Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Charles, *,

Charles Marcus schrieb:
>On 2010-10-01 6:02 PM, Jon Hamkins wrote:

[..]

>> I would be very surprised (and delighted) if they donated the
>> trademark. Based on what they said so far, I consider it unlikely.

>The more I think about it, the more I disagree.

>If Oracle had simply donated the trademark and joined the Foundation,
>I'd have been ok with it, but at this point, with the things they've
>done since buying Sun, I think a clean break is best for the long
> haul.

>So I say farewell, Openoffice.org - and hello, LibreOffice!

I have to second once more! :o))

Gruß/regards
-- 
Friedrich

Ansprechpartner / contact person for the "PrOOo-Box"
german language OpenOffice.org and more on CD/DVD 
http://prooo-box.org 

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

[Sophie Gautier]

Hung
> Sophie,
>
> I think we need to explain why CA/JCA/SCA must be removed to
> make LibreOpen real open on this page.
>
> http://www.documentfoundation.org/faq/
>
Ho yes, you're completely right, would you write one?
Kind regards
Sophie
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

[Charles Marcus]

On 2010-10-02 4:21 AM, Sophie wrote:
>> I don't know if I missed this or not, maybe Sophie could answer
>> this, but, have Go-oo, OxygenOffice, NeoOffice and Symphony express
>> any interest in joining forces with LibreOffice. I also agree that
>> it would be nice if we could all eliminated the duplication.

> Actually only Symphony didn't join yet, the other guys are there.

Great news! Hopefully discussion are or will be taking place soon to
coordinate development efforts...

I must admit I have been very negative of late in my comments/attitude
with respect to Sun/Openoffice.org... I hope that those days are now
behind me... :)

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Charles
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[tdf-discuss] Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

[Dr. Bernhard Dippold]

Hi Nguyen, all,

Nguyen Hung Vu [aka: NVH] wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 1:07 AM, Sophie <
> sophie.gaut...@documentfoundation.org> wrote:
> 
> > That won't be a fork anyway, just the continuation of the community
> > building. We won't change the licence and still use the same sources,
> > only the CA/JCA/SCA is removed.
> 
> 
> Sophie,
> 
> I think we need to explain why CA/JCA/SCA must be removed to
> make LibreOpen real open on this page.
> 
> http://www.documentfoundation.org/faq/
> 
I'd like to start a new thread with FAQ entries. I'm quite sure, we'll find 
some more...

Best regards

Bernhard



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Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

[Charles Marcus]

On 2010-10-01 6:02 PM, Jon Hamkins wrote:
> Together, these strongly hint that Oracle is not planning to donate
> the OOo trademark.



> I would be very surprised (and delighted) if they donated the
> trademark. Based on what they said so far, I consider it unlikely.

The more I think about it, the more I disagree.

If Oracle had simply donated the trademark and joined the Foundation,
I'd have been ok with it, but at this point, with the things they've
done since buying Sun, I think a clean break is best for the long haul.

So I say farewell, Openoffice.org - and hello, LibreOffice!

-- 

Best regards,

Charles
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

[Nguyen Vu Hung]

On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 1:07 AM, Sophie <
sophie.gaut...@documentfoundation.org> wrote:

> That won't be a fork anyway, just the continuation of the community
> building. We won't change the licence and still use the same sources, onl
y
> the CA/JCA/SCA is removed.


Sophie,

I think we need to explain why CA/JCA/SCA must be removed to
make LibreOpen real open on this page.

http://www.documentfoundation.org/faq/

--
Best Regards,
Nguyen Hung Vu [aka: NVH] ( in Vietnamese: Nguyễn Vũ Hưng
 )
vuhung16plus{remo...@gmail.dot.com
, YIM: vuhung16 , Skype:
vuhung16plus
A brief profile: http://www.hn.is.uec.ac.jp/~vuhung/Nguyen.Vu.Hung.html

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

[Christoph Noack]

Hi Sophie, hi Marc!

Am Samstag, den 02.10.2010, 10:21 +0200 schrieb Sophie:
>  > I don't know if I missed this or not, maybe Sophie could answer
> this, 
> but, have Go-oo, OxygenOffice, NeoOffice and Symphony express any 
> interest in joining forces with LibreOffice. I also agree that it
> would 
> be nice if we could all eliminated the duplication.
> 
> Actually only Symphony didn't join yet, the other guys are there. 

As far as I can see it, there is only few cooperation between the former
OpenOffice.org and the IBM Lotus Symphony team. But - this is the good
message - the situation seems to improve in general. Since quite some
time, I see more and more talking on the list and also at conferences
(e.g. the OOoCon). I hope we all are able to improve that in the near
future.

Thus, we may learn from each other ... whether this is how problems are
addressed or whether this may be code. And for those who might not
believe ... there is a minor contribution by my side in Symphony. Based
on discussion between the IBM Lotus Symphony UX Team and the OOo UX
Team ;-)

Cheers,
Christoph

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

[Christoph Noack]

Hi Sophie, hi Marc!

Am Samstag, den 02.10.2010, 10:21 +0200 schrieb Sophie:
>  > I don't know if I missed this or not, maybe Sophie could answer
> this, 
> but, have Go-oo, OxygenOffice, NeoOffice and Symphony express any 
> interest in joining forces with LibreOffice. I also agree that it
> would 
> be nice if we could all eliminated the duplication.
> 
> Actually only Symphony didn't join yet, the other guys are there. 

As far as I can see it, there is only few cooperation between the former
OpenOffice.org and the IBM Lotus Symphony team. But - this is the good
message - the situation seems to improve in general. Since quite some
time, I see more and more talking on the list and also at conferences
(e.g. the OOoCon). I hope we all are able to improve that in the near
future.

Thus, we may learn from each other ... whether this is how problems are
addressed or whether this may be code. And for those who might not
believe ... there is a minor contribution by my side in Symphony. Based
on discussion between the IBM Lotus Symphony UX Team and the OOo UX
Team. The first step :-)

Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

[Marc Paré]

 >>
> I don't know if I missed this or not, maybe Sophie could answer 
this, but, have Go-oo, OxygenOffice, NeoOffice and Symphony express 
any interest in joining forces with LibreOffice. I also agree that it 
would be nice if we could all eliminated the duplication.


Actually only Symphony didn't join yet, the other guys are there.

Kind regards
Sophie
Thanks Sophie, this is all good news all around. I guess it is 
understandable re: Symphony. Hopefully, IBM will help out with a few 
full-time devs for LibreOffice. Now that would also be a nice gesture if 
they would.


Cheers

Marc
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

[Sophie]

Hi Marc, all,
Marc Paré wrote:
>  Le 2010-10-01 16:52, Charles Marcus a écrit :
>> On 2010-10-01 3:12 PM, Jon Hamkins wrote:
>>> The statement from Oracle implies they are keeping the trademark, so I
>>> think we are beyond hope on that point -- they are wishing us farewell
>>> and good luck on our fork, not rejoining us.
>>>
>>> There is one helpful thing about their comment, which is that it came
>>> quickly and we can now all settle on LibreOffice as the longterm 
name --

>>> it will be an actual fork, not a temporary name that may revert back to
>>> OpenOffice.org.
>> One thing I would like to see the Document Foundation undertake is to
>> (or at least try to) organize the other major efforts, like Go-oo,
>> OxygenOffice and NeoOffice - and maybe now even IBM/Lotus Symphony - to
>> eliminate duplication of effort and coordinate patch acceptance, etc.
>>
>> The inclusion of most of go-oo's more stable patches in the first beta
>> release is an excellent first step in this direction, and I hope is only
>> 'shades of things to come' in this area.
>>
>> I'm getting really excited at the possibilities!
>>
> I don't know if I missed this or not, maybe Sophie could answer this, 
but, have Go-oo, OxygenOffice, NeoOffice and Symphony express any 
interest in joining forces with LibreOffice. I also agree that it would 
be nice if we could all eliminated the duplication.


Actually only Symphony didn't join yet, the other guys are there.

Kind regards
Sophie
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

[Sophie]

Hi Alexandro,
Alexandro Colorado wrote:



On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 8:57 AM, Steven Shelton > wrote:



-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Okay, I get what's going on here with the new foundation being
created, but I think the way the announcements are done is a bit
confusing to the average person who is not an "insider" on the project.

Is LibreOffice a new fork of OOo, or is this essentially the same as
when the Mozilla Foundation completely took over the Netscape/Firefox
project? In other words, will new versions of OpenOffice.org continue
to be developed and supported/made available for download at
OpenOffice.org, or is OpenOffice.org (the product) now renamed
LibreOffice, meaning all new development will take place under that
moniker?

And is LibreOffice Beta the same as OpenOffice.org 3.3 Beta 1, but
rebranded? What's the relationship between the two?

This has GOT to be confusing to the average user. I've been fairly
involved in OOo for years, and *I'm* confused about what's happening
here. Can someone clear this up a bit?



The answer depends on oracle participation, the idea was not a fork but 
a indepeendence of the community. If oracle want to work with the 
foundation, we can go back to business as usual as OpenOffice.org.


However if Oracle do not want to give back the brand (which was TM back 
us in the beginning). Then we will jump as fork just yet. So we are 
hesitant to call it a fork since Oracle hasn't send anything official.


That won't be a fork anyway, just the continuation of the community 
building. We won't change the licence and still use the same sources, 
only the CA/JCA/SCA is removed.


Kind regads
Sophie

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

[Marc Paré]

 Le 2010-10-01 16:52, Charles Marcus a écrit :

On 2010-10-01 3:12 PM, Jon Hamkins wrote:

The statement from Oracle implies they are keeping the trademark, so I
think we are beyond hope on that point -- they are wishing us farewell
and good luck on our fork, not rejoining us.

There is one helpful thing about their comment, which is that it came
quickly and we can now all settle on LibreOffice as the longterm name --
it will be an actual fork, not a temporary name that may revert back to
OpenOffice.org.

One thing I would like to see the Document Foundation undertake is to
(or at least try to) organize the other major efforts, like Go-oo,
OxygenOffice and NeoOffice - and maybe now even IBM/Lotus Symphony - to
eliminate duplication of effort and coordinate patch acceptance, etc.

The inclusion of most of go-oo's more stable patches in the first beta
release is an excellent first step in this direction, and I hope is only
'shades of things to come' in this area.

I'm getting really excited at the possibilities!

I don't know if I missed this or not, maybe Sophie could answer this, 
but, have Go-oo, OxygenOffice, NeoOffice and Symphony express any 
interest in joining forces with LibreOffice. I also agree that it would 
be nice if we could all eliminated the duplication.


Marc
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

[Jon Hamkins]

On 10/01/2010 12:30 PM, Bernhard Dippold wrote:
> Jon Hamkins schrieb:
>> On 10/01/2010 11:31 AM, Bernhard Dippold wrote:
>>> Kürti László schrieb:
>>
 I had some short chat with Oracle representatives they are stating
 officially: "Oracle is investing substantial resources in
 OpenOffice.org.  With more than one hundred million users, we
 believe OpenOffice.org is the most advanced, most feature rich open
 source implementation and will strongly encourage the Open Office
 community to continue to contribute through www.openoffice.org.
 However, the beauty of open source is that it can be forked by
 anyone who chooses, as was done today.  Our sincerest goal for Open
 Office is that it become more widely used so if this new foundation
 will help advance Open Office and the Open Document Format we wish
 them the best."

>> Their statement its pretty clear.  They are investing in
>> OpenOffice.org, they will continue to do so, and they invite
>> developers to continue contributing to OpenOffice.org (i.e., not to
>> the fork called LibreOffice).

> Where did you read this statement for the future?

I got it from the first and second sentences:

"Oracle is investing substantial resources in OpenOffice.org."

"[W]e ... strongly encourage the Open Office community to continue to
contribute through www.openoffice.org."

This literally says Oracle will continue to accept community
support for OpenOffice.org in the way that it has to the present, and
Oracle itself is investing in OpenOffice.org.  One can reasonably
conclude that Oracle itself will continue to work on OpenOffice.org in
the future -- otherwise why would they tout that Oracle "is investing"
in it now?

A natural consequence of Oracle continuing to invest in OpenOffice.org
is that is that LibreOffice will not get the OpenOffice.org trademark.
I agree, this is not literally stated, but this intrepretation is also
consistent with the facts that:

o There was no direct statement that they would be willing to work with
LibreOffice or the LO community

o What indirect indications there are point in the opposite direction.
The comment "we wish them the best" seems to imply in fact that Oracle
will not be involved -- it's meaning is "good bye"

o The lack of mentioning LO or the foundation by name is consistent with
standard commercial/political practice of not giving a competitor
recognition -- by contrast, most of the supporters on libreoffice.org
mention LO or DF by name.

o The use of the word "fork" -- if they planned to donate the trademark,
they wouldn't view the Document Foundation as a fork, but as a
continuation/evolution of OOo.

Together, these strongly hint that Oracle is not planning to donate the
OOo trademark.

> As you cut off the main part of my message, you don't comment on the 
> difference between "OpenOffice.org" and "Open Office".

Sorry, I just didn't have have anything to comment on that.  I suspect
Oracle probably uses OpenOffice.org and Open Office interchangeably.
That's natural, I suppose, if they want people to use Oracle Open
Office.  For example, they refer to the "Open Office community," which
as you point out doesn't make sense.  The community is the
OpenOffice.org community.

> They surely will continue investing in "Oracle Open Office", their 
> proprietary distribution of OpenOffice.org as they make money of it.
> 
> It might be possible, that they plan to keep investing in 
> OpenOffice.org, but this has not been stated here.

I would be very surprised (and delighted) if they donated the trademark.
Based on what they said so far, I consider it unlikely.

>>> I am not part of the "Open Office Community", but of the "OpenOffice.org
>>> Community".
>>>
>>> Even if I still hope for the trademark to be given back to us, this
>>> message is at least a sign in a dedicated direction. :-(

>> The statement from Oracle implies they are keeping the trademark,[...]

> That's your assumption - and possibly that's what they want us to 
> believe and react.
> 
> And afterwards they can say, that we didn't want the trademark back.

I think the organizers of DF have it right: plan to use the LibreOffice
name, and be very happy to abandon the name if Oracle donates the
OpenOffice.org trademark.  I think it would be a mistake to delay work
on LibreOffice artwork, etc., on the hope that Oracle will come around.
We all want them to, but we shouldn't count on it -- and based on what
they've said so far, I wouldn't expect it from them, either.

> If they are honest in supporting OpenOffice.org, they should show this 
> by giving it back to the community IMHO.

Agreed!

>>  We can no longer claim "XXX million downloads,"
> 
> We still can - we just need to change the wording "further development 
> of the X00 million download suite" 

Good point.

 Jon
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

[Cor Nouws]

Sophie wrote (01-10-10 23:11)

Charles Marcus wrote:


One thing I would like to see the Document Foundation undertake is to
(or at least try to) organize the other major efforts, like Go-oo,
OxygenOffice and NeoOffice - and maybe now even IBM/Lotus Symphony - to
eliminate duplication of effort and coordinate patch acceptance, etc.


This is I think what we would like to offer, may be not only one brand
but a home for each flavour. This is why we moved to no CA/JCA/SCA and
stayed with the LGPLv3.


Well said Sophie. It is one of the main goals of the foundation: a place 
where the mutual interest of all people and companies around 
OpenOffice.org can really come to a impressive multiplier effect.
That is what open source is about (too) and that we like to see happen 
more and more.


Cor

--
 >> free OpenOffice.org : LibreOffice <<

Cor Nouws
  - giving openoffice.org its foundation? The Document Foundation -


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

[Sophie]

Hi Charles,
Charles Marcus wrote:

On 2010-10-01 3:12 PM, Jon Hamkins wrote:

The statement from Oracle implies they are keeping the trademark, so I
think we are beyond hope on that point -- they are wishing us farewell
and good luck on our fork, not rejoining us.

There is one helpful thing about their comment, which is that it came
quickly and we can now all settle on LibreOffice as the longterm name --
it will be an actual fork, not a temporary name that may revert back to
OpenOffice.org.


One thing I would like to see the Document Foundation undertake is to
(or at least try to) organize the other major efforts, like Go-oo,
OxygenOffice and NeoOffice - and maybe now even IBM/Lotus Symphony - to
eliminate duplication of effort and coordinate patch acceptance, etc.


This is I think what we would like to offer, may be not only one brand 
but a home for each flavour. This is why we moved to no CA/JCA/SCA and 
stayed with the LGPLv3.


The inclusion of most of go-oo's more stable patches in the first beta
release is an excellent first step in this direction, and I hope is only
'shades of things to come' in this area.


We need to stay consistent for our users and make sure they don't get 
lost more than necessary: we already change the name, no need to change 
all the interface and the features yet :) Let takes the time to make 
sure they are following the move and then, after a while introduce new 
[visible] things.


I'm getting really excited at the possibilities!


We all are, thanks to all of you :)

Kind regards
Sophie

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

[Terry Warby]

 On 30/09/2010 22:19, Marc Paré wrote:

 Le 2010-09-30 15:32, jonathon a écrit :

On 09/29/2010 05:45 PM, Bernhard Dippold wrote:


If they insist on keeping the trademark given to Sun Microsystems becau

se the community hadn't an entity to claim violations and abuse,

I seriously doubt that Oracle will donate the trademarks to Document
Foundation.

Selling them is a possibility, but the price would probably be for
whatever OOo, as an independent company, would sell for.

As such, all planning should be done on the basis that the project has
been rebranded to LibreOffice.

jonathon


It wouldn't surprise me if Oracle did hand over the "OpenOffice.org" 
trademark name. They will no doubt have been on this mailist and seen 
how many of the localization teams have moved to the LibreOffice 
group. I don't think that this change in direction was a big surprise 
to them as it wasn't for the "OpenOffice.org" community. It would be 
in their interest as corporate citizens to establish good will with 
the "OpenOffice.org" community, and, as the LibreOffice is happening 
with or without the "OpenOffice.org" name, the game to them is lost. 
It's just a matter of clearing all liabilities from their end of their 
business model and joining the Document Foundation project along with 
everyone else. I don't think that there is any animosity between the 
group, we should all be thankful that Sun bought and delivered the 
code to OSS regardless of how they may or may not have run the "code" 
approval system. Just imagine the pre-StarOffice days, when the only 
real word processor in town was MSOffice and Wordperfect had been 
decimated by its competitor. Without Sun's generosity, we would not 
now be in a position to create a foundation based on an OSS office suite.


So, "hats off" and congratulations first of all to Sun Microsystems 
who gave us this wonderful piece of software,  and hopefully, "hats 
off" with congratulations and upmost of thanks to Oracle for helping 
us with the transition from being under the safety of a corporate 
umbrella to a document foundation based on OSS and the sharing of 
code. Oracle/Sun would then be remembered as a darling corporation who 
helped foster OSS adoption. With a little luck, Oracle could offer 
support for the Document Foundation with seed money and hardware 
facilities/support until the foundation's business model is put into 
work and able to stand on its own financially. This is what happened 
to Mozilla when it first set out on its own.


Hopefully, the LibreOffice will be only a temporary and brief episode 
and the "OpenOffice.org" brand will live on along with the great 
community that it has always had. Let's keep the lines of 
communication open and remain positive.


Cheers

Marc

First, let me congratulate all those that have taken this initiative.

As a long time "lurker" and (very) occasional contributor to the OOo 
users list and a user of OOo for the past seven or eight years, I 
welcome the chance to be a (small) part of this community led project. 
Like others, I really hope that Oracle do hand over name and branding of 
OpenOffice.org. It has a fantastic reputation and user base and being 
able to use it will help to consolidate the new Foundation when formally 
established. However, I think that we have to be realistic. Oracle are 
in business to make money. Software and hardware are just their means to 
do it. Oracle have already re-branded Star Office as Oracle OpenOffice. 
Unless they see a real commercial advantage in doing so, they will not 
pass on the name and branding. They already see FLOSS as detracting from 
their commercial interests and being in competition with them. Why else 
would they cease development of Open Solaris? I think that until the 
Document Foundation actually has the OpenOffice.org name and trademark 
in its hands, we have to operate on the basis that the name and further 
development of OpenOffice.org will only be on the basis of supporting 
Oracle's commercial offerings.


I hope this doesn't seem to gloomy a view. Its not meant to be. On the 
contrary, I am extremely optimistic for the future of LibreOffice.


Many thanks to all those involved in this initiative.

Terry W
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

[Charles Marcus]

On 2010-10-01 3:12 PM, Jon Hamkins wrote:
> The statement from Oracle implies they are keeping the trademark, so I
> think we are beyond hope on that point -- they are wishing us farewell
> and good luck on our fork, not rejoining us.
> 
> There is one helpful thing about their comment, which is that it came
> quickly and we can now all settle on LibreOffice as the longterm name --
> it will be an actual fork, not a temporary name that may revert back to
> OpenOffice.org.

One thing I would like to see the Document Foundation undertake is to
(or at least try to) organize the other major efforts, like Go-oo,
OxygenOffice and NeoOffice - and maybe now even IBM/Lotus Symphony - to
eliminate duplication of effort and coordinate patch acceptance, etc.

The inclusion of most of go-oo's more stable patches in the first beta
release is an excellent first step in this direction, and I hope is only
'shades of things to come' in this area.

I'm getting really excited at the possibilities!

-- 

Best regards,

Charles
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Sophie, *,

Sophie schrieb:
>Carolina Flores Hine wrote:

[..]

>> So, of course, the scenario will be better if Oracle gives the
>> trademark to the community, but if we have to wait a month for that
>> to happen, the situation will still be complicated. In that case, it
>> may be better if we start positioning LibreOffice now because in two
>> months, it may be too late.

>> Of course, we decided to wait for your guidances but we want to make
>> sure you are thinking about the consequences of waiting for the
>> trademark .

>We are well aware of this marketing issue and more, the lack of
>confidence it can bring to our users. We won't wait a long time

What do You (and the steering team?) expect from comunicating a waiting
period?

>From my point of view doing so, only can end in one result:
A shot in the own foot.

What, if You comunicate a period of let's say 5 days and Oracle acts at
6th day? You show Your tongue and say "to late"?. I think it's a good
idea to communicate beeing prepared to talk at any time.  There will be
a point, where it is too late to stop the train. And if Oracle wants to
save the value of "Oracle Open Office" as a near relative of good
branded "OpenOffice.org" than *they* have to catch the train. *They*
have to hurry up. *They* will loose if they miss it.

If they aren't aware of that, every minute even to think on further
waiting is lost time for us. Not to forget the signal sent: We *almost*
trust our idea and our work started to be good. ;o))

>and
>meanwhile we will continue to work on the foundation settlement and
>the quality of the version we want to deliver.
>We need to show to the world what we are able to do and the quality we
>aim, and we are going to do it :)

+1

>> Thanks a lot for doing what some of us only dared to dream: building
>> a home for OpenOffice.

same from my part.

>Thanks a lot for being there, without the community, a dream would
> stay a dream !

impressing to notice the activity and the fresh breath. :o))

Gruß/regards
--
Friedrich

Ansprechpartner / contact person for the "PrOOo-Box"
german language OpenOffice.org and more on CD/DVD
http://prooo-box.org

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Bernhard, *,

2010/10/1 Bernhard Dippold :
> Jon Hamkins schrieb:
>> On 10/01/2010 11:31 AM, Bernhard Dippold wrote:
>>> Kürti László schrieb:
>> [...]
>
> It might be possible, that they plan to keep investing in OpenOffice.org,
> but this has not been stated here.

..and not to mention that if Oracle hands over the Trademark, The
Document Foundation will not be providing a different LibreOffice, but
will happily continue under the name OpenOffice.org

So when Oracle continues activities for OpenOffice.org, they'll be
supportive of the foundation in this case.

So nothing's final yet IMHO. All depends on whether Oracle is willing
to hand over the trademark or not.
But as Oracle did not state their intentions yet, everything is just
speculating.
And you can always turn a rather vague statement into everything you
want to make it read.

ciao
Christian
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

[Bernhard Dippold]

Hi Jon,

Jon Hamkins schrieb:

On 10/01/2010 11:31 AM, Bernhard Dippold wrote:

Kürti László schrieb:




I had some short chat with Oracle representatives they are stating official
ly:
""Oracle is investing substantial resources in OpenOffice.org.  With more
than one hundred million users, we believe OpenOffice.org is the most
advanced, most feature rich open source implementation and will strongly
encourage the Open Office community to continue to contribute through
www.openoffice.org.  However, the beauty of open source is that it can
be forked by anyone who chooses, as was done today.  Our sincerest goal
for Open Office is that it become more widely used so if this new
foundation will help advance Open Office and the Open Document Format we
wish them the best.""


This reaction from Oracle is also reported at:
http://www.crn.com/news/applications-os/227500950/openoffice-developers-split-from-oracle-create-own-organization.htm


In my opinion it means (at this very moment) that there will be OpenOffice.
org and LibreOffice as well.


Not necessarily:

They state:

"Oracle is investing substantials resources in OpenOffice.org"

I don't know if they mean the product (developers) or the community
(infrastructure) in this point


Their statement its pretty clear.  They are investing in OpenOffice.org,
they will continue to do so, and they invite developers to continue
contributing to OpenOffice.org (i.e., not to the fork called LibreOffice).


Where did you read this statement for the future?

As you cut off the main part of my message, you don't comment on the 
difference between "OpenOffice.org" and "Open Office".


They surely will continue investing in "Oracle Open Office", their 
proprietary distribution of OpenOffice.org as they make money of it.


It might be possible, that they plan to keep investing in 
OpenOffice.org, but this has not been stated here.



I am not part of the "Open Office Community", but of the "OpenOffice.org
Community".

Even if I still hope for the trademark to be given back to us, this
message is at least a sign in a dedicated direction. :-(


The statement from Oracle implies they are keeping the trademark,[...]


That's your assumption - and possibly that's what they want us to 
believe and react.


And afterwards they can say, that we didn't want the trademark back.

It's *our* trademark, handed over to Sun for legal claims reasons (as we 
didn't have a foundation that could take care of them in the past).


If they are honest in supporting OpenOffice.org, they should show this 
by giving it back to the community IMHO.




[...]   It's a big problem, because LibreOffice needs to
start from scratch in building name recognition and overcoming
confusion.


That's right - there are some FAQ already on the website, where we 
should point people to:

http://www.documentfoundation.org/faq/


 We can no longer claim "XXX million downloads,"


We still can - we just need to change the wording "further development 
of the X00 million download suite" 



and since
Oracle will still be developing OpenOffice.org, there will be an
additional burden of explaining the difference between OOo and LO to users.


If they do, this is true...

Best regards

Bernhard
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

[Jon Hamkins]

On 10/01/2010 11:31 AM, Bernhard Dippold wrote:
> Kürti László schrieb:


>> I had some short chat with Oracle representatives they are stating official
>> ly:
>> ""Oracle is investing substantial resources in OpenOffice.org.  With more
>> than one hundred million users, we believe OpenOffice.org is the most
>> advanced, most feature rich open source implementation and will strongly
>> encourage the Open Office community to continue to contribute through
>> www.openoffice.org.  However, the beauty of open source is that it can
>> be forked by anyone who chooses, as was done today.  Our sincerest goal
>> for Open Office is that it become more widely used so if this new
>> foundation will help advance Open Office and the Open Document Format we
>> wish them the best.""

This reaction from Oracle is also reported at:
http://www.crn.com/news/applications-os/227500950/openoffice-developers-split-from-oracle-create-own-organization.htm

>> In my opinion it means (at this very moment) that there will be OpenOffice.
>> org and LibreOffice as well.
> 
> Not necessarily:
> 
> They state:
> 
> "Oracle is investing substantials resources in OpenOffice.org"
> 
> I don't know if they mean the product (developers) or the community 
> (infrastructure) in this point

Their statement its pretty clear.  They are investing in OpenOffice.org,
they will continue to do so, and they invite developers to continue
contributing to OpenOffice.org (i.e., not to the fork called LibreOffice).

> I am not part of the "Open Office Community", but of the "OpenOffice.org 
> Community".
> 
> Even if I still hope for the trademark to be given back to us, this 
> message is at least a sign in a dedicated direction. :-(

The statement from Oracle implies they are keeping the trademark, so I
think we are beyond hope on that point -- they are wishing us farewell
and good luck on our fork, not rejoining us.

There is one helpful thing about their comment, which is that it came
quickly and we can now all settle on LibreOffice as the longterm name --
it will be an actual fork, not a temporary name that may revert back to
OpenOffice.org.

>> I don't think it is a problem, why not, if Oracle wants keep OO.o both coul
>> d developed. We will see if there is real contribution or not.

Yes, it's a problem.  It's a big problem, because LibreOffice needs to
start from scratch in building name recognition and overcoming
confusion.  We can no longer claim "XXX million downloads," and since
Oracle will still be developing OpenOffice.org, there will be an
additional burden of explaining the difference between OOo and LO to users.

 Jon
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

[Erich Christian]

Hi,

Am 01.10.2010 20:31, schrieb Bernhard Dippold:
>> ""Oracle is investing substantial resources in OpenOffice.org.  With more
>> than one hundred million users, we believe OpenOffice.org is the most
>> advanced, most feature rich open source implementation and will strongly
>> encourage the Open Office community to continue to contribute through
>> www.openoffice.org.  However, the beauty of open source is that it can
>> be forked by anyone who chooses, as was done today.  Our sincerest goal
>> for Open Office is that it become more widely used so if this new
>> foundation will help advance Open Office and the Open Document Format we
>> wish them the best.""
>>
>> In my opinion it means (at this very moment) that there will be
>> OpenOffice.org and LibreOffice as well.

> Not necessarily:
> They state:
> "Oracle is investing substantials resources in OpenOffice.org"
> I don't know if they mean the product (developers) or the community
> (infrastructure) in this point, but both is true and has ever been
> appreciated by the volunteer part of our community.
> But further down the line they talk about "Open Office" instead of
> "OpenOffice.org".
> If they did this on purpose (and I have to assume, that the "official
> statement" doesn't include such mistakes), so it has to be interpreted
> as referring to "Oracle Open Office" instead of "OpenOffice.org".
> So what is the "Open Office Community"?
> Reading the statement again, this might mean that the "OpenOffice.org
> Community" should "... encourage the Open Office Community (sic!) to
> continue to contribute through www.openoffice.org."


Bernhard thanks a lot for pointing this out!
(me too tried to drive attention on that on the german list)


> I always worked on improving and furthering OpenOffice.org - not for a
> company's but for our community's sake.
> I am not part of the "Open Office Community", but of the "OpenOffice.org
> Community".
> Even if I still hope for the trademark to be given back to us, this
> message is at least a sign in a dedicated direction. :-(


well said...  ;-)


>> I don't think it is a problem, why not, if Oracle wants keep OO.o both
>> could developed. We will see if there is real contribution or not.

> They will develop Oracle Open Office - about OpenOffice.org's future
> there is nothing written in this statement.

guess why


>> And anyway the OOo name and rights owned by Oracle so we could do
>> nothing.

> We will not wait very long - too much to do and to decide.

Thanks again, "waiting for Godot"  ;-)

cheers
Erich
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

[Bernhard Dippold]

Hi Kürti, all,

Kürti László schrieb:

Hi,
I had some short chat with Oracle representatives they are stating official
ly:
""Oracle is investing substantial resources in OpenOffice.org.  With more
than one hundred million users, we believe OpenOffice.org is the most
advanced, most feature rich open source implementation and will strongly
encourage the Open Office community to continue to contribute through
www.openoffice.org.  However, the beauty of open source is that it can
be forked by anyone who chooses, as was done today.  Our sincerest goal
for Open Office is that it become more widely used so if this new
foundation will help advance Open Office and the Open Document Format we
wish them the best.""

In my opinion it means (at this very moment) that there will be OpenOffice.
org and LibreOffice as well.


Not necessarily:

They state:

"Oracle is investing substantials resources in OpenOffice.org"

I don't know if they mean the product (developers) or the community 
(infrastructure) in this point, but both is true and has ever been 
appreciated by the volunteer part of our community.


But further down the line they talk about "Open Office" instead of 
"OpenOffice.org".


If they did this on purpose (and I have to assume, that the "official 
statement" doesn't include such mistakes), so it has to be interpreted 
as referring to "Oracle Open Office" instead of "OpenOffice.org".


So what is the "Open Office Community"?

Reading the statement again, this might mean that the "OpenOffice.org 
Community" should "... encourage the Open Office Community (sic!) to 
continue to contribute through www.openoffice.org."


I always worked on improving and furthering OpenOffice.org - not for a 
company's but for our community's sake.


I am not part of the "Open Office Community", but of the "OpenOffice.org 
Community".


Even if I still hope for the trademark to be given back to us, this 
message is at least a sign in a dedicated direction. :-(


I don't think it is a problem, why not, if Oracle wants keep OO.o both coul
d developed. We will see if there is real contribution or not.


They will develop Oracle Open Office - about OpenOffice.org's future 
there is nothing written in this statement.


And anyway the OOo name and rights owned by Oracle so we could do nothing.


We will not wait very long - too much to do and to decide.

Best regards

Bernhard
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

[Sophie]

Hi Carolina, all,
Carolina Flores Hine wrote:

On 09/30/2010 03:19 PM, Marc Paré wrote:

 Le 2010-09-30 15:32, jonathon a écrit :

On 09/29/2010 05:45 PM, Bernhard Dippold wrote:


If they insist on keeping the trademark given to Sun Microsystems bec

au

se the community hadn't an entity to claim violations and abuse,

I seriously doubt that Oracle will donate the trademarks to Document
Foundation.

Selling them is a possibility, but the price would probably be for
whatever OOo, as an independent company, would sell for.

As such, all planning should be done on the basis that the project has



been rebranded to LibreOffice.

jonathon


It wouldn't surprise me if Oracle did hand over the "OpenOffice.org" 
trademark name. They will no doubt have been on this mailist and seen 
how many of the localization teams have moved to the LibreOffice 
group. I don't think that this change in direction was a big surprise 
to them as it wasn't for the "OpenOffice.org" community. It would be 
in their interest as corporate citizens to establish good will with 
the "OpenOffice.org" community, and, as the LibreOffice is happening 
with or without the "OpenOffice.org" name, the game to them is lost. 
It's just a matter of clearing all liabilities from their end of their 


business model and joining the Document Foundation project along with 
everyone else. I don't think that there is any animosity between the 
group, we should all be thankful that Sun bought and delivered the 
code to OSS regardless of how they may or may not have run the "code" 
approval system. Just imagine the pre-StarOffice days, when the only 
real word processor in town was MSOffice and Wordperfect had been 
decimated by its competitor. Without Sun's generosity, we would not 
now be in a position to create a foundation based on an OSS office suit

e.


So, "hats off" and congratulations first of all to Sun Microsystems 
who gave us this wonderful piece of software,  and hopefully, "hats 
off" with congratulations and upmost of thanks to Oracle for helping 
us with the transition from being under the safety of a corporate 
umbrella to a document foundation based on OSS and the sharing of 
code. Oracle/Sun would then be remembered as a darling corporation who 


helped foster OSS adoption. With a little luck, Oracle could offer 
support for the Document Foundation with seed money and hardware 
facilities/support until the foundation's business model is put into 
work and able to stand on its own financially. This is what happened 
to Mozilla when it first set out on its own.


Hopefully, the LibreOffice will be only a temporary and brief episode 
and the "OpenOffice.org" brand will live on along with the great 
community that it has always had. Let's keep the lines of 
communication open and remain positive.


Cheers

Marc


I participated in a long discussion about this last night with fellows 
from the Central American community (with some guests from Argentina & 
Colombia) and we shared some ideas:


1. We are all celebrating LibreOffice and we support the project, no 
matter it's trademark name.


2. We are worried about marketing. We know regular users don't 
understand this process and we have been working for a long time 
promoting OpenOffice on  government, universities and other 
institutions. There are  "hostile environments" out there, and this 
great news are kind of bad news for some people (for example Panama, 
where government contracts ask for MSOffice or OpenOffice mentioned as a

trademark).

3. Our great news are confusing and can be used against Free Software, 
if the Document Foundation don't coordinate a communication's strategy. 
We know this project will succeed as a development project but there a 
other areas needed. A fork enhances the most common unfounded fears 
about Free Software: projects are unstable and there's a lack of support.



So, of course, the scenario will be better if Oracle gives the trademark
to the community, but if we have to wait a month for that to happen, the
situation will still be complicated. In that case, it may be better if 
we start positioning LibreOffice now because in two months, it may be 
too late.


Of course, we decided to wait for your guidances but we want to make 
sure you are thinking about the consequences of waiting for the trademark

.


We are well aware of this marketing issue and more, the lack of 
confidence it can bring to our users. We won't wait a long time and 
meanwhile we will continue to work on the foundation settlement and the 
quality of the version we want to deliver.
We need to show to the world what we are able to do and the quality we 
aim, and we are going to do it :)


Thanks a lot for doing what some of us only dared to dream: building a 
home for OpenOffice.


Thanks a lot for being there, without the community, a dream would stay 
a dream !


Kind regards
Sophie


Carolina



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Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

[Kürti László]

Hi,
I had some short chat with Oracle representatives they are stating official
ly:
""Oracle is investing substantial resources in OpenOffice.org.  With more
than one hundred million users, we believe OpenOffice.org is the most
advanced, most feature rich open source implementation and will strongly
encourage the Open Office community to continue to contribute through
www.openoffice.org.  However, the beauty of open source is that it can
be forked by anyone who chooses, as was done today.  Our sincerest goal
for Open Office is that it become more widely used so if this new
foundation will help advance Open Office and the Open Document Format we
wish them the best.""

In my opinion it means (at this very moment) that there will be OpenOffice.
org and LibreOffice as well.

I don't think it is a problem, why not, if Oracle wants keep OO.o both coul
d developed. We will see if there is real contribution or not.

And anyway the OOo name and rights owned by Oracle so we could do nothing.

--
Kürti László
Open SKM Agency Kft.
1024 Budapest Kút u. 5
www.openskm.com
kurti.las...@openskm.com
(+36-1)-788-6556

- Original Message -
From: "Marc Paré" 
To: discuss@documentfoundation.org
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 11:19:21 PM
Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

  Le 2010-09-30 15:32, jonathon a écrit :
> On 09/29/2010 05:45 PM, Bernhard Dippold wrote:
>
>> If they insist on keeping the trademark given to Sun Microsystems becau
> se the community hadn't an entity to claim violations and abuse,
>
> I seriously doubt that Oracle will donate the trademarks to Document
> Foundation.
>
> Selling them is a possibility, but the price would probably be for
> whatever OOo, as an independent company, would sell for.
>
> As such, all planning should be done on the basis that the project has
> been rebranded to LibreOffice.
>
> jonathon

It wouldn't surprise me if Oracle did hand over the "OpenOffice.org"
trademark name. They will no doubt have been on this mailist and seen
how many of the localization teams have moved to the LibreOffice group.
I don't think that this change in direction was a big surprise to them
as it wasn't for the "OpenOffice.org" community. It would be in their
interest as corporate citizens to establish good will with the
"OpenOffice.org" community, and, as the LibreOffice is happening with or
without the "OpenOffice.org" name, the game to them is lost. It's just a
matter of clearing all liabilities from their end of their business
model and joining the Document Foundation project along with everyone
else. I don't think that there is any animosity between the group, we
should all be thankful that Sun bought and delivered the code to OSS
regardless of how they may or may not have run the "code" approval
system. Just imagine the pre-StarOffice days, when the only real word
processor in town was MSOffice and Wordperfect had been decimated by its
competitor. Without Sun's generosity, we would not now be in a position
to create a foundation based on an OSS office suite.

So, "hats off" and congratulations first of all to Sun Microsystems who
gave us this wonderful piece of software,  and hopefully, "hats off"
with congratulations and upmost of thanks to Oracle for helping us with
the transition from being under the safety of a corporate umbrella to a
document foundation based on OSS and the sharing of code. Oracle/Sun
would then be remembered as a darling corporation who helped foster OSS
adoption. With a little luck, Oracle could offer support for the
Document Foundation with seed money and hardware facilities/support
until the foundation's business model is put into work and able to stand
on its own financially. This is what happened to Mozilla when it first
set out on its own.

Hopefully, the LibreOffice will be only a temporary and brief episode
and the "OpenOffice.org" brand will live on along with the great
community that it has always had. Let's keep the lines of communication
open and remain positive.

Cheers

Marc
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

[csol...@gmail.com]

2010/9/30 Nancy Ward 

> ?
>
> From: Jon Hamkins
> Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 2:03 PM
> To: discuss@documentfoundation.org
> Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?
>
>
> On 09/29/2010 10:45 AM, Bernhard Dippold wrote:
>
> Not that LibreOffice as a name doesn't have its own problems.  Libre is
> pronounced differently in Spanish and French, I'm told, and the word is
> a struggle for Americans.  But what's done is done.  Now is the time for
> everyone to get behind the new name.
>
> Jon
>
> ::
> Since I grew up to the ripe old age of 7 in the Rio Grande Valley of
> South Texas, some of the spanish I learned has stuck, especially the bad
> words.
>
> I don't understand why, but Libre to me says Liberty. I would pronounce
> it Leebreh, which is probably totally wrong. I was surprised when
> someone said that Libre means free.
>
1. Yes, in Spanish it IS pronounced (sorta) like that.
2. Liberty and Libre come from the same Latin root.
3. Richard Stallman loves that Spanish has a distinction between "free
speech" ("discurso libre") and "free beer" ("cerveza gratis"). And I do too
.
That's exactly why the new project was rebranded LibreOffice, and I honestl
y
would stick with the name even if Oracle returned the trademark to the
community.

> --
> Nancy Ward
> Windows 8 Beta Ferret
> --
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> discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org
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> deleted.
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>
>
- Carlos Solís

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

[Nancy Ward]

?

From: Jon Hamkins
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 2:03 PM
To: discuss@documentfoundation.org
Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?


On 09/29/2010 10:45 AM, Bernhard Dippold wrote:

Not that LibreOffice as a name doesn't have its own problems.  Libre is
pronounced differently in Spanish and French, I'm told, and the word is
a struggle for Americans.  But what's done is done.  Now is the time for
everyone to get behind the new name.

 Jon

::
Since I grew up to the ripe old age of 7 in the Rio Grande Valley of
South Texas, some of the spanish I learned has stuck, especially the bad
words.

I don't understand why, but Libre to me says Liberty. I would pronounce
it Leebreh, which is probably totally wrong. I was surprised when
someone said that Libre means free.
--
Nancy Ward
Windows 8 Beta Ferret
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

[Antón Méixome]

+1

I'm Anton Méixome, from Galician NLC.

We are expectant about the procedure, schedule and details of the
workflow to be held in Document Foundation / LibreOffice.

I would draw attention to the need for this "reunification" be
especially careful and clear as to the continuity of the work about
localization.
It would be very frustrating division into 2 groups in many cases.
OpenOffice community has many more relevant aspects of code
development, much as this is vital.

As coordinator of the Galician location I welcome this initiative and
I trust the responsibility of both the new Foundation and Oracle in
this new stage.

Antón


2010/10/1 Marc Paré :
>
>> 1. We are all celebrating LibreOffice and we support the project, no
>> matter it's trademark name.
>>
>> 2. We are worried about marketing. We know regular users don't understan
d
>> this process and we have been working for a long time promoting OpenOffi
ce
>> on  government, universities and other institutions. There are  "hos
tile
>> environments" out there, and this great news are kind of bad news for so
me
>> people (for example Panama, where government contracts ask for MSOffice
or
>> OpenOffice mentioned as a
>> trademark).
>>
>> 3. Our great news are confusing and can be used against Free Software, i
f
>> the Document Foundation don't coordinate a communication's strategy. We
know
>> this project will succeed as a development project but there a other are
as
>> needed. A fork enhances the most common unfounded fears about Free Softw
are:
>> projects are unstable and there's a lack of support.
>>
>>
>> So, of course, the scenario will be better if Oracle gives the trademark
>> to the community, but if we have to wait a month for that to happen, the
>> situation will still be complicated. In that case, it may be better if w
e
>> start positioning LibreOffice now because in two months, it may be too l
ate.
>>
>> Of course, we decided to wait for your guidances but we want to make sur
e
>> you are thinking about the consequences of waiting for the trademark
>> .
>>
>> Thanks a lot for doing what some of us only dared to dream: building a
>> home for OpenOffice.
>>
>> Carolina
>>
> Hola Carolina:
>
> I agree with you 100%. I would not wait for Oracle to make its mind up. W
e
> should go about organizing LibreOffice as if there will be no trademark
> transfer. The LibreOffice is more than just a small group of people who h
ave
> moved on from the OpenOffice.org suite, if we don't take the Document
> Foundation and LibreOffice seriously now, then it would be hard to gain
> everyone else's respect later. The fact that so many high ranking Ooo peo
ple
> have joined on the Ooo shift from Oracle/Sun's shadow is a deliberate act
ion
> that has been noticed from everyone. I have already notified my schoolboa
rd
> IT of the "temporary fork" and that the OpenOffice team may either come b
ack
> as the same Ooo group but having gained their trademarked name from Oracl
e
> or under the name of LibreOffice. As long as the communication lines with
> the general public is kept open, in my opinion, there should be no proble
m
> with branding the suite as LibreOffice. Note that we try to promote the O
oo
> at my school board as an alternative to MSOffice and I use it to teach in
 my
> classes as much as I can. If we all did this, maybe this too could help
> "nudge" Oracle in deciding of the name transfer.
>
> Marc
> --
> To unsubscribe, send an empty e-mail to
> discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org
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> deleted.
> List archives are available at
> http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/
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>



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Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

[Marc Paré]

1. We are all celebrating LibreOffice and we support the project, no 
matter it's trademark name.


2. We are worried about marketing. We know regular users don't 
understand this process and we have been working for a long time 
promoting OpenOffice on  government, universities and other 
institutions. There are  "hostile environments" out there, and this 
great news are kind of bad news for some people (for example Panama, 
where government contracts ask for MSOffice or OpenOffice mentioned as a

trademark).

3. Our great news are confusing and can be used against Free Software, 
if the Document Foundation don't coordinate a communication's 
strategy. We know this project will succeed as a development project 
but there a other areas needed. A fork enhances the most common 
unfounded fears about Free Software: projects are unstable and there's 
a lack of support.



So, of course, the scenario will be better if Oracle gives the trademark
to the community, but if we have to wait a month for that to happen, the
situation will still be complicated. In that case, it may be better if 
we start positioning LibreOffice now because in two months, it may be 
too late.


Of course, we decided to wait for your guidances but we want to make 
sure you are thinking about the consequences of waiting for the trademark

.

Thanks a lot for doing what some of us only dared to dream: building a 
home for OpenOffice.


Carolina


Hola Carolina:

I agree with you 100%. I would not wait for Oracle to make its mind up. 
We should go about organizing LibreOffice as if there will be no 
trademark transfer. The LibreOffice is more than just a small group of 
people who have moved on from the OpenOffice.org suite, if we don't take 
the Document Foundation and LibreOffice seriously now, then it would be 
hard to gain everyone else's respect later. The fact that so many high 
ranking Ooo people have joined on the Ooo shift from Oracle/Sun's shadow 
is a deliberate action that has been noticed from everyone. I have 
already notified my schoolboard IT of the "temporary fork" and that the 
OpenOffice team may either come back as the same Ooo group but having 
gained their trademarked name from Oracle or under the name of 
LibreOffice. As long as the communication lines with the general public 
is kept open, in my opinion, there should be no problem with branding 
the suite as LibreOffice. Note that we try to promote the Ooo at my 
school board as an alternative to MSOffice and I use it to teach in my 
classes as much as I can. If we all did this, maybe this too could help 
"nudge" Oracle in deciding of the name transfer.


Marc
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

[Lane Lester]

On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 3:03 PM, Jon Hamkins wrote:

> Not that LibreOffice as a name doesn't have its own problems.  Libre is
> pronounced differently in Spanish and French, I'm told, and the word is
> a struggle for Americans.  But what's done is done.  Now is the time for
> everyone to get behind the new name.
>

I, too, think the name is unfortunate in the way it sounds orally.
"OpenOffice" is immediately understood, "LibreOffice" will almost always
have to be spelled or explained after being spoken.

I think many will wonder if the product has some connection with astrology
(Libra).

Lane
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You can have your own website for just $10+10+10!
Click here to visit one of my
sites.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

[Carolina Flores Hine]

On 09/30/2010 03:19 PM, Marc Paré wrote:

 Le 2010-09-30 15:32, jonathon a écrit :

On 09/29/2010 05:45 PM, Bernhard Dippold wrote:


If they insist on keeping the trademark given to Sun Microsystems bec

au

se the community hadn't an entity to claim violations and abuse,

I seriously doubt that Oracle will donate the trademarks to Document
Foundation.

Selling them is a possibility, but the price would probably be for
whatever OOo, as an independent company, would sell for.

As such, all planning should be done on the basis that the project has



been rebranded to LibreOffice.

jonathon


It wouldn't surprise me if Oracle did hand over the "OpenOffice.org"
trademark name. They will no doubt have been on this mailist and seen
how many of the localization teams have moved to the LibreOffice
group. I don't think that this change in direction was a big surprise
to them as it wasn't for the "OpenOffice.org" community. It would be
in their interest as corporate citizens to establish good will with
the "OpenOffice.org" community, and, as the LibreOffice is happening
with or without the "OpenOffice.org" name, the game to them is lost.
It's just a matter of clearing all liabilities from their end of their



business model and joining the Document Foundation project along with
everyone else. I don't think that there is any animosity between the
group, we should all be thankful that Sun bought and delivered the
code to OSS regardless of how they may or may not have run the "code"
approval system. Just imagine the pre-StarOffice days, when the only
real word processor in town was MSOffice and Wordperfect had been
decimated by its competitor. Without Sun's generosity, we would not
now be in a position to create a foundation based on an OSS office suit

e.


So, "hats off" and congratulations first of all to Sun Microsystems
who gave us this wonderful piece of software,  and hopefully, "hats
off" with congratulations and upmost of thanks to Oracle for helping
us with the transition from being under the safety of a corporate
umbrella to a document foundation based on OSS and the sharing of
code. Oracle/Sun would then be remembered as a darling corporation who



helped foster OSS adoption. With a little luck, Oracle could offer
support for the Document Foundation with seed money and hardware
facilities/support until the foundation's business model is put into
work and able to stand on its own financially. This is what happened
to Mozilla when it first set out on its own.

Hopefully, the LibreOffice will be only a temporary and brief episode
and the "OpenOffice.org" brand will live on along with the great
community that it has always had. Let's keep the lines of
communication open and remain positive.

Cheers

Marc


I participated in a long discussion about this last night with fellows
from the Central American community (with some guests from Argentina &
Colombia) and we shared some ideas:

1. We are all celebrating LibreOffice and we support the project, no
matter it's trademark name.

2. We are worried about marketing. We know regular users don't
understand this process and we have been working for a long time
promoting OpenOffice on  government, universities and other
institutions. There are  "hostile environments" out there, and this
great news are kind of bad news for some people (for example Panama,
where government contracts ask for MSOffice or OpenOffice mentioned as a

trademark).

3. Our great news are confusing and can be used against Free Software,
if the Document Foundation don't coordinate a communication's strategy.
We know this project will succeed as a development project but there a
other areas needed. A fork enhances the most common unfounded fears
about Free Software: projects are unstable and there's a lack of support.


So, of course, the scenario will be better if Oracle gives the trademark

to the community, but if we have to wait a month for that to happen, the

situation will still be complicated. In that case, it may be better if
we start positioning LibreOffice now because in two months, it may be
too late.

Of course, we decided to wait for your guidances but we want to make
sure you are thinking about the consequences of waiting for the trademark
.

Thanks a lot for doing what some of us only dared to dream: building a
home for OpenOffice.

Carolina

--


"...all progress depends on the unreasonable man" [and/or women] (George
Bernard Shaw)
http://www.piensalibre.net ¡Software libre para un mundo libre!




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Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

[Marc Paré]

 Le 2010-09-30 15:32, jonathon a écrit :

On 09/29/2010 05:45 PM, Bernhard Dippold wrote:


If they insist on keeping the trademark given to Sun Microsystems becau

se the community hadn't an entity to claim violations and abuse,

I seriously doubt that Oracle will donate the trademarks to Document
Foundation.

Selling them is a possibility, but the price would probably be for
whatever OOo, as an independent company, would sell for.

As such, all planning should be done on the basis that the project has
been rebranded to LibreOffice.

jonathon


It wouldn't surprise me if Oracle did hand over the "OpenOffice.org" 
trademark name. They will no doubt have been on this mailist and seen 
how many of the localization teams have moved to the LibreOffice group. 
I don't think that this change in direction was a big surprise to them 
as it wasn't for the "OpenOffice.org" community. It would be in their 
interest as corporate citizens to establish good will with the 
"OpenOffice.org" community, and, as the LibreOffice is happening with or 
without the "OpenOffice.org" name, the game to them is lost. It's just a 
matter of clearing all liabilities from their end of their business 
model and joining the Document Foundation project along with everyone 
else. I don't think that there is any animosity between the group, we 
should all be thankful that Sun bought and delivered the code to OSS 
regardless of how they may or may not have run the "code" approval 
system. Just imagine the pre-StarOffice days, when the only real word 
processor in town was MSOffice and Wordperfect had been decimated by its 
competitor. Without Sun's generosity, we would not now be in a position 
to create a foundation based on an OSS office suite.


So, "hats off" and congratulations first of all to Sun Microsystems who 
gave us this wonderful piece of software,  and hopefully, "hats off" 
with congratulations and upmost of thanks to Oracle for helping us with 
the transition from being under the safety of a corporate umbrella to a 
document foundation based on OSS and the sharing of code. Oracle/Sun 
would then be remembered as a darling corporation who helped foster OSS 
adoption. With a little luck, Oracle could offer support for the 
Document Foundation with seed money and hardware facilities/support 
until the foundation's business model is put into work and able to stand 
on its own financially. This is what happened to Mozilla when it first 
set out on its own.


Hopefully, the LibreOffice will be only a temporary and brief episode 
and the "OpenOffice.org" brand will live on along with the great 
community that it has always had. Let's keep the lines of communication 
open and remain positive.


Cheers

Marc
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

[Roman Gelbort]

> Not that LibreOffice as a name doesn't have its own problems.  Libre is
> pronounced differently in Spanish and French, I'm told, and the word is
> a struggle for Americans.  But what's done is done.  Now is the time for
> everyone to get behind the new name.
>   

Nice thinking, Jon!

But I add that "libre" speech is widely used in the community through
the acronym FLOSS

-- 
~~~
Prof. Román H. Gelbort
http://www.piensalibre.com.ar

10 años usando OpenOffice.org, libre, gratuito y seguro
~~~

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

[jonathon]

On 09/29/2010 05:45 PM, Bernhard Dippold wrote:

> If they insist on keeping the trademark given to Sun Microsystems becau
se the community hadn't an entity to claim violations and abuse,

I seriously doubt that Oracle will donate the trademarks to Document
Foundation.

Selling them is a possibility, but the price would probably be for
whatever OOo, as an independent company, would sell for.

As such, all planning should be done on the basis that the project has
been rebranded to LibreOffice.

jonathon
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.
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

[Jon Hamkins]

On 09/29/2010 10:45 AM, Bernhard Dippold wrote:

> This depends very much on the reaction of Oracle:
> 
> If they insist on keeping the trademark given to Sun Microsystems 
> because the community hadn't an entity to claim violations and abuse, we 
> will not be able to use our good name OpenOffice.org any more.

That would be unfortunate.  Changing a name is a big loss of identity
that would take work to recover.  On the other hand, LibreOffice does
the advantage that the product name isn't a URL.  One poster on ./
quipped that perhaps the new name should be "OpenOffice.org/index.html".
 That's harsh, but has a kernel of truth -- who hasn't, at one time or
another, had to waste time explaining the issue with OpenOffice vs.
OpenOffice.org?

Not that LibreOffice as a name doesn't have its own problems.  Libre is
pronounced differently in Spanish and French, I'm told, and the word is
a struggle for Americans.  But what's done is done.  Now is the time for
everyone to get behind the new name.

 Jon
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

[Nancy Ward]



From: Jean Hollis Weber
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 1:14 AM
To: discuss@documentfoundation.org
Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?


On Thu, 2010-09-30 at 07:58 +0200, Eric Hoch wrote:

Occasionally that website has hiccups, and some of the links from that
page go to the wrong place (we should get them fixed later today).
Perhaps that's why Nancy said the doco wouldn't download for her today.

A better link is this one:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/OOo3_User_Guides/C
hapters

There you will find PDFs of user guides and individual chapters for OOo.

Jean
--
Jean Hollis Weber
Co-Lead, OpenOffice.org Documentation Project

--
It wasn't the website this time, Jean, but Internet Explorer 9 Beta.

But thanks for the link. I'll file it away for future use.
--
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Windows 8 Beta Ferret
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

[Nancy Ward]

?

From: Eric Hoch
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 12:58 AM
To: discuss@documentfoundation.org
Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?


Hi Nancy,
You'll find some documentation here
<http://documentation.openoffice.org/>. It has the OOo branding but
in essence it's the same product. Maybe there are some additional
features from go-oo.org sources which aren't documented yet but the
vast majority of features are covered if there is a document for
the specific module, features, task.

Eric

::
Hi Eric,

Thank you, Eric. The problem was that Internet Explorer 9 Beta wouldn't
do what it was supposed to do. I had to install Firefox Beta, another
open source app before I could get the docs.
--

Nancy Ward
Windows 8 Beta Ferret

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

[Jean Hollis Weber]

On Thu, 2010-09-30 at 07:58 +0200, Eric Hoch wrote:
> Hi Nancy, 
> Am Wed, 29 Sep 2010 22:42:07 -0500 schrieb Nancy Ward:
> 
> > Although this is the first time in a few years I've tried 
> > Libre(open)Office, it has made strides in the right direction. 
> > Now if I could only get some documentation . . . It wouldn't 
> > download for me today from openoffice.org.
> 
> You'll find some documentation here 
> . It has the OOo branding but 
> in essence it's the same product. Maybe there are some additional 
> features from go-oo.org sources which aren't documented yet but the 
> vast majority of features are covered if there is a document for 
> the specific module, features, task. 

Occasionally that website has hiccups, and some of the links from that
page go to the wrong place (we should get them fixed later today).
Perhaps that's why Nancy said the doco wouldn't download for her today.

A better link is this one:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/OOo3_User_Guides/Chapters

There you will find PDFs of user guides and individual chapters for OOo.

Jean
-- 
Jean Hollis Weber
Co-Lead, OpenOffice.org Documentation Project

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

[Eric Hoch]

Hi Nancy, 
Am Wed, 29 Sep 2010 22:42:07 -0500 schrieb Nancy Ward:

> Although this is the first time in a few years I've tried 
> Libre(open)Office, it has made strides in the right direction. 
> Now if I could only get some documentation . . . It wouldn't 
> download for me today from openoffice.org.

You'll find some documentation here 
. It has the OOo branding but 
in essence it's the same product. Maybe there are some additional 
features from go-oo.org sources which aren't documented yet but the 
vast majority of features are covered if there is a document for 
the specific module, features, task. 

Eric


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## Openoffice.org - ich steck mit drin!
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

[Nancy Ward]

?

From: Steven Shelton 
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2010 8:57 AM
To: discuss@documentfoundation.org 
Subject: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?



And is LibreOffice Beta the same as OpenOffice.org 3.3 Beta 1, but
rebranded? What's the relationship between the two?

This has GOT to be confusing to the average user. I've been fairly
involved in OOo for years, and *I'm* confused about what's happening
here. Can someone clear this up a bit?

Steve, I received the email about The Document Foundation and pretty much 
understood what's going on.  Well, almost. At any rate, I knew that TDF was 
"going out on its own" for whatever the reasoning. Since I like open source 
(which means to me no huge companies steering the rowboat), I decided to jump 
in and download. 

Although this is the first time in a few years I've tried Libre(open)Office, it 
has made strides in the right direction. Now if I could only get some 
documentation . . . It wouldn't download for me today from openoffice.org.

Nancy Ward
Windows 8 Beta Ferret<>

Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

[Bernhard Dippold]

Hi Steven,

great to read you again :-)

Steven Shelton schrieb:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


Is LibreOffice a new fork of OOo, or is this essentially the same as
when the Mozilla Foundation completely took over the Netscape/Firefox
project? In other words, will new versions of OpenOffice.org continue
to be developed and supported/made available for download at
OpenOffice.org, or is OpenOffice.org (the product) now renamed
LibreOffice, meaning all new development will take place under that
moniker?


This depends very much on the reaction of Oracle:

If they insist on keeping the trademark given to Sun Microsystems 
because the community hadn't an entity to claim violations and abuse, we 
will not be able to use our good name OpenOffice.org any more.


In this case we'll have to stick to LibreOffice, what will be a fork, 
because they probably won't allow their developers to code for 
LibreOffice while they try to keep the product alive and damage LibreOffice.


But this would be the public visible action verifying the fear that 
Oracle is much interested in Oracle (Open?) Office, but not in 
contributing to the OpenOffice.org community.


As they didn't announce their decision publicly, it's just an assumption 
to this state of time.


I hope very much that we'll have the chance to keep on working as the 
community we've been in the past, but with more freedom and broader 
support by people and constitutions previously hesitating to contribute 
and donating to a project lead and probably governed by a single company.


And is LibreOffice Beta the same as OpenOffice.org 3.3 Beta 1, but
rebranded? What's the relationship between the two?


I'm not a developer, but I as I've been told, its OOo3.3 Beta with some 
of the most stable Go-oo patches included.


Best regards

Bernhard

... knowing about the problem of different target groups for developer 
and marketing / ux / user base...

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Explanation . . . ?

[Alexandro Colorado]

On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 8:57 AM, Steven Shelton wrote:

>
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Okay, I get what's going on here with the new foundation being
> created, but I think the way the announcements are done is a bit
> confusing to the average person who is not an "insider" on the project.
>
> Is LibreOffice a new fork of OOo, or is this essentially the same as
> when the Mozilla Foundation completely took over the Netscape/Firefox
> project? In other words, will new versions of OpenOffice.org continue
> to be developed and supported/made available for download at
> OpenOffice.org, or is OpenOffice.org (the product) now renamed
> LibreOffice, meaning all new development will take place under that
> moniker?
>
> And is LibreOffice Beta the same as OpenOffice.org 3.3 Beta 1, but
> rebranded? What's the relationship between the two?
>
> This has GOT to be confusing to the average user. I've been fairly
> involved in OOo for years, and *I'm* confused about what's happening
> here. Can someone clear this up a bit?
>


The answer depends on oracle participation, the idea was not a fork but a
indepeendence of the community. If oracle want to work with the foundation,
we can go back to business as usual as OpenOffice.org.

However if Oracle do not want to give back the brand (which was TM back us
in the beginning). Then we will jump as fork just yet. So we are hesitant to
call it a fork since Oracle hasn't send anything official.




>
> (FWIW, this has historically been one of the major roadblocks to
> adoption of more open source software--especially linux--by "regular"
> consumers. The software seems to be designed by and for developers
> because the announcements and documentation are all aimed at the "in
> crowd" who understand what it means to compile, what a "distro" is,
> and what a "fork" is. Joe Sixpack has no way of understanding what
>

Hey you will always have joe sixpacks running around confused regardless of
how clear you can be. I don't think our goal is to eradicate the joe
sixpacks of the world.



> most of the software is, let alone distinguish between versions and
> understand how to install and use the software. If the idea is to make
> open source software more prominent, there has to be a better effort
> on the part of the open source community--for all projects--to be less
> "developer" oriented and to be more "consumer" oriented in
> documentation and promotion.)
>
> - --
> Steven Shelton
> Deputy Undersecretary for Made-up Titles
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAkyjRbcACgkQO+AD2HqgRoBwKQCeJ/EYRJArLml9pmbJP7US/JRN
> ryIAnjW5AROn+Ia5YHK1E2l/lkjfByWw
> =wTx6
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>
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>
>


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*OpenOffice.org* Español
http://es.openoffice.org