[tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-10 Thread Ken Springer 

On 9/9/11 11:24 PM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote:


On 09/09/2011 06:05 PM, Ken Springer wrote:

On 9/9/11 3:40 PM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote:


The links do not lead me to assume that top posting is expected. If the
documentation group desires bottom posting only, the user should be
informed when the register. Even then, I expect that most people will
miss it. Expecting someone to follow a link and then follow another link
seems a wee bit unlikely.

Bottom posting is great when a message is not read in context of the
other messages. When I read threaded messages, it is annoying to wade
through the message history before I arrive at the content of interest.
I might prefer, therefore, that people be prodded into seriously
shortening content from all previous posters to only contain the
portions relevant to their reply.


If you read the Learn to Quote link on the netiquette page, it gets
into why bottom posting and interspersion is or should be the desired
way.


Read it many times. I remain unconvinced. Their points assume a single
style of reading email.


I don't think I agree totally.  I think their points apply to reading 
newsgroups, not email. :-)  I think the two should be kept separate 
since they server different purposes.



I read my email in a threaded view. Usually, I have already read
everything but the latest reply, so, the the top portion of the message
is not required (and is therefore ignored). Unfortunately, it is common
for there to be so much of the message included, that I need to scroll
to view the new text. In other words, it is less efficient and it wastes
my time. (to put it into context, I have counted the steps required to
get to my car when I leave work by different routes)

>

I receive a very large volume of email. It is usually less than 1000
messages a day, but, still, the time and physical movements to scroll to
the bottom of each message is sufficient to stress my wrists and hands.
So, if I can skim the new content in less than two seconds, and it takes
me longer than that to even get to the new content, well, then I more
than double the time I spend skimming email.

The bigger concern for me is neither bottom nor top posting, it is
trimming the message if you do not top post. With a top post, I can
trivially see the response.


"I feel your pain!"  A poster in another newsgroup said that to me, and 
I've been looking for a place to use it!   LOL


I find top posted posts harder to follow the flow of the message.  My 
preference would be interspersion, since your reply is right below the 
part of a post you are replying to.  Top posting is like the old Karnak 
routine Johnny Carson had on the Tonight Show.  He'd give the answer, 
then tell you the question inside a sealed envelope.  Most of the time, 
when I read a top posted message, I end up scrolling through the message 
anyway, wondering "What the H*** is he/she talking about?":-D


So I suspect it's not going to make much difference about message length 
whether you top, bottom, or intersperse you posts, it's going to be the 
poster and the tools used (i.e. what agent you are using to read the 
posts) that will ultimately make a post easy to read or not.


Seriously, though, I checked the source for your message, and we both 
are using Thunderbird 6.


Within the last week, I learned about the QuoteCollapse add-on.  It 
takes each quoted section of a reply, and collapses it to one line. 
There's a little plus sign that will let you expand that section to full 
length.  It's great for those posts where there's been no trimming, but 
lots of replies.


At this point, this add-on would seem to eliminate the need of trimming, 
too.


Add it to your TB, I'd like to know what you think of it.  It may do a 
lot to solve your issues and concerns.


If the author for Quote Colors would make that add-on compatible with TB 
6, then replying would be easier, IMO.




But like you, I think the LO people need to specify it directly on the
page, even better would be for them to actually write their own
netiquette page.


If they care, they should write it. Yes.


Or, given the resources they have, a dedicated netiquette page is just 
too far down the priority list, and/or no one has offered to do it.


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 6.0.2
Thunderbird 6.0.2
LibreOffice 3.3.3


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[tdf-discuss] Re: Automatic Update / Update info

2011-09-10 Thread alfredo87 
hello all,
yes just a notification that new stable version or patch is available.
NEOFFICE used to do it very efficiently and just apply patches. If LO is not
implementing updates I suggest we all go back to NEOFFICE on the Mac OS X 

bye 
alfredo87

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-10 Thread Robert Holtzman 
On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 05:31:50AM -0600, Ken Springer wrote:

   ..snip.
> 
> At this point, this add-on would seem to eliminate the need of
> trimming, too.

Of course that would screw non-TB users.

 snip

-- 
Bob Holtzman
If you think you're getting free lunch, 
check the price of the beer.
Key ID: 8D549279

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-10 Thread Friedrich Strohmaier 
Hi NoOp, *,

I appreciate Your initiative..

Am 08.09.2011 02:16 schrieb NoOp:
> For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please
> consider bottom posting with interspersed replies.

Those who insist, won't consider. I think it's a good Idea to provide
those with kind of guidance or recommendation who don`t know better, and
want to express their respect to the attention the audience invests in
their request.

[..]

> posting. However at the bottom of each mail on this list is a link to:
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> That page doesn't help much either,

You ore someone else are warmly invited to change this. I hacked it
together after nobody wanted to volunteer, when I setup that footer
entries. So doing the footer thing brought me more work which could have
been done from someone else with no special permissions and skills. It
*intionally* is a wiki site. ;o))

[..]

> Eventually I hope that LO will actually include a link to general
> posting guidelines on the
>  page with complete
> posting guidelines.

+1 on that

> Even if the final consensus is to only top post...
> at least will help with consistancy on this (users), and the other LO lists.

I think this is not a matter of conensus but more kind of
recommendation, how to save the readers effort to catch the message and
use the time saved to give useful comments. ;o))

> Added Note: I'd originally sent this to the users list as IMO that is
> where the guidelines are needed most.

definitly.

> So there may be some cross posting in replies.

No "genuine" crossposting so at least consistent threads per mailing
list. The better lazy way :o))

Regarding the "learn to quote" and similar posting guidelines of that kind:
They are collected experience of efficient mail/newsgroup communication
over a long time - nothing more and nothing less.

Long stories could be told about this topic - I try to make it short:

As one reading a high number of mails a day and one having project
experience (since 2003 OOo membership included) enabling me to give
answers at many places, I mostly skip mails which show me the poster
doesn't worry about my time and effort reading his post. So I rise my
daily range about 50 mails, reading and responding the ones of those
writers which show respect to my effort.


Gruß/regards
-- 
Friedrich
Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/
LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images

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[tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-10 Thread Ken Springer 

On 9/7/11 6:16 PM, NoOp wrote:

For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please
consider bottom posting with interspersed replies.




Sadly, it won't matter what rules are in effect if there is no desire to 
enforce them.



--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.6.8
Firefox 6.0.2
Thunderbird 6.0.2
LibreOffice 3.3.3


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[tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-10 Thread Ken Springer 

On 9/10/11 12:25 PM, Robert Holtzman wrote:

On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 05:31:50AM -0600, Ken Springer wrote:

..snip.


At this point, this add-on would seem to eliminate the need of
trimming, too.


Of course that would screw non-TB users.


Not all of them.  And look at the number of untrimmed posts anyway.  :-)

I wasn't necessarily saying people should stop trimming altogether, it 
can still be useful.  But it would eliminate the writer's quandary of 
should I trim this or should I not?


And, there's nothing to stop users who have software that doesn't 
collapse a quote from looking around to find software that does.  I 
would think there are dedicated newsgroup reading software that has this 
feature.



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Ken

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Thunderbird 6.0.2
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