Re: [slim] SB and Low Volume on Klipsch Promedia Setup
I can't see what you are seeing (obviously) and in my brain is my old altec lansing computer 2.1 setup , so I went out and found this https://audiomods.datsunzgarage.us/promedia/ is this your system? If so, it does look like the "preamp" I was referring to is a separate unit below one of the sats. If the sats speaker connections are completely independent of this "preamp" unit, then you are right, signal from the sb to the lipai to the speakers, should work fine :confused: I wouldn't suspect a "weak signal" from your sb if you are at 100% volume, also, make sure you don't have any of the replay gain settings on. All of these devices are "line level" and while some are "hotter" than others, it would not contribute to what you are hearing. Here's an experiment - hook the sb into the avr (make sure all of the sound processing is off, you want "stereo", direct if it's available). connect a fm antenna, Hook a tape monitor (out) into the lipai. Then you should be able switch between FM and the SB and compare volume through the lipai. Instead of fm if you have a cd player, etc... be careful if you try the sb->lepai**->klipsch 12"** as you will have two preamps/crossovers in the signal path (the **). I also happen to have an old klipsch ksw12 sub, it has line in and line out, so (if you have the same or similar) you could hook the sb directly into 12" sub. Maybe try to run the little sats from the 12" then? If you wanted, you could go sb->12" line in, 12" line out -> lepai line in, not sure what they would get you tho... with these problems I always try to swap things around to isolate the problem, as I have alot of old legacy stuff laying around. Redrum's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=33806 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=113854 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] SB and Low Volume on Klipsch Promedia Setup
I just made a static measurement of the satellites, which are a hi and mid range setup. The Klipsch spec sheet show the sats as 4 ohm and the woofer at 6 ohms. There is no pre-amp in either satellite, but there is a crossover in them with a resistor, capacitor, and inductor. I didn't open up the sats but apparently though they look identical on the outside the electronics on the inside have changed substantially. There is a control box in the master satellite that has volume controls for the satellites and sub. That very well could be a pre-amp of sorts (they too often fry due to cheap caps. The sub design has changed too - the new model apparently has a chip amp inside to get around the overheating that has wiped out so many amps and driven folks mad. I can't explain the results with the Sony AVR. Boy it didn't like trying to drive this system. Just to check I hooked the amp into a system in another room and it worked fine, so the amp is solid - but hook it to the Klipsch speakers directly and it just sounds awful. Then again, this might be due to the weak signal from the SB. I've long read that the SB classic isn't big on output. The original SB manual said it was okay to plug it directly in to a powered speaker setup. I did zero research when I hooked it up to the Klipsch Promedia setup years ago and simply lucked out in finding a good match. When I say "low" I mean below what I would consider a moderate listening level - and that with volume set to max which is not something any system should be running. The Lepai has a 2.1 to .1 switch. When I disconnect the sats and drive just the sub it appears clean with very little energy. I have a 12" Klipsch sub in another system and will connect the SB - Lepai - Klipsch sub and see what I get. As you said, my mistake might be not taking into account that the Klipsch Promedia design does have an in-line pre-amp and by not keeping this in the system I'm dealing with too weak a signal from the SB alone. If so, that problem would be solved simply by adding a DAC with volume control. traderyoda's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=30878 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=113854 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] SB and Low Volume on Klipsch Promedia Setup
traderyoda wrote: > Here's what I've done so far. I'm using the following hookups. Signal is > Analog RCA from the SB Classic to the Lepai. Klipsch satellites are RCA > connected to the Lepai using its volume control. The SB is set to 100%. > The Klipsch sub is 5.7 ohm and the each satellite is showing around 4.3 > ohm. > > This is what I did so far: > > - Switched out the Lepai - no difference; both Lepai amps perform the > same. > - Hooked up another dc power supply (not my hacked laptop charger) > rated at 19vdc and 3.9amps - no difference > - Hooked up a digital DC power supply fixed at 22vdc (the max rated > voltage for the Lepai) with floating current so the amp could draw what > it needed - no difference > - Took the SB out of the system and replaced it with a Yamaha radio for > the source - music was louder but still not much more so - maxed out it > about a background comfortable level. > - Hooked the Klipsch satellites to a Sony AVR along with the subwoofer > (using the mono sub output to one sub RCA input - tried both right and > left) with input from the SB to the CD in channel - I can crank up the > volume but the sounds is simply awful (muffled and distorted and the > woofer just chuffs along incoherently. > > Here's what I think I've learned. > > - No issue with my SB Classic - it seems to be working fine. > - No issue with my hacked laptop charger - it's putting out precisely > 19vdc and will ramp up current when demanded (I hooked it to a light > strip to check). > - I can't test anything with the Sony AVR since it wants at least 8 > ohms and can't do anything with these low ohm speakers. > - The Lepai needs more gain to work with - when the setup was connected > to my digital power supply it never pulled more than .4 amps. When you > turn the Lepai's volume knob from zero it will amplify about half way up > the dial and beyond that there's no increase in sound. > > Here's where I think this is headed - two options: > > 1 - Buy a good DAC with a pre-amp stage to boost the gain. > 2 - Pitch the whole Klipsch system and replace it with 8 ohm satellites > and a real sub. > 3 - Just buy another K. Promedia setup and stop getting fancy. > > By the way, the reason I went through all of this is because I made the > fundamental mistake of wiring the Klipsch system into my walls. That was > a great strategy until it failed. It's in a small reading/listening room > which is a great place to chill but doesn't need a lot of punch. I just > didn't want to tear everything out and was looking for a quick fix I > could pull off with the existing wiring. Lesson learned. > > The SB is a fantastic device - anyone with a Classic or Touch that has a > nice, small-area solution I'm all ears. when you mention that the sats are "showing around 4.3 ohm" are you measuring them? Speaker impedance is frequency dependent, you can't measure it with an ohm meter. In fact, a speaker on it's own is practically a DC short circuit, as it is just a coil of wire. It is true that the wire has a resistance per unit length. I wouldn't worry about the receiver wanting 8 ohms, and you giving it, say 4. You will just be making it work harder. In fact if you use the A+B speaker setting with 2 pair of 8 ohm speakers, the receiver is seeing 4 ohms. It still sounds to me that there is an active circuit in the satellites in between the lepai and the actual speaker itself (if its a single mid/high driver). If it is a little two way (separate high and mid) and there is some sort of active circuit in between the sat "in" and the actual sat speaker drivers. The fact that the klipsch system accepted the audio source into the sattelites (which have a volume control) and then sent the bass signal to the old sub, makes me think this is the case. 33267 ok, I just found the manual. This is different from the altec lansing system I messed up. I can see why you would think this would work. each satelite has actual speaker hookups, and one of the sats has a preamp. We are assuming that a 2.1 amp is in the sub box. with your hookup you are assuming that you don't need the path through the sat preamp. When you say low volume, it is both the sub and the sat volumes that are low? Is there any difference in the sound between the sat with the preamp and the one without? Have you completely disconnected the sat preamp cables (only speaker wires hooked to sats)? If you hookup the sb3 to just the lirpa, do you get good clean bass volume with the gain turned up? In other words, the klisch out of the picture) Jim Jim +---+ |Filename: 2021-02-06 16_34_15-ProMedia21OwnersManualRev2012_63504212216205.pdf.png| |Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33267| +---+ Redrum's Profile:
Re: [slim] SB and Low Volume on Klipsch Promedia Setup
Here's what I've done so far. I'm using the following hookups. Signal is Analog RCA from the SB Classic to the Lepai. Klipsch satellites are RCA connected to the Lepai using its volume control. The SB is set to 100%. The Klipsch sub is 5.7 ohm and the each satellite is showing around 4.3 ohm. This is what I did so far: - Switched out the Lepai - no difference; both Lepai amps perform the same. - Hooked up another dc power supply (not my hacked laptop charger) rated at 19vdc and 3.9amps - no difference - Hooked up a digital DC power supply fixed at 22vdc (the max rated voltage for the Lepai) with floating current so the amp could draw what it needed - no difference - Took the SB out of the system and replaced it with a Yamaha radio for the source - music was louder but still not much more so - maxed out it about a background comfortable level. - Hooked the Klipsch satellites to a Sony AVR along with the subwoofer (using the mono sub output to one sub RCA input - tried both right and left) with input from the SB to the CD in channel - I can crank up the volume but the sounds is simply awful (muffled and distorted and the woofer just chuffs along incoherently. Here's what I think I've learned. - No issue with my SB Classic - it seems to be working fine. - No issue with my hacked laptop charger - it's putting out precisely 19vdc and will ramp up current when demanded (I hooked it to a light strip to check). - I can't test anything with the Sony AVR since it wants at least 8 ohms and can't do anything with these low ohm speakers. - The Lepai needs more gain to work with - when the setup was connected to my digital power supply it never pulled more than .4 amps. When you turn the Lepai's volume knob from zero it will amplify about half way up the dial and beyond that there's no increase in sound. Here's where I think this is headed - two options: 1 - Buy a good DAC with a pre-amp stage to boost the gain. 2 - Pitch the whole Klipsch system and replace it with 8 ohm satellites and a real sub. 3 - Just buy another K. Promedia setup and stop getting fancy. By the way, the reason I went through all of this is because I made the fundamental mistake of wiring the Klipsch system into my walls. That was a great strategy until it failed. It's in a small reading/listening room which is a great place to chill but doesn't need a lot of punch. I just didn't want to tear everything out and was looking for a quick fix I could pull off with the existing wiring. Lesson learned. The SB is a fantastic device - anyone with a Classic or Touch that has a nice, small-area solution I'm all ears. traderyoda's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=30878 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=113854 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] SB and Low Volume on Klipsch Promedia Setup
would be to run the sb into the lipa (which will control the sub as intended) and try to run the "speaker out" of the lipa into the satellites, or, if you have another speaker(s) handy, just to test. Then control the volume from the lipa. Continuing to think, you might have three gain stages in the signal path, the sb volume (if not 100%), the sat, and the lipa Jim Redrum's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=33806 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=113854 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] SB and Low Volume on Klipsch Promedia Setup
chill wrote: > In the past I've made the mistake of assuming that more power equals > more gain. I'm no expert, but my understanding is that although more > power would be needed to drive an amplifier that has more gain, for an > amplifier that has a certain gain, more power simply allows for less > distortion. Too little power for an amplifier with a given gain will > lead to distortion. So if you're hearing clean, undistorted sound but > at a low volume, I doubt that would be because of the power supply. It > points more to the input signal being too low (which is what the output > caps thread is about). > > I'm happy to be corrected by those with more knowledge. I read this thread, went away, thought about it, then return, and @chill had replied. My thoughts exactly. No distortion is the key. It sounds like a gain issue, or more specifically, and impedance mismatch. I am not familiar with your klipsh 2.1 speaker setup, but it looks like the typical "computer speaker system". I had an altec lansing system back in the day. I remember trying to use the subwoofer for something else and gave up because there seemed to be additional control wiring that I didn't know what to do with. I never got it to work right. I just could never figure out what do do with the extra wires :) It seems like your klipsch system takes the line in signal into the satellites, which have a volume and bass attenuator, then the signal is fed to the sub. The sub (on the kilpsch) has no attenuation? But now the lipa does. How do you have it hooked up? If you have the sb3 into the sattelites then the attenuated signal into the sub, that could be your problem, even if one of the two volumes is turned up full, it is still a possible impedence mismatch. I think your extra receiver experiment might be revealing Jim Redrum's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=33806 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=113854 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] SB and Low Volume on Klipsch Promedia Setup
In the past I've made the mistake of assuming that more power equals more gain. I'm no expert, but my understanding is that although more power would be needed to drive an amplifier that has more gain, for an amplifier that has a certain gain, more power simply allows for less distortion. Too little power for an amplifier with a given gain will lead to distortion. So if you're hearing clean, undistorted sound but at a low volume, I doubt that would be because of the power supply. It points more to the input signal being too low (which is what the output caps thread is about). I'm happy to be corrected by those with more knowledge. chill's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10839 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=113854 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] SB and Low Volume on Klipsch Promedia Setup
Heuer wrote: > Here is the capacitor repair thread: > https://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?103213-Squeezebox-3-common-faults-over-time > > if you don't want to mess with the caps then you can use the digital > output via a DAC to the amp. I use a Topping E30 but others have used > the Behringer DAC > https://www.amazon.co.uk/Behringer-UCA202-U-Control-low-latency-Interface/dp/B000KW2YEI/ref=psdc_407821031_t1_B0023BYDHK Great tips. I actually have two Lepai unit. I'll try hooking my DC power supply up first set at 22vdc and let the amp draw whatever amps it needs - that should eliminate my hacked power supply as the culprit. If power isn't the issue I'll swap out the Lepai with another and see if it's a cap or other discrete component issue on the amp. It's possible that this little plate amp needs more gain to work with - is should have plenty of power to crank the Promedia equipment to at least comfortable levels. My bet is power supply - converting a charger to a DC power supply is an iffy business as I have no clue how the control circuitry does and what happens when you isolate the sense wire. Will report back! traderyoda's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=30878 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=113854 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] SB and Low Volume on Klipsch Promedia Setup
Here is the capacitor repair thread: https://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?103213-Squeezebox-3-common-faults-over-time if you don't want to mess with the caps then you can use the digital output via a DAC to the amp. I use a Topping E30 but others have used the Behringer DAC https://www.amazon.co.uk/Behringer-UCA202-U-Control-low-latency-Interface/dp/B000KW2YEI/ref=psdc_407821031_t1_B0023BYDHK Heuer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2543 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=113854 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] SB and Low Volume on Klipsch Promedia Setup
traderyoda wrote: > I have a SB Classic hooked to a Klipsch Promedia 2.1 setup. This has > provided good quality sound for a long time but the amp in the subwoofer > burned up. This is typical failure mode for the Promedia system. Rather > that replace/repair the Klipsch amp I thought to replace it with a Lepai > LP210PA 2x30W + 60W 2.1 plate amp. > > To power the Lepai I used a 20vdc HP laptop charger which should provide > plenty of power. I converted the charger (3 wire cord) to a dc power > supply (2 wire cord). The power plug on the charger has red (+), black > (-), and blue (sense) the blue wire is meant to send the laptops > battery state back to the charger. I isolated the blue wire and just > connected the remain + and wires to a new power plug that fits the > Lepai. > > The switchover to the Lepai was quick and easy. When I turned it on the > sound quality was excellent but with very little volume. The SB is set > to 100% output. > > Im confused because this Lepai conversion has been done by others and > it should have plenty of juice to produce more volume than this. Not > sure though if others were feeding a signal from a SB Classic. > > Is there any way to up the gain on the SB? > > I do have a spare Sony receiver I could try and a DC power supply to see > my 20vdc hacked power brick is just not delivering enough power. > Thoughts?Try using another source to feed the amplifier to rule that out. Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk slartibartfast's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=35609 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=113854 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] SB and Low Volume on Klipsch Promedia Setup
Could be the output capacitors have failed which causes volume loss. Easy DIY fix if you search on the Forum for instructions. Heuer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2543 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=113854 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[slim] SB and Low Volume on Klipsch Promedia Setup
I have a SB Classic hooked to a Klipsch Promedia 2.1 setup. This has provided good quality sound for a long time but the amp in the subwoofer burned up. This is typical failure mode for the Promedia system. Rather that replace/repair the Klipsch amp I thought to replace it with a Lepai LP210PA 2x30W + 60W 2.1 plate amp. To power the Lepai I used a 20vdc HP laptop charger which should provide plenty of power. I converted the charger (3 wire cord) to a dc power supply (2 wire cord). The power plug on the charger has red (+), black (-), and blue (sense) the blue wire is meant to send the laptops battery state back to the charger. I isolated the blue wire and just connected the remain + and wires to a new power plug that fits the Lepai. The switchover to the Lepai was quick and easy. When I turned it on the sound quality was excellent but with very little volume. The SB is set to 100% output. Im confused because this Lepai conversion has been done by others and it should have plenty of juice to produce more volume than this. Not sure though if others were feeding a signal from a SB Classic. Is there any way to up the gain on the SB? I do have a spare Sony receiver I could try and a DC power supply to see my 20vdc hacked power brick is just not delivering enough power. Thoughts? traderyoda's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=30878 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=113854 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
