Re: Inkscape vs. Draw (was: Re: [tdf-discuss] Apply button)
On 17 November 2010 22:53, Benjamin Horst wrote: > > On Nov 17, 2010, at 11:36 AM, Ian Lynch wrote: > > On 17 November 2010 16:17, Benjamin Horst wrote: > >> On Nov 16, 2010, at 5:36 PM, Ian Lynch wrote: > >>> Think this has lost the plot :-) The argument was not necessarily to > >> replace > >>> Draw with Inkscape but to learn from it. > >> > >> Excellent--this is what I was hoping we were collectively thinking in > this > >> discussion. Using successful attributes of Inkscape as inspiration for > >> improvements to Draw is a great approach, since it has faced and solved > many > >> of the same problems. > >> > > > > One thing I really like in Inkscape is the object alignment tools. Very > easy > > to use and very powerful. Surely that would not be too difficult to > > implement in Draw? > > I agree--these would be a major benefit for Draw users. They may be my > biggest feature request for Draw as well. Well they are there in a different form and a bit simpler so it should not be too big a task to improve them. Going for relatively simple tasks that make a significant difference is most cost-effective in use of resources. > -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications The Schools ITQwww.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 You have received this email from the following company: The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: Inkscape vs. Draw (was: Re: [tdf-discuss] Apply button)
On Nov 17, 2010, at 11:36 AM, Ian Lynch wrote: > On 17 November 2010 16:17, Benjamin Horst wrote: >> On Nov 16, 2010, at 5:36 PM, Ian Lynch wrote: >>> Think this has lost the plot :-) The argument was not necessarily to >> replace >>> Draw with Inkscape but to learn from it. >> >> Excellent--this is what I was hoping we were collectively thinking in this >> discussion. Using successful attributes of Inkscape as inspiration for >> improvements to Draw is a great approach, since it has faced and solved many >> of the same problems. >> > > One thing I really like in Inkscape is the object alignment tools. Very easy > to use and very powerful. Surely that would not be too difficult to > implement in Draw? I agree--these would be a major benefit for Draw users. They may be my biggest feature request for Draw as well. -Ben Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com 646-464-2314 (Eastern) www.solidoffice.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: Inkscape vs. Draw (was: Re: [tdf-discuss] Apply button)
On 17 November 2010 16:17, Benjamin Horst wrote: > On Nov 16, 2010, at 5:36 PM, Ian Lynch wrote: > > Think this has lost the plot :-) The argument was not necessarily to > replace > > Draw with Inkscape but to learn from it. > > Excellent--this is what I was hoping we were collectively thinking in this > discussion. Using successful attributes of Inkscape as inspiration for > improvements to Draw is a great approach, since it has faced and solved many > of the same problems. > One thing I really like in Inkscape is the object alignment tools. Very easy to use and very powerful. Surely that would not be too difficult to implement in Draw? -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications The Schools ITQwww.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 You have received this email from the following company: The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: Inkscape vs. Draw (was: Re: [tdf-discuss] Apply button)
On Nov 16, 2010, at 4:16 PM, BRM wrote: > It's other short-coming is that it's a do-one-thing-and-do-it-well piece of > software. > It won't replace a Bitmap editor, which is very useful for creating new > artwork > and getting the shading right. > > Yes, it does vector graphics and uses SVG. It's entirely designed around SVG. > Yes, you can probably export to other formats (been a while since I tried, > though I know at least PNG can be exported to). > But that doesn't resolve the need for doing coloration, etc in the way a > bitmap > editor can do it - which is the antithesis of InkScape. > There are strengths and weaknesses to both - and yes, InkScape does a great > job > at what it does. (I do love using it, and it's far far easier to use than > GIMP.) > But a suite like LibO needs both sides of the functionality. I've long wanted to see a simple raster (bitmap) image editor included in LibO. I'd like it to include basic image cropping, saving in different formats, and simple editing, similar to what Preview in Mac OS X provides. Outside of MS Paint, which isn't powerful enough, there's no pre-installed tool for Windows users to manage these functions--thus an opening for LibO to step in and fill this user need. (How many times have you received Word docs that just contain a pasted image, because they have no other way to save the file? This happens to me in business settings frequently.) -Ben Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com 646-464-2314 (Eastern) www.solidoffice.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: Inkscape vs. Draw (was: Re: [tdf-discuss] Apply button)
On Nov 16, 2010, at 5:36 PM, Ian Lynch wrote: > Think this has lost the plot :-) The argument was not necessarily to replace > Draw with Inkscape but to learn from it. Excellent--this is what I was hoping we were collectively thinking in this discussion. Using successful attributes of Inkscape as inspiration for improvements to Draw is a great approach, since it has faced and solved many of the same problems. -Ben Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com 646-464-2314 (Eastern) www.solidoffice.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: Inkscape vs. Draw (was: Re: [tdf-discuss] Apply button)
On 16 November 2010 20:12, Benjamin Horst wrote: > On Nov 15, 2010, at 8:22 AM, RGB ES wrote: > > 2010/11/15 Ian Lynch : > >> The point is that for me Inkscape is more usable and if there was an > option > >> to replace Draw with it in LO/OOo I'd take that option. Clumsy > >> non-multi-tasking dialogues are just one of many issues. I guess if a > long > >> time supporter of OOo like me is saying this many others would too, so > >> rather than trying to justify Draw's shortcomings we need to work out > how to > >> prioritise improvements to Draw and learn from applications that do it > >> better. > >> -- > >> Ian > > > > I use Draw only for simply diagrams, for complex stuff I use Inkscape > > or (maybe, I'm starting the tests with it) karbon14. > > The main shortcoming of Inkscape is for Mac users, where it requires the > X11 windowing system. It's workable, but awkward, and not widely understood > by mainstream users. Think this has lost the plot :-) The argument was not necessarily to replace Draw with Inkscape but to learn from it. > -Ben > > Benjamin Horst > bho...@mac.com > 646-464-2314 (Eastern) > www.solidoffice.com > > > -- > Unsubscribe instructions: Email to > discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org > Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html > Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ > *** All posts to this list are publicly archived *** > > -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications The Schools ITQwww.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 You have received this email from the following company: The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: Inkscape vs. Draw (was: Re: [tdf-discuss] Apply button)
- Original Message > From: Benjamin Horst > On Nov 15, 2010, at 8:22 AM, RGB ES wrote: > > 2010/11/15 Ian Lynch : > >> The point is that for me Inkscape is more usable and if there was an >option > >> to replace Draw with it in LO/OOo I'd take that option. Clumsy > >> non-multi-tasking dialogues are just one of many issues. I guess if a long > >> time supporter of OOo like me is saying this many others would too, so > >> rather than trying to justify Draw's shortcomings we need to work out how >to > >> prioritise improvements to Draw and learn from applications that do it > >> better. > >> -- > >> Ian > > > > I use Draw only for simply diagrams, for complex stuff I use Inkscape > > or (maybe, I'm starting the tests with it) karbon14. > > The main shortcoming of Inkscape is for Mac users, where it requires the X11 >windowing system. It's workable, but awkward, and not widely understood by >mainstream users. > > It's other short-coming is that it's a do-one-thing-and-do-it-well piece of software. It won't replace a Bitmap editor, which is very useful for creating new artwork and getting the shading right. Yes, it does vector graphics and uses SVG. It's entirely designed around SVG. Yes, you can probably export to other formats (been a while since I tried, though I know at least PNG can be exported to). But that doesn't resolve the need for doing coloration, etc in the way a bitmap editor can do it - which is the antithesis of InkScape. There are strengths and weaknesses to both - and yes, InkScape does a great job at what it does. (I do love using it, and it's far far easier to use than GIMP.) But a suite like LibO needs both sides of the functionality. $0.02 Ben -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: Inkscape vs. Draw (was: Re: [tdf-discuss] Apply button)
On Nov 15, 2010, at 8:22 AM, RGB ES wrote: > 2010/11/15 Ian Lynch : >> The point is that for me Inkscape is more usable and if there was an option >> to replace Draw with it in LO/OOo I'd take that option. Clumsy >> non-multi-tasking dialogues are just one of many issues. I guess if a long >> time supporter of OOo like me is saying this many others would too, so >> rather than trying to justify Draw's shortcomings we need to work out how to >> prioritise improvements to Draw and learn from applications that do it >> better. >> -- >> Ian > > I use Draw only for simply diagrams, for complex stuff I use Inkscape > or (maybe, I'm starting the tests with it) karbon14. The main shortcoming of Inkscape is for Mac users, where it requires the X11 windowing system. It's workable, but awkward, and not widely understood by mainstream users. -Ben Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com 646-464-2314 (Eastern) www.solidoffice.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: Inkscape vs. Draw (was: Re: [tdf-discuss] Apply button)
2010/11/15 Ian Lynch : > The point is that for me Inkscape is more usable and if there was an option > to replace Draw with it in LO/OOo I'd take that option. Clumsy > non-multi-tasking dialogues are just one of many issues. I guess if a long > time supporter of OOo like me is saying this many others would too, so > rather than trying to justify Draw's shortcomings we need to work out how to > prioritise improvements to Draw and learn from applications that do it > better. > -- > Ian I use Draw only for simply diagrams, for complex stuff I use Inkscape or (maybe, I'm starting the tests with it) karbon14. -- Ricardo -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: Inkscape vs. Draw (was: Re: [tdf-discuss] Apply button)
> > > > Inkscape is used by kids in primary schools so the argument about > > professional designers doesn't really hold water - I use it on a netbook! > So > > why not have docked panes in Draw? If it works well offer it. > > Simple. Because the topic wasn't about docked panes, but about the > transformation dialog. > You brought up docked panes, not me ;-) And, "used" varies. If we compare functionality, then it should be > compared on a given use case. Take most use cases and Inkscape will win. > I agree that Inkscape is a great tool and > much more handy for kids - in my point of view, because simple things > like like moving objects, drag-and-drop, ... works better. > > But, to be efficient within complex graphics, the task pane of Inkscape > just "grabs" a lot of space (which then has to be scrolled, or you have > to undock it and move it around, ...). Fortunately, in our case, > position control is given via the toolbars - not only via the task pane. > Which is a whole lot less user friendly, whether it is a professional graphics designer or a school kid. > > By the way, Christian Lippka offered a nice "private" teaser some weeks > ago. This is about how the layout might work for such task panes: > http://lippka.com/teaser.png > > However, the original discussion was about avoiding iterative > opening/closing the position dialog. And the given proposal was to - > first - improve the positioning first. > The point is that for me Inkscape is more usable and if there was an option to replace Draw with it in LO/OOo I'd take that option. Clumsy non-multi-tasking dialogues are just one of many issues. I guess if a long time supporter of OOo like me is saying this many others would too, so rather than trying to justify Draw's shortcomings we need to work out how to prioritise improvements to Draw and learn from applications that do it better. -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications The Schools ITQwww.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 You have received this email from the following company: The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Inkscape vs. Draw (was: Re: [tdf-discuss] Apply button)
Hi Ian, just a few thoughts ... some other topics made my spare time reserve disappear :-) Am Sonntag, den 14.11.2010, 20:30 + schrieb Ian Lynch: > > >From my point-of-view, this is different. Inkscape is a graphic tool > > that is used by experienced designers. We may assume that those guys do > > have better hardware (e.g. larger screens). And, Inkscape does have > > another concept with docked panes ... > > > Inkscape is used by kids in primary schools so the argument about > professional designers doesn't really hold water - I use it on a netbook! So > why not have docked panes in Draw? If it works well offer it. Simple. Because the topic wasn't about docked panes, but about the transformation dialog. And, "used" varies. If we compare functionality, then it should be compared on a given use case. I agree that Inkscape is a great tool and much more handy for kids - in my point of view, because simple things like like moving objects, drag-and-drop, ... works better. But, to be efficient within complex graphics, the task pane of Inkscape just "grabs" a lot of space (which then has to be scrolled, or you have to undock it and move it around, ...). Fortunately, in our case, position control is given via the toolbars - not only via the task pane. By the way, Christian Lippka offered a nice "private" teaser some weeks ago. This is about how the layout might work for such task panes: http://lippka.com/teaser.png However, the original discussion was about avoiding iterative opening/closing the position dialog. And the given proposal was to - first - improve the positioning first. > We - in contrast - develop an office suite that also targets other > > "markets" like developing countries. Although the minimum system > > requirements state "1024x768", the design for OOo still targets netbook > > resolutions. If there would have been more space, I would have designed > > the new printing dialog differently :-) > > I don't buy this at all. I use a netbook regularly and I don't see any > advantages in using Draw over inkscape in that environment. Neither are > ideal on that size screen. If you are short of RAM and processor power I'd > say OOo is going to cause you more problems that Inkscape ;-) That's correct. I come back to comparing use cases - I find it very difficult to write longer documents with Inkscape ;-) The point is, the main design (was/is) based on the whole office suite with all the applications. Currently, Draw is more or less a nice addition, because the codebase nearly identical with Impress. Sometimes a huge advantage, sometimes not ... [... effort of moving / opening / closing dialogs over and over again ... ] > If you don't have to call it up why is there any manual effort? Just ignore > it exists. [...] Because it (guess *g*) - doesn't help to solve the initially given use case. If you want to precisely move objects, you have to use it. That is a design flaw ... it wouldn't be necessary (that often) if we could improve the resizing and moving behavior. Okay, back to other topics ... or better, back to doing something with Inkscape :-) Cheers, Christoph -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
