Re: [tdf-discuss] [libreoffice-website] [Forum] How will the forum be organized?
Hi Narayan, Michael :-) If you read the various SC meeting minutes objectively, there was never any firm commitment to going over to Drupal. It was, in fact, an openness to re-consider the issue at a later date, and to evaluate a working site alongside specific statements and proof of the advantages that Drupal would bring. The most recent SC meeting re-stated the same openess to that *in the mid-term future*. But it was clearly desired to put an end to what has become a disruptive argument backed up by what has been, IMHO, disruptive disinformation about the SC's stance, in a quest to bulldoze the adoption through. In my own perception, it seemed to be less based on any possible advantages that Drupal could bring to the Web infrastructure, and more a question of forcing a Drupal adoption without any real consideration of technical merits/demerits and TDF's more-urgent needs. In reality, there is a lot of higher priority work to be done. There has been *so* much written in the lists about all this - I think many people are fed up of the subject, and I think it has caused a lot of disharmony that is damaging to the project. Progress will soon be made towards implementing the Community Bylaws and steadily establishing a stable, community-driven governance for the project. Charles Schulz drafted those bylaws, with public discussion during the process on the SC discussion list. IMHO, they are a good model of FOSS project governance, and a sincere effort to apply high ideals of democratic community government within the project. If you guys can show some patience and forebearing in your desires, I think you will have every fair opportunity to fulfill your goal of Drupal adoption at a future date - if you can concretely demonstrate that it is a better choice and truly advantageous for the community, and if you follow the procedures and channels that will be implemented for such purposes. But now is not the right time. Meanwhile, if you are truly interested in getting involved in the project's Web communications, I invite you both to work with me on the subject, and to actually constructively contribute ideas, time and written material as part of a team that has been placed, *as an interim thing*, under my coordination and management. If you can prove that you truly have the project's real interests at heart, and that there is a genuine meritocratic justification, you (and anyone else) have every chance of becoming the website content lead in my stead, with my full support and cooperation, if there is an official decision in that respect by the SC. But you have to win that role by merit and real work that furthers the project's immediate interests and needs. So, I'm laying down a challenge to you: let's stop this damaging, conflictual and time-wasting discussion on the mailing lists, and let's get to work together building superb web content on the SilverStripe site. You will find me an objective, constructive, consensual and cooperative person to work with. My only desire is to see real results as quickly as possible. We can arrange a website content team confcall at an early date and start work. The only condition are that: - We have to stop talking about Drupal at this time, and only think of content and information for the LibreOffice and TDF community on libreoffice.org. - We have to commit to the governance laid down in the Community Bylaws, and be supportive of the SC in *progressively* working towards their implementation within a reasonable timeframe. In the design of the bylaws, there are mechanisms for bringing about change in a fair and viable manner. So, if there are things in them that displease you now, you *will* have the opportunity to work towards change in them in the future. Please, guys, put Drupal out of your mind for the CMS for *at least* 6-9 months - indeed, there are perfectly rational reasons for deciding to stay with SilverStripe as CMS quite far into the future. Maybe it would be a good idea to think laterally and broach the subject of Drupal-powered *forums* with the SC, instead? Meanwhile, remember that there is an opportunity to take part in exciting and interesting mass media communications work. What do you say? :-) I am very keen to work with you, hear your imaginative ideas, and see fruitful results on our SilverStripe-powered CMS, libreoffice.org. :-) David Nelson -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [tdf-discuss] [libreoffice-website] [Forum] How will the forum be organized?
Hi Michael and Christoph, Charles, The work on the Drupal development has halted as per the Steering Committee statement. There seems to be a disconnect between what the community/mailing list groups want and what the Steering Committee is willing to support. From my discussions with the individuals involved with the Drupal development there seems to be a consensus that until the Steering Committee allows the individual community groups some autonomy to make their own decisions and avoids overruling the groups it is unlikely that the development will continue. The vast majority of the website team has been supporting and contributing to this development as it is seen as the 'way forward' but the SC and some founding members have made it clear that this development will not continue. Personally I would like to see 'website team lead(s)' elected within the website team, by the website team and decisions made at a community level upheld without the SC stepping in. If you or others wish to see this development continue, I would suggest that you rally one or more of the SC members to overturn the decisions made at the most recent meeting and allow autonomy within the functional teams. I am truly lost in this maze. So far, we had made good progress, as follows: We identified 23 roles in the LibO ecosystem. The idea was to create an integrated workflow that caters to their needs all. A given team can assume multiple roles. Some roles may be re-assigned later. The website was supposed to have a workflow that allows all roles to work collaboratively. It was also supposed to help any contributor in taking up any role of his choice. The website was also going to integrate internet-based tools for the entire SDLC. In this, we were going to consult the people who are currently playing one or more of the 23 roles. AFAIK, the current SilverStripe website is not being designed with these goals at all. That is why we were talking about developing another website with strategically planned AI. Why is that goal ditched all of a sudden? And what on earth is going on?? Note that the second website has nothing to do with what CMS we should use. Just put aside the perennial arguments about SilverStripe and Drupal for a moment. Regards, Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] [libreoffice-website] [Forum] How will the forum be organized?
Michael Wheatland wrote: On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 11:59 PM, Charles Marcus cmar...@media-brokers.com wrote: Case in point - Michael's work on Drupal would have provided integrated mail list forums nabble so that any user could use their tool of choice, and all would be interconnected, not isolated, making these silly chest-thumping arguments about which tool is better totally moot. Charles, The work on the Drupal development has halted as per the Steering Committee statement. There seems to be a disconnect between what the community/mailing list groups want and what the Steering Committee is willing to support. From my discussions with the individuals involved with the Drupal development there seems to be a consensus that until the Steering Committee allows the individual community groups some autonomy to make their own decisions and avoids overruling the groups it is unlikely that the development will continue. The vast majority of the website team has been supporting and contributing to this development as it is seen as the 'way forward' but the SC and some founding members have made it clear that this development will not continue. Personally I would like to see 'website team lead(s)' elected within the website team, by the website team and decisions made at a community level upheld without the SC stepping in. If you or others wish to see this development continue, I would suggest that you rally one or more of the SC members to overturn the decisions made at the most recent meeting and allow autonomy within the functional teams. Thanks, Michael Wheatland +1 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] [libreoffice-website] [Forum] How will the forum be organized?
Hi RGB ES, *, RGB ES schrieb: It is clear you cannot please everyone: the list of problems you see on forums is almost the same list of problems I usually see on mailing lists... Every communication system have the same merits and defects of the people using it. Nothing more, nothing less. The system can only add tools to easy the work of people using it, Good words.. and the tools you have on forums are for sure more useful that the tools available on mailing lists. What the hell does You make thinking that? They are different - yes but more useful? It again depends on who does what! Example search tool: I personally like to search my locally archived mails (sometimes thousands in one archive) with tools I'm familiar with - sometimes with grep. So grep is more useful than a very limited search on some forum? Nope! It's more useful for *me* beeing familiar with it. And obviously this is one of the strong side of mailinglists: Everyone is free to choose his own means organazing and reading the mails. Not only local means but also reading and writing via nntp-client (gmane), listarchive (mail-archive.com) even in a forum-like UI (nabble). The content is build by the people. Exactly. And there is a point I didn't read up to now (or missed it): Regardless how organized: The success of every volunteer driven support offer is not only low threshold accessibility for people needing help, but also enough meat for the people giving support! That is not only a high rate of questions but also a certain level of knowlage available for themselves! And I know of many of those having that necessary level of knowlegde in one or more areas of LO/OOo which declaired they never will join a forum. That doesn't mean a forum is a evel thing at all. But assumed the above condition is true, it will never be a support offer representing all available knowledge. Admittedly it can complete the support chain - as did the german ooo-forum I know from telling. No clue about the international one. I think the OOo community forum are a good example of how forums can be really useful: lots of difficult problems are solved there and all the volunteers have good knowledge of what they are talking about. Forums are noisy only when moderators do not do they work (move/merge/split threads...). Of course there are a lot of noisy forums out there, but that's a problem with the people, not with the system ;) again - good words ;o)) btw please consider http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html here: http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html#ss2.5 for more clear and efficient communication. :o)) [.. recycled TOFU ..] Gruß/regards -- Friedrich Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/ LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images (german version already started) -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] [libreoffice-website] [Forum] How will the forum be organized?
On 2011-01-17 7:50 AM, Friedrich Strohmaier wrote: Hi RGB ES, *, RGB ES schrieb: It is clear you cannot please everyone: the list of problems you see on forums is almost the same list of problems I usually see on mailing lists... Every communication system have the same merits and defects of the people using it. Nothing more, nothing less. The system can only add tools to easy the work of people using it, Good words.. and the tools you have on forums are for sure more useful that the tools available on mailing lists. What the hell does You make thinking that? They are different - yes but more useful? It again depends on who does what! I'm really becoming more and more dismayed at all of the infighting going on on these lists - it gives me pause that LibO may not be able to survive, if those holding the reins right now are unable or unwilling to make some changes that will smooth the way for those wanting to contribute, without fear that their efforts will all be for naught. Case in point - Michael's work on Drupal would have provided integrated mail list forums nabble so that any user could use their tool of choice, and all would be interconnected, not isolated, making these silly chest-thumping arguments about which tool is better totally moot. -- Best regards, Charles -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] [libreoffice-website] [Forum] How will the forum be organized?
Hi Charles, *, I should never write mails before having the second cup of coffee. Charles Marcus schrieb: On 2011-01-17 7:50 AM, Friedrich Strohmaier wrote: [..] What the hell does You make thinking that? They are different - yes but more useful? It again depends on who does what! I'm really becoming more and more dismayed at all of the infighting going on on these lists - it gives me pause that LibO may not be able Oh, sorry You are totally right! My apologies. to survive, if those holding the reins right now are unable or unwilling to make some changes that will smooth the way for those wanting to contribute, without fear that their efforts will all be for naught. I'll care for more civilized wording in future. Case in point - Michael's work on Drupal would have provided integrated mail list forums nabble so that any user could use their tool of choice, and all would be interconnected, not isolated, making these silly chest-thumping arguments about which tool is better totally moot. Thanks for pointing out. Gruß/regards -- Friedrich Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/ LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images (german version already started) -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] [libreoffice-website] [Forum] How will the forum be organized?
On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 11:59 PM, Charles Marcus cmar...@media-brokers.com wrote: Case in point - Michael's work on Drupal would have provided integrated mail list forums nabble so that any user could use their tool of choice, and all would be interconnected, not isolated, making these silly chest-thumping arguments about which tool is better totally moot. Charles, The work on the Drupal development has halted as per the Steering Committee statement. There seems to be a disconnect between what the community/mailing list groups want and what the Steering Committee is willing to support. From my discussions with the individuals involved with the Drupal development there seems to be a consensus that until the Steering Committee allows the individual community groups some autonomy to make their own decisions and avoids overruling the groups it is unlikely that the development will continue. The vast majority of the website team has been supporting and contributing to this development as it is seen as the 'way forward' but the SC and some founding members have made it clear that this development will not continue. Personally I would like to see 'website team lead(s)' elected within the website team, by the website team and decisions made at a community level upheld without the SC stepping in. If you or others wish to see this development continue, I would suggest that you rally one or more of the SC members to overturn the decisions made at the most recent meeting and allow autonomy within the functional teams. Thanks, Michael Wheatland -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] [libreoffice-website] [Forum] How will the forum be organized?
Hi Michael, *, On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Michael Wheatland mich...@wheatland.com.au wrote: Your average end user will likely never search through mailing list threads, The average end user will not search web-forums either. My personal experience with forums is that they are useless for technical, more complex questions, as most of the times it is clueless people giving advice to other clueless people. Unless you're looking for something obvious, most of the time a thread just lingers around unanswered at all, or the one with the problem writes something like Oh, solved my problem, can be closed and never bothered to state how that person actually solved the problem. Or they are full of useless suggestions that are not even covering the topic. Again, my typical searches may be more challenging than those from the average user, but I just hate all the noise that is in forums. I only use one forum - for a well-seperated hobby. But those forums are dedicated and exceptional in its quality (mainly to the few users it has) - I used another one, but as the product is covered ran out of production, it is idling along. But I never use forums for software to to the lack of quality of the answers therein. If we did provide a user forum, which I believe we should, using a dedicated forum system will provide far more functionality and usability, That's what I've been saying from the very start.. What do others think? Is the forum support option important for trust building and familiarity? What system would we use? The ones that already exist. I absolutely don't see a reason for creating yet another one. I think people agree on that one at least. (and to avoid confusion: No, I don't consider nabble as a forum. Why I personally don't like its's interface, I have no problem with integrating it to the site as it seems technically easy to do) ciao Christian -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] [libreoffice-website] [Forum] How will the forum be organized?
It is clear you cannot please everyone: the list of problems you see on forums is almost the same list of problems I usually see on mailing lists... Every communication system have the same merits and defects of the people using it. Nothing more, nothing less. The system can only add tools to easy the work of people using it, and the tools you have on forums are for sure more useful that the tools available on mailing lists. The content is build by the people. I think the OOo community forum are a good example of how forums can be really useful: lots of difficult problems are solved there and all the volunteers have good knowledge of what they are talking about. Forums are noisy only when moderators do not do they work (move/merge/split threads...). Of course there are a lot of noisy forums out there, but that's a problem with the people, not with the system ;) 2011/1/17 Christian Lohmaier lohmaier+ooofut...@googlemail.com: Hi Michael, *, On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Michael Wheatland mich...@wheatland.com.au wrote: Your average end user will likely never search through mailing list threads, The average end user will not search web-forums either. My personal experience with forums is that they are useless for technical, more complex questions, as most of the times it is clueless people giving advice to other clueless people. Unless you're looking for something obvious, most of the time a thread just lingers around unanswered at all, or the one with the problem writes something like Oh, solved my problem, can be closed and never bothered to state how that person actually solved the problem. Or they are full of useless suggestions that are not even covering the topic. Again, my typical searches may be more challenging than those from the average user, but I just hate all the noise that is in forums. I only use one forum - for a well-seperated hobby. But those forums are dedicated and exceptional in its quality (mainly to the few users it has) - I used another one, but as the product is covered ran out of production, it is idling along. But I never use forums for software to to the lack of quality of the answers therein. If we did provide a user forum, which I believe we should, using a dedicated forum system will provide far more functionality and usability, That's what I've been saying from the very start.. What do others think? Is the forum support option important for trust building and familiarity? What system would we use? The ones that already exist. I absolutely don't see a reason for creating yet another one. I think people agree on that one at least. (and to avoid confusion: No, I don't consider nabble as a forum. Why I personally don't like its's interface, I have no problem with integrating it to the site as it seems technically easy to do) ciao Christian -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] [libreoffice-website] [Forum] How will the forum be organized?
Hi Micheal, Am 10.01.2011 10:36, schrieb Michael Wheatland: What do others think? Is the forum support option important for trust building and familiarity? What system would we use? IMHO: Do not spend a minute on creating yet another forum, but point to the already existing well-proven forums. We do not want to split up knowledge and experience to several forums. Stefan -- LibreOffice - Die Freiheit nehm' ich mir! -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
RE: [tdf-discuss] [libreoffice-website] [Forum] How will the forum be organized?
Hi Michael, In general, I full hare your views. Your average end user will likely never search through mailing list threads, even if they contain exactly the information they are looking for. Exactly! A well presented forum running from a dedicated forum system such as vBulletin or phpBB provides the end user with interface familiarity and branding which builds trust in the brand and community. A BB is much more user-friendly than a mail-list. The following features do not exist in a mail list at all: 1. Conduct precise searches (with search parameters). 2. Split the domain into hierarchical forums, which prevents a mixup of issues. This in turn avoids repeat discussion of the same topic endlessly. 3. It establishes credentials of any user so that a casual visitor instantly knows how much to trust him. (is he a SC member or any other office-holder? How many posts are to his credit?) 4. We can check out a particular user by looking at his posts (genuine helper or trouble-maker?) On the other hand, please check if the selected tool has the facility to read/respond the posts while offline, and then do a rapid sync operation when the internet is available. As I understand it, Silverstripe is a long way behind all the major CMS systems in terms of 3rd party integration, but looking through the forums I have seen that there are a few people who have hacked Silverstripe in order to allow some basic functionality: http://www.silverstripe.org/archive/show/2593 If we did provide a user forum, which I believe we should, using a dedicated forum system will provide far more functionality and usability, as well as regular security updates than we could ever hope to code and maintain ourselves without drawing on resources that could be used for development of LibreOffice. And THAT in turn means we should be using a readymade plugin for Drupal, which will ensure availability of regular updates and well-tested security, as compared to home-grown hacks. Even if the solution is solid today, the same resources may not be available in future; or may lose interest in maintaining this project. What do others think? Is the forum support option important for trust building and familiarity? What system would we use? Since vBulletin is commercial, we should opt for phpBB as Drupal plugin. While I think the forum should be established, I am against setting it up for SilverStripe as well. The reason is simple: It will not be possible to migrate the threads from SilverStripe to Drupal. We should not waste efforts on two fronts. I believe Drupal website should start functioning NOW on production-grade servers in some functional areas which do not need to be closely integrated with other functional areas. For example, BB does not need to be linked to any other area, where as all production-related areas are interrelated). Specifically, we need to think whether any hyperlinks will break later due to migration. -Narayan -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
