them
into the reply so you can get their contact e-mails from there.

I made an application last year through the UK NA but we had a project
already running and another was approved. I suspect they didn't like us to
have too many. So we reapplied with Germany as the lead. We could, in fact,
apply for several of these with different countries leading and different
sets of partners. It just needs some strategic organisation. The EQF
(European Qualifications Framework) and ECVET (New assessment methods for
vocational training) are high priorities for funding which is another reason
why LibO/OOo and any other FOSS project should consider developing
certification projects. There are some changes that should make it less
bureaucratic in future years. These grants are available year after year and
could bring millions of Euros into FOSS communities. However, the
application form is not for the faint hearted :-)

-- 
Ian

Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ)

www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940

The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth,
Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and
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Re: [steering-discuss] Fw: [libreoffice-users] Steam Distribution Inquiry

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)

Their first mail suggested they are developing an "app store" presumably 
expanding from 'just' games.
Regards from
Tom :)





From: Charles-H. Schulz 
To: steering-disc...@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Fri, 24 June, 2011 16:20:18
Subject: Re: [steering-discuss] Fw: [libreoffice-users] Steam Distribution 
Inquiry

Wait, I said I'm contacting this person :-)

Best,
Charles. 

Le Fri, 24 Jun 2011 15:12:05 +0200,
Jonathan Aquilina  a écrit :

> I find this very interesting indeed as steam is a game distribution 
> company. Do you know if they are interested in using it internally?
> or they plan on providing it to end users in the form of a mirror?
> 
> On 6/24/11 5:04 PM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
> > Thanks Tom. We're going to contact him.
> >
> > best,
> > Charles.
> >
> >
> > Le Fri, 24 Jun 2011 12:46:00 +0100 (BST),
> > Tom Davies  a écrit :
> >
> >> Hi :)
> >> The users list got an unusual email from a fairly vast organisation
> >> that is primarily a vast distribution network.
> >>
> >>
> >> A couple of people pointed them towards the marketing list but i
> >> think there are other issues that might require a dialogue with the
> >> Steering Committee and/or BoD and/or the Advisory Board.
> >>
> >>
> >> I have included my verbose response to their initial enquiry but
> >> please skip that and focus on their request at the bottom of this
> >> email.  Two other people responded before me with RTFM type answers
> >> pointing them towards Marketing.  I think we need to be more
> >> prepared next time but it's not really something that is easy to
> >> prepare for as it is unlikely to happen again.
> >>
> >> Regards from
> >> Tom :)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> - Forwarded Message 
> >> From: Tom Davies
> >> To: us...@global.libreoffice.org
> >> Cc: ma...@valvesoftware.com
> >> Sent: Fri, 24 June, 2011 10:51:58
> >> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Steam Distribution Inquiry
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi :)
> >>
> >> I think the main people you need to contact are the Steering
> >> Committee steering-discuss+subscr...@documentfoundation.org
> >> General discussions about other aspects of TDF are on a separate
> >> list discuss+subscr...@documentfoundation.org
> >> but the steering discuss is the more useful list for your needs i
> >> think.
> >>
> >> LibreOffice is released under copyleft agreements so you don't
> >> really need to even ask permission to copy and distribute.  There
> >> are a few caveats of course. The original source code must be made
> >> available to anyone that wants it.
> >>
> >>
> >> If you want to mirror the TDF download sites then this list might
> >> be helpful for a quick result
> >> mirrors+subscr...@documentfoundation.org
> >>
> >>
> >> Further Detail
> >> If you make a profit then it would be best to give a percentage or
> >> just an amount of that back to TDF.  Steam personel can modify the
> >> code but licensing and maintaining the result is tricky unless you
> >> choose the same copyleft agreement as the original.  Many
> >> organisations put resources (time, personnel, whatever) into TDF to
> >> develop code, documentation, translations and so on to get some
> >> control over which issues are addressed in those areas.  This will
> >> happen more although the individual volunteers base also grows
> >> rapidly and everyone is treated equally within TDF as it is a
> >> meritocracy.  Some organisations such as Google, RedHat, Novell and
> >> so on have put people on an advisory board that advises the
> >> Steering Committee and the Board of Directors.  Steam could become
> >> a full member at that level but it costs a bit and i am not sure
> >> about the details.  Again  that is an issue for the Steering
> >> Committee steering-discuss+subscr...@documentfoundation.org
> >>
> >>
> >> Side Issues
> >> If you want to create Dvds to distribute then there are various
> >> 'localised' versions available.  I think the North American,
> >> German, Spanish, possibly Brazilian 'localised' versions are
> >> already available but you could have people join in to help
> >> develop those or others.  The marketting list is useful for that
> >> and things such as the international magazine (developed
> >> originally by the Brazilian Team)
> >> marketing+subscr...@global.libreoffice.org As other people have
> >> already stated that might be a good place to deal with most of the
> >> issues you asked about.  Personally i think Steam are large enough
> >> to have issues that the Steering Committee might  be more helpful
> >> with steering-discuss+subscr...@documentfoundation.org
> >>
> >> Perhaps join the websites list to find out about whether TDF have
> >> torrenting set-up.
> >>
> >> website+subscr...@global.libreoffice.org
> >>
> >> If you would like to develop a UI, perhaps as an "add-on" (we call
> >> them "Extensions") then the Design Team might be interested and
> >> might be keen to help with the work
> >> design+subscr...@global.libreoffice.org
> >>
> >>
> >

[tdf-discuss] Steam Distribution Inquiry

[Mark Richardson]

>   Hello,
>
>   We would like to discuss distributing LibreOffice through our worldwide 
> digital platform, Steam.  We are a leader in video game distribution and 
> service.  We are launching an application store in October and would like to 
> include LibreOffice.  You can find us at Steampowered.com.
>
>   We are a worldwide distributor with 30 million customers, in 22 languages, 
> 21 localized payment forms and 3 currencies.
>
>   Let me know when you might have a chance to discuss.
>
>   Sincerely,
>   Mark Richardson
>   ma...@valvesoftware.com
>   425-952-2785
>
>


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Re: [tdf-discuss] TDF Certification

[Ian Lynch]

On 23 June 2011 12:09, Goran Rakic  wrote:

> У чет, 23. 06 2011. у 10:41 +0100, Ian Lynch пише:
> > All it needs to do is have a set of criteria or even a simple
> > contractual statement that the partner company providing services on
> > behalf of the community will uphold community principles and not bring
> > it into disrepute.
>
> Why the such contract is required? If trademark policy allows you to do
> the certification business, what is the point of the having a contract?
>

Because

1. It provides a formal relationship so that the partner company contributes
back to the project
2.  In the government and corporate worlds they don't understand the
informality of FOSS communities and might not commit without it.
3. Without it you run the risk of companies using the Trade Mark and
associating it with things the community would not want to be associated
with and no means of practical redress.

Of course you don't have to have a contract, we didn't plan on having one it
simply has advantages to both parties. Usually contracts do.

Are you suggesting there should be some exclusivity where only those who
> are signing a contract with TDF can do the certification? I see this as
> a real danger for the community.
>

No, it's just the same as here in the UK with the qualifications regulators.
If we meet the regulatory criteria then people have confidence in us if we
don't they won't. Any company willing to meet the criteria can be
accredited, it's not a matter of exclusion its about inclusion of those that
meet the criteria. Here are three simple examples of criteria a FOSS
community might want to apply.

1. The partner will give at least equal weight to supporting the
certification related to  free and open source products as they do to any
proprietary products.

2. The partner will make a reasonable contribution to the community
development effort in keeping with the benefit gained from association with
the community.

3. The partner will have sufficient quality assurance procedures and systems
in place so as to uphold the integrity of the community.

Of course you might disagree or want other criteria, these are just examples
to illustrate that the community can use these things to help further its
aims.


> Your contribution in terms of learning materials and LibreOffice
> promotion is valuable as such, I do not see why would you need further
> endorsements.
>

Because the corporate world and some governments will expect it. This is as
much if not more for community benefit than it is for us. We don't have a
shortage of potential lines of business development. In fact the reverse is
true, we have too many possibilities and insufficient resources to commit to
all of them. We currently operate without any community endorsement and we
have only come back to the possibility because of the changes with
Sun/Oracle/LibO/OOo we really don't need it specifically. However, I know of
at least one large potential customer that would at least like it if not
require it. Its probably not worth our while entering complex negotiations
with such an organisation if it will fail because they require official
contracts that are impossible to get.

Kind regards,
> Goran Rakic
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[tdf-discuss] [Hackfest] Ohio Linux Fest

[drew]

On Thu, 2011-06-23 at 15:36 -0400, drew wrote:
> Just a quick note.
> 
> Have sent off the formal request to the OHLF organizers..will keep folks
> posted as specifics firm up.
> 

Hi,

Quick note.

Exchanged a few emails with one of the other organizers of the show.

No final yes - but looks good.

One slight change is looking likely - moving this from Friday the 9th to
Saturday the 10th. 

I think that would be a plus.

//drew


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Re: [tdf-discuss] TDF Certification

[Uwe Altmann]

Hi Ian

Am 22.06.11 17:01, schrieb Ian Lynch:
>> On 6/22/11 1:40 PM, Ian Lynch wrote:

> ...The OpenOffice project application was submitted through OpenSaar in
> Germany. I wrote it but we thought it better to go through a different
> partner. 

Could you provide some more Information on this for me - that sounds
quite interesting.
I'm living in Saarbrücken and have been for years active member of the
gemanophone OOo-Project but don't know anything about this.
-- 
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Uwe Altmann

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Re: [steering-discuss] Fw: [libreoffice-users] Steam Distribution Inquiry

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Thanks Tom. We're going to contact him.

best,
Charles. 


Le Fri, 24 Jun 2011 12:46:00 +0100 (BST),
Tom Davies  a écrit :

> Hi :)
> The users list got an unusual email from a fairly vast organisation
> that is primarily a vast distribution network.  
> 
> 
> A couple of people pointed them towards the marketing list but i
> think there are other issues that might require a dialogue with the
> Steering Committee and/or BoD and/or the Advisory Board.  
> 
> 
> I have included my verbose response to their initial enquiry but
> please skip that and focus on their request at the bottom of this
> email.  Two other people responded before me with RTFM type answers
> pointing them towards Marketing.  I think we need to be more prepared
> next time but it's not really something that is easy to prepare for
> as it is unlikely to happen again.
> 
> Regards from
> Tom :)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Forwarded Message 
> From: Tom Davies 
> To: us...@global.libreoffice.org
> Cc: ma...@valvesoftware.com
> Sent: Fri, 24 June, 2011 10:51:58
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Steam Distribution Inquiry
> 
> 
> Hi :)
> 
> I think the main people you need to contact are the Steering Committee
> steering-discuss+subscr...@documentfoundation.org
> General discussions about other aspects of TDF are on a separate list
> discuss+subscr...@documentfoundation.org
> but the steering discuss is the more useful list for your needs i
> think.  
> 
> LibreOffice is released under copyleft agreements so you don't really
> need to even ask permission to copy and distribute.  There are a few
> caveats of course. The original source code must be made available to
> anyone that wants it.  
> 
> 
> If you want to mirror the TDF download sites then this list might be
> helpful for a quick result
> mirrors+subscr...@documentfoundation.org
> 
> 
> Further Detail
> If you make a profit then it would be best to give a percentage or
> just an amount of that back to TDF.  Steam personel can modify the
> code but licensing and maintaining the result is tricky unless you
> choose the same copyleft agreement as the original.  Many
> organisations put resources (time, personnel, whatever) into TDF to
> develop code, documentation, translations and so on to get some
> control over which issues are addressed in those areas.  This will
> happen more although the individual volunteers base also grows
> rapidly and everyone is treated equally within TDF as it is a
> meritocracy.  Some organisations such as Google, RedHat, Novell and
> so on have put people on an advisory board that advises the Steering
> Committee and the Board of Directors.  Steam could become a full
> member at that level but it costs a bit and i am not sure about the
> details.  Again  that is an issue for the Steering Committee
> steering-discuss+subscr...@documentfoundation.org
> 
> 
> Side Issues
> If you want to create Dvds to distribute then there are various
> 'localised' versions available.  I think the North American, German,
> Spanish, possibly Brazilian 'localised' versions are already
> available but you could have people join in to help develop those or
> others.  The marketting list is useful for that and things such as
> the international magazine (developed originally by the Brazilian
> Team) marketing+subscr...@global.libreoffice.org
> As other people have already stated that might be a good place to
> deal with most of the issues you asked about.  Personally i think
> Steam are large enough to have issues that the Steering Committee
> might  be more helpful with
> steering-discuss+subscr...@documentfoundation.org
> 
> Perhaps join the websites list to find out about whether TDF have
> torrenting set-up. 
> 
> website+subscr...@global.libreoffice.org
> 
> If you would like to develop a UI, perhaps as an "add-on" (we call
> them "Extensions") then the Design Team might be interested and might
> be keen to help with the work
> design+subscr...@global.libreoffice.org
> 
> 
> As you can see there are a lot of groups working at different aspects
> and it just depends how quickly you want Steam to integrate into
> those areas to maximise their usefulness to Steam.  For a fast result
> i would talk to the Mirrors group and then also join the Steering
> group list for discussions about expanding the potential  for Steam.
> 
> Good luck and regards from
> Tom Davies
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: Mark Richardson 
> To: "us...@global.libreoffice.org" 
> Sent: Thu, 23 June, 2011 18:27:13
> Subject: [libreoffice-users] Steam Distribution Inquiry
> 
> Hello,
> 
> We would like to discuss distributing LibreOffice through our
> worldwide digital platform, Steam.  We are a leader in video game
> distribution and service.  We are launching an application store in
> October and would like to include LibreOffice.  You can  find us at
> Steampowered.com.
> 
> We are a worldwide distributor with 30 million customers, in 22
> languages, 21 localized payment forms and 3 c

[tdf-discuss] Re: When can we have a API to send Emails ?

[Alexander Thurgood]

Le 24/06/11 14:29, Alexander Thurgood a écrit :


Or alternatively, borrow from Caolàn's mailmerge.py which looks for a
part that corresponds to a mail body !!


Alex



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[tdf-discuss] Re: When can we have a API to send Emails ?

[Alexander Thurgood]

Le 24/06/11 13:46, Caolán McNamara a écrit :

Hi Caolàn,

> On Wed, 2011-06-22 at 14:18 +0200, Fernand Vanrie wrote:
>> So please can someone make this small change in the API
> 
> You *might* get some change out of the com.sun.star.mail.MailMessage
> service which implements XMailMessage which has a (horribly-complex)
> route to set the body of the email. 

Do you mean, this bit of MailMessage.hpp :

const ::com::sun::star::uno::Reference<
::com::sun::star::datatransfer::XTransferable >& xBody


where it looks like the body has to be a recognised DataFlavor :

http://api.openoffice.org/docs/common/ref/com/sun/star/datatransfer/DataFlavor.html
and which DataFlavor requires a structure something akin to what is
found through drag and drop or copying to the clipboard - , nice,
looks...mind-boggling :-))


Alex



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Re: [tdf-discuss] When can we have a API to send Emails ?

[Caolán McNamara]

On Wed, 2011-06-22 at 14:18 +0200, Fernand Vanrie wrote:
> So please can someone make this small change in the API

You *might* get some change out of the com.sun.star.mail.MailMessage
service which implements XMailMessage which has a (horribly-complex)
route to set the body of the email. 

(com.sun.star.mail.MailMessage is implemented by the emailmerge
component while com.sun.star.system.SimpleSystemMail is implemented by
something quite different)

C.


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Re: [tdf-discuss] When can we have a API to send Emails ?

[Fernand Vanrie]

Cor ,

I know all this tricks, but its still sending as attachments , i want a 
simple way to send a email with a message in the body


Thanks

Fernand

Hi Fernand,

Fernand Vanrie wrote (22-06-11 14:18)

For some reasons the developpers off the OO-API has decided to not allow
sending Emails using there API

[...]


Not sure if this has been mentioned already, and/or is of use for you, 
but since years I use an dispatch command for the task:


   executeDispatch(oDocFrame, ".uno:SendMailDocAsMS", "", 0, Array())
or
   executeDispatch(oDocFrame, ".uno:SendMailDocAsPDF", "", 0, Array())

Regards,
Cor
(sorry for being late with this)




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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: When can we have a API to send Emails ?

[Fernand Vanrie]

Alex,

I think that your memory recalls are exact, no Email in OO because of a 
fear to use it as spam-mailer.
From what you can sea in the code , is everything is still in please, 
and only the  API part is missing?

Should i make a Enhancement Issue  ?

Greetz

Fernand

Le 23/06/11 15:44, Fernand Vanrie a écrit :

Hi Fernand,


Thanks for yoyr reply, but how do we acces this with the API ?

Greetz


> From my reading of the bits in the code I could find, it is not
implemented. Now that I think of it, I seem to recall that this all came
from the StarOffice dektop days and the Calendar Scheduler, where
e-mails could be sent. From what I recall, there was some kind of
scaremongering about being able to spam people using StarOffice with
potentially dangerous payloads (macros and whatnot), so the mail
functionality got pulled / reduced. It was also all developed from the
MAPI-like interface, but like I said, distant memories that may or may
not be more or less accurate.

Alex





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