[board-discuss] today's agenda
Hi, I just added some items to today's agenda at https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/BoD_Meetings#Agenda It looks rather long, but for most of the items, I only plan to distribute work to some of you, rather than discuss them in detail, so don't worry. ;-) Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Chairman of the Board at The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to board-discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/board-discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: The Floppy icon and meritocracy
Hello Pedro, Le Wed, 8 Feb 2012 06:17:10 -0800 (PST), Pedro pedl...@gmail.com a écrit : Charles-H.Schulz wrote This being said and at the risk of sounding evil and stubborn: FOSS has never been about demoracy. It's limited democracy at best, that is, democracy narrowed to a very defined set of decisions, with a strong meritocracy making up for most of everything and *sigh* documented processes. I'm afraid this time we skipped the documented process part. Please bear with us ;-) I have to disagree with you. Maybe this is a reality for a large project such as LibreOffice. But I have collaborated (and still do) on FOSS projects that are mostly democratic. So this is not a characteristic of FOSS but maybe of large FOSS projects. Do you have examples? I'd be happy to hear about them, I'm sure we work in a very similar fashion... best, Charles. In any case I managed to hack the Tango theme and replace the new icons with the old ones (BTW someone forgot to update the saveastemplate icons in the new Theme ;) ) You can't use your old tango theme from 3.4.x because the folder structure has been changed between versions. So, if anyone is interested, it's freely available here http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2347109/images_tango.zip There are no virus or backdoors or whatnot (it just contains png images so it can not possibly contain any harmful code) You have to replace the old theme because for some odd reason the list of allowed themes seems to be hardcoded. Otherwise I would have called it old_tango, floppy_tango or stubborn_users'_tango :) For Windows user it should be placed at %ProgramFiles%\LibreOffice 3.5\share\config\images_tango.zip Thank you for the tip! Best, Charles. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: The Floppy icon and meritocracy
Hi again Charles Charles-H.Schulz wrote Do you have examples? I'd be happy to hear about them, I'm sure we work in a very similar fashion... Of course. Here is an excellent one http://emergedesktop.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1419 You don't work in a similar fashion ;) Regards, Pedro -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/The-Floppy-icon-and-meritocracy-tp3725399p3726162.html Sent from the Discuss mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: The Floppy icon and meritocracy
Hello Pedro, Le Wed, 8 Feb 2012 06:47:05 -0800 (PST), Pedro pedl...@gmail.com a écrit : Hi again Charles Charles-H.Schulz wrote Do you have examples? I'd be happy to hear about them, I'm sure we work in a very similar fashion... Of course. Here is an excellent one http://emergedesktop.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1419 You don't work in a similar fashion ;) I think we do. And I think some terms may not be very accurately used here. What this thread says -and I took the time not to just look at the thread but at the other areas of the project as well- is that developers listen to user feedback. And that's probably a good thing to do although some people might disagree (cf. Henry Ford); yet listening to user feedback hardly makes up a democracy. It's user feedback. In some cases it might be a case of nice customer service. But it does not help that much. I'll explain myself. Let me describe to you what I called limited democracy here, and I'll also give you links of small and less small FOSS projects that implement meritocracy and are by no ways democracies (other than limited democracies). A FOSS project mainly produces code. Its sole reason, in fact, is to produce code; whether someone pays for it or manages to be a guru at product strategy and marketing so well he can even entrance hackers in its Reality Distortion Field is another question. FOSS projects produce code. Then, around that rough code you have another categories of contributors: the QA testers, the localizers, the documentation writers, the marketers (no particular order here); sometimes you have the extension developers as well. All these people do something very specific: they contribute to the project. Granted it might not only be code, but that's beside the point. They contribute and they make the project. The reason they contribute might be completely unknown to you, or there might be as many reasons as you will find for each contributor. It's good sometimes to question or to know what's the general reason to contribute from one or two active contributors, but it's not always necessary. Back to our contributors; they form the active people who push the project forward, heck, they are the project themselves. But because each of them might contribute for various and sometimes opposite reasons, any of them, sometimes even all of them or a good majority of them, will stop contributing; conversely, they might even increase their contribution. If you stick to the original line from Eric Raymond (the Cathedral and the Bazaar, a must read), the reason any developer would contribute is because he/she'd like to scratch an itch. Granted that scratch might be for hire or is already funded, but that's besides the point. In the end, it's the people who make the software (and distribute it, promote it) who call the shots. They call the shots because they get to make the software at various levels. So it's a meritocracy because it's a do-ocracy in a sense. The good news here is that it makes up for quite a lot of people. The not so good news in a sense, is that mere users, by which I mean passive users, who do not contribute anything in terms of code, tests, localization, documentation, dictionaries, pamphlets, designs, etc. are only left with one choice: to use the software if they like it, or to stop using it. The only reason is not that it's not a democracy, it's just that they don't have the power to act on the software project unless they adopt or reject it. There is also a more subtle good part in this: no user is barred to join the contributors' ranks; and when this user actually does, he'll have a say as long as he remains a contributor. There are projects who do not formally formalize too much who specifically are their contributors. Some others do. The Document Foundation does formalize it to the extent that it is our contributors who own the foundation and nobody else does. It's not just in our social contract or an unwritten assumption, it's legal . There are rather broad criteria to define what a contributor is and does (our bylaws and statutes define them) and anyone who qualifies become thus a member of the foundation with rather large political rights. In this sense we have democracy. But FOSS projects do not run on open and democratic structure; they run on transparent and agreed processes, with an free and open source code at their core. Hope this helps, and sorry for the long email, -- Charles-H. Schulz Member of the Board of Directors, The Document Foundation. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: The Floppy icon and meritocracy
Hi again, I forgot the links... Le Wed, 8 Feb 2012 16:58:17 +0100, Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org a écrit : --- SNIP http://www.debian.org http://www.fedora-project.org http://www.opensuse.org http://www.claws-mail.org http://www.drupal.org http://www.django.org http://www.archlinux.org http://www.hforge.org (all different projects of various sizes)... Best, -- Charles-H. Schulz Member of the Board of Directors, The Document Foundation. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: The Floppy icon and meritocracy
Hi again Charles Charles-H.Schulz wrote What this thread says -and I took the time not to just look at the thread but at the other areas of the project as well- is that developers listen to user feedback. And that's probably a good thing to do although some people might disagree (cf. Henry Ford); yet listening to user feedback hardly makes up a democracy. It's user feedback. In some cases it might be a case of nice customer service. But it does not help that much. I'll explain myself. Let's see. The developer is asking the community who is using a given feature (which he states would prefer to drop). Yet he subjects this to an open poll (not even limited to the registered forum users) and he is willing to accept the opinion of the majority. If that is not a democracy, it's damn close! How is that even similar to meritocracy? Meritocracy would be: I'm the developer, I don't have time for this so I'm dropping it. If some one else wants to keep developing it, just do it. I'm not arguing that all those projects that you pointed do not follow the same logic (I'm not saying this is a TDF / LO exclusive). I'm just showing you that other FOSS projects can be (and some are!) democratic. Regards, Pedro -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/The-Floppy-icon-and-meritocracy-tp3725399p3726667.html Sent from the Discuss mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: The Floppy icon and meritocracy
Le Wed, 8 Feb 2012 09:04:34 -0800 (PST), Pedro pedl...@gmail.com a écrit : Hi again Charles Charles-H.Schulz wrote What this thread says -and I took the time not to just look at the thread but at the other areas of the project as well- is that developers listen to user feedback. And that's probably a good thing to do although some people might disagree (cf. Henry Ford); yet listening to user feedback hardly makes up a democracy. It's user feedback. In some cases it might be a case of nice customer service. But it does not help that much. I'll explain myself. Let's see. The developer is asking the community who is using a given feature (which he states would prefer to drop). Yet he subjects this to an open poll (not even limited to the registered forum users) and he is willing to accept the opinion of the majority. If that is not a democracy, it's damn close! How is that even similar to meritocracy? Meritocracy would be: I'm the developer, I don't have time for this so I'm dropping it. If some one else wants to keep developing it, just do it. I'm not arguing that all those projects that you pointed do not follow the same logic (I'm not saying this is a TDF / LO exclusive). I'm just showing you that other FOSS projects can be (and some are!) democratic. hmm, then I don't agree with your qualification of democratic. You have similar polls in supermarkets. But supermarkets are no democracies. A democracy means a democratic structure, not a consumer/plebeian feedback process, no matter how effective it is. best, -- Charles-H. Schulz Member of the Board of Directors, The Document Foundation. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: The Floppy icon and meritocracy
Charles-H.Schulz wrote You have similar polls in supermarkets. But supermarkets are no democracies. Really? Supermarkets make polls for products they do not wish to sell? And they do accept the shopper's decision? I have never seen such a supermarket! Anyway even if the developers aren't elected by the users (to have what you call a democratic structure) it still is pretty close to a democracy and much more community friendly than meritocracy ;) Regards, Pedro -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/The-Floppy-icon-and-meritocracy-tp3725399p3726790.html Sent from the Discuss mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] The Floppy icon and meritocracy
On 08/02/12 10:54, Pedro wrote: Hi all I just read the UX thread/sequence of emails where it was decided that the universal Save icon (in any program, any OS) represented by a floppy disk would be replaced by another icon. I'm shocked that a Discuss topic where 54 messages from many people (several of them opposing and presenting valid arguments against) was totally dismissed because someone decided that it was time to change and the main argument was that it was outdated. This is not about the floppy icon itself or a criticism to who decided to change it. It is about the process. If this is meritocracy then it sucks! A little democracy would go a long way to build a community. Communities don't behave like this. (Disappointed) Regards, Pedro I totally agree with you :-)) about the outdating, should airplanes change all they reference to navy language?? why you go on board of plane? is there any board in airplane?? Pier -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: The Floppy icon and meritocracy
Hi Pedro, On 08/02/2012 18:37, Pedro wrote: Charles-H.Schulz wrote You have similar polls in supermarkets. But supermarkets are no democracies. Really? Supermarkets make polls for products they do not wish to sell? And they do accept the shopper's decision? I have never seen such a supermarket! Anyway even if the developers aren't elected by the users (to have what you call a democratic structure) it still is pretty close to a democracy and much more community friendly than meritocracy ;) I think that nobody in the community would prevent you to organize such a poll. If you manage to deal with it from the ux and developer point of view, we always valued the broader input we can get. If you look at what is happening currently for the conditional formating dialog, http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Libreoffice-ux-advise-conditional-format-dialog-td3724185.html what you want is currently happening. But (there is always a but ;) the size of our community makes it very difficult to manage the feedback from our users. More if you add the language communities feedback (for this specific case, I know the FR community has been asked for feedback) it's even more complicated to collect the thoughts and translate them. So if you feel that you can manage to organize a communication flow between the different actors of the project, I'm really sure that nobody will prevent you to do so, on the contrary I'm sure you'll find people to support you and help you. It's not democracy still, it's: you want it, you do it ;-) Kind regards Sophie -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: The Floppy icon and meritocracy
Sophie Gautier wrote the size of our community makes it very difficult to manage the feedback from our users That is exactly what I said :) I accept that it is difficult to have democracy in such a large community. My argument is that FOSS is not inherently incompatible with democracy, contrary to David's logical demonstration and to Charles' argumentation. In any case it would be a futile exercise to just do a Poll since it would not bind anyone to the results :) -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/The-Floppy-icon-and-meritocracy-tp3725399p3727022.html Sent from the Discuss mailing list archive at Nabble.com. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: The Floppy icon and meritocracy
On 08/02/2012 19:41, Pedro wrote: Sophie Gautier wrote the size of our community makes it very difficult to manage the feedback from our users That is exactly what I said :) I accept that it is difficult to have democracy in such a large community. My argument is that FOSS is not inherently incompatible with democracy, contrary to David's logical demonstration and to Charles' argumentation. In any case it would be a futile exercise to just do a Poll since it would not bind anyone to the results :) I won't be so pessimistic. Of course, if it's a poll without any process and defined workflow, I agree with you. But if before you put an organization in place, it won't be futile and could bring a lot to the project. Kind regards Sophie -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] confcall issues gone?
Hello, I just wanted to ask all those who participated in today's confcall: Do I assume correctly that the issues are gone? No echoes, no noise, dial-in works? Anyone made a different experience? Thanks, Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Chairman of the Board at The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] confcall issues gone?
It went well for me but Thorsten sounded like he was in a subway ;-) Best, Charles. Le 8 févr. 2012 20:53, Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org a écrit : Hello, I just wanted to ask all those who participated in today's confcall: Do I assume correctly that the issues are gone? No echoes, no noise, dial-in works? Anyone made a different experience? Thanks, Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org** Chairman of the Board at The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+help@**documentfoundation.orgdiscuss%2bh...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/**get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-** unsubscribe/http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.**documentfoundation.org/** Netiquette http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.**documentfoundation.org/www/**discuss/http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] confcall issues gone?
Hello, I just wanted to ask all those who participated in today's confcall: Do I assume correctly that the issues are gone? No echoes, no noise, dial-in works? Worked well for me using skype. -- Jesús Corrius je...@softcatala.org -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: The Floppy icon and meritocracy
Þann mið 8.feb 2012 18:50, skrifaði sophie: On 08/02/2012 19:41, Pedro wrote: Sophie Gautier wrote the size of our community makes it very difficult to manage the feedback from our users That is exactly what I said :) I accept that it is difficult to have democracy in such a large community. My argument is that FOSS is not inherently incompatible with democracy, contrary to David's logical demonstration and to Charles' argumentation. In any case it would be a futile exercise to just do a Poll since it would not bind anyone to the results :) I won't be so pessimistic. Of course, if it's a poll without any process and defined workflow, I agree with you. But if before you put an organization in place, it won't be futile and could bring a lot to the project. Even though I did forward my 2 cents on the issue, I didn't have such a strong opinion on the matter (the usual 5% of the users I occationally support will moan, I'm sure). To me, the case was solved by those who were there - at the time it happened - so be it. Maybe I'm not really bothered because this about a (trivial?) thing which then may be overruled/changed in the future, when/if there will be a more general policy-decision about icon-sets and theming. And before taking such bigger (democratic) decisions, there's a lot of work to do. Sveinn í Felli -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] confcall issues gone?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi Em 08-02-2012 17:50, Florian Effenberger escreveu: Hello, I just wanted to ask all those who participated in today's confcall: Do I assume correctly that the issues are gone? No echoes, no noise, dial-in works? Anyone made a different experience? Thanks, Florian I *have* to use skype, and it is a sort of lottery, one day is great, the other not so... depends where I pick the broadband, solar flares, tropical weather, and so on :-) Regards - -- Olivier Hallot Founder, Board of Directors Member - The Document Foundation LibreOffice translation leader for Brazilian Portuguese +55-21-8822-8812 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJPMvQMAAoJEJp3R7nH3vLx1QwH/1FannfZkvEd3QSS9ZlfufOM 69Y+DwCl8XXZIuoyzTVwUXz8LpIfRah5v7jMOxqsJW6VAA+LWfIccQpEyUefihUV U7D9zwip0c1vrgoTNgpMQ4WLIgew73AG/oqzRsNPUBqUq2xWJ1cdEUswE80xeAq9 zVuq6ae+tp3yHY4cbsVkxYQx+jdnGro2GgFJ09VD84efIp2PqiYSn4e0thqGMRxj CLHj4jAlSoB7z4rQSzWMYphZrNvlBuQ5/UFTNIZq9uzc9V+I5D7iEUGmKYMFy6bh kGRxsIc3nCQZ4abyEDdgawzKbsHgrzvAKWpKoqYOk6nLSeVjDbW1kIJNZrPX+LY= =1WrW -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] confcall issues gone?
Hello, Olivier Hallot wrote on 2012-02-08 23:15: I*have* to use skype, and it is a sort of lottery, one day is great, the other not so... depends where I pick the broadband, solar flares, tropical weather, and so on:-) what I would recommend is to use either SkypeOut to dial to one of the regular numbers, or Google Voice. Both is rather cheap, and probably more reliable than the Skype dialin. ;) Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Chairman of the Board at The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
