Re: [slim] What's the Connection? Community and Logitech
jp73;647568 Wrote: I hope not, this will only make the serversoftware heavier, and create more problems, they need to get a squeezeserver version that is simple and does what it needs to do for the squuezeboxes It will be like windows bloatware (no offence windows users :-)) I agree, but that's where it is headed. :( Maybe they will offer an audio only version (no video crap), or some way to disable all video related bloat. Dunno. LMS could be a blessing in that if (and that is a BIG if) Logitech actually comes out with a decent and good selling video device it could breath life back into the SqueezeBox side (SBS/LMS, hardware, MySB, etc..). Or, LMS + another failed video device like the Revue could drag the entire streaming portion of Logitech into extinction. Who knows. We wait.. we see. -- toby10 toby10's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12553 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=89142 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What's the Connection? Community and Logitech
toby10;644777 Wrote: So much so that it looks like the next major release of SBS will be renamed LMS and will probably tie in with video products, Revue and others. ;) I hope not, this will only make the serversoftware heavier, and create more problems, they need to get a squeezeserver version that is simple and does what it needs to do for the squuezeboxes It will be like windows bloatware (no offence windows users :-)) -- jp73 jp73's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34285 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=89142 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What's the Connection? Community and Logitech
kmr;644618 Wrote: With regards to 7.6, I have no idea if it will turn out to be a disaster or not for the Squeezebox line [...]There have been other painful slimserver/squeezecenter/squeezeboxserver releases in the past. My personal low was with 7.4. Yes, 7.6 is a little rough around the edges and a complete show-stopper for some folks. For me (and this is due to quirks in my library) the 7.6 svn version 31900 from March is what I've stuck with. My squeezeboxes (Transporter, SB3, SBBoom, SBRadio, SBTouch, squeezeslave) have never worked better than with that version and that's what I'm running today. Andy managed to fix A LOT of stuff that had been bugging me for years. -- gharris999 gharris999's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=115 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=89142 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What's the Connection? Community and Logitech
Personally I have the impression that 7.6 was the retiring CEO's farewell gift to Logitech! FWIW: we learned about the CEO leaving only hours before you did. And surely days after we released 7.6. -- Michael ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What's the Connection? Community and Logitech
The ongoing 7.6 fiasco set me thinking. Just what is the connection between this Forum and Logitech? Just seems that some posters here seem to have 'insider' knowledge, and certainly the Logitech support staff often direct queries here. Ok, here's my attempt of a reply: These forums were built when SlimDevices was an independent company. It was the main communication channel between SD and its clients. Some of us would probably remember the times when all of this was still run on mailing lists, and there were heated debates whether a web based solution would be better to communicate with the community... Years after Logitech acquired SD, they wanted to move everything over to the official forums.logitech.com site, as a single point of contact. We were able to convince them that this was a poor plan, because a.) some community members are extremely helpful and more knowledgeable than any hired support agent would ever be, b.) the official forum software is lacking in features, c.) there was no way they could handle the traffic of this forum, let alone import the history, d.) this was much more than a support channel. It's a community. A lot of the postings aren't support requests, but discussions among community members. Thus it was decided that forums.slimdevices.com would stay as the community forums, with no official logitech representatives, while over at logitech.com support would be monitoring reports. As some might have learned, even support accepts the community as more knowledgeable and often refers clients over here... -- Michael ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What's the Connection? Community and Logitech
castalla;644561 Wrote: An official release usually implies that it won't totally reduce the end-user's system to chaos. If it does, then a rapid retraction and apology is in order together with clear instructions on how to recover from the ruins of chaos!.. You have to also understand it is not just the developers involved in the decision to release products (hardware software), sales marketing are involved. Developers would prefer no new products for two years so the existing product can be fine tuned and tweaked. Sales marketing want a new product out every quarter to boost revenue. I'm way over generalizing but you get the point. :) So I'd bet sales management pressed for the release of SBS 7.6 way before it was ready. Based on the recent info regarding Logitech (bad earnings, CEO departs, bumbling Revue price slashed, etc...) I'd bet sales management is scrambling to stop the bleeding and SBS 7.6 is a part of that optimistic solution. So much so that it looks like the next major release of SBS will be renamed LMS and will probably tie in with video products, Revue and others. ;) -- toby10 toby10's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12553 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=89142 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[slim] What's the Connection? Community and Logitech
The ongoing 7.6 fiasco set me thinking. Just what is the connection between this Forum and Logitech? Just seems that some posters here seem to have 'insider' knowledge, and certainly the Logitech support staff often direct queries here. I think some clarificaton of any 'relationships' would be useful for many users. -- castalla castalla's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15624 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=89142 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What's the Connection? Community and Logitech
castalla;644551 Wrote: The ongoing 7.6 fiasco set me thinking. Just what is the connection between this Forum and Logitech? Just seems that some posters here seem to have 'insider' knowledge, and certainly the Logitech support staff often direct queries here. I think some clarificaton of any 'relationships' would be useful for many users. Why do you care? This is NOT the official Logitech support forum; AndyG and Michael Herger are Logitech employees / devs who post here as does Mickey Gee (occasionally). A lot of vital work goes through this forum in terms of beta testing software and hardware. Also, third-party plugins are supported through here. Some of us have been on here for many years and have an in-depth knowledge of various aspects of the products. This is a self-help forum and one of the best of its kind IME. It is NOT the place for unproductive emotional rants or moaning about bugs or other matters - that should go on the official forum. What else do you need to know? -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal... Touch(wired/XP) - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Belden Digital,Kimber 8TC Speaker Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables Stax4070+SRM7/II phones Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything. Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=89142 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What's the Connection? Community and Logitech
Thanks. The total lack of any responses to posts on the Logitech Forum to the 7.6 mess suggests to me that they are either in shock or denial. I don't take kindly to responses which claim greybeard status and implicitly question 'What you complaining about, whippersnapper ... ?' If you are so experienced in beta testing how the heck did you not advise that an official release of 7.6 should be delayed? I have an earlier iteration of 7.6 on an arm machine - no problems co-existing with the 7.5.5 on Windows An official release usually implies that it won't totally reduce the end-user's system to chaos. If it does, then a rapid retraction and apology is in order together with clear instructions on how to recover from the ruins of chaos! Just my 2 (euro)cents worh. -- castalla castalla's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15624 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=89142 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What's the Connection? Community and Logitech
castalla;644561 Wrote: If you are so experienced in beta testing how the heck did you not advise that an official release of 7.6 should be delayed? There was no opportunity given. In the past a release candidate was proposed and time was given to highlight possible issues. AFAICT 7.6 was released without a release candidate or any warning that release was due. -- bpa bpa's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1806 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=89142 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What's the Connection? Community and Logitech
Thanks. Explains some of the issues Personally I have the impression that 7.6 was the retiring CEO's farewell gift to Logitech! -- castalla castalla's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15624 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=89142 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What's the Connection? Community and Logitech
castalla;644576 Wrote: Personally I have the impression that 7.6 was the retiring CEO's farewell gift to Logitech! I think it's much more likely that the departing CEO doesn't know what a Squeezebox is. Or at least what it does. -- aubuti aubuti's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2074 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=89142 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What's the Connection? Community and Logitech
These forums were the original Slim Devices forums and were taken over by Logitech when they purchased Slim Devices in 2006. They've been kept going mostly by members of the Squeezebox development team since then. As the Squeezebox development team has dwindled so has Logitech's participation in the forums. -- JJZolx JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=89142 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What's the Connection? Community and Logitech
castalla;644561 Wrote: The total lack of any responses to posts on the Logitech Forum to the 7.6 mess suggests to me that they are either in shock or denial. Logitech is a big company who doesn't prioritize talking to customers in public. Not much different than other big companies. Apple silently denied the iPhone antenna problem for months, and similar scenarios can probably also be seen on a lot of other big companies. Logitech not answering in the official support forum or this community forum doesn't mean they don't help users, there are varied experience with contacting their support, some good some really bad, but every one that registers a support case will get some kind of answer on his/her issue and can be sure someone is working on investigating it. So if you want support, you need to register a support case. Logitech is traditionally a hardware company, their developers, especially those involved in Squeezebox, understand software development but there are IMHO strong indications that their management doesn't. castalla;644561 Wrote: I don't take kindly to responses which claim greybeard status and implicitly question 'What you complaining about, whippersnapper ... ?' Just be aware of that you probably have never seen such response from any Logitech employee. When reading the official support forum it's important to realize that there are also normal users like you and me over there trying to answer questions and some of us sometimes gets frustrated and give bad responses because we aren't trained support personnel. We are just tired of all complaints and tired of Logitech not doing proper testing of their products. castalla;644561 Wrote: If you are so experienced in beta testing how the heck did you not advise that an official release of 7.6 should be delayed? 1. The release was a surprise to us so we really didn't get the chance, I think no one expected them to suddenly release 7.6 it felt like the release was at least a month away, probably more. 2. We did indicate it didn't work, I think there were only one beta tester that argue that something should be released soon and as I've understood that person hadn't even tried 7.6 so IMHO he didn't really know what he was talking about in this case. 3. I personally suspect that not even the Logitech developers sometimes available on this forum was involved in the release decision. I'm 99% sure none of them would recommend their management to release the product at the state they knew it was before the release. It's important to realize that Logitech is a big corporation and sometimes the communication between different parts doesn't really seem to work particularly good. castalla;644561 Wrote: An official release usually implies that it won't totally reduce the end-user's system to chaos. If it does, then a rapid retraction and apology is in order together with clear instructions on how to recover from the ruins of chaos! I think more or less every community member and every Logitech developer available on this forum agree with you, almost none of the beta testers would have recommended Logitech to release 7.6. However, Logitech's strategy to keep mysqueezebox.com in sync with SBS makes it really hard to revert a release when it has been done, because it will be chaos also if they revert 7.6 because: - If they keep mysqueezebox.com at 7.6, users rolling back 7.5 are going to be asked to upgrade their firmware when they switch to mysqueezebox.com. - If they rollback mysqueezebox.com to 7.5, users which have upgraded to 7.6 and is happy with it, is going to be asked to downgrade their firmware to 7.5 as soon as they switch to mysqueezebox.com. So based on this I think: - The only way for Logitech to solve this mess is to release a 7.6.1 version that works as soon as possible. - We will never see any public apologies, Logitech doesn't communicate with end users that way, never have, never will. - The management within Logitech might not even know it's a problem, because as previously said, the communication between different parts really doesn't work. I believe it's a lot bigger chance the management get to know there is a problem if everyone picks up the phone and call their official support so it's completely overloaded with angry customers. - Complaining on this community forum is completely pointless, there is no one from Logitech reading and forwarding these complains to the management within Logitech. Some of the Logitech developers will see the complains, because they do sometimes read this forum, but the only thing the complaints are going to accomplish is making the developers more frustrated, less happy with their management and all this will just make it even harder for them to focus at fixing all the bugs so we can get a 7.6.1 release. Complain to the official Logitech support or the official support forum is a completely different matter, that will raise the chance of someone within the
Re: [slim] What's the Connection? Community and Logitech
erland;644611 Wrote: Logitech is a big company who doesn't prioritize talking to customers in public. Not much different than other big companies. Apple silently denied the iPhone antenna problem for months, and similar scenarios can probably also be seen on a lot of other big companies. erland, with all due respect, I think you're barking up the wrong tree with respect to the iPhone's so-called antenna problem. There were pretty conclusive demonstrations by Apple and third parties that just about any phone can be held in such a way to block parts of the antenna. It was really pretty overblown. With regards to 7.6, I have no idea if it will turn out to be a disaster or not for the Squeezebox line, but if it hurts Squeezebox sales the way the so-called iPhone antenna problem has impacted iPhone 4 sales, then Logitech will be laughing all the way to the bank. -- kmr kmr's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10664 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=89142 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] What's the Connection? Community and Logitech
kmr;644618 Wrote:
erland, with all due respect, I think you're barking up the wrong tree
with respect to the iPhone's so-called antenna problem. There were
pretty conclusive demonstrations by Apple and third parties that just
about any phone can be held in such a way to block parts of the
antenna. It was really pretty overblown.
I agree, it might have been a bad example, I was just trying to say
that big companies usually don't talk to the public before they have a
solution to the problem, many of them don't talk about problems in
public at all, because it's bad for the business to admit you've done
something wrong, especially when you can't offer a solution that will
fix the issues.
Apple more or less silently denied the problem until they knew what was
causing it, had a comparison with other phones and had a solution to it
by offering free cases to everyone who was affected by the problem.
However, I do believe they handled it nicely in the end, because to me
it just showed me that they really care about the experience their
customers get. In comparison, Logitech continues to show more or less
visible that they don't care about my music experience. The only people
within Logitech that sometimes do show that they care are the Logitech
developers available on this community forum.
--
erland
Erland Isaksson ('My homepage' (http://erland.isaksson.info))
(Developer of 'many plugins/applets'
(http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/User:Erland). If my answer
helped you and you like to encourage future presence on this forum
and/or third party plugin/applet development, 'donations are always
appreciated' (http://erland.isaksson.info/donate))
erland's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3124
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