Re: [slim] Native AAC Support
Nonreality;410827 Wrote: It's a nightmare for you to listen to but you still use AAC? I think you might have misread me. I said that music training makes it a nightmare to listen to off-key vocals, etc. I also said that I can hear compression artifacts in any lossy encoding at any rate I've tried (and even a few that are out-of-spec.) I didn't say that AAC is a nightmare to listen to. :) That aside for the moment, the only reason I even use AAC is because it is the most sonically transparent of the lossy options available for a reasonable number of portable players. Were iPods to have gigabytes upon gigabytes of solid-state storage I'd be off of AAC and using only lossless faster than you could say Go! :D -- jeremygray jeremygray's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=29143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=19155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Native AAC Support
Nonreality;410414 Wrote: Of course, of course. I'm sure no one here would think that you would use any of those other lowly formats. Just think of the humiliation if that wasn't so. :) It would be awful! I can't bare to think about it. -- Ron F. *Squeezebox setup:* wireless SB3 - CI Audio VDA.2 DAC + VAC.1 PSU *Main rig:* NAD 7600 + NAD 2600A - Phase Tech PC-6.5 speakers *Headphone rig:* Headroom Max - Sennheiser 650s *Music Server:* Nano-ITX computer running SlimCD + 750 GByte HDD - Netgear wireless router *Other stuff:* NAD C542 CDP, NAD 6300 Tape, Monster 5100 Power conditioner, Outlaw Audio cables Ron F.'s Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5616 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=19155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Native AAC Support
Nonreality;410415 Wrote: From my experience and readings on hydrogenaudio.org what you are saying is true up to about 160kbs. When you get into the higher bit rates you really can't tell any difference between mp3, ogg or aac. There may be differences in size but it's really not much at all. Try it and see. A 256 mp3 is going to sound every bit as good as a 256 aac or ogg. Personally, I find 64K MP3 to be truly awful - I have to turn it off. 128K WMA or AAC to be listenable for an extended period of time, if not equivalent to a quality FM broadcast. 192K - any format - to be hard to distinguish from lossless. So, when making compressed files - I opt for 192K Vorbis. -Ron -- Ron F. *Squeezebox setup:* wireless SB3 - CI Audio VDA.2 DAC + VAC.1 PSU *Main rig:* NAD 7600 + NAD 2600A - Phase Tech PC-6.5 speakers *Headphone rig:* Headroom Max - Sennheiser 650s *Music Server:* Nano-ITX computer running SlimCD + 750 GByte HDD - Netgear wireless router *Other stuff:* NAD C542 CDP, NAD 6300 Tape, Monster 5100 Power conditioner, Outlaw Audio cables Ron F.'s Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5616 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=19155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Native AAC Support
i do 256kbps mp3s, lame 3.96.1 and higher, at -q1 i don't believe i could reliably tell the difference between them, and a CD, in a proper double blind test, and i'd be willing to bet most people here couldn't either. in fact, if the mp3s were just a wee bit louder than the cds, i bet they'd pick the mp3s all day long... (due to a psychoacoustic effect where the ear prefers louder sound) even if someone could tell the difference reliably, in order to do so, you'd need the best equipment AND environment to do so, and the further question would be HOW MUCH BETTER is the difference? meaning, how would you quantify/qualify it? for most peoples purposes, that are less than ideal, i think a HQ mp3, such as mine, more than suffice. (i would agree however, that there are other good reasons to use FLAC, or what have you...) -- MrSinatra www.lion-radio.org using: sb2 (my home) / sbr (parent's home) / sbc (my home) - w/sc 7.3.3b - win xp pro sp3 ie8 - 3.2ghz / 2gig ram - 1tb wd usb2 raid - d-link dir-655 MrSinatra's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=19155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Native AAC Support
probedb;410513 Wrote: To you at least. Am currently at -V3 with LAME and can't tell the difference with the source for most tracks. To you at least. :) I can hear the compression artifacts in any MP3 or AAC bitrate (even 320). Too many years of music training, I suppose. Makes it a nightmare to listen to off-key vocals (though tuned vocals drive me even crazier :D), lazy drummers (OMG! These hi-hat 16ths are too fast! I'd best slow down the entire band for this section of the song!), etc. Suffice it to say that there really are only two safe recommendations us users can make to one another: 1. keep a losslessly-compressed copy of your sources somewhere so you can recompress at will. 2. Use whatever lossy format/rate works for _your_ears_. Back to AAC for a moment: Bring on the FF/RW! I've just started with Squeezcenter recently and haven't yet done all my various transcoding to work with it best. In the meantime, I'd love to be able to seek within my AAC files. -- jeremygray jeremygray's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=29143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=19155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Native AAC Support
It's a nightmare for you to listen to but you still use AAC? -- Nonreality -IF THE RULE YOU FOLLOWED BROUGHT YOU TO THIS, OF WHAT USE IS THE RULE.- HTTP://www.last.fm/user/nonreality Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=19155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Native AAC Support
pfarrell;410419 Wrote: Its the ten to one compression that sounds terrible. To you at least. Am currently at -V3 with LAME and can't tell the difference with the source for most tracks. -- probedb Paul. 'last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/probedb) probedb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7825 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=19155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Native AAC Support
ianr;410151 Wrote: Now that AACPlus is the defacto for iTunes purchases, has there been any thought given to implementing either native support or at the very least FF/RW functionality for these files? SC 7.3.3 will come with AAC/AAC+ support out of the box, using server-side transcoding using faad2. There will not be native codec support in the players: there is no more space in the firmware. Unfortunately, there will not be FF/RW support in this release. Note that this issue is independent of native codec support as FF/RW functionality is always implemented in SC, not the player. -- awy awy's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7480 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=19155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Native AAC Support
I wonder what's the reasoning behind keeping Vorbis native and transcoding AAC. While I don't use AAC at all and use Vorbis for portable needs... I don't doubt that the market would far prefer the opposite solution. -- gorman gorman's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=56 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=19155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Native AAC Support
gorman;410221 Wrote: I wonder what's the reasoning behind keeping Vorbis native and transcoding AAC. While I don't use AAC at all and use Vorbis for portable needs... I don't doubt that the market would far prefer the opposite solution. Some idle speculation: #8226; Perhaps the AAC/AAC+ decoder would be far larger than the Ogg decoder, so there still wouldn't be space. #8226; Ogg has issues in the amount of memory it uses, especially with lower than 64bit recordings. Perhaps this is the same with AAC/AAC+? and if that's the case, broken native support is going to cause more problems than no native support will. #8226; Perhaps, even with a bug free codec in the firmware, there isn't enough processing power in the SB3/Receiver/Boom to run everything and decode AAC/AAC+ #8226; There is also the time/cost factor in implementing this codec in the firmware. I think the Ogg codec was a fairly simple port as various decoders are readily available as it is. AAC/AAC+ might need extensive reworking from faad2 to make it compatible with the Ubicom processor. I believe it doesn't have a floating point unit, so only integer maths is available. This heavily restricts what a codec can do. So as you can see, there are plenty of possible reasons why AAC/AAC+ and ALAC aren't included in the current lineup of players. Perhaps adding codecs to some future player will be trivial, and everything will be supported natively, who knows! :) -- funkstar funkstar's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2335 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=19155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Native AAC Support
In fact, I was simply wondering. Never thought there were no reasons. Also, it could well be that, back then, with the grand majority of AAC music being DRMed, SD thought useless to implement it natively. The market, in this regard, has changed significantly. -- gorman gorman's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=56 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=19155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Native AAC Support
I believe Spotify uses Ogg Vorbis for its streams, so there's a potential larger use for Vorbis in the future. -- DoomWolf DoomWolf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8839 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=19155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Native AAC Support
Ron F.;410166 Wrote: My own library is in FLAC of course. Of course, of course. I'm sure no one here would think that you would use any of those other lowly formats. Just think of the humiliation if that wasn't so. :) -- Nonreality -IF THE RULE YOU FOLLOWED BROUGHT YOU TO THIS, OF WHAT USE IS THE RULE.- HTTP://www.last.fm/user/nonreality Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=19155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Native AAC Support
samlw;72226 Wrote: I think high-bitrate MP3 is the way I will have to go. In my experience, AAC sounds better and compresses better than MP3 at a given bitrate. So I have a personal preference for AAC over MP3. From my experience and readings on hydrogenaudio.org what you are saying is true up to about 160kbs. When you get into the higher bit rates you really can't tell any difference between mp3, ogg or aac. There may be differences in size but it's really not much at all. Try it and see. A 256 mp3 is going to sound every bit as good as a 256 aac or ogg. -- Nonreality -IF THE RULE YOU FOLLOWED BROUGHT YOU TO THIS, OF WHAT USE IS THE RULE.- HTTP://www.last.fm/user/nonreality Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=19155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Native AAC Support
Nonreality wrote: A 256 mp3 is going to sound every bit as good as a 256 aac or ogg. A flac file, lossless and all that, is only about 700kbs. So any 256kbs is not all that compressed. Its the ten to one compression that sounds terrible. -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Native AAC Support
Hi, Now that AACPlus is the defacto for iTunes purchases, has there been any thought given to implementing either native support or at the very least FF/RW functionality for these files? I really don't want to transcode the files to mp3 (quality loss) or flac (takes up additional space and no SQ benefit). Like it or not, iTMS is the largest online music source, so surely it makes sense to extend the support, no? -- ianr ianr's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13726 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=19155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Native AAC Support
Support for various music encoding formats is one of SqueezeCenters strengths. Because SC is extensible Plugins can make it support any type of file. Unfortunately most NAS systems don't have the processing power to handle plugins and transcoding. This is why I created VortexBox to allow the playing of all types of files and the widest support of plugins. If you really want to use apple files I would recommend VortexBox. If you have Apple file with DRM you will need to play them on an Apple Device. -- agillis rip, tag, get cover artÂ… All you do is insert the CD! http://vortexbox.org agillis Lead Developer VortexBox agillis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21140 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=19155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Native AAC Support
Where I use AAC and AAC+ is not in my own library, but streaming internet radio stations to my SB3. My own library is in FLAC of course. -- Ron F. *Squeezebox setup:* wireless SB3 - CI Audio VDA.2 DAC + VAC.1 PSU *Main rig:* NAD 7600 + NAD 2600A - Phase Tech PC-6.5 speakers *Headphone rig:* Headroom Max - Sennheiser 650s *Music Server:* Nano-ITX computer running SlimCD + 750 GByte HDD - Netgear wireless router *Other stuff:* NAD C542 CDP, NAD 6300 Tape, Monster 5100 Power conditioner, Outlaw Audio cables Ron F.'s Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5616 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=19155 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Native AAC Support
However, I want to store the music uncompressed... (And no, I don't want to install extra software modules like LAME to convert my uncompressed music to high quality MP3!) Then you don't want AAC anyway. And if you've encoded your music with AAC, then you've compressed it. AAC is a compressed file, similar to MP3, merely a different codec. If you want to use a lossless format supported by iTunes, you'll probably have to use Apple Lossless (is that what you meant? Not AAC?), which I presume is supported by iTunes. But if you're willing to accept compression with AAC, there isn't any reason to reject it with MP3. Just find an encoding bit-rate that is acceptable to you. Installing the iTunes-LAME program in iTunes is trivial. Why doesn't the Squeezebox simply support AAC in firmware? Simply? Implementing a codec in firmware is probably not a trivial task. And since AAC is a lossy codec just as MP3 is, there isn't a lot of reason to do it, especially with MP3 being a more universally supported encoding method. As for Apple Lossless, it is not widely used. I'm a big Apple/Mac fan and user, but I use FLAC, not Apple Lossless. Basically, I conclude that there isn't enough demand and other tasks are higher priority. Kevin -- Kevin O. Lepard Happiness is being 100% Microsoft free. ___ Discuss mailing list Discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/discuss
