Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] lack of understanding the different formats to store samples

[Nikos Balkanas]

IQ files are binary files with the raw stream and no headers. Depending on
sample resolution, these are complex pairs of either floats or bytes.
Conversion of bytes to floats is given by the code:

float f;
byte b;

f = (b - 127)/128;

HTH
Nikos




On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 4:04 PM, Henry Barton  wrote:

> This sounds interesting; I too have been wondering how IQ files worked. I
> thought it must be alternating I bytes and Q bytes, or with >8-bit radios,
> I words and Q words. But maybe the packed byte system is right, since I can
> feed IQ recordings in WAV format directly into GNUradio without stripping
> the headers.
>
>
> > To: ra...@schmid.xxx; discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org
> > From: marcus.muel...@ettus.com
> > Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 10:24:02 +0100
> > Subject: Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] lack of understanding the different
> formats to store samples
> >
> > Ok, let "I" and "Q" be single bits each, so each byte would then be
> >
> > IQIQIQIQ
> >
> > if I had to take a guess.
> >
> > You can get get back something that GR commonly deals with by doing
> >
> > packed to unpacked (type=B, bits per chunk = 1, endianness=your machine)
> > -> IChar to Complex
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Marcus
> > On 16.03.2016 08:13, Ralph A. Schmid, dk5ras wrote:
> > > Each byte seems to contain 4 1 bit I/Q samples. This is the text from
> the
> > > readme:
> > >
> > > "The output file size can be reduced by using "-b 1" option to store
> four
> > > 1-bit I/Q samples into a single byte."
> > >
> > > Ralph.
> > >
> > >> -Original Message-
> > >> From: discuss-gnuradio-bounces+ralph=schmid@gnu.org
> > >> [mailto:discuss-gnuradio-bounces+ralph=schmid@gnu.org] On Behalf
> Of
> > >> Marcus Müller
> > >> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2016 2:53 PM
> > >> To: discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org
> > >> Subject: Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] lack of understanding the different
> > > formats
> > >> to store samples
> > >>
> > >> In what format are your 1bit samples? I'd assume they are just the
> fact
> > >> whether a byte is 0x00 or 0x01; in that case, just use unpacked to
> packed.
> > >>
> > >> On 03/11/2016 10:24 AM, Ralph A. Schmid, dk5ras wrote:
> > >>> Hi,
> > >>>
> > >>> Being an RF guy I must admit that I am somehow lost in the different
> > >>> ways how samples are stored in files. I stumbled over this question
> > >>> when I experimented with https://github.com/osqzss/gps-sdr-sim. It
> > >>> works great when using 16 bit samples and using a simple two-block
> grc
> > >>> file, feeding them directly from a file source to the UHD sink.
> > >>> However the 1 bit variant sounds promising, as the files are much
> > >>> smaller this way and also the generation of them runs much faster.
> > >>>
> > >>> It must only be a matter of finding the right blocks and the right
> > >>> settings to convert this, but my google search was highly confusing,
> > >>> most probably due to different names for the same thing.
> > >>>
> > >>> So I do not only ask for how to use "four 1-bit I/Q samples into a
> > >>> single byte" (taken from the readme of the gps-sdr-sim), but for a
> > >>> more general overview how this stuff is done, to be prepared for
> other
> > >>> upcoming questions of this kind :) Up to now I solved those issues by
> > >>> an educated guess or even by try and error, what is not very
> > > satisfying...
> > >>> Ralph.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> ___
> > >>> Discuss-gnuradio mailing list
> > >>> Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org
> > >>> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio
> > >>
> > >> ___
> > >> Discuss-gnuradio mailing list
> > >> Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org
> > >> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Discuss-gnuradio mailing list
> > Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org
> > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio
>
> ___
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>
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Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] lack of understanding the different formats to store samples

[Ralph A. Schmid, dk5ras]

This works! Thanks a lot!

Ralph.


>-Original Message-
>From: Marcus Müller [mailto:marcus.muel...@ettus.com]
>Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2016 10:24
>To: Ralph A. Schmid, dk5ras; discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org
>Subject: Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] lack of understanding the different formats
to
>store samples
>
>Ok, let "I" and "Q" be single bits each, so each byte would then be
>
>IQIQIQIQ
>
>if I had to take a guess.
>
>You can get get back something that GR commonly deals with by doing
>
>packed to unpacked (type=B, bits per chunk = 1, endianness=your machine)
>-> IChar to Complex
>
>Best regards,
>Marcus
>On 16.03.2016 08:13, Ralph A. Schmid, dk5ras wrote:
>> Each byte seems to contain 4 1 bit I/Q samples. This is the text from
>> the
>> readme:
>>
>> "The output file size can be reduced by using "-b 1" option to store
>> four 1-bit I/Q samples into a single byte."
>>
>> Ralph.
>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: discuss-gnuradio-bounces+ralph=schmid@gnu.org
>>> [mailto:discuss-gnuradio-bounces+ralph=schmid@gnu.org] On Behalf
>>> Of Marcus Müller
>>> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2016 2:53 PM
>>> To: discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] lack of understanding the different
>> formats
>>> to store samples
>>>
>>> In what format are your 1bit samples? I'd assume they are just the
>>> fact whether a byte is 0x00 or 0x01; in that case, just use unpacked to
packed.
>>>
>>> On 03/11/2016 10:24 AM, Ralph A. Schmid, dk5ras wrote:
 Hi,

 Being an RF guy I must admit that I am somehow lost in the different
 ways how samples are stored in files. I stumbled over this question
 when I experimented with https://github.com/osqzss/gps-sdr-sim. It
 works great when using 16 bit samples and using a simple two-block
 grc file, feeding them directly from a file source to the UHD sink.
 However the 1 bit variant sounds promising, as the files are much
 smaller this way and also the generation of them runs much faster.

 It must only be a matter of finding the right blocks and the right
 settings to convert this, but my google search was highly confusing,
 most probably due to different names for the same thing.

 So I do not only ask for how to use "four 1-bit I/Q samples into a
 single byte" (taken from the readme of the gps-sdr-sim), but for a
 more general overview how this stuff is done, to be prepared for
 other upcoming questions of this kind :) Up to now I solved those
 issues by an educated guess or even by try and error, what is not
 very
>> satisfying...
 Ralph.


 ___
 Discuss-gnuradio mailing list
 Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org
 https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org
>>> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio



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Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] lack of understanding the different formats to store samples

[Henry Barton]

This sounds interesting; I too have been wondering how IQ files worked. I 
thought it must be alternating I bytes and Q bytes, or with >8-bit radios, I 
words and Q words. But maybe the packed byte system is right, since I can feed 
IQ recordings in WAV format directly into GNUradio without stripping the 
headers.> To: ra...@schmid.xxx; discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org
> From: marcus.muel...@ettus.com
> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 10:24:02 +0100
> Subject: Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] lack of understanding the different formats 
> to store samples
> 
> Ok, let "I" and "Q" be single bits each, so each byte would then be
> 
> IQIQIQIQ
> 
> if I had to take a guess.
> 
> You can get get back something that GR commonly deals with by doing
> 
> packed to unpacked (type=B, bits per chunk = 1, endianness=your machine)
> -> IChar to Complex
> 
> Best regards,
> Marcus
> On 16.03.2016 08:13, Ralph A. Schmid, dk5ras wrote:
> > Each byte seems to contain 4 1 bit I/Q samples. This is the text from the
> > readme:
> >
> > "The output file size can be reduced by using "-b 1" option to store four
> > 1-bit I/Q samples into a single byte."
> >
> > Ralph.
> >
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: discuss-gnuradio-bounces+ralph=schmid@gnu.org
> >> [mailto:discuss-gnuradio-bounces+ralph=schmid@gnu.org] On Behalf Of
> >> Marcus Müller
> >> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2016 2:53 PM
> >> To: discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org
> >> Subject: Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] lack of understanding the different
> > formats
> >> to store samples
> >>
> >> In what format are your 1bit samples? I'd assume they are just the fact
> >> whether a byte is 0x00 or 0x01; in that case, just use unpacked to packed.
> >>
> >> On 03/11/2016 10:24 AM, Ralph A. Schmid, dk5ras wrote:
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>> Being an RF guy I must admit that I am somehow lost in the different
> >>> ways how samples are stored in files. I stumbled over this question
> >>> when I experimented with https://github.com/osqzss/gps-sdr-sim. It
> >>> works great when using 16 bit samples and using a simple two-block grc
> >>> file, feeding them directly from a file source to the UHD sink.
> >>> However the 1 bit variant sounds promising, as the files are much
> >>> smaller this way and also the generation of them runs much faster.
> >>>
> >>> It must only be a matter of finding the right blocks and the right
> >>> settings to convert this, but my google search was highly confusing,
> >>> most probably due to different names for the same thing.
> >>>
> >>> So I do not only ask for how to use "four 1-bit I/Q samples into a
> >>> single byte" (taken from the readme of the gps-sdr-sim), but for a
> >>> more general overview how this stuff is done, to be prepared for other
> >>> upcoming questions of this kind :) Up to now I solved those issues by
> >>> an educated guess or even by try and error, what is not very
> > satisfying...
> >>> Ralph.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >>> Discuss-gnuradio mailing list
> >>> Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org
> >>> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Discuss-gnuradio mailing list
> >> Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org
> >> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio
> 
> 
> ___
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> Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio
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Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] lack of understanding the different formats to store samples

[Marcus Müller]

Exactly that's the case; the "normal" complex type of GNU Radio is
really just 32bit floats
IQIQIQIQ...
ie. a single complex is nothing but two consecutive floating point numbers.

WAV files come in all types, encodings and storage quantizations.
Typically, the header/tail are much shorter than the data, so if you can
deal with how the data is put into your specific WAV, yeah, ignore the
header.
For everything else, refer to the wav_file_source (which has only
compatibility with very specific WAVs), or learn all the fun that's in
that container format.

Cheers,
Marcus

On 16.03.2016 15:04, Henry Barton wrote:
> This sounds interesting; I too have been wondering how IQ files
> worked. I thought it must be alternating I bytes and Q bytes, or with
> >8-bit radios, I words and Q words. But maybe the packed byte system
> is right, since I can feed IQ recordings in WAV format directly into
> GNUradio without stripping the headers.
>
>
> > To: ra...@schmid.xxx; discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org
> > From: marcus.muel...@ettus.com
> > Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 10:24:02 +0100
> > Subject: Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] lack of understanding the different
> formats to store samples
> >
> > Ok, let "I" and "Q" be single bits each, so each byte would then be
> >
> > IQIQIQIQ
> >
> > if I had to take a guess.
> >
> > You can get get back something that GR commonly deals with by doing
> >
> > packed to unpacked (type=B, bits per chunk = 1, endianness=your machine)
> > -> IChar to Complex
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Marcus
> > On 16.03.2016 08:13, Ralph A. Schmid, dk5ras wrote:
> > > Each byte seems to contain 4 1 bit I/Q samples. This is the text
> from the
> > > readme:
> > >
> > > "The output file size can be reduced by using "-b 1" option to
> store four
> > > 1-bit I/Q samples into a single byte."
> > >
> > > Ralph.
> > >
> > >> -Original Message-
> > >> From: discuss-gnuradio-bounces+ralph=schmid@gnu.org
> > >> [mailto:discuss-gnuradio-bounces+ralph=schmid@gnu.org] On
> Behalf Of
> > >> Marcus Müller
> > >> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2016 2:53 PM
> > >> To: discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org
> > >> Subject: Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] lack of understanding the different
> > > formats
> > >> to store samples
> > >>
> > >> In what format are your 1bit samples? I'd assume they are just
> the fact
> > >> whether a byte is 0x00 or 0x01; in that case, just use unpacked
> to packed.
> > >>
> > >> On 03/11/2016 10:24 AM, Ralph A. Schmid, dk5ras wrote:
> > >>> Hi,
> > >>>
> > >>> Being an RF guy I must admit that I am somehow lost in the different
> > >>> ways how samples are stored in files. I stumbled over this question
> > >>> when I experimented with https://github.com/osqzss/gps-sdr-sim. It
> > >>> works great when using 16 bit samples and using a simple
> two-block grc
> > >>> file, feeding them directly from a file source to the UHD sink.
> > >>> However the 1 bit variant sounds promising, as the files are much
> > >>> smaller this way and also the generation of them runs much faster.
> > >>>
> > >>> It must only be a matter of finding the right blocks and the right
> > >>> settings to convert this, but my google search was highly confusing,
> > >>> most probably due to different names for the same thing.
> > >>>
> > >>> So I do not only ask for how to use "four 1-bit I/Q samples into a
> > >>> single byte" (taken from the readme of the gps-sdr-sim), but for a
> > >>> more general overview how this stuff is done, to be prepared for
> other
> > >>> upcoming questions of this kind :) Up to now I solved those
> issues by
> > >>> an educated guess or even by try and error, what is not very
> > > satisfying...
> > >>> Ralph.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> ___
> > >>> Discuss-gnuradio mailing list
> > >>> Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org
> > >>> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio
> > >>
> > >> ___
> > >> Discuss-gnuradio mailing list
> > >> Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org
> > >> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Discuss-gnuradio mailing list
> > Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org
> > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio
>
>
> ___
> Discuss-gnuradio mailing list
> Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org
> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio

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Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] lack of understanding the different formats to store samples

[Marcus Müller]

Ok, let "I" and "Q" be single bits each, so each byte would then be

IQIQIQIQ

if I had to take a guess.

You can get get back something that GR commonly deals with by doing

packed to unpacked (type=B, bits per chunk = 1, endianness=your machine)
-> IChar to Complex

Best regards,
Marcus
On 16.03.2016 08:13, Ralph A. Schmid, dk5ras wrote:
> Each byte seems to contain 4 1 bit I/Q samples. This is the text from the
> readme:
>
> "The output file size can be reduced by using "-b 1" option to store four
> 1-bit I/Q samples into a single byte."
>
> Ralph.
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: discuss-gnuradio-bounces+ralph=schmid@gnu.org
>> [mailto:discuss-gnuradio-bounces+ralph=schmid@gnu.org] On Behalf Of
>> Marcus Müller
>> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2016 2:53 PM
>> To: discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org
>> Subject: Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] lack of understanding the different
> formats
>> to store samples
>>
>> In what format are your 1bit samples? I'd assume they are just the fact
>> whether a byte is 0x00 or 0x01; in that case, just use unpacked to packed.
>>
>> On 03/11/2016 10:24 AM, Ralph A. Schmid, dk5ras wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Being an RF guy I must admit that I am somehow lost in the different
>>> ways how samples are stored in files. I stumbled over this question
>>> when I experimented with https://github.com/osqzss/gps-sdr-sim. It
>>> works great when using 16 bit samples and using a simple two-block grc
>>> file, feeding them directly from a file source to the UHD sink.
>>> However the 1 bit variant sounds promising, as the files are much
>>> smaller this way and also the generation of them runs much faster.
>>>
>>> It must only be a matter of finding the right blocks and the right
>>> settings to convert this, but my google search was highly confusing,
>>> most probably due to different names for the same thing.
>>>
>>> So I do not only ask for how to use "four 1-bit I/Q samples into a
>>> single byte" (taken from the readme of the gps-sdr-sim), but for a
>>> more general overview how this stuff is done, to be prepared for other
>>> upcoming questions of this kind :) Up to now I solved those issues by
>>> an educated guess or even by try and error, what is not very
> satisfying...
>>> Ralph.
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Discuss-gnuradio mailing list
>>> Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org
>>> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio
>>
>> ___
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>> Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org
>> https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio


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Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] lack of understanding the different formats to store samples

[Ralph A. Schmid, dk5ras]

OK, I will give this a try :) I hoped that there would be some overview, 
explaining the different interconnect formats when connecting gnuradio blocks...

 

Tnx!



Ralph.

 

 

From: Jacob Gilbert [mailto:mrjacobagilb...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2016 3:50 PM
To: Ralph A. Schmid, dk5ras
Cc: GNURadio Discussion List
Subject: Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] lack of understanding the different formats to 
store samples

 

Ralph,

 

If I understand this, each 8-bit byte of data contains four two-bit IQ samples, 
in which case the "Unpack K Bits" block is likely what you are looking for. It 
will treat each bit in a byte (from Byte File Source in this case) as an 
individual item, which can then be type-converted and interleaved to give you 
complex data. There are a couple other tools under the category of "Byte 
Operators" that may be helpful.

 

Jacob

 

On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 2:24 AM, Ralph A. Schmid, dk5ras  > wrote:

Hi,

Being an RF guy I must admit that I am somehow lost in the different ways
how samples are stored in files. I stumbled over this question when I
experimented with https://github.com/osqzss/gps-sdr-sim. It works great when
using 16 bit samples and using a simple two-block grc file, feeding them
directly from a file source to the UHD sink. However the 1 bit variant
sounds promising, as the files are much smaller this way and also the
generation of them runs much faster.

It must only be a matter of finding the right blocks and the right settings
to convert this, but my google search was highly confusing, most probably
due to different names for the same thing.

So I do not only ask for how to use "four 1-bit I/Q samples into a single
byte" (taken from the readme of the gps-sdr-sim), but for a more general
overview how this stuff is done, to be prepared for other upcoming questions
of this kind :) Up to now I solved those issues by an educated guess or even
by try and error, what is not very satisfying...

Ralph.


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Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] lack of understanding the different formats to store samples

[Ralph A. Schmid, dk5ras]

Each byte seems to contain 4 1 bit I/Q samples. This is the text from the
readme:

"The output file size can be reduced by using "-b 1" option to store four
1-bit I/Q samples into a single byte."

Ralph.

> -Original Message-
> From: discuss-gnuradio-bounces+ralph=schmid@gnu.org
> [mailto:discuss-gnuradio-bounces+ralph=schmid@gnu.org] On Behalf Of
> Marcus Müller
> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2016 2:53 PM
> To: discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] lack of understanding the different
formats
> to store samples
> 
> In what format are your 1bit samples? I'd assume they are just the fact
> whether a byte is 0x00 or 0x01; in that case, just use unpacked to packed.
> 
> On 03/11/2016 10:24 AM, Ralph A. Schmid, dk5ras wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Being an RF guy I must admit that I am somehow lost in the different
> > ways how samples are stored in files. I stumbled over this question
> > when I experimented with https://github.com/osqzss/gps-sdr-sim. It
> > works great when using 16 bit samples and using a simple two-block grc
> > file, feeding them directly from a file source to the UHD sink.
> > However the 1 bit variant sounds promising, as the files are much
> > smaller this way and also the generation of them runs much faster.
> >
> > It must only be a matter of finding the right blocks and the right
> > settings to convert this, but my google search was highly confusing,
> > most probably due to different names for the same thing.
> >
> > So I do not only ask for how to use "four 1-bit I/Q samples into a
> > single byte" (taken from the readme of the gps-sdr-sim), but for a
> > more general overview how this stuff is done, to be prepared for other
> > upcoming questions of this kind :) Up to now I solved those issues by
> > an educated guess or even by try and error, what is not very
satisfying...
> >
> > Ralph.
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Discuss-gnuradio mailing list
> > Discuss-gnuradio@gnu.org
> > https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnuradio
> 
> 
> ___
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Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] lack of understanding the different formats to store samples

[Jacob Gilbert]

Ralph,

If I understand this, each 8-bit byte of data contains four two-bit IQ
samples, in which case the "Unpack K Bits" block is likely what you are
looking for. It will treat each bit in a byte (from Byte File Source in
this case) as an individual item, which can then be type-converted and
interleaved to give you complex data. There are a couple other tools under
the category of "Byte Operators" that may be helpful.

Jacob

On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 2:24 AM, Ralph A. Schmid, dk5ras 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Being an RF guy I must admit that I am somehow lost in the different ways
> how samples are stored in files. I stumbled over this question when I
> experimented with https://github.com/osqzss/gps-sdr-sim. It works great
> when
> using 16 bit samples and using a simple two-block grc file, feeding them
> directly from a file source to the UHD sink. However the 1 bit variant
> sounds promising, as the files are much smaller this way and also the
> generation of them runs much faster.
>
> It must only be a matter of finding the right blocks and the right settings
> to convert this, but my google search was highly confusing, most probably
> due to different names for the same thing.
>
> So I do not only ask for how to use "four 1-bit I/Q samples into a single
> byte" (taken from the readme of the gps-sdr-sim), but for a more general
> overview how this stuff is done, to be prepared for other upcoming
> questions
> of this kind :) Up to now I solved those issues by an educated guess or
> even
> by try and error, what is not very satisfying...
>
> Ralph.
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Discuss-gnuradio] lack of understanding the different formats to store samples

[Marcus Müller]

In what format are your 1bit samples? I'd assume they are just the fact
whether a byte is 0x00 or 0x01; in that case, just use unpacked to packed.

On 03/11/2016 10:24 AM, Ralph A. Schmid, dk5ras wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Being an RF guy I must admit that I am somehow lost in the different ways
> how samples are stored in files. I stumbled over this question when I
> experimented with https://github.com/osqzss/gps-sdr-sim. It works great when
> using 16 bit samples and using a simple two-block grc file, feeding them
> directly from a file source to the UHD sink. However the 1 bit variant
> sounds promising, as the files are much smaller this way and also the
> generation of them runs much faster.
>
> It must only be a matter of finding the right blocks and the right settings
> to convert this, but my google search was highly confusing, most probably
> due to different names for the same thing.
>
> So I do not only ask for how to use "four 1-bit I/Q samples into a single
> byte" (taken from the readme of the gps-sdr-sim), but for a more general
> overview how this stuff is done, to be prepared for other upcoming questions
> of this kind :) Up to now I solved those issues by an educated guess or even
> by try and error, what is not very satisfying...
>
> Ralph. 
>
>
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