Re: [slim] Future of codecs in LMS
w3wilkes wrote: > A little off topic, but I think higher bitrate mp3 is quite good and > shouldn't be discounted so quickly. About 8 years ago @archimage (a user > here) did some double blind testing of FLAC vs higher bitrate mp3 and > the outcome of that test can be found here; > https://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?98010-RESULTS-Blind-Test-MP3-vs-Lossless-out-now > I think several of the players in this challenge are members on these > boards. > > I thought Archimago laid things out fairly well for this challenge > > Initial Survey - > http://archimago.blogspot.com/2012/12/high-bit-rate-mp3-survey-is-up.html > Preamble - http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/01/ > Part 1 - > http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/02/high-bitrate-mp3-internet-blind-test.html > Part 2 - > http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/02/high-bitrate-mp3-internet-blind-test_3422.html > Part 3 - > http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/02/high-bitrate-mp3-internet-blind-test_2.html > Part 4 - > http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/02/high-bitrate-internet-blind-test-part-4.html Yes you are correct, 320kbp mp3 is pretty good. ItÂ’s just the opus gives you more for half :) LMS 8.2 on Odroid-C4 - *SqueezeAMP!*, 5xRadio, 5xBoom, 2xDuet, 1xTouch, 1xSB3. Sonos PLAY:3, PLAY:5, Marantz NR1603, Foobar2000, ShairPortW, 2xChromecast Audio, Chromecast v1 and v2, Squeezelite on Pi, Yamaha WX-010, AppleTV 4, Airport Express, GGMM E5, RivaArena 1 & 3 philippe_44's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17261 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=114590 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Squeezebox Receiver/Duet - no analog sound
I too have had great luck with the receivers, I have 2 (both work fine) and have had 1 power supply failure and 1 wifi card failure over 10+ years and was able to get replacement parts for both. If I would have had to solder I'd build a pi/DAC to replace it and I do have 1 pi/DAC in service too. Main system - Rock Solid with LMS 8.1.2 on WHS 2011 - 2 Duets and Squeeseslave Cabin system - Rock solid with LMS 8.1.2 on Win10 Pro - 1 RPi 3 Model B/Hifiberry DAC+ Pro/PiCorePlayer and Squeezeslave Squeezebox Boom - "At Large" player around both home and cabin Headphones and car - Android phone/Bluetooth w/full library on MicroSD card - PowerAmp music player app (similar to Material Skin) w3wilkes's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=22973 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=114598 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Future of codecs in LMS
A little off topic, but I think higher bitrate mp3 is quite good and shouldn't be discounted so quickly. About 8 years ago @archimage (a user here) did some double blind testing of FLAC vs higher bitrate mp3 and the outcome of that test can be found here; https://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?98010-RESULTS-Blind-Test-MP3-vs-Lossless-out-now I think several of the players in this challenge are members on these boards. I thought Archimago laid things out fairly well for this challenge Initial Survey - http://archimago.blogspot.com/2012/12/high-bit-rate-mp3-survey-is-up.html Preamble - http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/01/ Part 1 - http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/02/high-bitrate-mp3-internet-blind-test.html Part 2 - http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/02/high-bitrate-mp3-internet-blind-test_3422.html Part 3 - http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/02/high-bitrate-mp3-internet-blind-test_2.html Part 4 - http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/02/high-bitrate-internet-blind-test-part-4.html Main system - Rock Solid with LMS 8.1.2 on WHS 2011 - 2 Duets and Squeeseslave Cabin system - Rock solid with LMS 8.1.2 on Win10 Pro - 1 RPi 3 Model B/Hifiberry DAC+ Pro/PiCorePlayer and Squeezeslave Squeezebox Boom - "At Large" player around both home and cabin Headphones and car - Android phone/Bluetooth w/full library on MicroSD card - PowerAmp music player app (similar to Material Skin) w3wilkes's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=22973 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=114590 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Future of codecs in LMS
mherger wrote: > >> It would seem to me that any lossy codec chosen for "focus" should > be > >> natively supported by existing Squeezebox hardware and Squeezelite. > > > > No for SB, yes for Squeezelite. No for SB because we want to "look > > forward" and we can't if we limit to existing codecs 10 years ago, so > > support will be by transcoding. > > I'm sorry to say, but I still don't understand what challenge you're > trying to address... what is the purpose of this initiative? Why would > we want to change what we stream to the players? Is this for the > transcoding case only? zordaz wrote: > I am confused now. Imho transcoding within LMS from lossy to lossy is > only suitable for specific use cases and not something to implement as a > possible default for 'legacy codecs'. When transcoding legacy codecs is > needed it should be to a lossless format. > > So I think Michael Herger has a point: the purpose of this initiative / > this thread needs more clarification. I'm not changing anything and there is no urgency of any kind. I have no intention (and not in charge anyway) or removing support of codecs in LMS. Now, as somebody who had to port many codecs to a new type of hardware (esp32), I can tell it was painful (and still is). So I was wondering, for example: if I had to create a brand new device and I would have to chose only one lossless and one (or two) lossy, which ones would I take? This would mean that LMS would have to be very good at transcoding from anything to one of these codecs, including accepting various inputs like stdin, url, file and doing resampling, sample scaling, seeking and then spitting out the right format with the proper headers (I've done that as well and it's easier said than done when you include all these requirements). So is this a better option to let players deal with the variety of codecs or is this better to reduce their scope and force LMS to do all the proxying/transcoding work. Maybe we should have dedicated helpers for doing that job. That question, as said in 1st post, was also triggered by the request or creating a lossless ./stream.xxx URL because today we only have mp3. Lossless was flac but then I thought what about adding another lossy b/c mp3 is not the best quality, has still IPR potential issues, and is a format of the past. So what should we chose then? Now this post is just to start a conversation about long-term directions, nothing more really. LMS 8.2 on Odroid-C4 - *SqueezeAMP!*, 5xRadio, 5xBoom, 2xDuet, 1xTouch, 1xSB3. Sonos PLAY:3, PLAY:5, Marantz NR1603, Foobar2000, ShairPortW, 2xChromecast Audio, Chromecast v1 and v2, Squeezelite on Pi, Yamaha WX-010, AppleTV 4, Airport Express, GGMM E5, RivaArena 1 & 3 philippe_44's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17261 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=114590 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Future of codecs in LMS
philippe_44 wrote: > No for SB, yes for Squeezelite. No for SB because we want to "look > forward" and we can't if we limit to existing codecs 10 years ago, so > support will be by transcoding. I am confused now. Imho transcoding within LMS from lossy to lossy is only suitable for specific use cases and not something to implement as a possible default for 'legacy codecs'. When transcoding legacy codecs is needed it should be to a lossless format. So I think Michael Herger has a point: the purpose of this initiative / this thread needs more clarification. *Living Room:* HifiBerry DAC+ Pro & piCorePlayer *Attic:* HifiBerry DAC+ RCA & piCorePlayer *Other rooms:* 6x SB Radio *LMS*: Version 8.1.x on Xubuntu 20.04LTS zordaz's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=61726 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=114590 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Squeezebox Receiver/Duet - no analog sound
Oh, I forgot to mention... I do not currently have a DAC so the only test I can do with the digital outputs is to connect an optical cable and see if the light blinks, which it does. (I currently do not have a receiver with digital inputs. I'm driving a NAD 2-channel amp with only analog inputs while I figure out what kind of multi-channel system I want to build.) flacpilot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=70818 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=114598 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Squeezebox Receiver/Duet - no analog sound
I have a Squeezebox Receiver (bought as part of a Duet) that no longer produces analog sound. It appears to boot up and run just fine, because I can see it in LMS and select playback tracks, and the front LED changes color as expected as it boots up and starts playback. It registers in LMS, which means that the Wi-Fi system is working well enough to start up, get an IP address, and connect. It also seems to be stable - I can play back for over an hour with no obvious stability problem. A search found the following threads: 1. https://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?103213-Squeezebox-3-common-faults-over-time 2. https://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?84395-SB3-Left-channel-has-gone-very-quiet 3. https://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?71914-SB3-volume-output-lower-on-left-than-right-channel 4. https://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?97833-Squeezebox-Classic-Right-channel-output-has-almost-no-volume Most of these threads are about the SB3, and the Receiver is similar to but not necessarily identical to it. These threads usually suggest that the electrolytic caps have gone bad with the passage of time. I bought my Duet prior to 2010, which I know because I remember talking about how wonderful the whole system was with a co-worker when I started a job that year. :) Following the advice in thread #3, I replaced the electrolytic caps in the analog section with ceramic caps (see 'this post' (https://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?71914-SB3-volume-output-lower-on-left-than-right-channel=851444=1#post851444), though I ordered from Digikey instead of Mouser). It appears that the Receiver uses the same caps as the SB3 in its analog section, which isn't surprising because I always thought the SBR was basically an SB3 minus the display. In case it helps, here's a pic of my board. The analog section is on the upper right next to the RCA output jacks. The SMD work on the analog stage isn't great, but it looks as good as all the keyboards I've made in quarantine that function. 34710 Obviously, this isn't a huge deal if it doesn't work, I can always switch to a Raspberry Pi with a DAC board... but this is such a great product that I just want it to work! +---+ |Filename: sbr-1k.jpg | |Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=34710| +---+ flacpilot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=70818 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=114598 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Future of codecs in LMS
It would seem to me that any lossy codec chosen for "focus" should be natively supported by existing Squeezebox hardware and Squeezelite. No for SB, yes for Squeezelite. No for SB because we want to "look forward" and we can't if we limit to existing codecs 10 years ago, so support will be by transcoding. I'm sorry to say, but I still don't understand what challenge you're trying to address... what is the purpose of this initiative? Why would we want to change what we stream to the players? Is this for the transcoding case only? ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Future of codecs in LMS
coyrls wrote: > It would seem to me that any lossy codec chosen for "focus" should be > natively supported by existing Squeezebox hardware and Squeezelite. No for SB, yes for Squeezelite. No for SB because we want to "look forward" and we can't if we limit to existing codecs 10 years ago, so support will be by transcoding. LMS 8.2 on Odroid-C4 - *SqueezeAMP!*, 5xRadio, 5xBoom, 2xDuet, 1xTouch, 1xSB3. Sonos PLAY:3, PLAY:5, Marantz NR1603, Foobar2000, ShairPortW, 2xChromecast Audio, Chromecast v1 and v2, Squeezelite on Pi, Yamaha WX-010, AppleTV 4, Airport Express, GGMM E5, RivaArena 1 & 3 philippe_44's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17261 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=114590 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Future of codecs in LMS
It would seem to me that any lossy codec chosen for "focus" should be natively supported by existing Squeezebox hardware and Squeezelite. coyrls's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=44253 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=114590 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Future of codecs in LMS
philippe_44 wrote: > The vague terme I used for htttp client was just an example which is not > really the main question. I just meant that if a codec is our focused > one, then for example we would have a /stream.xxx url available as we > have today /stream.mp3, but it was a minor illustration I think it could be part of main question as it depends on whether target player can play Opus - not all browsers can. bpa's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1806 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=114590 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Future of codecs in LMS
bpa wrote: > what is the "http capable client" that you will be using that make opus > preferable over say flac ? The vague terme I used for htttp client was just an example which is not really the main question. I just meant that if a codec is our focused one, then for example we would have a /stream.xxx url available as we have today /stream.mp3, but it was a minor illustration LMS 8.2 on Odroid-C4 - *SqueezeAMP!*, 5xRadio, 5xBoom, 2xDuet, 1xTouch, 1xSB3. Sonos PLAY:3, PLAY:5, Marantz NR1603, Foobar2000, ShairPortW, 2xChromecast Audio, Chromecast v1 and v2, Squeezelite on Pi, Yamaha WX-010, AppleTV 4, Airport Express, GGMM E5, RivaArena 1 & 3 philippe_44's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17261 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=114590 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Remote streaming LMS to the car
34707 I just had a really wide grin on my face :cool: The Amazon Echo 'Auto' I bought a year ago is finally supported in Europe so I set it up in the car just now. Told MediaServer to "Stream something by Snow Patrol" and Alexa obliged with a random playlist of 512 tracks. The tortuous path: From my LMS server at home --> Ethernet --> Amazon Cloud --> 4G connection --> iPhone --> Bluetooth --> Car audio Audio was as good as Bluetooth can be. Brings a new dimension to handsfree in the car :rolleyes: +---+ |Filename: alexa_auto.jpg | |Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=34707| +---+ philchillbill's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=68920 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=114596 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Logitech is done making Harmony remotes
Logitech...where innovative products go to die. After Logitech bought the Canadian company Harmony, they screwed up the programming software making the UI harder to use and constant USB cable problems. I would have to provide tech support to my brother and friend because it was so hard to use. That's why it died. I am Roku/Echo based now and use iPeng so no need for for a Harmony anymore as I retired my legacy stereo systems to go to active speakers. earthbased's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=334 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=114352 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Future of codecs in LMS
Can OPUS codec stream legacy Vorbis? earthbased's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=334 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=114590 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Future of codecs in LMS
bpa wrote: > what is the "http capable client" that you will be using that make opus > preferable over say flac ? I am only talking about lossy. For lossless FLAC is a no-brainer, as the OP mentions as well. The 'http capable client' question needs some clarification by the OP. *Living Room:* HifiBerry DAC+ Pro & piCorePlayer *Attic:* HifiBerry DAC+ RCA & piCorePlayer *Other rooms:* 6x SB Radio *LMS*: Version 8.1.x on Xubuntu 20.04LTS zordaz's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=61726 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=114590 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Future of codecs in LMS
zordaz wrote: > My choice for lossy would be Opus as well. Personally I don't use it > BTW, because of the lack of prober gapless playback, in that department > Ogg/Vorbis is still hard to beat. However: looking into the future Opus > is for lossy the way to go IMHO. what is the "http capable client" that you will be using that make opus preferable over say flac ? bpa's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1806 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=114590 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Future of codecs in LMS
My choice for lossy would be Opus as well. Personally I don't use it BTW, because of the lack of prober gapless playback, in that department Ogg/Vorbis is still hard to beat. However: looking into the future Opus is for lossy the way to go IMHO. *Living Room:* HifiBerry DAC+ Pro & piCorePlayer *Attic:* HifiBerry DAC+ RCA & piCorePlayer *Other rooms:* 6x SB Radio *LMS*: Version 8.1.x on Xubuntu 20.04LTS zordaz's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=61726 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=114590 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[slim] HEOS By Denon?
Has anyone tried out HEOS? It appears to be a peer-to-peer system that can play FLAC. The HEOS devices are controlled by smartphone app. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk earthbased's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=334 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=114595 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Future of codecs in LMS
I think it may be necessary to characterise the "http capable client" a bit better ? It's indeed not clear to me what exactly we're talking about. Are we only talking about codec support for non slimproto compatible players? ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Future of codecs in LMS
philchillbill wrote: > My original request to Philippe to take a look at the possibilities of a > lossless stream had a very specific http-client target in mind: Amazon > Echo endpoints The lossless case is well understood. The lossy case is needs to be better described - so the change is based on the need rather than a technical preference. I'm assuming it is the addition of aac or opus and that MP3 will remain in place. So the addition of aac/opus is for user who want a marginal audio improvement but for some reason cannot play Flac. bpa's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1806 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=114590 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Future of codecs in LMS
bpa wrote: > I think it may be necessary to characterise the "http capable client" a > bit better ? My original request to Philippe to take a look at the possibilities of a lossless stream had a very specific http-client target in mind: Amazon Echo endpoints. While Echos could already handle HD/lossless streams from e.g. Amazon HD, indie skills not rooted in big corporate had no access to an interface to point an Echo at a lossless stream. That changed recently, meaning that my MediaServer skill could now send lossless audio from LMS to Echos if I had a /stream.flac route. Via Paul Webster's trick of having the skill create a request-specific PLS file at a remote https endpoint, the Echo downloads the PLS which has a playable entry "http://lmsip:9000/stream.mp3?player=Alexa; on the user's LAN. The idea is to have a lossless streaming equivalent available so that Amazon Echos become HD-capable players for LMS users. philchillbill's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=68920 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=114590 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Future of codecs in LMS
I think it may be necessary to characterise the "http capable client" a bit better ? Will it include "old" target system (e.g. Win95, netPCs, old Chromebooks) Is it for occasional users such as Android TV/Firestick or on port 80only accessible (e.g. firewalled office) Do you see a big take up of this facility . If choice is between aac vs opus, I think fundamental question is - is there "better" support among the target player for adts/aac than opus ? If this facility is going to be consistently used by less than (say) 10% of LMS users, then the codec should be one which is most widespread availability (i.e. highest likelihood of success) and CPU usage is a secondary concern. AFAICT aac support is in all (old & new) browser is better than opus. bpa's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1806 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=114590 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] LMS Plugin Development
Thanks to everyone for all the useful tips. peterw wrote: > I'm curious - do you have protocol specs? Is it this? > https://www.meridian-audio.com/media/11318/meridian-automation-interface-for-ip-control-issue-4.pdf Yes, that's the one. As it happens, I only had an earlier version from 2017, so thanks for the link to this later one. Transporter -> ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=114585 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Future of codecs in LMS
Go opus. If I'm not mistaken you're doing this on your own dollar so go for what you are comfortable to work with that gives good results and doesn't come with licensing and/or fee baggage. When you say stream http I'm thinking stream-to-browser which would also mean that flac and opus have decent browser support, correct? v2k's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=71576 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=114590 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
