Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: The Floppy icon and meritocracy

2012-02-11 Thread v_2e 
  Hello!

On Fri, 10 Feb 2012 06:39:16 -0800 (PST)
Pedro  wrote:
> 
> That is the Galaxy theme from version 3.3.x and 3.4.x (which
> curiously is the only theme included in LibreOfficePortable 3.3.x and
> 3.4.x)
> 
  Oh, so it is called "Galaxy". Thanks for the tip. I thought (for some
unknown reason) you were talking about some other theme. :)

> What I can tell you is that the Galaxy theme is NOT one of the four
> Themes included and that you can't use a Theme from version 3.3.x or
> 3.4.x directly. 
> 
> Only someone in the Design section can answer if there is a tool to
> convert the icon Theme to version 3.5.x...
> 
  But the screenshot I gave a link to is a screenshot of LibreOffice
3.5.0 RC2 (if I'm remember correctly). In any case, it certainly is the
3.5-branch. And this theme was there when I upgraded from 3.4.x to
3.5.0 for the first time. Doesn't it mean that this theme is:
a) working with LO 3.5;
b) is included as a default theme?

  Thank you.
Vladimir

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: The Floppy icon and meritocracy

2012-02-10 Thread v_2e 
  Hello!

On Thu, 9 Feb 2012 14:46:47 -0800 (PST)
Pedro  wrote:
> 
> I already have the floppy :) and I don't particularly like the Galaxy
> theme. Thank you anyway for the suggestion!
> 
  I like this set of Icons I have in LibreOffice right now:
http://wombat.org.ua/LibreOffice-icons.png
and I hope it will be possible to use them in future versions of
LibreOffice. Will it?

  Regards,
Vladimir  

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: The Floppy icon and meritocracy

2012-02-10 Thread 1920119 
> The freedesktop.org Icon Theme Specification defines a 'document-save'
> icon as: "document-save The icon for the save action. Should be an arrow
> pointing down and toward a hard disk."
> 
> The new LO "Tango" theme does not follow this specification, and instead
> uses a non-Tango icon: a down arrow pointing to an open file cabinet drawer

Tango doesn't have a 'save as template' icon anyway, so we couldn't
use it unmodified anyway. (Although I seem to remember reading that
the template icon has been left as a floppy? I did point out this
problem before...)

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: The Floppy icon and meritocracy

2012-02-08 Thread Sveinn í Felli 

Þann mið  8.feb 2012 18:50, skrifaði sophie:

On 08/02/2012 19:41, Pedro wrote:

Sophie Gautier wrote

the size of our community makes it very difficult to
manage the feedback
from our users

That is exactly what I said :)

I accept that it is difficult to have democracy in such a
large community.
My argument is that FOSS is not inherently incompatible
with democracy,
contrary to David's logical demonstration and to Charles'
argumentation.

In any case it would be a futile exercise to "just do" a
Poll since it would
not bind anyone to the results :)

I won't be so pessimistic. Of course, if it's a poll without
any process and defined workflow, I agree with you. But if
before you put an organization in place, it won't be futile
and could bring a lot to the project.



Even though I did forward my 2 cents on the issue, I didn't 
have such a strong opinion on the matter (the usual 5% of 
the users I occationally support will moan, I'm sure).


To me, the case was solved by those who were there - at the 
time it happened - so be it.
Maybe I'm not really bothered because this about a 
(trivial?) thing which then may be overruled/changed in the 
future, when/if there will be a more general policy-decision 
about icon-sets and theming.
And before taking such bigger (democratic) decisions, 
there's a lot of work to do.


Sveinn í Felli


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: The Floppy icon and meritocracy

2012-02-08 Thread sophie 

On 08/02/2012 19:41, Pedro wrote:

Sophie Gautier wrote

the size of our community makes it very difficult to manage the feedback
from our users

That is exactly what I said :)

I accept that it is difficult to have democracy in such a large community.
My argument is that FOSS is not inherently incompatible with democracy,
contrary to David's logical demonstration and to Charles' argumentation.

In any case it would be a futile exercise to "just do" a Poll since it would
not bind anyone to the results :)
I won't be so pessimistic. Of course, if it's a poll without any process 
and defined workflow, I agree with you. But if before you put an 
organization in place, it won't be futile and could bring a lot to the 
project.


Kind regards
Sophie


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: The Floppy icon and meritocracy

2012-02-08 Thread sophie 

Hi Pedro,
On 08/02/2012 18:37, Pedro wrote:

Charles-H.Schulz wrote

You have similar polls in supermarkets. But supermarkets are no
democracies.


Really? Supermarkets make polls for products they do not wish to sell? And
they do accept the shopper's decision?
I have never seen such a supermarket!

Anyway even if the developers aren't "elected" by the users (to have what
you call a democratic structure) it still is pretty close to a democracy and
much more community friendly than meritocracy ;)


I think that nobody in the community would prevent you to organize such 
a poll. If you manage to deal with it from the ux and developer point of 
view, we always valued the broader input we can get.
If you look at what is happening currently for the conditional formating 
dialog,

http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Libreoffice-ux-advise-conditional-format-dialog-td3724185.html
what you want is currently happening.
But (there is always a but ;) the size of our community makes it very 
difficult to manage the feedback from our users. More if you add the 
language communities feedback (for this specific case, I know the FR 
community has been asked for feedback) it's even more complicated to 
collect the thoughts and translate them.
So if you feel that you can manage to organize a communication flow 
between the different actors of the project, I'm really sure that nobody 
will prevent you to do so, on the contrary I'm sure you'll find people 
to support you and help you. It's not democracy still, it's: you want 
it, you do it ;-)


Kind regards
Sophie

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: The Floppy icon and meritocracy

2012-02-08 Thread Davide Dozza 

On 08/02/2012 18:04, Pedro wrote:



I'm not arguing that all those projects that you pointed do not follow the
same logic (I'm not saying this is a TDF / LO exclusive). I'm just showing
you that other FOSS projects can be (and some are!) democratic.


FLOSS == Meritocracy

Meritocracy != Democracy

Democracy != FLOSS

Davide


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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: The Floppy icon and meritocracy

2012-02-08 Thread Charles-H. Schulz 
Le Wed, 8 Feb 2012 09:04:34 -0800 (PST),
Pedro  a écrit :

> Hi again Charles
> 
> 
> Charles-H.Schulz wrote
> > 
> > What this thread says -and I took the time not to just look at
> > the thread but at the other areas of the project as well- is that
> > developers listen to user feedback. And that's probably a good
> > thing to do although some people might disagree (cf. Henry Ford);
> > yet listening to user feedback hardly makes up a democracy. It's
> > user feedback. In some cases it might be a case of "nice customer
> > service". But it does not help that much. I'll explain myself. 
> > 
> 
> Let's see. The developer is asking the community who is using a given
> feature (which he states would prefer to drop). Yet he subjects this
> to an open poll (not even limited to the registered forum users) and
> he is willing to accept the opinion of the majority. If that is not a
> democracy, it's damn close!
> 
> How is that even similar to meritocracy? Meritocracy would be: I'm the
> developer, I don't have time for this so I'm dropping it. If some one
> else wants to keep developing it, just do it.
> 
> I'm not arguing that all those projects that you pointed do not
> follow the same logic (I'm not saying this is a TDF / LO exclusive).
> I'm just showing you that other FOSS projects can be (and some are!)
> democratic.

hmm, then I don't agree with your qualification of democratic. You have
similar polls in supermarkets. But supermarkets are no democracies. A
democracy means a democratic structure, not a consumer/plebeian
feedback process, no matter how effective it is.

best,
-- 
Charles-H. Schulz
Member of the Board of Directors,
The Document Foundation.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: The Floppy icon and meritocracy

2012-02-08 Thread Charles-H. Schulz 
Hi again, 

I forgot the links...

Le Wed, 8 Feb 2012 16:58:17 +0100,
"Charles-H. Schulz"  a écrit :

--- SNIP

http://www.debian.org
http://www.fedora-project.org
http://www.opensuse.org
http://www.claws-mail.org
http://www.drupal.org
http://www.django.org
http://www.archlinux.org
http://www.hforge.org

(all different projects of various sizes)...

Best,
-- 
Charles-H. Schulz
Member of the Board of Directors,
The Document Foundation.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: The Floppy icon and meritocracy

2012-02-08 Thread Charles-H. Schulz 
Hello Pedro,

Le Wed, 8 Feb 2012 06:47:05 -0800 (PST),
Pedro  a écrit :

> Hi again Charles
> 
> 
> Charles-H.Schulz wrote
> > 
> > Do you have examples? I'd be happy to hear about them, I'm sure we
> > work in a very similar fashion...
> > 
> 
> Of course. Here is an excellent one
> http://emergedesktop.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1419
> 
> You don't work in a similar fashion ;)
> 

I think we do. And I think some terms may not be very accurately used
here. What this thread says -and I took the time not to just look at
the thread but at the other areas of the project as well- is that
developers listen to user feedback. And that's probably a good thing to
do although some people might disagree (cf. Henry Ford); yet listening
to user feedback hardly makes up a democracy. It's user feedback. In
some cases it might be a case of "nice customer service". But it does
not help that much. I'll explain myself. 

Let me describe to you what I called limited democracy here, and I'll
also give you links of small and less small FOSS projects that
implement meritocracy and are by no ways democracies (other than
"limited" democracies). 

A FOSS project mainly produces code. Its sole reason, in fact, is to
produce code; whether someone pays for it or manages to be a guru at
product strategy and marketing so well he can even entrance hackers in
its "Reality Distortion Field" is another question. FOSS projects
produce code. Then, around that rough code you have another categories
of contributors: the QA testers, the localizers, the documentation
writers, the marketers (no particular order here); sometimes you have
the extension developers as well. All these people do something very
specific: they contribute to the project. Granted it might not only be
code, but that's beside the point. They contribute and they make the
project. The reason they contribute might be completely unknown to you,
or there might be as many reasons as you will find for each
contributor. It's good sometimes to question or to know what's the
"general reason" to contribute from one or two active contributors, but
it's not always necessary. Back to our contributors; they form the
active people who push the project forward, heck, they are the project
themselves. But because each of them might contribute for various and
sometimes opposite reasons, any of them, sometimes even all of them or
a good majority of them, will stop contributing; conversely, they might
even increase their contribution. If you stick to the original line
from Eric Raymond (the Cathedral and the Bazaar, a must read), the
reason any developer would contribute is because he/she'd like to
"scratch an itch". Granted that scratch might be for hire or is already
funded, but that's besides the point. 

In the end, it's the people who make the software (and distribute it,
promote it) who call the shots. They call the shots because they get to
"make" the software at various levels. So it's a meritocracy because
it's a "do-ocracy" in a sense.  The good news here is that it makes up
for quite a lot of people. The not so good news in a sense, is that
"mere" users, by which I mean "passive" users, who do not contribute
anything in terms of code, tests, localization, documentation,
dictionaries, pamphlets, designs, etc. are only left with one choice:
to use the software if they like it, or to stop using it. The only
reason is not that it's not a democracy, it's just that they don't have
the power to act on the software project unless they adopt or reject
it. 

There is also a more subtle good part in this: no user is barred to
join the contributors' ranks; and when this user actually does, he'll
have a say as long as he remains a contributor. 

There are projects who do not formally formalize too much who
specifically are their contributors. Some others do. The Document
Foundation does formalize it to the extent that it is our contributors
who "own the foundation" and nobody else does. It's not just in our
social contract or an unwritten assumption, it's legal . There are
rather broad criteria to define what a contributor is and does (our
bylaws and statutes define them) and anyone who qualifies become thus a
member of the foundation with rather large " political" rights. In this
sense we have democracy. But FOSS projects do not run on open and
democratic structure; they run on transparent and agreed processes,
with an free and open source code at their core. 

Hope this helps, and sorry for the long email,
-- 
Charles-H. Schulz
Member of the Board of Directors,
The Document Foundation.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: The Floppy icon and meritocracy

2012-02-08 Thread Charles-H. Schulz 
Hello Pedro,

Le Wed, 8 Feb 2012 06:17:10 -0800 (PST),
Pedro  a écrit :

> 
> Charles-H.Schulz wrote
> > 
> > This being said and at the
> > risk of sounding evil and stubborn: FOSS has never been about
> > demoracy. It's limited democracy at best, that is, democracy
> > narrowed to a very defined set of decisions, with a strong
> > meritocracy making up for most of everything and *sigh* documented
> > processes. I'm afraid this time we skipped
> > the documented process part. Please bear with us ;-)
> > 
> 
> I have to disagree with you. Maybe this is a reality for a large
> project such as LibreOffice. But I have collaborated (and still do)
> on FOSS projects that are mostly democratic. So this is not a
> characteristic of FOSS but maybe of large FOSS projects.


Do you have examples? I'd be happy to hear about them, I'm sure we work
in a very similar fashion...

best,
Charles. 

> 
> In any case I managed to hack the Tango theme and replace the new
> icons with the old ones (BTW someone forgot to update the
> saveastemplate icons in the new Theme ;) )
> 
> You can't use your old tango theme from 3.4.x because the folder
> structure has been changed between versions.
> 
> So, if anyone is interested, it's freely available here
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2347109/images_tango.zip
> 
> There are no virus or backdoors or whatnot (it just contains png
> images so it can not possibly contain any harmful code)
> 
> You have to replace the old theme because for some odd reason the
> list of allowed themes seems to be hardcoded.
> Otherwise I would have called it old_tango, floppy_tango or
> stubborn_users'_tango :)
> 
> For Windows user it should be placed at
> %ProgramFiles%\LibreOffice 3.5\share\config\images_tango.zip


Thank you for the tip!

Best,
Charles. 




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