Re: [IxDA Discuss] How to handle clients...
Hi all, I discussed the matter with the clients project manager and he said there was no way the boss would change his mind. So I did what he asked and moved on. Thank you again for your input, it does feel better knowing that it seems to happen all the time and you cannot always get it your way. Cheers Björn . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://gamma.ixda.org/discuss?post=22264 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] How to handle clients...
I have dealt with an almost similar sort of client. What actually happen is that the said person is used to calling the shots, and would insist on getting things done "his way" without actual valid reasons. Apart some time reasoning with him etc it became clear that there was no way the client is going to accept anything other than what he wanted, so what we did was to make him sign off on an agreement that we had done our best to alert him of the problems and consequences, and he was well aware of it and he wanted the change nonetheless. What happen next is almost astonishing, he suddenly didn't insist on his way anymore. I think what happen is that though he always want to call the shot, he is also equally afraid that if things goes wrong it would reflect badly upon him, thus backing down from his stance in the last minute. I guess it won't work for everyone, but it is still a good way to let others know that you had carried out your task professionally and is not simply making changes, good or bad, just to suit the client. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://gamma.ixda.org/discuss?post=22264 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] How to handle clients...
Hi all, Thank you very much for your responses. I'll come back to this thread when everything is said and done and report how things went. Cheers, Björn . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://gamma.ixda.org/discuss?post=22264 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] How to handle clients...
Gotta agree. Try to talk to the boss and see if you can find out why he/she's so insistent that that element be included in the top nav. Two things will probably happen: 1. You get an insight to the boss and how he/she thinks, which could smooth out the approval process down the road. 2. You'll be perceived as someone who cares about listening to everyone's opinion because you've taken the time to ask. In the end you'll probably still have to put that element there, but at least you'll have a better understanding as to why it's there--beyond the boss's demand. On Nov 7, 2007 10:02 AM, Sara Summers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Corollary: it's much easier to talk a client out of plainly awful design > decisions when the client trusts you and understands that you've taken > their > input seriously. > > -Anne > > > > I think that is the biggest point right there. Everyone wants to be heard. > If your client walks away from the meeting feeling good and acknowledged, > then it is a win win. It makes the rest of the process easier...even if > you > have > to hit the drawing board a few more times to get their ideas to gel with > your design. > > Next time they will be on your side... > > Sara Summers > visual | interaction design > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > 512.297.1330 > > > *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* > February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA > Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ > > > Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! > To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe > List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines > List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help > *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] How to handle clients...
Corollary: it's much easier to talk a client out of plainly awful design decisions when the client trusts you and understands that you've taken their input seriously. -Anne I think that is the biggest point right there. Everyone wants to be heard. If your client walks away from the meeting feeling good and acknowledged, then it is a win win. It makes the rest of the process easier...even if you have to hit the drawing board a few more times to get their ideas to gel with your design. Next time they will be on your side... Sara Summers visual | interaction design [EMAIL PROTECTED] 512.297.1330 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] How to handle clients...
Hi Kel, I'll definitely meet them again for a discussion but as always one should pick ones battles, and this might not be the right one. Preparation and an open mind are probably key here and as you say, it's a tricky balance. Regards, Björn . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://gamma.ixda.org/discuss?post=22264 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] How to handle clients...
Sometimes, when a client seems unaccountably stubborn about including a design element, there's a good reason for it, but the client can't articulate why. And resistance from the designer just makes the client shut down in frustration, so we're left with a false sense that the client is being unreasonable. It can be quite challenging for some non-designers to talk about design, period. It can make a stakeholder feel very out of their depth and uncomfortable. Our clients know their businesses far better than we can; it's our job to make sure that our clients understand that we're being responsive and listening to their concerns. Corollary: it's much easier to talk a client out of plainly awful design decisions when the client trusts you and understands that you've taken their input seriously. -Anne On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 07:20:20, Kel Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > First, determine if this is even worth your time and effort. You > mention that it's a tight deadline with a small budget; I'd be > inclined to satisfy the client's request. > > That being said, I would schedule a meeting with the stakeholder and > respectfully make your case. Frame it in such a way that lets the > boss know you are aware and understand the directive being asked of > you. Provide rationale (again, respectfully) using any specifics you > have. Listen to the reasoning behind his/her wishes. > > It's a tricky balance, Björn. In the end, do what's best for a > harmonious client-vendor relationship. Good luck with it. > > > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > Posted from the new ixda.org > http://gamma.ixda.org/discuss?post=22264 > > > > > *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* > February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA > Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ > > > Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! > To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe > List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines > List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help > -- Anne Hjortshoj | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.annehj.com *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] How to handle clients...
First, determine if this is even worth your time and effort. You mention that it's a tight deadline with a small budget; I'd be inclined to satisfy the client's request. That being said, I would schedule a meeting with the stakeholder and respectfully make your case. Frame it in such a way that lets the boss know you are aware and understand the directive being asked of you. Provide rationale (again, respectfully) using any specifics you have. Listen to the reasoning behind his/her wishes. It's a tricky balance, Björn. In the end, do what's best for a harmonious client-vendor relationship. Good luck with it. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://gamma.ixda.org/discuss?post=22264 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] How to handle clients...
Hi Petteri, Unfortunately there haven't been any resources available (time/money that is) to make proper scenarios/personas. Nevertheless I should be able to discuss how the different solutions will work for a user looking for specific information in different scenarios. Hopefully though, the compromise I have come up with will satisfy the boss. "Your personal goal is to get his trust. If you solve your stakeholders' goals, they won't question your design in every turn." All things aside, this is a very good advice and I'll keep it in mind. Cheers, Björn . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://gamma.ixda.org/discuss?post=22264 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] How to handle clients...
Björn Simonson kirjoitti 7.11.2007 kello 13:09: > My problem is that the boss is in a position to veto pretty much > everything and/or the project manger is not strong enough to stand > up to his boss in these matters. So even if I get the project group > to agree that we can't change the structure to accommodate the boss' > suggestion (which shouldn't be a problem) I'm not sure that they can > convince the boss. Instead of arguing over the design, argue over scenarios. You probably have created believable scenarios (previously approved) where some believable actors (also previously approved) perform their tasks to achieve their goals (previously approved, right ?--). You can try to come up with a scenario that supports the stakeholder's design choice. If you can, his/her design choice was right. But if you can't come up with such scenario, or it sounds ridiculous, you can still bring your findings to the table and ask for goals/achievements/ scenarios from the stakeholder. "That sounds good to me, but what problem does it solve for the user? What kind of user?" Aim for single individual to avoid ambiguity. Don't make him/her a designer that solves the problem, but try to squeeze out the problem he/she wants to be solved. Your personal goal is to get his trust. If you solve your stakeholders' goals, they won't question your design in every turn. You've got to "ignore the designer", including yourself and the stakeholder and focus the argument on the users/actors/personas, or whatever you use in your projects. Here's a good article about that by Chris Noessel: http://www.cooper.com/insights/journal_of_design/articles/ignore_that_designer_behind_th.html (Your situation is exactly why we always try to split the design project in at least two parts: first agree on the problem (or goals), then agree on the solution (or design). In a two-month project that would be approximately 1+1 months of calendar time ~ two meetings with important stakeholders.) Hope this helps, Petteri -- Petteri Hiisilä Senior Interaction Designer iXDesign / +358505050123 / [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Simple is better than complex. Complex is better than complicated." - Tim Peters *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] How to handle clients...
> From: Björn Simonson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 12:09:42 +0100 > To: > Conversation: How to handle clients... > Subject: [IxDA Discuss] How to handle clients... > > ...that are making suggestions to the structure of a website that are bad and > will screw everything up? > > I'm currently working on a project for a smaller website (with a tight > budget). I've done a couple of workshops and have had some discussions with > the clients project group to come up with a working information structure for > the site. Everything came together and we agreed on a structure. The problem > aroused when the project leader showed the structure for his boss (who is > v-e-r-y determined) and the boss insisted that one specific group of > information had to be in the top-navigation (I had placed it one level down > with other related material). > > My problem is that the boss is in a position to veto pretty much everything > and/or the project manger is not strong enough to stand up to his boss in > these matters. So even if I get the project group to agree that we can't > change the structure to accommodate the boss' suggestion (which shouldn't be a > problem) I'm not sure that they can convince the boss. > > Have any of you been in a similar situation or do you have any suggestions on > how to resolve the issue? I'm thinking about talking to the boss and see if I > have more luck convincing him, but somehow I feel it won't be worth the > effort. (Had I had more time/money I would have done user-tests to show that > the idea is indeed bad) > > > > Regards > > Björn > There are two suggestions. Do you know why the boss wants it this way? If there is a particular reason you could argue against then that might save you from getting into a contest of wills and that almost always results in a bad situation for the consultant. Secondly, if in spite of your best reasons and good judgment they still want it the way they want it-do it their way. They are paying for it, they know their business, and maybe it will work. Who knows and perhaps you can propose a paying gig to evaluate it in a year's time. Cheers, Bernie -- Bernie Monette InterActive Arts Internet Presence Management http://www.iaai.ca [EMAIL PROTECTED] 416 469 4337 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
Re: [IxDA Discuss] How to handle clients...
Yeah, I definitely don't want to get into a pissing contest (I would loose =). And you're probably right about the second suggestion too; the customer is always right, right? I think I know now what the boss is looking for and I'm working on a compromise. If he doesn't like it I'll do it his way... Thanks for your input! Cheers, Björn . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Posted from the new ixda.org http://gamma.ixda.org/discuss?post=22264 *Come to IxDA Interaction08 | Savannah* February 8-10, 2008 in Savannah, GA, USA Register today: http://interaction08.ixda.org/ Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)! To post to this list ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe List Guidelines http://www.ixda.org/guidelines List Help .. http://www.ixda.org/help
