Re: [discuss] thanks, quick question
On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 20:06, Lars D. Noodén wrote: > On Sun, 30 Oct 2005, Daniel Carrera wrote: > [snip] > > > Microsoft is not claiming patents on any processes necessary to read or > > write .doc files. They just keep the format closed, change it on every > > release, and leave you to guess how it works. > > [snip] > > It was my understanding that the company has sw patents on XML > serialization, which is something needed for using *any* XML-based format. > It and other companies have some 3900+ sw patents (valid in the US) on > other XML/SGML related activities: > > > http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2 >Fnetahtml%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=0&f=S&l=50&TERM1=xml&FIELD1=&co1=OR&TERM2=sgm >l&FIELD2=&d=ptxt > > I'm not up on the contents of sw patents, but their could just as easily > be obstacles to the old binary ".doc" formats as well. > > Regardless of sw patents or not the DMCA / EUCD could be invoked to > prevent 'circumvention'. Dmitry Sklyarov was put in jail for > circumventing ROT13. Pure genius. The next time some spook taps your phone, take the government to court for infiringing the copyright of your free speech. Send them to jail to figure out just what in has happened. ;) > Document schemas and compression algorithms are > considerable more complex. > > I suspect what he was getting at was the question, " would third parties > be allowed to read MS formats in the future?" > > -Lars > Lars Nooden ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) > Software patents kill innovation and harm all Net-based business. > Keep them out of the EU by writing your MEP, keep the market open. > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Clinersterton beademung, with all of love - RIP James Blish - Mau e ki, he aha te mea nui? You ask, what is the most important thing? Maku e ki, he tangata, he tangata, he tangata. I reply, it is people, it is people, it is people. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] thanks, quick question
It's legal, but may I ask what prompts you to ask? There must be some origin for the doubt. -Lars Lars Nooden ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Software patents kill innovation and harm all Net-based business. Keep them out of the EU by writing your MEP, keep the market open. On Fri, 28 Oct 2005, Timothy Stockdale wrote: Greetings, Thanks for your product. I was just wondering whether or not this is completely legal. Even using it to open certain Microsoft files? (Word, Powerpoint, Excel) Just checking, this saves a good deal of money for the average person, rather than buying Microsoft Office. I just want to make sure it's legal what I am doing. Thanks again! Timothy Stockdale -- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] thanks, quick question
On Sun, 30 Oct 2005, Daniel Carrera wrote: [snip] Microsoft is not claiming patents on any processes necessary to read or write .doc files. They just keep the format closed, change it on every release, and leave you to guess how it works. [snip] It was my understanding that the company has sw patents on XML serialization, which is something needed for using *any* XML-based format. It and other companies have some 3900+ sw patents (valid in the US) on other XML/SGML related activities: http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=0&f=S&l=50&TERM1=xml&FIELD1=&co1=OR&TERM2=sgml&FIELD2=&d=ptxt I'm not up on the contents of sw patents, but their could just as easily be obstacles to the old binary ".doc" formats as well. Regardless of sw patents or not the DMCA / EUCD could be invoked to prevent 'circumvention'. Dmitry Sklyarov was put in jail for circumventing ROT13. Document schemas and compression algorithms are considerable more complex. I suspect what he was getting at was the question, " would third parties be allowed to read MS formats in the future?" -Lars Lars Nooden ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Software patents kill innovation and harm all Net-based business. Keep them out of the EU by writing your MEP, keep the market open. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] thanks, quick question
Aah, got it! Thanks! No worries then. I just don't trust MS that much. I wanted to get convinced that there are no doc format litigations around the corner. I think it's time for me to sign that open document petition. /$ 2005/10/30, Daniel Carrera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Henrik Sundberg wrote: > > Yes, I think I understand this. But I don't understand why the > > doc-formats are of no concern. > > Can doc-filters be GPL:ed? Why? Are they licensed with more freedom? > > Microsoft is not claiming patents on any processes necessary to read or > write .doc files. They just keep the format closed, change it on every > release, and leave you to guess how it works. > > > If reversed engineering is allowed in this case, how could any format > > license be legally valid? > > I don't understand what you are trying to say. > > Cheers, > Daniel. > -- > DEMAND __ __ __ http://opendocumentfellowship.org/petition/ >| ||__)|__|\ | - Tell Microsoft to support it >|__|| |__| \|DOCUMENT - Sign the petition > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] thanks, quick question
Henrik Sundberg wrote: Yes, I think I understand this. But I don't understand why the doc-formats are of no concern. Can doc-filters be GPL:ed? Why? Are they licensed with more freedom? Microsoft is not claiming patents on any processes necessary to read or write .doc files. They just keep the format closed, change it on every release, and leave you to guess how it works. If reversed engineering is allowed in this case, how could any format license be legally valid? I don't understand what you are trying to say. Cheers, Daniel. -- DEMAND __ __ __ http://opendocumentfellowship.org/petition/ | ||__)|__|\ | - Tell Microsoft to support it |__|| |__| \|DOCUMENT - Sign the petition - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] thanks, quick question
Yes, I think I understand this. But I don't understand why the doc-formats are of no concern. Can doc-filters be GPL:ed? Why? Are they licensed with more freedom? If reversed engineering is allowed in this case, how could any format license be legally valid? /$ 2005/10/30, Giuseppe Bilotta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Sunday, October 30, 2005 Henrik Sundberg wrote: > > > But if this reversed engineering is completely legal, why should the > > license attached to MS Open XML format make it GPL incompatible? > > http://www.microsoft.com/office/xml/licenseoverview.mspx > > In particular > > http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/ip/format/xmlpatentlicense.asp > > reads > > "You are not licensed to sublicense or transfer your > rights." > > which is *exactly* what GPL does. > > -- > Giuseppe "Oblomov" Bilotta > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] thanks, quick question
Sunday, October 30, 2005 Henrik Sundberg wrote: > But if this reversed engineering is completely legal, why should the > license attached to MS Open XML format make it GPL incompatible? http://www.microsoft.com/office/xml/licenseoverview.mspx In particular http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/ip/format/xmlpatentlicense.asp reads "You are not licensed to sublicense or transfer your rights." which is *exactly* what GPL does. -- Giuseppe "Oblomov" Bilotta - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] thanks, quick question
On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 00:51, Henrik Sundberg wrote: > 2005/10/29, Timothy Stockdale <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > Greetings, > > Thanks for your product. I was just wondering whether or not this is > > completely legal. Even using it to open certain Microsoft files? (Word, > > Powerpoint, Excel) > > I'm also uncertain. Is the reversed engineering ,used to construct the > import export filters, completely legal? The problem here is that the term "reverse engineering" describes a way of working out a solution to a given problem - in this case the proprietary file formats of a proprietary office suite. But the ways and methods of "reverse engineering" happen to be the same as used by scientists engaging in scientific enquiry, just applied to a human artifact instead. To outlaw "reverse engineering" completely is to revert to a pre-Olduvan industry, and I doubt most people would like that. "They were saying we should be closed as the Fir, an expression of plant - and they why I'm glad they up on them firs!" Some wisdom on the matter, courtesy of emacs meta x dissociated-press! ;) Wesley Parish > /Henrik > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Clinersterton beademung, with all of love - RIP James Blish - Mau e ki, he aha te mea nui? You ask, what is the most important thing? Maku e ki, he tangata, he tangata, he tangata. I reply, it is people, it is people, it is people. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] thanks, quick question
On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 07:01, Caleb Marcus wrote: > Burn it to a CD, post it to your website... if you are a programmer, you > can even change it. I've been getting a part-time volunteer worker in our Community Centre's cybercaf/community computer training centre to use OO.org, and recently burnt her a CD of OO.org 2.0 for Windows. She's been complaining that it works fine, but the format changes when she brings it in from her home computer to the Community Centre. I've shown her a few tips, which helped quiet some of her earlier complaints about formatting, but she still had some when I burnt a copy of it for her. I hope OO.org 2.0 has already fixed those - if not, I'll get her to describe them as accurately as possible, and pass them on. That's one of the advantages of OO.org - I don't have to engage in license misappropriation to distribute the latest versions - and when I hear about the problems, I can pass them on and know someone will take it seriously enough to do something about it. Wesley Parish > There is nothing illegal about opening Word files in OpenOffice.org. > > Giuseppe Bilotta wrote: > >Saturday, October 29, 2005 Jonathon Blake wrote: > >>Timothy wrote: > >>>whether or not this is completely legal. > >> > >>It is legal to use. > >>You can also sell, or give away as many copies as you want to. > > > >In fact, I would say you are *encouraged* to give away > >copies. Spread the word. It's extremely important that as > >many people as possible know of its existence. -- Clinersterton beademung, with all of love - RIP James Blish - Mau e ki, he aha te mea nui? You ask, what is the most important thing? Maku e ki, he tangata, he tangata, he tangata. I reply, it is people, it is people, it is people. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] thanks, quick question
But if this reversed engineering is completely legal, why should the license attached to MS Open XML format make it GPL incompatible? I suppose it is a lot easier to reversely engineer XML-files than doc files. Is the completely closed doc-format somehow more open than MSO XML? (I do have problems with using common sense on how laws work) /Henrik 2005/10/30, Wesley Parish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 00:51, Henrik Sundberg wrote: > > 2005/10/29, Timothy Stockdale <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > Greetings, > > > Thanks for your product. I was just wondering whether or not this is > > > completely legal. Even using it to open certain Microsoft files? (Word, > > > Powerpoint, Excel) > > > > I'm also uncertain. Is the reversed engineering ,used to construct the > > import export filters, completely legal? > > The problem here is that the term "reverse engineering" describes a way of > working out a solution to a given problem - in this case the proprietary file > formats of a proprietary office suite. > > But the ways and methods of "reverse engineering" happen to be the same as > used by scientists engaging in scientific enquiry, just applied to a human > artifact instead. > > To outlaw "reverse engineering" completely is to revert to a pre-Olduvan > industry, and I doubt most people would like that. "They were saying we > should be closed as the Fir, an expression of plant - and they why I'm glad > they up on them firs!" Some wisdom on the matter, courtesy of emacs meta x > dissociated-press! ;) > > Wesley Parish > > /Henrik > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- > Clinersterton beademung, with all of love - RIP James Blish > - > Mau e ki, he aha te mea nui? > You ask, what is the most important thing? > Maku e ki, he tangata, he tangata, he tangata. > I reply, it is people, it is people, it is people. > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] thanks, quick question
I don't think so, but I am not a lawyer. What I do know is that MANY commercial and non-commercial (like this one) programs can do it, and they still exist. The software isn't illegal, and you don't have to use the Microsoft formats. In fact, unless you need to send files to someone else, use the included OpenDocument format. It makes much smaller files, cannot contain viruses, and is a completely open standard. Henrik Sundberg wrote: 2005/10/29, Timothy Stockdale <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: Greetings, Thanks for your product. I was just wondering whether or not this is completely legal. Even using it to open certain Microsoft files? (Word, Powerpoint, Excel) I'm also uncertain. Is the reversed engineering ,used to construct the import export filters, completely legal? /Henrik - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] thanks, quick question
Burn it to a CD, post it to your website... if you are a programmer, you can even change it. There is nothing illegal about opening Word files in OpenOffice.org. Giuseppe Bilotta wrote: Saturday, October 29, 2005 Jonathon Blake wrote: Timothy wrote: whether or not this is completely legal. It is legal to use. You can also sell, or give away as many copies as you want to. In fact, I would say you are *encouraged* to give away copies. Spread the word. It's extremely important that as many people as possible know of its existence.
Re: [discuss] thanks, quick question
2005/10/29, Timothy Stockdale <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Greetings, > Thanks for your product. I was just wondering whether or not this is > completely legal. Even using it to open certain Microsoft files? (Word, > Powerpoint, Excel) I'm also uncertain. Is the reversed engineering ,used to construct the import export filters, completely legal? /Henrik - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] thanks, quick question
Saturday, October 29, 2005 Jonathon Blake wrote: > Timothy wrote: >>whether or not this is completely legal. > It is legal to use. > You can also sell, or give away as many copies as you want to. In fact, I would say you are *encouraged* to give away copies. Spread the word. It's extremely important that as many people as possible know of its existence. -- Giuseppe "Oblomov" Bilotta - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [discuss] thanks, quick question
Timothy wrote: >whether or not this is completely legal. It is legal to use. You can also sell, or give away as many copies as you want to. xan joanthon -- Does your Office Suite conform to ISO Standards?
