Re: [IxDA Discuss] Cooper's reprise to the Insurgency of Quality (this time to developers)
Here's a good Buxton video on 'Design Thinking: Action and Ecosystem' from CHIFOO http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTfNMJ9ONpg On Jan 29, 2010, at 8:56 AM, ScottL wrote: Hi Dave Do you have the links to the talks by Bill Buxton where he talks about this as I would be very interested in listening to them too. And a comment, as the work by Donald Schon about reflective practitioners stands out as being more applicable to both disciplines even more. As software developers and interaction designers must take on the right responsibilities for learning how to work in these teams . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=48622 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Cooper's reprise to the Insurgency of Quality (this time to developers)
Hi Dave Do you have the links to the talks by Bill Buxton where he talks about this as I would be very interested in listening to them too. And a comment, as the work by Donald Schon about reflective practitioners stands out as being more applicable to both disciplines even more. As software developers and interaction designers must take on the right responsibilities for learning how to work in these teams . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=48622 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Cooper's reprise to the Insurgency of Quality (this time to developers)
JET, The economic realities are what I'm alluding to, not how practice should be. The reality is that coding is a commodity akin to other craftspeople and that is a different problem. Designers who are craftspeople are similarly in the same position. The designers who are looking towards converged design and transdisciplinary business management that are moving (for now) beyond the commodity. I like how Dan spun my take a bit. respect those that do the building. That is definitely true. What I dislike is the assumption that they get my respect and not visa versa. That their implicit role is all that is necessary for them to earn my respect, yet I have to change my entire framework and language system to gain theirs. My major point here though is that this discussion about agile has been framed incorrectly. Alan's talk is part of a reframing and I appreciate that effort. I disagree with his attempt, but agree with its necessity. As I said recently on Twitter. I believe in the power of Big Design Up Front. Alan seems to be trying to cover it up w/ language that softens the blow and say that the people doing it now are better than the people who did it before, but he doesn't quite fess up to what he's asking for. I often fall back on Buxton's talks that fight the push towards agile when he talks about how software dev folks have tried to reframe design to fit there, as opposed to reframe dev to fit design. Design in other areas is very upfront and doesn't really seem to be problematic. It is indeed iterative and collaborative, but definitely up front. -- dave . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=48622 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Cooper's reprise to the Insurgency of Quality (this time to developers)
On Jan 26, 2010, at 10:13 AM, j. eric townsend wrote: > Yet amazingly enough, we ignorant developers managed to create all sorts of > amazing products in the 80s and 90s without designers holding our hands or > telling us where to put the pixels or what color they should be. > > If your (collective, not just Dave) general attitude towards developers is > that they are robots ignorant of design or aesthetics who exist only to do > your bidding, I think you have bigger problems than how to implement agile or > whatever. I wouldn't take Alan's attitude toward developers to be the norm. In fact, I find it a little dated. It might have been true or warranted in the 80s or 90s that there was a strong line and animosity between designers and developers, but I haven't found that to be the case on any project I've worked on, at least in the '00s and I hope going forward. Most of the developers I've worked with have been valuable collaborators, and the line between design and development gets blurrier every day. Especially with web work, designers and developers are often the same person. I've stolen some great design ideas from developers that have definitely improved the end product. We shouldn't forget that we're not the ones who create the product: developers, engineers, and manufacturers are. We're just making the plans. We rely on their skills to execute and hopefully improve upon our ideas. Dan Dan Saffer Principal, Kicker Studio http://www.kickerstudio.com @odannyboy on Twitter Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Cooper's reprise to the Insurgency of Quality (this time to developers)
dave malouf wrote: There is nothing wrong with wanting to have quality engineering done efficiently with the goal of the customer in mind (BTW do we design for "customers" or "humans" or "humanity"?) but the developer at his soul is a carpenter there to take the order of the architect, contractor and building mogul. Yet amazingly enough, we ignorant developers managed to create all sorts of amazing products in the 80s and 90s without designers holding our hands or telling us where to put the pixels or what color they should be. If your (collective, not just Dave) general attitude towards developers is that they are robots ignorant of design or aesthetics who exist only to do your bidding, I think you have bigger problems than how to implement agile or whatever. When I started writing visualization software and implementing infrastructure at startups, it wasn't because "at [my] soul" I wanted to do the bidding of designers. It was because I got to find and solve really hard problems and work with really bright people at the same time. -- J. E. 'jet' Townsend, IDSA Design, Fabrication, Hacking design: www.allartburns.org; hacking: www.flatline.net; HF: KG6ZVQ PGP: 0xD0D8C2E8 AC9B 0A23 C61A 1B4A 27C5 F799 A681 3C11 D0D8 C2E8 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Cooper's reprise to the Insurgency of Quality (this time to developers)
(ok, last one I promise) ... did Alan just start the red state/blue state equiv to the design community. I mean do I live in N. VA which is not real America for some reason? Are there real interaction designers? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=48622 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Cooper's reprise to the Insurgency of Quality (this time to developers)
... or maybe, I'm just not a real interaction designer. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=48622 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Cooper's reprise to the Insurgency of Quality (this time to developers)
Hi Donna & William, "analytical & empirical" are not bad so long as they are only a part of a greater whole. If you loose the abduction process (using the term "artistic" is a way to be pejorative in Cooper's piece which I also find quite insulting) that is at the core of design process and only concentrate on the linear deduction process that he is describing, you basically loose the soul of design's power. I often here (and now I'm responding to William) the phrase, we need to speak their language, or in terms they understand. But I only hear this phrase when considering how designers should speak to developers. I NEVER hear anyone tell developers that they should change their language, process, or methods to meet the designer's understanding. This is the equivalent of developer/designer sexism. What I mean is that rhetorically there is the same power arrangement and assumption that one's way needs to be followed in order to have authenticity. An interesting term that Cooper invokes again as a device to be dismissive of designers who do not follow his total path of interaction design, as if it is the path. William, While there are many forms of agile, they are grouped together due to affinities. I can be an atheist (anti-religion) in my relationship to all religions and it is understood that I do not believe in a higher-power. This is my feeling about Agile development methods. They agree in some core things w/o which they are no longer Agile. These are the things that I have been at odds with. Unlike Cooper though, I have not been challenged to find a peaceful place within Agile. Finding these lines of similarities assumes that this is a war actually worth finding peace with, or more importantly worth fighting. This notion of designer as craftsperson that Alan uses is at the same time language I would use (design/craft) but twisted it into something I find quite atrocious. By limiting the purview of designer to craft alone "analytical & empirical" he has amputated the highest value that design can offer any solution: humanity and humility. All for the sake of making "developers feel comfortable" or so "[they] can understand". Now to the "core of interaction design" piece William talks about. Yes, in much of practice we have limited ourselves to discovering fit and validating design. But for many of us, this is not interaction design, but interaction engineering. The design is in both the emotional and in the ways we create new behaviors (not just fit existing ones). This requires a temperament of strategy built on understanding "why" as much as how and what. Cooper did allow for the role of IxD as strategy builder/owner which is great, but he isn't building that strategy on a design for impacting human beings, but rather for fitting. I do appreciate his push to developers. That they understand the importance of vision creation. THAT was the one spot where I felt hope amidst the trepidation in his piece. I do think though his vision of IxD is one emblematic of Silicon Valley and is in some ways in discord to that of more European traditions of IxD. There is nothing wrong with wanting to have quality engineering done efficiently with the goal of the customer in mind (BTW do we design for "customers" or "humans" or "humanity"?) but the developer at his soul is a carpenter there to take the order of the architect, contractor and building mogul. The designer is the architect who works under commission and appreciated on his past value which appreciates over time. The developer is appreciated for quality & speed which is a commodity. (oh! that's going to hurt in the morning!) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=48622 Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Cooper's reprise to the Insurgency of Quality (this time to developers)
Dave - Agile is not one way of doing things. It's a movement away from traditional software development. Agile embraces a process much more in step with the traditional design process. The people I've worked with who are leaders in agile, debate agile methods among themselves - and practice those methods that work for them. There is no agile movement to disagree with or fight - there is just the idealistic manifesto which is only the spark that ignited a flame. Real world agile is simply a collaborative development process rather than a development team locking themselves in a room and not coming out until the product is finished. Cooper speaks very clearly to this and suggest the interaction designer take the leadership role in the early stages of the product. I agree. I believe Cooper's reference to aesthetics is through the word 'tactile'. The vast majority of developers do not discuss aesthetics - they don't understand it because it is not concrete. They have little knowledge and understanding of typography, color theory, or the basic principles of visual design. Since when is interaction design not analytical or empirical - that is at our core is it not? It's interaction design's empiricalness that makes it so useful. If you recall from Cooper's 2008 keynote, he gave the advice that interaction designers should utilize their research and data as a tool to engage the developers. They respond to data and logic. I read this new presentation feeling that what he describes is what I've been doing for the past year. -b Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] Cooper's reprise to the Insurgency of Quality (this time to developers)
I thought the talk/paper was excellent. While I do not believe that there is only one way to get to an effective end product - I think that Cooper's proposal is a sound step forward that will hopefully be embraced by the Agile community. Dave, I also had to wonder - what is wrong with "analytical and empirical" work? From you comments, I gather (and please correct me if I'm wrong :-) ) - that you don't think that they are part of the artistic process. Based on my coursework with working artists - they are very much a part of the artistic process. I think Cooper's process description leaves plenty of room for aesthetics to be part of the work. While he doesn't mention it explicitly, he talks of vision, strategy, etc. Also, within the generative process, there is definitely a place for aesthetics (to adopt some of his and agile's terminology). Although, I would agree that more whole-brained thinking terminology might be added (He did seem to lean toward left-brained terminology more than right or whole-brained.) Just my thoughts based on a quick read. It is an excellent article. Alot of the meat is after page 20. Thanks for bringing the article to our attention. Also, in a separate email, I will describe an art school activity/project that I thought of based on your email. -Donna Fritzsche Ontologist, Information Architect, occasional Interaction Designer The ONE thing that I feel the cooper piece has not evolved enough towards is where I have left the standard world of software design and its very tacit view of the world where at best user-centeredness is mostly about fit and efectiveness towards issues of humanity, humaness, and aesthetics. But mostly importantly where is the question of "why?" why build X in the first place? This question which is so important to the "authentic interaction designer" as Alan calls us (or is it them?) is missing from his piece. Also, there is no mention of aesthetics and in fact a push that the interaction designer is "analytical and empirical" which in my mind is as "inauthentic" as an interaction designer can be. What are you thoughts? -- dave -- Dave Malouf http://davemalouf.com/ http://twitter.com/daveixd http://scad.edu/industrialdesign http://ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
[IxDA Discuss] Cooper's reprise to the Insurgency of Quality (this time to developers)
I read the entire presentation with pause and trepidation. I have fought the agile movement tooth and nail (and this piece hasn't changed my mind). This piece gave me hope in that it looks towards a new type of software design & development culture that we haven't seen yet and this I am welcome to. Here's the link: http://www.cooper.com/journal/2010/01/an_insurgency_of_quality.html I call it a "reprise", b/c in 2008 he gave a talk with the same title at Interaction 08. The ONE thing that I feel the cooper piece has not evolved enough towards is where I have left the standard world of software design and its very tacit view of the world where at best user-centeredness is mostly about fit and efectiveness towards issues of humanity, humaness, and aesthetics. But mostly importantly where is the question of "why?" why build X in the first place? This question which is so important to the "authentic interaction designer" as Alan calls us (or is it them?) is missing from his piece. Also, there is no mention of aesthetics and in fact a push that the interaction designer is "analytical and empirical" which in my mind is as "inauthentic" as an interaction designer can be. What are you thoughts? -- dave -- Dave Malouf http://davemalouf.com/ http://twitter.com/daveixd http://scad.edu/industrialdesign http://ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... disc...@ixda.org Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
