RE: [tdf-discuss] Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice
Allen Pulsifer wrote: If most or almost all of the LO contributors joined the Apache OpenOffice project, if only to lend moral support and help heal the rift, that would only be good for LO and the TdF. Thorsten Behrens wrote: Allen, how can you, with a straight face, ask people here to come over to a different project, that likely noone here is really happy with, that was setup as a fait acompli, marketed as the natural upstream, removes rights from people's contributions, and is effectively competing (by how the proposal reads)? Hello Thorsten, I do not agree with your conclusion that the Apache OpenOffice project is a competing project. You simply chose to view it that way. There are others, such as myself, who view it as a potential upstream project, where all of the contributions at the upstream project can be used by LibreOffce. In that respect, it is similar to python, java, boost, hsqldb, libjpeg, curl, lpsolve, or anyone of hundreds of other project. Are those competing projects? Second, I can recommend that LibreOffice contributors join Apache OpenOffice because I am firmly convinced that would be in the best interests of the LibreOffice project. Amazingly, your response does not even argue otherwise. Instead, your response focuses on the fact even if it were in the best interests of the LibreOffice project, for personal reasons you would never consider reconciling with it. That to me is just astounding, that you are open and brazen about putting your personal issues ahead of the project. Here's what could have been: The world could have woken up one morning to an announcement by the TdF congratulating the Apache Foundation for joining the OpenOffice community, and stating that it was looking forward to working with Apache, IBM and all other interested parties to create the best possible open document technologies, and that the TdF would be incorporating those technologies into LibreOffice in order to make it the best end-user office suite possible. The world could have then read in the press and trade magazines that virtually all of the LibreOffice developers had joined the Apache OpenOffice project, that the community had been reunited and that the future was bright. The end users (remember the end users, the ones I talked about in my last post that you seem intent on ignoring?), heartened by the optimistic message and comforted by the reunification of the community, would have come back off the sidelines looking to benefit from the project, and many of them would have discovered LibreOffice. The LibreOffice project would when be boosted by thousands of new users, and possibly could over time have developed a reputation as the best OpenOffice package. Instead, due to your personal issues, the world has heard a much different story: that you were dissed or slighted; that there is possibly some problem with the TdF or LibreOffice that people keep talking about, and no matter how much it is denied, the nagging feeling persists that it might be true; and that the LibreOffice community refuses to work with IBM or the Apache Foundation for personal reasons. It seems that your story about being dissed or slighted in one of your favorite stories, and you are determined to keep telling it for a long time. I'm quite certain that the end users (remember the end users, the ones I talked about in my last post that you seem intent on ignoring?) aren't interested in that story. With just a few simple actions on your part, you could have accomplished in a few minutes what would have taken you at least a year to accomplish with just programming (if it can even be accomplished that way at all). That's right, in this world, marketing matters. User perception matters. The best mouse trap does not always win. A few positives stories in the press can make or break a fledgling project. You can spend years developing software, and then sabotage it in a minute with a poor marketing decision. Such is that nature of business. So my all means, continue forward with your decision that your personal story is what really matters. That is your prerogative. Meanwhile, the LibreOffice project will never be what it could have been. The opportunity that has been lost will never come back again. That is the tragedy. Best Regards, Allen -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE: [tdf-discuss] Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice
Allen Pulsifer wrote: I do not agree with your conclusion that the Apache OpenOffice project is a competing project. You simply chose to view it that way. Simon Phipps wrote: The main proposer of the project, Rob Weir of IBM, clearly stated his intent for it to be a competing project - he even accused me of being potentially in breach of anti-trust law on the Apache list[1], and has just re-asserted his view on his blog[2]. So while many of us had hoped for a collaborative approach, there are powerful forces who don't want that. Hello Simon, The donation of the OpenOffice code, trademark and domain were made to the Apache Foundation, not to IBM or to Rob Weir. Rob Weir is only one of many people who are now members of the project at Apache. As the board members of the Apache Foundation made it clear, those members will have the primary responsibility for determining the direction of the project, not IBM or Rob Weir. I happen to be one of those persons, and as a member, I have the same voice as Rob Weir. That means the same voice in determining what goes on the openoffice.org website, how the openoffice.org trademark is used, and whether the project direction is collaborative or competitive. As an experienced person in the open source world, I would think you know by now that it is a lot easier to influence a project when have a seat at the table and are working from the inside rather of the outside. You could have also been one of those persons with a seat at the table, and together, we would have had twice the voice as Rob Weir. Every other member of this community could have also joined, and that would have been an overwhelming voice. Again, a lost opportunity. Allen -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE: [tdf-discuss] Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice
Allen Pulsifer wrote: As an experienced person in the open source world, I would think you know by now that it is a lot easier to influence a project when have a seat at the table and are working from the inside rather of the outside. You could have also been one of those persons with a seat at the table, and together, we would have had twice the voice as Rob Weir. Simon Phipps replied: Excuse me? What are all the contributions I am making on that list? Chopped liver? Pretty much, yes. As a person who chose not to have a seat at the table, you are serving up chopped liver for the people at the table to taste and decide whether they want to eat it. That's a fair analogy, I think, if it's the one you want to use. Allen -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE: [tdf-discuss] Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice
Davide Dozza wrote: Sorry Allen but you are in contradiction. Before you say Regardless of who's fault and at the end it seems you are accusing TDF to be the cause of the community fracture. I made no accusations and assigned no fault. I'm also not interested in assigning fault or blame. That's an unfortunate distraction it seems many have gotten caught up in, and IMO, it has only hurt the project not helped it. On that point, let me be clear: There are millions of potential users for OOo, LO, and open document formats. Many of those potential users work in companies, government agencies and other organizations that routinely trust Microsoft, Oracle, IBM and other large corporations to meet their IT needs. Getting in a public spat with any of those companies does not help the project in the least, it only hurts it. End users do not care about who's right, who's wrong, who's been slighted, who is more pure, etc. They just care about products and technologies that are going to meet their needs. For many users, the best thing OOo had going for it was that it was backed by Sun and there was a commercial version users they could turn to if they needed support, etc. Now that Oracle has pulled out, that is gone and TdF cannot replace it. Regardless of individual feelings, the best the TdF and its members could do at this point would be to put on a smiling face, magnanimously congratulate the ASF for joining the community, and at least make it look like they were working closely with IBM to bring the best possible open document technologies to the world. If most or almost all of the LO contributors joined the Apache OpenOffice project, if only to lend moral support and help heal the rift, that would only be good for LO and the TdF. The best time to do that is now. Best Regards, Allen -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE: [tdf-discuss] Re: [Libreoffice] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice
Forking makes cooperation more expensive. Your intentions are less important than your consequences. Hello Keith, As long as you are hung up on forks, you might want to get your facts right. Sun created the official OOo distribution when they open sourced StarOffice. Sun maintained control of the OpenOffice.org name, and made it clear from the beginning that any contributions to the official OOo distribution would only be accepted if they were accompanied by a copyright assignment. That system chugged along for many years, with varying levels of satisfaction and dissatisfaction. I agree with you that fork has been created. The seeds of that fork were germinated in the Go-Oo project, which created patches and enhancements that were not contributed back to the official OOo distribution. That became a full fork when the LibreOffice project was started by importing all of the OOo source code into a new repository. It was therefore TdF that created a fork, by creating a new version of the source code and making changes that they did not contribute back to the official distribution. I make that statement completely without making a value judgment whether that is a good thing or a bad thing. But if you are going to talk about the history of the project and start saying all forks are bad, you should at least get your facts straight about who actually created the fork. Also, if you are going to talk about a split in the community, you should mention that TdF and LibreOffice were created in secret, without any public discussions or community input. I say that again completely without making a value judgment whether that was a good thing or a bad thing, but again, when you recount the history, you should do so honestly. Best Regards, Allen -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE: [tdf-discuss] RE: Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice
Is it possible to allow Oracle to donate to Apache and then for TDF to go to Apache and say Please let us have that? Hello Zaphod, There are two pieces to Oracle's donation: 1. Oracle has granted the Apache Software Foundation a license to distribute the OpenOffice code under the Apache License. (To answer the question Charles just posted, Oracle has retained ownership of the copyrights, and granted the ASF a license.) 2. Oracle has granted the ASF permission to use the OpenOffice.org trademark, and has indicated that it will eventually transfer ownership of that trademark and the openoffice.org internet domain to the ASF. Just addressing the code, yes, the TDF can take all of the code under the Apache License, so that part is done. I think what you are saying though is this: Can we ask the ASF to not go forward with an Apache OpenOffice project that is licensed under the Apache License. The answer is that we can ask and that has been asked. The sentiment over at the ASF is that they see value in having an Apache Licensed project. With an Apache Licensed project, anyone downstream can use the code, including TDF, IBM, or anyone else, and they can use it for open source or closed source derivatives. That is essentially the ASF's mission in life. They are a USA recognized charity (a 501(3)(c), I believe), that is dedicated to producing software that is free for virtually any use. So it is my understanding that having accepted the donation from Oracle, their preference is to do ahead and convert the code to the Apache License, so that the core ODF functionality and any other important and valuable technologies can be adopted into as many projects as possible, both open source and commercial. They are welcoming anyone to participate in that who has an interested in OpenOffice, ODF, free software, etc. They have no problem with the TDF using any code that the project produces, and they welcome contributions from any TDF members, whether they want to contribute individually or as a group. That is my understanding. Allen -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Proposal to join Apache OpenOffice
Greetings All, Some of you will remember me as a long time member of the OpenOffice.org community. In fact, back in the day, it was sometimes just myself and Michael Meeks who were openly complaining on the OOo mailing list about Sun's handling of the community :-) I'm writing today about what is going on over at the Apache project. When I heard Oracle was donating the OpenOffice code to the Apache project, I headed over there to see what was going on. I offer this brief report to bring everyone up to speed: - According to officers of the Apache Software Foundation, Oracle donated OpenOffice to the ASF by executing the ASF's standard copyright grant. This grant allows the ASF to release the OpenOffice code under the Apache License. - The ASF however has a process to accept a project. The OpenOffice project is now in the proposal stage. If accepted, it will join the Apache Incubator and become a podling, which is basically a project-in-development. During the podling stage, the project would be expected to complete the steps needed to become a full ASF project. Among other requirements, the podling project has to review the copyright history of all code to ensure it has a clean title and is or can be licensed under the Apache License. If it completes that process, it then becomes a full Apache project. See https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/incubation_at_apache_what_s - While the code donation was made by Oracle, the primary champion in the effort to get the code accepted as is Apache Project is IBM. Let's have no illusions or delusions about this. IBM has a self-interested motive in championing this project. Basically, IBM would like to setup a community where both it and other contributors make contributions under the Apache License, and then IBM would take some or all of those contributions and use them in its proprietary products which includes for example IBM Lotus Symphony. The Apache License specifically allows this. In fact, the Apache License allows anyone to take the code and use it in their own project, open source or closed source. In the Apache world, that is considered a feature not a bug. The ASF would like to see as many people using the code as possible, and for that reason, their license is as liberal as possible, allowing anyone to use the code. That is exactly the reason that IBM is championing this as an Apache Project, rather than a LGPL project. And that brings me (almost) to the point of this email. Any code contributed to the Apache OpenOffice project could be used by anyone, including The Document Foundation, which can take the code, integrate it into LibreOffice, and release it under the LGPL. Sounds like a good deal, huh? Here's the rub. IBM, as I mentioned, is doing this for self-interested reasons. I would like to propose the members of LibreOffice community get involved in this for similarly self-interested reasons. I understand there are some bad feelings toward IBM. Basically, there is the perception that IBM has been taking OpenOffice code all of these years and contributing little back to the OpenOffice community. That is probably true. As far as I can see, IBM has at least been taking much more than it has given back. I'm not sure that can continue though, because as the champion of the proposed Apache OpenOffice project, IBM is going to have to contribute. So you might say though, why not just sit back, let IBM make contributions to Apache OpenOffice, and then we'll just cherry pick what we want for LibreOffice. Well that would certainly work, but I don't think it would work as well as getting involved. There is also another player in this, and that is the Apache Software Foundation. The ASF is an honorable organization with a long track record in open source and they are dedicated to fostering a community. In the ASF, anyone can contribute. Contributions and participation are made by individuals, not by or on behalf of companies or organizations. The community determines the direction of the project. Membership in the community is based on merit, which is measured not just by code contributions, but by anything that supports the project, which could also include documentation, testing, bug reports, etc. So while the LibreOffice could just sit back and cherry-pick the project, if its members get involved, they can help determine the direction of the project, ensuring that the project direction and design decision are compatible with LibreOffice and have the maximum value to LibreOffice. The ASF has no problems with this--in fact, they encourage it. Just as IBM is getting involved in an Apache OpenOffice project because they want to use the code in their products, the ASF will welcome TDF members getting involved for the same self-interested reason, to use the code in LibreOffice. Critically, at this stage in the process, everyone has a free pass to get involved. Normally, once the project is up and running, you would
