Re: "Wayland Maker - A Wayland compositor inspired by Window Maker"
sing names that are no longer used by the people who coined the names. It is a huge waste of effort. It's also not helpful to refer to it as OPENSTEP as you did in an article a while back given that Apple no longer mentions that either. Then come up with something better. As is OPENSTEP and NeXTSTEP as you used in that poorly written article. *Angrily* Tell you what, Greg. If you try to stop insulting my work, I won't insult yours. Deal? So stop using those too when referring to GNUstep. Alright? No. All of Apple's frameworks are still written in ObjC. Irrelevant. The question is not "are they going to rewrite the whole thing?" because the answer is "of COURSE not!" The vastly more important question is: how much _new code_ is being written in Obj-C? Also, you'll excuse me if I don't take the word of people on reddit as anything official. Sure. It was the first link I found, nothing more. I have my ear to the ground. I know what's happening. I think you are only hearing the whole story, because your worldview here is radically different to mine. But, PLEASE, as a non- programmer, refrain from telling US (the people writing the actual code) what language we should use as the core part of our frameworks. And AGAIN you misread what I said. I did not say that. I am not even hinting or implying that. You are putting words in my mouth I would never say and that is rude and hostile and it is very hard not to be angered by it. I am not suggesting rewriting a single line. That is absurd. *ALL* I am saying is that you need Swift bindings for GS so that Swift code can be used with GS. That is all. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven IoM: +44 7624 227612 ~ UK: +44 7939-087884 ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
Re: "Wayland Maker - A Wayland compositor inspired by Window Maker"
On 22/07/2024 7:36 pm, Riccardo Mottola wrote: Hi Liam, sometimes I think if it is your mood to be so melodramatic or if yourself have some need or business need and want to satisfy. As I already said, I regretted that post as soon as I saw the replies. But even so: I am trying to tell you folks some truths that you _really do not want to hear_. But there will be Xwayland. And also GNUstep is X11 agnostic. It can run on Windows, remember? Contribute to the wayland backend if you like it so much. Again: Not a programmer. XWayland is around for now, but it's rapidly heading for legacy support status. Yes, you refer to a project which is just some stuff over FreeBS and which needs all the Apple Frameworks. Oh, there is Coca, to your dismay. But just a quick look here: https://github.com/ravynsoft/ravynos/tree/main/Frameworks/AppKit shows the project is doomed. It essentially uses Cocotron, an almost 20 year old, dead codebase which was quite incomplete even back them, targeted only to some specific things. Might be. I have no judgement about it, but it's getting eyes and getting contributions and developing and moving. > Also I may add, I have some doubts that Cocotron is really a clean-room implementation and didn't get from GNUstep, but that is another point Gregory and i had years ago. Could be. But if so, the question is: why? Why would someone take code and take it in a different direction? Does that mean GNUstep didn't do something they wanted? If so, what, and can it do that? Then your knowledge is limited. Those are just the latest and most "NeXT" looking. There are other projects, at various state of completeness and vitality. Do tell. Étoilé is dead. What else? What you think should have been, doesn't matter. We don't need Flatpak. I am not saying you do. I am saying that GNUstep has alreadt built and implemented something better already and the project don't even seem to have noticed it. You just take an app, drag it in your Application folder and it works! Like I said: better than Flatpak. Or Snap, for that matter. I don't see what problem you want to solve. The problem that AppImage, Flatpak and Snap all tried to solve with some degree of success. Yeah.. now let's see how many projects use Swift beyond Apple MacOS or iOS. Does it matter? https://github.com/SwiftForWindows/SwiftForWindows/issues/76 e.g. says "The project is Dead". So? The point is, it's out there, it's FOSS, and today, it's what new code for Apple OSes is being written in. Obj-C is on the way out. AIUI a big part of the appeal of GNUstep _as a set of frameworks_ was porting Apple code to non-Apple OSes easily, and using Apple-compatible frameworks to product portable apps. If you don't support the language Apple has now moved to, then it's game over. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven IoM: +44 7624 227612 ~ UK: +44 7939-087884 ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
Re: "Wayland Maker - A Wayland compositor inspired by Window Maker"
tiful car you made in 1996 or so... but you are here, red in the face, spraying spittle at me as you insist that you don't make cars. Additionally ravynos is based on the now defunct cocotron project whose code has not been updated in 8+ years. Doesn't matter. They're getting way more attention than you. People are trying it. Seems... I dunno... rather *UNIMPLEMENTED* LOL... it does not inspire my confidence in rayvnOS as a whole. I tried it. It won't even boot in a VM. It's not even a prototype yet. And yet, in the last month or two... https://blog.desdelinux.net/en/ravynos-a-freebsd-with-macos-flavor/ https://debugpointnews.com/ravynos-5-freebsd/ https://x.com/ElBlogDeLazaro/status/1795495500520583308 https://news.tuxmachines.org/n/2024/05/29/ravynOS_A_macOS_Inspired_FreeBSD_Based_Desktop.shtml You need eyes. All software needs users. No community = no free software. This is utter BS and you know it, Liam. https://www.apple.com/us/search/cocoa?src=globalnav Note: the programming API is not there. Support site: https://support.apple.com/kb/index?page=search&type=organic&src=support_searchbox_psp&locale=en_US&q=cocoa 10.5 and 10.7. Nothing newer than 2011. It's not helpful to use a name the owner of that name stopped using nearly a decade and a half ago. I have no side in this, no stake, no skin in the game. I don't care. I am just trying to point out that the name is dead. This is a link to the language repo, not proof ObjC is being replaced. https://www.reddit.com/r/iOSProgramming/comments/uq2o5k/does_anyone_still_use_objectivec_in_their_ios_app/ Note: https://www.reddit.com/r/iOSProgramming/comments/uq2o5k/comment/i8p0be6/ « It's helpful for an iOS developer to know ObjC and at least be able to read it, but if you start a fresh iOS code base today, there's pretty much no reason to drop down to ObjC for sections of your code unless there's some specific interoperability stuff you need to do. » It's over. It's dying. Again: no stake, but it's over. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven IoM: +44 7624 227612 ~ UK: +44 7939-087884 ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
"Wayland Maker - A Wayland compositor inspired by Window Maker"
Not my project and nothing to do with me. I just thought it might be of interest. https://github.com/phkaeser/wlmaker/tree/main Why? Well this is highly relevant to NEXTSPACE and GSDE. Wayland is not yet ready to replace X11 but it is doing so anyway, right now. The next version of Fedora will not include X.org by default. Ubuntu will follow close behind. It's happening and it's going. It has long seemed to me that the GNUstep project and people are in denial about what GNUstep is and its future. This is already having negative repercussions for the project. For example the 2 most visible projects to offer replacements for Apple macOS do not use GNUstep: https://hellosystem.github.io/docs/ https://ravynos.com/ (The latter began as a fork of the former but is now going a different way.) GNUstep, like it or not, is 3 different things: 1. A set of what at least 1 of its developers likes to call "Cocoa-compatible development libraries" (I think this is unhelpful as Apple no longer uses the "Cocoa" naming.) 2. A desktop environment for Linux and xBSD built with this tools. I know of 2 extant desktop environments built from these: NEXTSPACE and GSDE. 3. A Linux software packaging and distribution system built from these: ".app" application bundles. This is, or at least should have been, a rival to AppImage, the GNOME Flatpak format, and Canonical's Snap format. At present GNUstep is getting critically dated because Objective-C is heading towards obsolescence, replaced by Swift. https://github.com/swiftlang/swift Swift is FOSS and cross-platform. It runs on and targets all Apple OSes, plus Linux, Android, and Windows, as my colleague wrote: https://www.theregister.com/2020/03/30/official_swift_programming_for_windows/ Before better websites or better docs, support for Swift on GNUstep as well as Obj-C should, IMHO, be a burningly pressing priority for GNUstep, but it does not seem to be. However, very soon after that, if GNUstep can't target Wayland it will be history as well. WLmaker could potentially be a lifeline. It might let GSDE and NEXTSPACE survive at least. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
"How I build simple Mac apps using Go"
https://dev.to/progrium/how-i-build-simple-mac-apps-using-go-104j « In less than 40 lines we made a native Mac app without opening XCode or using Objective-C. I think this might now be the best bindings project in existence for Apple APIs. Possibly even the best way to make small utilities on the Mac. » I think this could be a very useful thing to adopt, given that there are _still_ no Swift bindings for GNUstep... which is becoming a critical issue as Obj-C slides into history... -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
Re: Keyboard mapping of Option and Command
On Thu, 6 Jun 2024 at 21:27, Jamie Ramone wrote: > > I ALWAYS change the default to Alt = ALTernate (<-- hello?), Ctrl = Control, > and Windows key(s) = Command. Same here! > I just find the Win keys in PC keyboards to be a natural replacement for NeXT > keyboard's Command key. Exactly so. > Leave control as control, leave alt as alt. Yes! > This weird control or alt as Command always felt awkward to me, especially > now that keyboards have special GUI specific keys such as the Win key which > is otherwise a hood ornament on systems GNUstep runs on other than Windows, > such as Linux. 100%. I *wish* your sensible, pragmatic thinking was more widely shared. Choosing key functions based on their physical relative position on hardware made 40 years ago is _insane_ and it destroys both logic and muscle memory. >Also, when the Win key is unavailable (e.g. Ubuntu hardcoding it to > desktop functionality) Are you thinking of Unity? That was officially replaced over 5 years ago. > As for UI settings I made a little preferences app, much more NeXT-like and > inspired by Sergii Stoian's one for NeXTspace: Looks very nice. > Here, you can see how I have only one Command key and it's set to the Menu > key. > One thing I'd suggest we do is purge things like Meta and Super from our > vocabulary. SUN is dead, and has been for decades. OMG, please, yes. Please can we exterminate 1970s pre-standardisation terminology? It is nearly 40 years since PC UIs were standardised in IBM CUA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Common_User_Access NOBODY has a Meta key and no new hardware with Meta keys has been made in about half a century. It is over. It is ancient history. Let it go. And this applies to Emacs, as well. By all means, keep the UI and terminology for existing users, but by default it should be modernised to 1990s UI conventions, as done fairly effectively by ErgoEmacs: https://ergoemacs.github.io/ Make that the standard, pick up locale from the OS, and if there's any existing emacs.el or whatever file, then revert to old behaviour. Otherwise efforts to recruit new users to the community are doomed and as the old ones age out and die the editor and the project are doomed. > Fancy-shmancy terminals are a relic of a bygone era. Just about everyone has > either a PC or a Mac. There are Win, Ctrl, and Alt for PC, and Option, > Control and Command for Macs. Also Option = Alt and Ctrl = Control, so the > only real "extra" or "new(-ish)" keys are the Win and sometimes present menu > keys.That's what the everyday Joe Blow will call them, we should as well. > It's just one of the many, many little things that hamper wide(r)-spread > adoption. *Standing ovation* Well said! -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
Re: Reminder!!! GNUstep meeting 12:30-1:30est
On Fri, 12 Apr 2024 at 11:28, Gregory Casamento wrote: > > Noted. I will do that next time. I suppose I made the mistake of thinking > that timezones were a universal concept. Timezones are. US timezones aren't. It's only in my mid-40s I even had to start learning the names of the US ones, because US colleagues in big companies kept using them under the assumption we all knew. We didn't. I have never lived or worked in the US and don't want to. > For reference I believe right now it’s UTC-4 because of the additional > silliness of daylight savings time. +1 to that > I am not sure why you felt need for the pointless straw-man argument about > Fahrenheit, I got what you were saying. It's not just you and this was nothing personal. The FreeDOS people do the same. Both Red Hat and SUSE did the same internally. A few years I bought the UK English edition of a pop science book from one of my favourite webcomics writer/artists, Zach Weinersmith. It exclusively used only feet, pounds, fahrenheit etc. throughout. I was bitterly disappointed, said so on Twitter, and he responded, very negatively. I understand feet and miles. I follow a single Youtube channel, a Canadian motorcycling one, and it uses SI for mass and imperial for distance, and that is a British thing too. I don't understand ºF. I do not know what a nickel is. It's a metal to me. I do not know how much a dime is. I know they are coins. I do not know the denomination. And yet multinationals use these as if they were universal. e.g. Nickelodeon. They aren't. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
Re: Reminder!!! GNUstep meeting 12:30-1:30est
On Thu, 11 Apr 2024 at 08:37, Gregory Casamento wrote: > > Anybody is welcome. Please come!!! Error: not in America, do not speak American timezones. I have to Google it _every single time_. Please, for the ROTW, remember to add in UTC or GMT because everyone knows how far they are away from that. EST is provincial. It's like fahrenheit. Nobody else in the world uses fahrenheit. I am 56 years old and schools no longer taught Fahrenheit when I went half a century ago. All those annoying internet memes about "ºF is how people feel" -- nobody else in the entire planet except you guys. Not even Canadians, AFAIK. _Please_ I implore you try to always remember that. It matters. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
Worrying news? "Apple’s Objective-C ‘appears to be reaching its end of life’ – or so says JetBrains survey "
https://devclass.com/2023/11/21/apples-objective-c-appears-to-be-reaching-its-end-of-life-or-so-says-jetbrains-survey/ Disclaimer: this is by a colleague of mine but I have seen other such stories from the same survey. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
I've not seen this here before...
https://vcs.vera-visions.com/eukara/WebSurf A GNUstep-native Netsurf. Netsurf is a very small, fast browser that originated on RISC OS, the original native OS of the Arm processor. The snag is that it can't do Javascript, so much of the modern Web isn't usable. Arguably an advantage, in theory... -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
A recent article of mine mentioned GNUstep
I hope I am now closer to preferred terminology. ;-) Window Maker Live: When less is more, but more is also ... more? https://www.theregister.com/2023/10/25/window_maker_096_live/ New version of Debian-based live distro boasts added GNUstep, too -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
Re: I wrote about the new GSDE package on the Register
On Sun, 23 Jul 2023 at 03:04, Gregory Casamento wrote: > Which part? Also, who do you believe reads your articles? It is important > to play to both parts of the audience. Developers, while not the majority, > are extremely important because without them you can't create the engagement > needed to build the environment. Apple does not sell iPads and Macs by talking about the elegance of their APIs. GNOME doesn't get users by talking about the ease of development in Javascript. Microsoft doesn't win corporate sales by telling people that .NET fixes the complexity of Win32 in a 64-bit memory model. Ubuntu didn't become the biggest Linux by talking about the range of languages GCC supports. It doesn't even include GCC in the base install. You need to appeal to the masses, not the few. You get users, you get a community, by making something pretty and easy to use so that people want to try it. You need to get it out there, in front of people's eyes, so they know it's a thing and an option. As I have been saying for about 10-15y now, GNUstep is not just a set of programming tools any more. It's a desktop. The way to get people into the community is to make it visible. So they know about that desktop and are curious about using it. So bundle binaries with a distro and get it out there. Get it in Debian, get it in Ubuntu, get it in Fedora. Get remixes and spins that default to it. Make it visible. I had reader comments along the lines of "oh wow, does that still exist? I remember that from the '90s!" You will kill the product and destroy the community and any hope of success by talking about APIs and version numbers. *ESPECIALLY* by talking about obsolete APIs that were deprecated a decade or more ago. Promote the whole not the part. Talk about the most visible bits not the least. Talk about the stuff users can see and try, not the weird arcane bits programmers talk about. If you must talk about macOS, then do, but I warn you, for Apple ecosystem developers these days, that means Swift, and if you don't have Swift, you are not compatible with Apple software development. [Reply sent to wrong list in error; apologies!] _In re_ the later comments about NeXTstep vs. OPENstep... I am happy to agree to that point, but I think that even now, over 20Y later, NeXTstep has more mindshare and more "brand awareness"... :-( -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
Re: I wrote about the new GSDE package on the Register
On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 at 08:27, Gregory Casamento wrote: > > Yes, visually, GSDE is trying to look like OPENSTEP/NeXTSTEP. But, in your > article when you refer to GNUstep tries to recreate NeXTSTEP... that > statement ENTIRELY belies the fact that we have implemented all of OPENSTEP > and are almost done with major portions of Cocoa/macOS up to and including > Catalina. This is the core of the issue that I have been trying to get across for, what, a decade now? If you want people to use your software, to adopt it and try it and develop for it, then you have to find a way to appeal to as many people as possible. That means, whatever your tool, the problem is not about programmers. It is not about APIs. It is about *users*. Over 2/3 of the human race uses computers. Of those 6 billion or so people, 99.99% are not programmers. They are users. If you aim your message at programmers, you are excluding all but a tiny rounding error of any potential market. APIs and so on are irrelevant abstractions to users. GSDE is a desktop environment, one which happens to contain some development tools. It's what I've been saying GNUstep needed for half this century so far. Forget anything to do with developers. Talking about the name of a set of APIs that _the company which created those APIs_ stopped using over a decade ago is the definition of futility. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
Re: I wrote about the new GSDE package on the Register
On Fri, 7 Jul 2023 at 17:51, Gregory Casamento wrote: > > I am really happy to see this article. I only have one bit of feedback... > > "GNUstep has been around since the 1990s, and has re-implemented a > substantial amount of NeXTstep, completely from scratch. " > > Could we please stop saying NEXTSTEP? This only furthers the > misunderstanding that GNUstep is limited to an OS that stopped being produced > long ago. Also, we have far exceeded NeXTSTEP and OPENSTEP. It is much > better to say that we have re-implemented a substantial amount of Cocoa. > Otherwise the article is wonderful. Thank you for getting the word out. :) I'm very glad you liked it. We've gone around the NeXTstep-vs-MacOS thing before. I don't know if you remember. *In this case*, no, I have to disagree. GSDE seems to me to very clearly and definitely be trying to recreate NeXTstep, *not* Mac OS X. I like that. I approve of that. In context, trying to spell out that GNUstep is aiming at something else would only be confusing. Secondly, Apple itself no longer uses the term Cocoa and that itself is obsolete terminology, so I don't think it's a useful comparison or term. I think the reverse is true. It's unhelpful and unclear and confusing. I don't have a better answer right now, sadly, but in the context of a desktop environment, no, I think making a comparison to an obsolete and discontinued Apple internal API spec would be considerably *less* helpful. Note that on Apple's own page: https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/CocoaFundamentals/WhatIsCocoa/WhatIsCocoa.html There is a big warning: « Retired Document Important: This document may not represent best practices for current development. Links to downloads and other resources may no longer be valid. » I do not have a proposal but I think the name Coca went away a full decade ago and you need something more useful to replace it. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
Re: I wrote about the new GSDE package on the Register
On Fri, 7 Jul 2023 at 11:37, Xavier Brochard wrote: > > Very nice presentation, thanks. Thank you! I am glad you liked it. > You've said in a previous paper thet there were really 2 desktop > paradigm on Linux, though many were invented. That is not really what I was getting at, no. What I was saying was that almost all Linux desktops are re-implementations of the Windows 95 desktop. There are a couple that are not, but they are still informed by it and borrow design elements from it, while just trying to do something different enough to not get sued. GNOME 3 is a confusing mess, to me. I do not see a coherent overall plan here. Unity is fairly straightforwardly inspired by Mac OS X. I've seen screenshots of the betas of GNOME 3 and the team seemed to borrow a lot from Unity, but it's 2nd hand -- GNOME 3 is not a take on the Mac OS X desktop itself. It's a de novo effort, with sime inspiration from Unity, and a lot from various mobile phones but notably iOS and early Android, with a strange set of keyboard controls assembled without much knowledge of how existing GUI keyboard controls worked. So, no, not really that there are 2 designs. There are: * a bunch of Win9x rip-offs * one Mac OS X rip-off (but using many more Windows keyboard controls (for clarity: a *good* thing!) * one confused mess which is sort of a mobile phone rip off ... and some very niche offerings, like Lomiri, which are not really complete enough to judge. All totally IMHO, of course! > In this regard, how did > you feel with GSDE ? was it consistent as a desktop paradigm? If Unity is a Mac OS X ripoff, then GSDE is a NeXTstep ripoff. :-) (With deep affection and respect here, for all 3!) As such... NeXTstep was quite coherent and whole. I do not know it well, I just admire it from afar. I find it weird and disorienting, but mostly quite coherent. GSDE is a good strong attempt to put the GNUstep bits together and integrate them. It has some issues -- context menus appearing offscreen, the wrong menu tree being shown and so on -- but it works surprisingly well for a v1.0 product. > how did > you feel with the scrollbars on the right and the menu on the left It works fairly well, for me. > (Steve Jobs thought that scrollbars on the left were more consistent) ? There is a good argument for that, but we're all used to something different now. Does that help? -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
I wrote about the new GSDE package on the Register
That is OnFlapp's GNUstep Desktop Environment... https://www.theregister.com/2023/07/06/two_new_debian_desktops/ -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
Re: GNUstep Desktop
On Mon, 22 May 2023 at 14:22, Gregory Casamento wrote: > > Oh. Wow. Yes you’re right. Your reply has different unwanted text in it! > Thank you for taking the time to interview me for this position. It is much > appreciated and it was a pleasure speaking with you. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
Re: GNUstep Desktop
Er, Greg, I don't think you meant this to be in your signature! > I understand that you guys have decided not to take me on. Not everything is > a good fit. Good luck with finding an appropriate candidate. > > Sincerely yours, > -- > Gregory Casamento > GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant > http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com > https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron > https://www.openhub.net/languages/objective_c - OpenHub standings -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
Re: FOSDEM!
On Tue, 31 Jan 2023 at 16:54, Steven R. Baker wrote: > > Sorry, that's my Fosstodon fediverse account. I should've put @ in front to > make it more clear. Aha. That is what I know Fosstodon for but I thought maybe you were an admin there or something. I've now followed you. BTW, the convention is to bottom-post on the list. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
Re: FOSDEM!
On Tue, 31 Jan 2023 at 00:27, Steven R. Baker wrote: > > Heya! > > I am traveling to FOSDEM! I'd like to meet up with fellow GNUsteppers. > > Please email me off-list for my mobile number. Or, we can try and organize > something here. > > I'm also srba...@fosstodon.org. The 2nd email address here bounced back undeliverable. Anyway, yes, I plan to be there. Contact details in my sig. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
Re: airyxOS has a new name: ravynOS
On Tue, 30 Aug 2022 at 17:50, Marco Cawthorne wrote: > > On 2022-08-30 03:54:04 -0700 Liam Proven wrote: > > > I can't see that myself, so I am not sure which. > > It's the first image on the screenshots page: > https://ravynos.com/images/airyx_0.3_installer_confirm.png > Which shows the stock GNUstep theme. Aha! Thank you. Does it? I can't tell, that is what I was getting at. > > I cannot work out what "wrappened" (?) means here. It's not an > > English word. > > He means that Firefox is just using an app bundle wrapper. Similar to > the ones in the GWorkspace/App_Wrappers directory. So it doesn't link > against Obj-C or any GNUstep code Aha! I see. Thank you, much better. > > Is it? Telling of what? > > He compliments how much further along they are in adopting modern > technologies than GNUstep. > Pushing for Wayland is definitely 'ambitious' to say the least because > it seems everyone else is somewhat struggling with it. Also GNUstep > already relies on some of their work (libobjc2) it seems. Great explanations -- thank you. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
Re: airyxOS has a new name: ravynOS
On Fri, 26 Aug 2022 at 19:53, Riccardo Mottola wrote: > > one of the screenshot "screams" GNUstep, it has the telling "gamma too > dark" NeXT grey default theme. I can't see that myself, so I am not sure which. > Most apps however are not native (e.g. firefox) and are wrappend. I cannot work out what "wrappened" (?) means here. It's not an English word. > They say however: > > GNUStep is pretty good and their Cocoa implementation is much further > ahead than ours. We use the libobjc2 runtime from it. However, the way > it is packaged, the GS* extension classes, and various other things made > it "less than ideal" for ravynOS. Also I prefer BSD/MIT/Apache-style > licensing. That said, I'm open to using it if we can make it work. > > That, plus Wayland, is telling. Is it? Telling of what? I find your email impenetrable I'm afraid. Sorry. My failing but I don't follow at all. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
airyxOS has a new name: ravynOS
I'm not sure it's an improvement. https://ravynos.com/ It seems to at least mention Cocoa APIs... I don't know if that means GNUstep. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
Fascinating blog post on software design
I especially recommend section 6 (which is short) as relevant to GNUstep. https://chachatelier.fr/chalk/article/chalk.html But I very much like and admire the analysis in §1-3 myself. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
Re: GNUstep on Hackernews
On Fri, 24 Dec 2021 at 13:31, Gregory Casamento wrote: > > ??? I'm wondering why Cocoa wouldn't be well known. As I always keep saying: my interest (here, there are others!) is operating systems, and the article was about software packaging for Linux distributions and the subsequent piece was about how the evolution of packaging tools is influencing the development and construction of Linux distros. https://www.theregister.com/2021/12/03/nixos_linux_os_design/ Remember, altho' I know that for the majority of the small GNUstep community, it's a framework for app developers, a tool for programmers, it is also more than that. As a proportion of the computer-using human race, not many people are programmers. Most just use computers, they don't program them. A lot of Linux users are interested in look and feel. They enjoy customising their OSes, trying different ones, changing UIs and desktops. They can't program and they're not interested in programming. Cocoa is a codename for an API for a proprietary OS for proprietary hardware. These days it's the only API and the OS has abandoned 32-bit platforms and no longer offers the other API, Carbon; the name Cocoa was one of a pair of codenames, Cocoa and Carbon, for a triplet of APIs. Cocao for Yellow Box, Carbon for Blue Box, and the now-forgotten Red Box for running Windows apps on Rhapsody: https://lowendmac.com/1997/red-box-blue-box-yellow-box/ And the Java API too, also now gone because it was farmed out to Oracle after Oracle bought Sun. These are historical terms now, and they're only interesting or relevant to programmers on the Apple platform. If you search Apple.com for the word Cocoa you get a 2013 document with a warning on it that it is archived historical content: https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/CocoaFundamentals/WhatIsCocoa/WhatIsCocoa.html NeXTstep remains relatively widely-known and respected as the OS that was the ancestor of macOS. There are emulators to run it: https://sourceforge.net/projects/previous/ There are docs explaining how to run the Intel version in a VM: http://stuffjasondoes.com/2018/07/25/installing-nextstep-os-openstep-on-virtualbox-in-2018/ There is or was a NeXTstep GUI for Windows: http://litestep.net/ There are multiple NeXTstep-like window managers for free xNix OSes, including Window Maker, OpenBox, BlackBox, FluxBox and others. NeXTstep is a thing in the public consciousness. It is something a reasonably well-informed techie has probably heard of. It's Steve Jobs' pet project before he returned to Apple. Cocoa is an obsolete codename for a tool for programmers. It is not well-known to the general public, to whom it means a hot drink or the stuff chocolate is made from. So I submit it is a *much* less useful word. > Of Cocoa. :) My point was, from reading the article, if someone doesn't > know the heritage of Cocoa, then they will read that as "GNUstep is a clone > of NeXTSTEP." Which, to a non-programmer, it is. >> Is the .app folder bundle format part of Cocoa, the API, anyway? > > Part of the API? Not necessarily, but part of the OS, yes, absolutely. > macOS/Cocoa still uses it. So it's not part of Cocoa as an API, and therefore, using the word Cocoa at this point and in that context would have in fact been unhelpful and misleading. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
Re: GNUstep on Hackernews
On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 at 00:07, Gregory Casamento wrote: > > Excellent article, but I have to say that saying GNUstep as an > implementation of NeXTSTEP is half our issue. It would be better to say it > is an implementation of Cocoa. Thank you! It was only a brief mention and the piece was getting over-long anyway. I feel that the term Cocoa is not well-enough known, nor would something like "Yellow Box" or something be either. I had just talked about how macOS bundles apps into special folders, how it had inherited this from its ancestor NeXTstep, so I thought it was fair to continue that line by saying that there's a FOSS re-implementation of that stuff. Is the .app folder bundle format part of Cocoa, the API, anyway? -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
Re: GNUstep on Hackernews
On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 at 23:01, Ivan Vučica wrote: > > > I'm unaware of a packaging system in GNUstep; I admit not to know of > everything or keeping up with everything in GNUstep, however. > > I'm also unaware of the article being referred to; I admit not to > reading the entire (excessively long) thread. Could you kindly share > the link again? To my piece? Sure. https://www.theregister.com/2021/11/26/linux_software_installation/ It is not about GNUstep; it merely mentions it. Re your other points, all very well-argued, I think, and thanks for the info. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
Re: People think we are for nostalgics or dead.
On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 at 12:21, Gregory Casamento wrote: > > I have updated the website recently to show the themes. > > I am also posting, pretty much daily, about progress with GNUstep on twitter. > The best we can do is to try to put ourselves out there the way we really > are. Looking at GNUstep's stats on github tells the story that we are not > dead. > > Also, the discussion on hackernews showed that a lot of people are turning > around their opinions. We will not change the general impression of the > project in a day (or even a month or a year) but if we persist in making it > known that we are not a bunch of Luddites, then people will, eventually, pick > up on that. > > We must strive to change people's opinions. What is the best way to suggest text changes, new content, new links etc. for the website? Greg, since I note you now have your own Twitter account – @bheron (and may I ask why that? Just curious) – then I suggest you, or the community, or something, take your name off @gnustep and try to post something on there every day. www.bufferapp.com may be useful for this. I use a free account there myself. You can put a load of stuff in, every day, and schedule when it gets posted. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
Re: GNUstep on Hackernews
On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 at 22:05, Riccardo Mottola wrote: > > For the end-user how just wants to install the applications, which is what we > are here discussing, doesn't care the runtime and language used, they just > want to install and run the packages. No, I disagree. There remains a huge amount of interest in Linux desktops. Far more than on any other free Unix variant. There are old and new Win95-like desktops, using Qt (old KDE, new LXQt), Gtk (old MATE, XFCE; new, Cinnamon), and EFL (Enlightenment, Moksha) and other more niche toolkits such as FLTK (EDE). There are new very-vaguely Mac or Mac OS X-like desktops, e.g. Pantheon (Elementary OS), Unity/Lomiri/Unity X (UBPorts, Ubuntu Unity) There are attempted independent desktops (e.g. Budgie from Solus) There's a lot of noise out there. A lot of interest. GNUstep also has a packaging system, which is the reason I discussed it in my article. If you are wondering how to "market" it _to programmers_ these days, then I suspect the answer lies in supporting newer languages than Obj-C. Swift is the obvious one: https://github.com/apple/swift-system Ones that might interest people in RAD and so on... • Kotlin perhaps? • Python, obviously • Rust and Go up to a point -- trendy but maybe not so much for GUI apps? -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
Re: GNUstep on Hackernews
On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 at 16:41, Riccardo Mottola wrote: > > Svetlana Tkachenko wrote: > > 'gnustep live cd' is already a good reference distribution, is it not? > > http://wiki.gnustep.org/index.php/GNUstep_Live_CD i am asking because in > > some of the discussions above, it seems that there are some references to > > that a reference distribution does not exist > > To my knowledge it is outdated, last referenced version I see is 2017. That's odd. I do not see the message you're replying to in this thread. Anyway, yes, there was a demo LiveCD, and also a (IMHO very cluttered) VM image. But that makes the system look outdated & archaic. I submit we need installable binary packages for at least 1 current, mainstream Linux distro, making it as easy to get a GNUstep system up and running as it is to get any other Linux desktop environment. No, not BSD; while I admire all the BSDs, they are not beginner-friendly OSes. No, *not* as a set of programming tools, although that is appealing. Why? Because nowhere near as many people _write_ code as _use_ code. As a way of saying that GNUstep is alive and well, the best demo I can think of is, for example, a current Ubuntu preinstalled with GNUstep & as many GNUstep apps as possible, ready to install and use. To show off the apps and that it is a rich and mature framework. I know, there's no "native" web browser. That is not a biggie; just bundle Firefox. To be ambitious, take the Javascript plugin that Ubuntu used to integrate Firefox into Unity and make it display GNUstep style menus instead. The Waterfox web browser still integrates with Unity just fine. https://www.waterfox.net/ https://ubuntuunity.org/ -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
Re: GNUstep on Hackernews
On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 at 15:42, H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: > > A different approach is not a GSUbuntu but providing GS as an alternative > to Gnome, KDE, Mate, Xfce4, LXDE and numerous others. > > Quantumstep does it that way. It has a dedicated and maintained package > repository where it is enough on PC side to add a one-liner entry to > /etc/apt/sources.list.d, > do an apt-get update && apt-get install quantumstep. Proper dependencies > and some installation/configuration packages make it work. > > This is very similar to installing e.g. xfce4 or lxde on some minimal > Debian with initially no gui user-interface. Interesting -- I had not heard of this before. I will take a look. Thank you for the link! -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
Re: GNUstep on Hackernews
On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 at 15:27, Riccardo Mottola wrote: > It is a high burden to maintain, there was one official, one > not-official... I agree that it is useful, but I consider having ready > working packages of quality of much higher impact. When I post about or write about GNUstep, people are generally amazed it still exists. There are only about 0.1% as many programmers as users. Millions of people use Linux as their desktop OS now. > That distribution > would be just a show-case, but then the majority of people would still > want to use GNUstep things in their current OS. I disagree, but I have said so before with little impact. > Maybe one day our impact > will be so great that GSUbuntu will spread, but I doubt. > Also, the strength of GNUstep is its portability, so the target OS shoud > be too. This is true, but if it's a visible, usable environment on Linux then that will be a reason to help make sure it's one on other free xNixes as well, no? > I wonder if Richard Stonehouse still reads us? His ready VM images was > excellent! What more convenient than trying in a virtual machine before > deciding to install? It was a good start, yes. I think a mainstream, current distro installable on bare metal for end-users *not programmers* is key, though. > They evaluated us and discarded GNUstep on what basis? I had no > interaction with any of them nor did i see things on the mailing list. Me neither. I am in touch with the guy; I will ask. > I > doubt someone without prior knowledge can grasp GS all by onself > without help. So you think "our loss", but I'd say also "their loss". That's the nature of FOSS. > Now they have a mesh of python stuff, simplified and different App > bunles... but at the end where are the "apps" for HelloSystem? The programmer is the man who devised AppImage. I think he has more than a bit of a clue in that direction. > We have few, but it is possible to make a full, consistent environment > of GNUstep. Several attempts have proven that! I am not doubting it. > A bad evaluation of GNUstep was done years ago.. then GNOME was created > and now we know the monstrum that came out which reinvented fromt eh > toolkit to distributed objects and now has a lot of disgruntled users. Agreed. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
Re: GNUstep on Hackernews
On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 at 00:08, Sergii Stoian wrote: > > For the sake of truth - NextSpace has 3 binary releases (RPMs). Please look > carefully here https://github.com/trunkmaster/nextspace/releases. > Last 0.90 release support 3 bistro: CenOS 7, CentOS 8 and Fedora 31. Aha! That is excellent. I had missed that. I will see if I can install it in a VM. > Also it includes install script and installation process pretty much simple > even for non-technical person like you. Um. "Not a programmer" != "non-technical person". I've been a *nix sysadmin since 1988 and working with Linux since 1996. I have designed, implemented, built and supported more networks than I can remember, and systems I built and ran handled $600M of business per day, every day, for years on end, with the only downtime being due to external factors such as leased line failure. I am, I think, very much a technical person and have been for my whole career. The thing is, I know my strengths and weaknesses, and while I *can* program in 3 or 4 languages, I am not good at it. So I focus on what I am good at, not what I am bad at. > Some time ago I’ve started NextSpace development on FreeBSD. I’ve consciously > switched to Linux for 2 reasons: most commercial applications are written for > Linux (RHEL and Ubuntu) and FreeBSD lacks such powerful system-level > utilities like UDisks (for automatic removable media management). I agree regarding FreeBSD. Do you think it would be easy, or hard, or near-impossible to get the NEXTSPACE desktop running on Ubuntu or on Debian? -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
Re: GNUstep on Hackernews
On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 at 19:38, Xavier Brochard wrote: > > We all know that many projects never finished. Who can say what > HelloSystem will be in a few months? It's already lasted quite a while and seems to be getting interest and news coverage and so on. Almost all the other desktop-oriented FreeBSD distros seem to have died, including its parent FuryBSD, PC-BSD, TrueOS, and MidnightBSD. (I just checked and GohstBSD has a new release, so maybe it's not dead. That's good to hear.) > So why not help on NextSpace? I know that Serjii like to work alone, but > we certainly can help in some parts, like bug tracking or starting an > iso autobuilder like hello. Like others, I don't have so much time to > give, already working on other projects, but adding little time with > little time we can do something. Well, TBH, I mostly lack any relevant technical skills, and I don't use (or particularly like) CentOS. I'm a technical writer and journalist, not a programmer or distro-builder. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
GNUstep on Hackernews
This discussion contains some useful points. There may be stuff here that should be addressed right on the homepage. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29537172 Étoilé is there too. I wonder if this is because I mentioned both in my article? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29537538 As I have said more than once before, IMHO, the GNUstep project *really* _NEEDS_ a version of a mainstream distro based on the desktop environment, as a showcase. NEXTspace hasn't released any binaries or an ISO yet as far as I know. It needs that. Ordinary Linux users are not going to compile their own. The HelloSystem evaluated it and discarded it, and the GNUstep project missed a _huge_ opportunity there. That made me very sad. https://hellosystem.github.io/docs/ Hello is getting some attention. I managed to get a recent build to boot on hardware on one of my machines recently for the first time (I tried 0.5 & 0.6 with no success except in a VM) and while it's still very basic, it is there, it works, you can use it, and people are trying it. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
I wrote about GNUstep on the Register recently
I hope you'll forgive the blatant self-plug -- I just thought it might be of interest. It is not a long mention but it's a thoroughly approving one. https://www.theregister.com/2021/11/26/linux_software_installation/ -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
Re: LIVEstep - FreeBSD based live CD
On Thu, 1 Oct 2020 at 12:54, Johannes Brakensiek wrote: > > Hello folks, > > there is a FreeBSD based live CD using GNUstep and the more modern > looking adjustments by Alessandro and Bertrand. It’s created utilizing > the FuryBSD live CD efforts. > > https://github.com/probonopd/LIVEstep > > Just to let you know. I tried this out in VirtualBox yesterday. It's really very impressive -- it's the best-looking implementation of a GNUstep desktop I've seen yet, with a Mac-like menu bar, a fairly complete set of apps, and with some of the gaps (e.g. a web browser) filled with other FOSS components. It is a little incomplete, as it is an early work-in-progress, but what is there so far is very impressive indeed. I will try to put it on actual hardware next and see how it fares. -- Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
Re: Debian Package Repository...
On Thu, 30 Jul 2020 at 17:07, Xavier Brochard wrote: > Fred > Kiefer already use it for SusE and Fedora packages +1. I have used these packages to prototype a GNUstep-based openSUSE Leap meta-distro and they worked very well indeed. > and I use it myself > for packaging NextSpace project. Oh really? I did not know of this. May I ask where? -- Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
Re: GNUstep app fails on Ubuntu 16
On Wed, 6 May 2020 at 13:35, Andreas Höschler wrote: > > Hi Liam, [...] > I have done > > apt-get install wdm > apt-get install wmaker > reboot > > on a fresh Ubuntu (server) install but did not get any graphical login!? :-( You need to install an X server. X.11 is the program that draws the graphical desktop on Linux. https://howtoinstall.co/en/ubuntu/xenial/xorg -- Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
Re: GNUstep app fails on Ubuntu 16
On Wed, 6 May 2020 at 12:03, Andreas Höschler via Discussion list for the GNUstep programming environment wrote: > > I could start from scratch. But I need to install something that gives me a > GUI login. I started with the Ubuntu server install. This got me a text login > only. I then did > > apt-get install ubuntu-desktop This part is unnecessary and brings in all of Unity and the other stuff you don't want. All you need is x11-xorg (or whatever Ubuntu calls it; I can't check right now as I am on openSUSE.) > and chose Window Maker before logging in. I could remove ubuntu-desktop from > the system but I guess this gets me back to a text login!? No. -- Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
Re: GNUstep app fails on Ubuntu 16
On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 19:20, Andreas Höschler via Discussion list for the GNUstep programming environment wrote: > > Hi all, > > I am trying GNUstep GUI on Linux for the first time. I have installed GNUstep > on a fresh Ubuntu 16.04 box like so A few questions. [1] Why such an old version of Ubuntu, which is 2 long-term support versions out of date? I suggest starting with 20.04 [2] Why all the ``--force'' stuff? That looks like a bad plan. [3] For a start, to get used to it, just install it from the repositories. Most of GNUstep is there already. -- Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
A new GNUstep app in the wild?
http://twilightedge.com/mac/redoomed/ -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
Re: Which ObjC2.0 features are missing in the latest GCC?
On Wed, 27 Nov 2019 at 12:15, Andreas Fink wrote: > > On the other hand I would _LOVE_ to see a OS X like desktop with AppKit and I > would spend time working on it. Given the other desktops under Linux have not > much success because of the way they do certain things, I think there is a > big need. Something like what ElementaryOS does but with GNUStep and running > on the major distributions (Debian/Ubuntu/Fedora/Redhat/Centos) could change > the world. This is a long shot. But we have to ask ourselfs what is our > strategy for the future. Absolutely, this. Given the goals of the ElementaryOS desktop and team, it is a crying shame they didn't use GNUstep to build it. I am sure they would have got to a rich, usable product much quicker. I suspect they just did not know GNUstep existed. That awareness is key, and it is why I think having at least one mainstream distro having a full GNUstep desktop available is vitally important. I know that the GNUstep developer community don't see what they're doing as a desktop environment, but that is accidentally what they have built, and that is the № 1 best way of getting visibility and awareness. > a) a EASY to use entry. Run on any version of Ubuntu, Debian, CentOS, Redhat > etc with just a simple setup. ./configure;make;make install should handle > all the magic to get up and running from a tar.gz. Or much better a apt-get > install gnustep. This. With the big caveat that DIY compilation is too hard for modern Linux users. Ready-to-run binaries is the *only* way. Some people seem to delight in themes to make it look just like Apple macOS. That is a dangerous path. Remember what happened to PearOS: bought out, shut down and archives deleted. Elementary only escaped because it's not a very good copy! Keep it looking like NeXTstep -- it's _still_ a strong look, a known brand. Maybe modern themes. Make it respond to the same keystrokes as macOS: none of this "alt-C" to copy nonsense. Either it's the Windows way -- Ctrl-C, and conflict with Unix tradition, as KDE/GNOME/XFCE etc. do -- or the Mac way: Super-C. But GNUstep *must* conform to the existing norms, and it must exist as an easy-to-install binary metapackage. Ideally, IMHO, 2 metapackages: 1 for the desktop environment, 1 for the dev tools. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
Re: GNUstep Discord Server
On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 at 15:59, Umberto Cerrato wrote: > > Unfortunately there seems there is nothing like it atm... The main FOSS team-chat tool, apart from classic IRC, seems to be Rocket.chat. We use it at my employers and it works quite well for business stuff: i.e., not voice and video and so on, but rich-text, images, quoting, threading, ad-hoc groups, etc. FOSS server, FOSS clients for most OSes including mobile, and accessible via a browser. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
Re: GNUstep Discord Server
On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 at 15:43, David Chisnall wrote: > > Their T&Cs are not some that I would ever consider agreeing to, or that > I would ever recommend for any free / open source software project and I > would strongly recommend that anyone considering using this service > reads their T&Cs carefully before deciding to accept them. Interesting. Just gave them a quick look. Bearing in mind that it's a gaming service, they looked fair enough. What were your objections? -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
Re: Package building
On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 at 12:42, David Chisnall wrote: > > I would add to that: most users will not be using a GNUstep DE. This > was one of the biggest mistakes that we made with Etoile: we did not > have an incremental adoption story. I am very hesitant to differ here, because I hugely respect your work and your writing and often cite your ACM "C is not a low-level language" article. But I disagree here, and with some subsequent points. > If you want GNUstep to be attractive to developers, you need to make it > easy for them to ship apps that integrate with an existing *NIX DE and > with Windows. True. > One of the biggest things that RedHat did for Linux > desktop usability was teach the GTK+ and Qt theme engines to understand > a shared format and unify shortcut keys between the two. Interesting point. I loved the Bluecurve effort, myself, and I was sad that it didn't catch on. I wanted to slap the many KDE users and devs I saw complaining about it; in the KDE 3 timeframe, IMHO Bluecurve was the _only_ theme that ever made KDE look anything less than horrible. Bluecurve was actually attractive and professional-looking, something no release of KDE since 1.x has ever been for me. I confess I had missed the broader significance that you point out: that KDE/GNOME/Cinnamon/Maté/Xfce/LX?? apps all look and work broadly similarly enough now that they do not stick out too badly when run under each others' desktops. > After that, it > didn't matter (much) if you needed a mix of GNOME and KDE apps, your > desktop still felt (approximately) cohesive. True. > At the moment, people with one GNUstep app feel that it sticks out and > is difficult to use because it doesn't follow the same UI models as the > rest of their system. That means that they then don't want a second one. > > Qt on Mac has the same problem: the controls are all subtly different > and it took them years to even have the same shortcuts for navigation in > a text field, so everyone who ran a Qt application on Mac hated it and > never wanted to use another one. This didn't matter so much for Qt, > because they did have good Windows and X11 support. > > Currently, GNUstep apps look and feel like native apps on MacOS, when > you don't use GNUstep. They look and feel alien everywhere else. This also is true. But if I may be so bold: IMHO one of the problems of Étoilé was that it violated the core FOSS principle of "release early, release often". GNUstep comes close to the same. Sticking some source code on a version control system somewhere is not releasing something. Offering a set of binaries users can install is releasing. I want to see _at a minimum_ a Zip file or tarball I can grab, open and just run on my distro, whatever that distro is so long as it is mainstream. (Examples: Rocket.chat, Waterfox, Franz.) Neither Étoilé nor GNUstep does this minimal effort. Ideally, I want to see a repo I can add to my distro with a single command, then I can install $product _and get updates from then on_. Ubuntu PPA and Fedora COPR repos make this easy; openSUSE hosts the OBS and software.opensuse.org to offer equivalent functionality. GNUstep doesn't do this, but it is at least well-enough known that most major distros include dated versions and I can just cobble together something that kinda-sorta works, a bit, from my distro's repos. It is only when I joined this list that I discovered that the Debian and Ubuntu bundles of GNUstep were very dated and that I needed to add third-party repos to get something vaguely current. Periodically there have been all-in-one demo disks of GNUstep (GNUstep Live, Simply GNUstep, etc.) to show off what it can do. AFAIK Étoilé never even got this. If the only way to try something out is to compile it yourself, then I am probably never going to bother. That's too much work for me, and I suspect this is true for 90% or more of Linux users. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
Re: Package building
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 at 23:49, cobjective wrote: > > Could you please share some details on what exactly do you plan to do? > The paragraph above sounds the same as what NEXTSPACE project is developed > for. It may be, but I do not like and do not use RH-family Linuxes. If I was to use a GNUstep-based distro, ideally, it would be based on Ubuntu, or failing that, Debian/Devuan, and failing that, openSUSE, as those are the distros with the packaging tools, driver/codec/etc support and so on that I find the best. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
Re: Package building
On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 at 15:37, Johannes Brakensiek wrote: > I'd like to see this > being done using https://openbuildservice.org/ f.e. This has been a low-priority item on my to-do list for 2 years now, ever since I came to work at SUSE. Unfortunately I've not had free (work) time to look at it yet. I welcome pointers or hints! -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
Most famous ever NeXTstep app resurrected in emulation
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/02/19/cern_browser_reawakened/ -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Fwd: FOSDEM 2019 - Distributions Devroom Call for Participation
A friend of mine on the Fedora team asked me to forward this on. Does anyone plan to be at FOSDEM in Brussels next year? I think it might be interesting to have a talk about CacaoLinux. If anyone would like to do one, please step up. But if nobody wants to, well, perhaps I could do one for you, if a few people would like to assist me in scripting it... -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 -- Forwarded message - The Distributions devroom will take place Sunday 3 February 2019 at FOSDEM, in Brussels, Belgium at the Université Libre de Bruxelles. As more and more workloads are being considered for containerization in the future and are finally landing in virtualized environments today, distributions remain a critical success factor and are more important than ever. Containers, like virtual machines, are not magical and rely on piles of software being assembled in a way that is repeatable, reliable, and functional. This is at the very heart of the problem that distributions have always solved. Each distribution is responsible for building, testing, and releasing software as well as managing the lifecycle of each application in the collection. Additionally, distributions do very important work in ensuring that various versions of upstream software work well together and can co-exist. Distributions are also, often responsible, for "de-vendoring" upstream software so that security fixes can be applied more quickly. We welcome submissions targeted at contributors interested in issues unique to distributions, especially in the following topics: # Topics and Areas of Focus ## Focus Areas - The ways that distribution technologies can be leveraged to allow for easier creation of a multi-verse of artifacts from single source trees. This includes the increasing move toward self-contained applications and providing multiple non-parallel installed versions of software. - Efforts being made in shared environments around Build/Test/Release cycles. - Topics related to the delivery problem as it impacts updates in terms of both size and rollback/reliability are expected to be featured. ## Additional Topic Ideas - Distribution and Community collaborations, eg: how does code flow from developers to end users across communities, ensuring trust and code audibility - Automating building software for redistribution to minimize human involvement, eg: bots that branch and build software, bots that participate as team members extending human involvement - Cross-distribution collaboration on common issues, eg: content distribution, infrastructure, and documentation - Growing distribution communities, eg: onboarding new users, helping new contributors learn community values and technology, increasing contributor technical skills, recognizing and rewarding contribution - Principals of Rolling Releases, Long Term Supported Releases (LTS), Feature gated releases, and calendar releases - Distribution construction, installation, deployment, packaging and content management - Balancing new code and active upstreams verus security updates, back porting and minimization of user breaking changes - Delivering architecture independent software universally across architectures within the confines of distribution systems - Effectively communicating the difference in experience across architectures for developers, packagers, and users - Working with vendors and including them in the community - The future of distributions, emerging trends and evolving user demands from the idea of a platform Ideal submissions are actionable and opinionated. Submissions may be in the form of 25 or 50 minute talks, panel sessions, round-table discussions, or Birds of a Feather (BoF) sessions. Dates -- Submission Deadline: 02-Dec-2018 @ 2359 GMT Acceptance Notification: 7-Dec-2018 Final Schedule Posted: 14-Dec-2018 How to submit -- Visit https://penta.fosdem.org/submission/FOSDEM19 1.) If you do not have an account, create one here 2.) Click 'Create Event' 3.) Enter your presentation details 4.) Be sure to select the Distributions Devroom track! 5.) Submit What to include --- - The title of your submission - A 1-paragraph Abstract - A longer description including the benefit of your talk to your target audience, including a definition of your target audience. - Approximate length / type of submission (talk, BoF, ...) - Links to related websites/blogs/talk material (if any) Administrative Notes We will be live-streaming and recording the Distributions Devroom. Presenting at FOSDEM implies permission to record your session and distribute the recording afterwards. All videos will be made availabl
Re: Cacao Linux - GNUstep based Linux distribution
On Wed, 24 Oct 2018 at 00:47, Sergii Stoian wrote: > You can find answers at github page, section "Why am I doing this?". > Essential point is a "...look, feel, and design principles of NeXTSTEP ". > At past in this list I saw numerous discussions about "boring, gray, outdated > GUI from 90th". I like it and don't want to waste my time for discussions. OK. Personally, I agree on both counts. I think NeXTstep was the best-looking desktop UI ever created, and I don't want any form of modernisation or change. And I also think a rich, complete NeXT-like desktop for Linux is long long overdue. [...] I've edited out my other comments because they were all "OK" or "fair enough". :-) > IMHO GWorkspace is the file manager not the Workspace Manager. For example, > docking applications to WindowMaker Dock with drag and drop from File Viewer > is not possible in GWorkspace by design. There are many such little features > (window and application management, focus switches) which seriously affects > the overall feeling/UX of desktop. Hmmm. All right. >> I'm not trying to challenge you here but I do not really understand >> what you are doing. > > Thank you. I really do understand what am I doing for about 3 years. Heh. :-D I would hope so! > I understand. Gregory has already replied me. Aha! If it was offlist intentionally, then fine. If it was accidentally -- very easy with this list -- then would you both be willing to share it? > Ubuntu has it's own mature desktop. Why it should be replaced? It has about 6! Official default: GNOME 3 Optional: KDE, Maté, Xfce, LXDE, Budgie Unofficial/3rd party: Cinnamon, Enlightenment, Pantheon, and more So it's one of the most desktop-agnostic distros, along with Fedora. They are almost all to some extent Windows-like desktops, though, or things modified from Windows-like desktops. > And it is great. I have Ubuntu installed aside of CentOS on my laptop. > Sometimes Ubuntu losts WiFi, CentOS - never! I like it. > I don't need to spend days trying to understand why my application behaves > wrong after system package updates. H. Interesting. To be fair, I hear things like this a lot from RH advocates. Personally, when I tried RH, both when I worked there and privately, I find it far less reliable than Ubuntu. Stuff doesn't work, needs manual tweaking, or needs 3rd party drivers which RH don't make available as they aren't FOSS. It's just one of those things. Factionalism, which always makes me sad. > I think the user shouldn't know what's inside your working environment: Cocoa > or GNUstep, Linux, Mach or BSD. > As many users of NeXTSTEP just use it's applications without knowing version > of the Mach kernel. ;) If you include Mac OS X users in that, then yes, I see what you mean. Sadly the Linux world is not like that -- except perhaps for Android and ChromeOS. > Because it lets me do my work. And plenty of 3rd party applications works and > supported here (Maya, Davinci Resolve, VirtualBox to name a few). OK. > For example: I switch NEXTSPACE development from FreeBSD to CentOS 7. At that > time CentOS already has systemd, Ubuntu has upstart. Now it's mainstream. > Firefox version is 60.2.2 ESR. What fast-movement do you need? Hmmm. Perhaps I need to try CentOS 7 again. The last time I looked, it contained very old versions of things. > Personally, I really tired of fast movement from GNOME 2 to Unity, from Unity > to GNOME 3 in Ubuntu. I think that is unfair. In its 14 years, Ubuntu switched desktops twice. One to Unity, because its efforts to participate in GNOME 3 development were rebuffed, rudely refused. I supported this. I find the GNOME community hard to interact with and I strongly dislike GNOME 3 myself. And then, 5y later, after a HackerNews discussion, it killed off its own desktop and went back to GNOME 3. This saddened me and I may yet stop using Ubuntu because of it, but it was a pragmatic decision, sadly. > You can install it right now: > https://github.com/trunkmaster/nextspace/wiki/Build-and-install. I had a look. To be honest, it looks considerably more complex than I am comfortable with. ISO files are where I am at. Give me an ISO and I will try it. :-D > As for me, Etoilé is great playground for conceptual architectural > masterpieces without really useful working desktop. It may be. They never released a working ISO, as far as I know, and for a lot of people, myself included, if the instructions start with "get the source here" then we just stop. > My intention more pragmatic: make comfort, fast and useful desktop > environment even in the sake of code beauty. ;) > And I want it to be less featured by more polished in terms of UI/UX and > stability. :
Re: Cacao Linux - GNUstep based Linux distribution
On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 at 01:51, Gregory Casamento wrote: > > Hey, > > All of these are valid points. The reason I rushed it a bit was because I > wanted to spark the discussion and not have it held up on the list until some > unclear decision was made. Is there anything I can do to help in terms of writing words (not code)? I would be delighted to assist with text for the web. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Cacao Linux - GNUstep based Linux distribution
On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 at 22:15, Sergii Stoian wrote: > > GNUstep libraries, libdispatch, libobjc2 and build toolchain. Non-GNUstep is > my code, NeXTstep graphics (icons, login panel). I hope someday it will be > refreshed with new graphics with the NeXT's style. OK. Thanks for the answers so far. So what I would like to ask is: * can you itemise what you are _not_ using, and why? * can you itemise any new components you're creating, and why? * are your new components or code under the same license as GNUstep? If not, why not? * would you be interested in working withing the GNUstep project and passing your changes and new code upstream? If not, why not? > What do you mean "cosmetically"? Icons? Yes. Look and feel? Yes. But it is > much more than just look - that's why I need integration with underlying > system (look below my CentOS explanations) and spend a lot of time to fill > Workspace and applications with uniform, solid user experience (window > management, startup, shutdown, keyboard shortcuts, mouse preferences, screen > and display management). More to come. By "cosmetically" I mean that, for instance, GNUstep already has a workspace manager, but AIUI you are not using it. You say that you're using some of Window Maker but not all. Why not? Are you passing changes upstream to Window Maker? > Not literally forking but current development is based on some outdated > GNUstep libraries Why? > with some patches. Patches are aimed to be included in GNUstep later. OK... but why later? > The main reason is to have some stable base code and focus on applications > and environment. Right now I'm the only developer and do not have time to > align my code with changing GNUstep. Is GNUstep really changing that fast? > After I reach the version 1.0 (it's really close now) I plan to return to > GNUstep libraries (I have patches more ideas not implemented yet for GNUstep: > screnn resolution handling, high DPI and so on). OK. How do you intend to "return"? Take a newer snapshot and work from that? (This is how Ubuntu works with respect to Debian. Basically, every 6 months, they take a snapshot of Debian "sid" and then work from that.) Is it part of your intention that your work all ends up in GNUstep? If not, why not? I'm not trying to challenge you here but I do not really understand what you are doing. You asked: > I didn't quite catch what's Cacao Linux different from NEXTSPACE > (https://github.com/trunkmaster/nextspace)? > Do you plan to include some special frameworks, applications? Is it just > Debian specific GNUstep build? I would say that there are 2 main differences. [1] Gregory wants to use plain code straight from GNUstep and make a Debian-based distro from it. In contrast you seem to be doing your own thing, which happens to be mainly based on GNUstep. [2] Gregory wants a general-purpose distro as a showcase for GNUstep. Not something that inherits from GNUstep and does more, something that shows off what GNUstep is and can do. I hope I understand his intentions correctly. Do you see the difference? > Not that much. It's integrated with some system libraries and tools: Xorg > (Xkb, XRandR), D-Bus, NetworkManager, PulseAudio, UDisks, UPower. It's not > CentOS specific nowadays. Aren't all those things in (for instance) Debian and openSUSE as well? People have strong loyalties to their own distros. Also, some distros are more current, or have better 3rd party support. Today, Ubuntu is more or less the default Linux for most people. There is a lot of 3rd party software that only targets Ubuntu. It's a fairly modern, fairly fast-moving distro with a regular update cycle which is clear and well understood. It's also quite desktop-focus. CentOS is a slow-moving, server-centric distro, owned by RH for reasons that are not clear to me even as a former RH employee. The "official" free RH distro is Fedora. CentOS is a sort of unsupported branch of the much slower-moving RHEL. I personally don't like Fedora much and I don't like RH's package management tools. I prefer SUSE and Ubuntu's tools. My first choice would be Ubuntu, or failing that Debian or Devuan. My second choice would probably be openSUSE because they pay my bills. :-) > I want the NEXTSPACE will be Operating System for users and developers. OK... So why CentOS then? Why a slow-moving server distro without a fixed clear update cycle? > I hope so. And Gregory's kickstarter page quite confusing for that matter. It is, yes, I agree. But remember the FOSS mantra: "release early, release often". Better to get it out there than spend ages polishing it. Failing to do this is what killed Etoilé. -- Liam Proven - Pro
Re: Cacao Linux - GNUstep based Linux distribution
On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 at 01:17, Sergii Stoian wrote: > > Hi Gregory, > > I didn't quite catch what's Cacao Linux different from NEXTSPACE > (https://github.com/trunkmaster/nextspace)? > Do you plan to include some special frameworks, applications? Is it just > Debian specific GNUstep build? That's a good question. You are the author/creator of NEXTSPACE, is that right? Correct me if I am wrong -- my impressions were that: * it's only partly based on GNUstep and includes non-GNUstep stuff that merely cosmetically resembles NeXTstep? * you're forking GNUstep and changing it * it's fairly closely tied to CentOS and not intended to be distro-portable? Saying that, I think you have done a much better job of explaining on your Github page what you're working on and why. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Cacao Linux - GNUstep based Linux distribution
On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 at 01:42, Gregory Casamento wrote: > > All, > > I am launching a kickstarter project to help to create a Linux distribution > based on GNUstep. Please take a look, feel free to make suggestions and > comment. The link is here: This has kicked off an interesting discussion on Reddit. I think everyone here needs to come and take a look, and answer if possible. https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9p9g0l/interesting_in_a_different_desktop/e838pxk/?context=3&utm_content=context&utm_medium=message&utm_source=reddit&utm_name=frontpage Highlight: https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9p9g0l/interesting_in_a_different_desktop/e838pxk/ -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Cacao Linux - GNUstep based Linux distribution
On Thu, 18 Oct 2018 at 01:42, Gregory Casamento wrote: > > All, > > I am launching a kickstarter project to help to create a Linux distribution > based on GNUstep. Please take a look, feel free to make suggestions and > comment. The link is here: > > https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/203272607/the-cacoa-linux-project-a-gnustep-based-distro Oh cool! I have plugged this on Twitter, FB, G+, Reddit and a few other places. Good luck with it. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: SimpleAgenda on FreeBSD
On Tue, 26 Jun 2018 at 14:49, Edwin Ancaer wrote: > > Apparently I'm a top poster also. I never gave much thought to it, it's what > gmail does automatically. If it is considered badd manners, I'll have to do > something about it. It's very easy. Hit Ctrl-A to select all text; this expands the quoted message. Cursor past it, trim as appropriate, reply below. This is exactly what I just did. On mailing lists, one should always bottom-post, as a general rule. I personally hate top-posting. As the famous sig goes: A: Yes. > Q: Are you sure? >> A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation. >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: SimpleAgenda on FreeBSD
On Tue, 26 Jun 2018 at 10:23, wrote: > > i want to be removed from this mailig list with all adresses of the domain > txt.de. Can you help, please? [1] Don't hijack someone else's thread. That is bad manners. [2] Read the signature of any email you get from the list. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Bugs in gui/back
On 25 April 2018 at 17:26, Andreas Höschler wrote: > It might be the time for a complete reinstall of the OS. Since the Linux was > preinstalled on this machine I do not even have an install CD and would have > to create one first. This brings me to the question which distro to use. There is no right answer. There are many strong factions in Linux land and a lot of advocacy. > What's the quickest and cleanest way to set up a Linux/GNUstep machine on > current hardware? Which distro do you recommend? Is there a todo-list > somewhere to get from naked hardware to a working GNUstep desktop somewhere? I use Ubuntu at home and SUSE at work. I formerly worked for Red Hat. For a desktop distro, at present, Ubuntu is as good as it gets. It is simple, clean, polished and as easy as Linux gets, IMHO. > These kind of problems made me stick to Solaris and MacOSX for so long. Both > just worked. This Linux crap gives me a hard time .. :-( Well, Solaris is dead now, sadly. Mac OS X is a fine OS and I also use a Mac desktop at home, but it doesn't run well on cheap commodity hardware. Personally, I hate the keyboards and trackpads on modern Macs, so I don't use the laptops -- I use Thinkpads. Cheap used ones. On them Ubuntu with Unity gives a very Mac-like experience. What hardware do you have that came pre-installed? I ask because it may need drivers. When it comes to generic hardware, as for re-installing it, download 16.04-04 from here: https://www.ubuntu.com/download/desktop You can make a bootable USB key on Windows, Mac or another Linux box. -- Liam Proven • Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven • Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 • ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Bugs in gui/back
On 24 April 2018 at 19:06, Andreas Höschler wrote: > > I tried to get Window Maker to run to figure out whether the problem is > window manager related. I did > add-apt-repository ppa:profzoom/wmaker > apt-get update > apt-get install wmaker Oh dear. Why do it this way? Did you not look at the date on that article? It was from *six years ago*, an extremely long time in FOSS terms. It was designed for a version of Ubuntu *eighte versions* older than yours. I'm afraid I'm not surprised it broke it. Window Maker is in the Ubuntu repositories. You didn't need to add 3rd party sources which are by nature far less well-tested. > Any experiences with Window Maker and its installation on an Ubuntu 16.04 > system? Yes, I installed it from the repos and it worked fine for me. Do a clean install of 16.04. Then add the Synaptic graphical package manager. Add in the latest hardware enablement update. (If you download a new copy this should be built in.) Install the build essentials. Then install Window Maker from the repos. Google for how. *Include the Ubuntu version numbers.* For more guidance, ask on the Ubuntu mailing list -- there are some skilled folk there. Then follow the GNUstep build instructions. -- Liam Proven • Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven • Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 • ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Bugs in gui/back
On 24 April 2018 at 18:53, Andreas Höschler wrote: > Hi Liam, > > I run 16.04, so I guess that will be it. Any idea how to be sure (command to > test this)? The Settings menu at the top right corner of the screen is the simplest way to find out what version of the OS you are running. > May be I should try to get WindowMaker to run on this box and see whether > this makes a difference!? Oh dear. I would have said "no" to that, but it seems it is too late. > Woahhj!! The Linux desktop world is in a period of some flux at the moment, with major infrastructure changes that should substantially modernise the OS. These include: * systemd -- a new init daemon that subsumes a lot of traditional Unix underpinnings * Wayland -- a new display server that replaces the decades-old X Window System, used on all other Unixes (except Mac OS X and Android). These changes will also distance it considerably from more traditional FOSS Unix OSes such as the BSDs (e.g. FreeBSD). However many of them are controversial and widely disliked. It does mean stuff is changing quite fast at present. -- Liam Proven • Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven • Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 • ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Bugs in gui/back
On 24 April 2018 at 17:20, Andreas Höschler wrote: > > I actually don't know. This is a preinstalled Ubuntu system. It has a > vertical doc on the left side of the screen. How do I figure this out? If you can tell me what exact version of Ubuntu you are running, and what desktop, I can tell you what the WM is. E.g. if the version is 16.04 (the current long-term support version), then the default desktop is Unity and the WM is Compiz. If it is the latest released version, 17.10, then the default desktop is GNOME 3 (with Ubuntu customisations) and the window manager is Clutter, but this is inexact as it is not running X.11 but Wayland and there is no traditional WM. If you are running a beta of 18.04, the forthcoming LTS version, then again, it's GNOME 3 and Clutter under Wayland. -- Liam Proven • Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven • Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 • ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Installing gnustep from version control sources
On 13 April 2018 at 15:19, Mick Bert wrote: > Hello > I would like to install gnustep on an old Apple iBook with Lubuntu > 14.04 PowerPC 16.04 also exists for PowerPC. I think you will have more luck with the newer release. -- Liam Proven • Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven • Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 • ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: FOSDEM
On 3 February 2018 at 10:22, Ivan Vučica wrote: > Go room is ridiculously overflowing. I am heading to Janson. Let me know if > you are there. I will be there until after Liam's talk, excepting for lunch > and possibly if we meet for dev. And I did indeed manage to meet Ivan very briefly. I headed to the café but I couldn't find any recognisable group. But a face to a name is still a good thing. Thanks for saying hello! -- Liam Proven • Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven • Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 • ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: GNUMail app and gmail
On 3 December 2017 at 23:08, Daniel Santos wrote: > I configured all the settings, but the console window kept telling me that > the ser ver imap.gmail.com closed the connection. You must configure the Gmail account to make its mail available via IMAP. Also, you may need to tick the box that allows "less secure clients". (Amusingly, this includes collection from a different Gmail account over POP3!) Check with a different client to ensure it's not a server-side problem. -- Liam Proven • Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven • Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 • ČR/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: [INFO] NEXTSPACE
On 29 November 2017 at 18:03, Sergii Stoian wrote: > > But consider the following: > 1. IMHO GNUstep and NEXTSPACE are not the rivals of MacOS (or any other > Apple product) in any form. Moreover GNUstep along with NeXTSTEP can be a > good starting point to future developers of Apple ecosystem (Obj-C and Swift > development environment without need to by a Mac from the start). I see it > this way. Doesn't matter. It contains stolen property. > 2. Apple never used graphics from NeXTSTEP in their products. None of them. Doesn't matter. Apple owns NeXT. Apple owns everything NeXT ever did or made. > 3. There's no icons for all applications (see Preferences as example) in > GNUstep or GNUstep themes. So I need to find another set of icons in > GNOME/KDE themes for example. But it will definitely kill NeXT style of > NEXTSPACE. That's a pity, but you can't use non-Free elements in something and have it still be Free. > 4. NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP is dead for 17 years (latest patch for OPENSTEP dated > 2000). It can't be used on modern hardware with modern software. That people > (like me) need NeXTSTEP equipped with all new functionality that OpenSource > have got during these 17 years. There's no such thing as abandonware. It is still their property. You can't take from it or make it Free. Only Apple can make Apple IP Free, and free for download does not mean Free as in FOSS. > Anyway, I definitely understand the problem. I'll do all my best to find a > solution. Well, good. -- Liam Proven • Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven • Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 • ČR/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: [INFO] NEXTSPACE
On 29 November 2017 at 15:22, Matt Rice wrote: > > IMO yes having the active app's main menu is intuitive and comfortable, > But i am biased, having the main menu available everywhere without > having to move the mouse ever is > helpful. > > I couldn't find a good example of this, and was having trouble > recalling the behavior when you right clicked on e.g. the dock > miniwindows, the title bar, inactive windows. > > so here is a short video... https://youtu.be/1_glOOYIGlc I can't and don't speak for anyone else but I do not really understand what is happening in that video. I think I would find this behaviour extremely confusing. The best model I have ever seen for a context-menu *only* driven UI is Acorn RISC OS. I would urge anyone considering this to play with RISC OS in an emulator. It is the only remaining GUI OS still in development that is contemporaneous with NeXTStep without having had a new, different GUI grafted on. (NeXTStep was first demonstrated in 1988-1988 I believe, around the time of Windows 2. Win3 was totally different, Win95 totally different from Win3, although changes since have been smaller. Classic MacOS is no more. Nor, really, are classic AmigaOS or ST TOS/GEM. RISC OS is also the other OS, along with NeXTStep, to have been the only prior art for the Windows TaskBar.) A FOSS emulator for Acorn machines can be downloaded here: https://www.marutan.net/rpcemu/ RISC OS is freely available and the current version is shared-source freeware: https://www.riscosopen.org/content/ RISC OS machines use a 3-button mouse. The buttons are called Select, Menu & Adjust, left to right. Select works like a normal mouse button. Menu opens a context menu _from whatever app the mouse pointer is over when Menu is pressed_ -- regardless of whether it is active or in front or not. Adjust complements Select. Adjust-clicking the "OK" button does Apply -- it applies changes but leaves the dialog open. Adjust-clicking a scrollbar moves in the opposite direction from Select-clicking it. This way, in GNUstep in the video shown, Menu-clicking Edit would get Edit's main menu; Menu-clicking the Workspace filer in the background would get Workspace.app's main menu. Menu-clicking the desktop gets the desktop or window manager's menu. Menu-clicking the Dock gets the Dock's menu. Etc. This is a very efficient and moderately intuitive model; the RISC OS machines were mainly used for teaching schoolchildren. It has improve compliance with Fitts' Law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitts%27s_law Apple pointed out that a top-of-screen menu bar was a huge target; flick the mouse upwards and you will always hit the menu. No aiming is necessary. NeXTStep menus lose this. Top-of-window menus as in Windows require precision aiming. But RISC OS menus require no mouse movement at all. As long as you are over any of the app's windows at all, you get the app's menu. Pointing at a window and getting the menu of a /different app/ would be wildly confusing, IMHO. It seems like a disastrous idea to me. -- Liam Proven • Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven • Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 • ČR/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: [INFO] NEXTSPACE
On 26 November 2017 at 11:50, Matt Rice wrote: > Cool project, was curious if you had/were planning on implementing the > right click behavior where > instead of bringing up the windowmaker vertical menu, right click on > the root window brings up the > main menu of the currently active application. Given the > workspace/shelf the windowmaker menu > seems a bit superfluous Please bottom-post on mailing lists. I have done a little experimenting with this on people, both with RISC OS -- https://www.riscosopen.org/content/ -- which always and only works this way, and with the ROX desktop -- http://rox.sourceforge.net/desktop/. I find it _really_ confuses people who come from more mainstream desktops with permanently-visible menus: both the Windows and Mac families. Whereas I like it, I think GNUstep should stick to the NeXT model for now. It is part of what makes it distinctive. However, a more conventional & widely-available menu-accelerator key would be a good thing. Either the PC-style Alt for menus, Ctrl for actions (e.g. Alt-F for File, Ctrl-O for open) or a Mac-style Super key (Super-O = open, Super-X = cut, etc.) -- Liam Proven • Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven • Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 • ČR/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: [INFO] NEXTSPACE
On 25 November 2017 at 23:35, Sergii Stoian wrote: > Finally I've decided to inform dear community about my project of last 2+ > years. > I've named is NEXTSPACE. It is SPACE for NeXT applications. > You can find code and brief description of project here > https://github.com/trunkmaster/nextspace. This looks _very_ impressive and exactly the sort of thing I feel that GNUstep needs. I am very impressed. Your work looks amazing. When and how might it be downloaded? How would you feel about your desktop etc. being repackaged for a different distro, such as OpenSUSE? -- Liam Proven • Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven • Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 • ČR/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Fwd: FOSDEM 2018 - Distributions Devroom Call for Participation
Will any GNUstep people be at FOSdem? Prime material for a presentation, I think... -- Liam Proven • Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven • Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 • ČR/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 -- Forwarded message -- Online at: https://lists.fosdem.org/pipermail/fosdem/2017-October/002648.html The Distributions devroom will take place Sunday 4 February 2018 at FOSDEM, in Brussels, Belgium at the Université Libre de Bruxelles. For this year's distributions devroom, we want to focus on the ways that distribution technologies can be leveraged to allow for easier creation of a multi-verse of artifacts from single source trees. We also want to continue to highlight the huge efforts being made in shared environments around Build/Test/Release cycles. We welcome submissions targeted at contributors interested in issues unique to distributions, especially in the following topics: - Distribution and Community collaborations, eg: how does code flow from developers to end users across communities, ensuring trust and code audibility - Automating building software for redistribution to minimize human involvement, eg: bots that branch and build software, bots that participate as team members extending human involvement - Cross-distribution collaboration on common issues, eg: content distribution, infrastructure, and documentation - Growing distribution communities, eg: onboarding new users, helping new contributors learn community values and technology, increasing contributor technical skills, recognizing and rewarding contribution - Principals of Rolling Releases, Long Term Supported Releases (LTS), Feature gated releases, and calendar releases - Distribution construction, installation, deployment, packaging and content management - Balancing new code and active upstreams verus security updates, back porting and minimization of user breaking changes - Delivering architecture independent software universally across architectures within the confines of distribution systems - Effectively communicating the difference in experience across architectures for developers, packagers, and users - Working with vendors and including them in the community - The future of distributions, emerging trends and evolving user demands from the idea of a platform Ideal submissions are actionable and opinionated. Submissions may be in the form of 25 or 50 minute talks, panel sessions, round-table discussions, or Birds of a Feather (BoF) sessions. Dates -- Submission Deadline: 03-Dec-2017 @ 2359 GMT Acceptance Notification: 8-Dec-2017 Final Schedule Posted: 15-Dec-2017 How to submit -- Visit https://penta.fosdem.org/submission/FOSDEM18 1.) If you do not have an account, create one here 2.) Click 'Create Event' 3.) Enter your presentation details 4.) Be sure to select the Distributions Devroom track! 5.) Submit What to include --- - The title of your submission - A 1-paragraph Abstract - A longer description including the benefit of your talk to your target audience, including a definition of your target audience. - Approximate length / type of submission (talk, BoF, ...) - Links to related websites/blogs/talk material (if any) Administrative Notes We will be live-streaming and recording the Distributions Devroom. Presenting at FOSDEM implies permission to record your session and distribute the recording afterwards. All videos will be made available under the standard FOSDEM content license (CC-BY). If you have any questions, feel free to contact the devroom organizers: distributions-devr...@lists.fosdem.org (https://lists.fosdem.org/listinfo/distributions-devroom) Cheers! Brian Exelbierd (twitter: @bexelbie) and Brian Stinson (twitter: @bstinsonmhk) for and on behalf of The Distributions Devroom Program Committee ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Boiling the Oceans [was Re: GNUstep Live on OSnews]
On 2 August 2017 at 15:42, Ivan Vučica wrote: > WebKit's Mac port uses loads of APIs that are available only under macOS, > too. It should not come as a surprise that it heavily relies on Core > Animation, for example, if you compare CA with some of the more recent > additions to CSS (animations, transforms, etc). All right, point. But KHTML still survives, doesn't it? And Blink, which is the Chrome/Chromium fork, so presumably not OS X-dependant? This is not my area of knowledge, so sorry for stating what is probably very obvious and has been examined and disregarded for good reasons. -- Liam Proven • Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven • Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 • ČR/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Boiling the Oceans [was Re: GNUstep Live on OSnews]
On 1 August 2017 at 15:50, Derek Fawcus wrote: > > I recently stumbled across NetSurf [0], which currently has OSX support > (but is about to have it dropped due to it always breaking), and pondered > how difficult it'd be to get workig on gnustep. > > DF > > [0] http://www.netsurf-browser.org/ Originally a browser for Acorn RISC OS. (Another niche OS and desktop I follow. This is the Linux version of the desktop: http://rox.sourceforge.net/desktop/ ) It's a neat little browser but it doesn't support Javascript, so it's very limited on the modern web. However isn't WebKit FOSS and specifically designed for macOS? https://webkit.org/ -- Liam Proven • Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven • Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 • ČR/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Boiling the Oceans [was Re: GNUstep Live on OSnews]
On 31 July 2017 at 21:58, Steven R. Baker wrote: > > Firefox's UI is highly configurable, so I think it can be made to look > "close enough". But you're right, Firefox looking firefox-y means it won't > be a stumbling block for people. We can ignore the web browser issue now, > and maybe in the future get a new WebKit port. What I have previously suggested was something of a quick-and-dirty hack: Take the code Ubuntu wrote and published to integrate Firefox with the Unity desktop, and repurpose it to make Firefox display GNUstep style menus & icon and so on instead. -- Liam Proven • Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven • Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 • ČR/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: GNUstep Live on OSnews
On 31 July 2017 at 21:20, Riccardo Mottola wrote: > Hi Liam, > > > you actually sum up several of GNUstep's goal, but at the same time, the > issues to show it of.. Er, good? :-) > On 31/07/2017 15:56, Liam Proven wrote: >> >> The main concern is if installing a 5MB app sucks in 500MB of >> dependencies and thrashes the disk for 10sec when you load it. > > > The issue is that GS if "fully configured" with all options (libxmk, > libxslt, ICU, cairo... where you pull in other dependencies like freetype, > several X components, all image libraries) and also GWorkspace with its > options (e.g. PDFKit) you and up with that if not more. I know I couldn't > fit an OS on a 2GB SD card for Raspberry. Most of that is usually already > there if you have other GTK apps because it is shared. OK, well, first, honestly, I am not interested in things like GNUstep on RasPi. I am interested in the RasPi and its potential, but its main uses are not as a desktop replacement. It is not very good as one of those, so as a compilation or app-dev target, I think it's less interesting than the generic x86 PC. But as for a 2GB card... I think the only one that small I have is in my ebook reader! My RasPi has a 32GB card in it, I think. > However you can configure things "down"... and this is why I fight so much > about our dependencies. By cutting here and there you cans till get a > complete workspace with GWorkspace, GAP apps and even Dev apps in a 2GB > solid-state-disk of the Letux400 :) And you can do even smaller. I am not sure of exactly what you mean, to be honest, so I can't comment. I am not a programmer so I do not worry about dependencies and so on. If the app installs and works, I am happy. Installing a KDE app on a GNOME machine (or vice versa) will pull in a _lot_ of libraries to satisfy all the dependencies... but then, that does not matter so much on modern machines. >> What GNUstep could provide, it seems to me, boils down to these things: >> >> [1] A NEXTstep-like desktop for Linux (and other free Unices) >> >> As a clean, attractive, lightweight desktop, and a re-creation of one >> of the most widely-admire desktops ever, this has clear appeal. > > > It has, to a very small niche. This is something I want to achieve and I > know and read of people interested from time to time. I have seen some, yes. But if it were actually out there as an option -- as a metapackage that users could pick, same as KDE/GNOME 3/Cinnamon/Maté/Xfce/LXDE/KDE etc. -- then I think it would get more interest. > This has some > "Issues": > - people striving for that are either "minimalist modern" people or > nostalgic people who want something quite polished, stable... and we aren't > even if we improved a lot.. lots of work to do, some is That's an issue, all right. If the code is not stable enough to run usefully. But then, wouldn't it help if someone published enough dependency info that the big distros could include the metadata, so there were 2 options: [_] Install GNUstep desktop environment [_] Install GNUstep development tools and sources Hint -- I'm only interested in #1 personally. :-) That's the main goal I am talking about. Getting to the point where Debian or Ubuntu at least, and ideally Fedora and SUSE, include those 2 tick boxes. And if you tick them in the installer, what boots, first time, has nothing but GNUstep and Window Maker. A complete desktop -- email, chat, text editor, terminal emulator, image viewer, etc, as GNUstep includes all them -- preconfigured and ready to go. Add in whatever bits GNUstep doesn't include from the distro's standard components. Firefox and LibreOffice, mainly. That's it. It's not so much, not so hard. Is it? Then people can install it, try it, use it, and bug reports and so on will start to flow in to improve the completeness of the apps. That's the theory, anyway. > - the nostalgic people ask and want "original" NeXT or OpenStep apps of > which we don't have the sources to "port" them (also, porting them could be > quite a work, especially for NeXT stuff) I think most FOSS users know not to expect proprietary stuff. I would not worry about that. >> [2] A rich, clean set of libraries and programming tools for app >> development >> >> Something that few other desktops can offer and a selling point to >> FOSS developers. > > > For those who like our programming paradigm, yes. And Objective-C ! Ah. Pardon my ignorance. This I did not know. GNUstep apps can _only_ be written in Objective-C? OK, if so... are there any other rival foundation classes for writing GUI apps in Objective-C on Linux? If not, then there's the selling point. If so, then,
Re: GNUstep Live on OSnews
pment Something that few other desktops can offer and a selling point to FOSS developers. [3] Tools for building cross-desktop and cross-platform apps A clear message that the tools do not limit you to the GNUstep desktop, but will run on other desktops as well as Windows and Mac. [4] Tools for building apps against both native macOS and Linux. If 4 selling points aren't enough, what are? But first, there must be something to show people, and the obvious candidate, ISTM, is to show working code. And the way to show working code is to show an installable distro that you can use for your whole computing life, with a whole set of apps. And, just like macOS, as an _optional install_ for the 1% of users who also program, dev tools and libraries. -- Liam Proven • Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven • Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 • ČR/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: GNUstep Live on OSnews
On 31 July 2017 at 12:38, Xavier Brochard wrote: > > Hi Riccardo > > One problem is that the GNUstep project has nearly nothing to show to end > users (except screenshots and descriptions). As a consequence a lot of people > doesn't understand the project. They want to do a quick try but they can't. > (in France we have the great http://linuxfr.org website where such questions > often comes.) > > As I've always wanted to work on a light desktop using GNUstep, I propose to > work on this : > Even if the project is not about building a desktop, a lots of components are > already present. My idea is to write a short how-to that can be polished along > the time. It should answer to such basic questions that are evident for the > team but not for the others : > - which Window Manager can I choose ? which one for that task ? > - how should I configure GWorkspace ? > - where can I find themes ? > - can I take some Etoilé components ? > etc. > > Hence, starting with something light and extending it later. Nothing related > to development but to building a working environment. I think it can help to > attract devs because one can see what small apps / components are missing, and > start to develop using GNUstep framework and tools. > > Later this how-to can serve as a basis for better packaging in distribs. > > I'm a sysadmin, working with end users in mind, trying to install simple, rock > and solid desktops for them. But I'm not a dev, I will have a lot of questions > to ask... > Who wants to help ? Happy to help. But it's tricky and part of that is the unfocussed nature of the GNUstep project. Yes, it's a set of programming libraries, but it's also a desktop, and possibly the least-known Linux desktop. I have long wanted to build an Ubuntu or Debian remix with a GNUstep desktop, but I lack sufficient technical skills. The packages in both Ubuntu and the stable release of Debian are long out of date, but if the packages are not drawn from the repos, it cannot be called an Ubuntu Remix according to Canonical's rules. I had chosen Ubuntu simply because I use it myself and have since it was first launched. It's the most widely-used distro so help, support, drivers and so on are readily available. However, soon I will start a contract job with SUSE, so I may see if I can build one using SUSE instead. This would solve the issue of missing system-administration tools, as SUSE has its own complete integrated sysadmin tool, YAST. SUSE also offers extensive automated online package-building tools, so I may be able to work around the problem of outdated distro packages. I think it would be good for the GNUstep project. [1] If the distro were a fairly complete, usable, lightweight offering and so attracted some users and interest, then it would draw attention and interest to GNUstep. [2] If it got people using the apps, this should result in bug reports, pull requests, code contributions, and so on. [3] If people tried hacking on the code and discovered that the tools were good and the libraries useful, this would result in more usage and adoption. Especially if people found that they could build KDE or GNOME apps using GNUstep, or cross-platform apps. As it is, the project is very obscure and most people I talk to in the FOSS community have never heard of it. Those who have think it is long dead. -- Liam Proven • Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven • Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 • ČR/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
GNUstep Live on OSnews
http://www.osnews.com/story/29939/GNUSTEP_live_CD_2_5_released Also, there's a new release of GNUstep Live! :-) -- Liam Proven • Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven • Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 • ČR/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Debian
I have never previously noticed this page: https://wiki.debian.org/DebianGNUstep I just tried it. It worked. But it's GWorkspace 0.8.8 from 06/2010. IOW Debian is still including an ancient version of GNUstep. Are there newer Debian packages anywhere? -- Liam Proven • Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven • Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 • ČR/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: FOSDEM
On 29 January 2017 at 00:12, Steven R. Baker wrote: > Heya folks, > > I'm heading to FOSDEM next weekend, and plan to be doing some GNUstep > hacking with a friend. Who else on the list is going? We should try to get > together. > > Cheers! > > -Steven I might be and would be delighted to meet any listmembers. :-) -- Liam Proven • Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven • Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 • ČR/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: mulle-objc #MakeObjCGreatAgain
On 2 December 2016 at 15:04, Edwin Ancaer wrote: > I don't have experience with this kind of varied environments, so this might > be a stupid question... > > let's imagine I created this wonderful application with GNUstep. > And imagine that for a popular Linux distribution there is a packaged > version for GNUstep (base, make, gui & back) made with compiler A and > runtime A. > And then again, imagine I packaged my application for this distibution, but > with Compiler B/Runtime B ; > > If someone used the package manager to install GNUstep and my application, > would this be guaranteed to be working? You really should not hijack someone else's thread. Start a new one with its own subject line. -- Liam Proven • Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven • Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 • ČR/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: piStep Development Project
On 20 March 2016 at 18:04, Adam S wrote: > Please let me know if you would like to join our small but focused team in > the piStep group on Slack. https://drewdevault.com/2015/11/01/Please-stop-using-slack.html Adam, I commend your enthusiasm, but you don't seem to really grasp how open-source development works. You need to learn to fit in with how things are done or all your publicity and energy will be futile and a waste of effort. -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR) ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Questions
On 1 March 2016 at 20:20, Xavier Brochard wrote: > Oh please, stop abusing yourself. > This is not the first complain against your posts. I would like to record that I am now receiving personal, off-list, abusive messages from Mr O'Leary now, who appears to be trying to upset me with personal vitriolic attacks. He is failing, but list members of a more sensitive disposition should be warned, and I felt that the list moderators should know about this. -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR) ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Questions
On 1 March 2016 at 13:59, Luboš Doležel wrote: >> I don't use VMware, though -- only VirtualBox. So, sadly, useless to >> me and anyone who strongly prefers FOSS tools. >> > > OS X does run under VirtualBox, but the performance of OS X in any VM is > *very* poor. Interesting. I had read this, but tried both ordinary and Hackintosh editions and could not get it to install. -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR) ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Questions
On 1 March 2016 at 10:15, Maxthon Chan wrote: > Let’s not forget those OSx86 folks and their wonderful VMware Unlocker. I'd not heard of that before, even though I successfully built myself a Hackintosh back when I lived in the UK using tools from that community. I don't use VMware, though -- only VirtualBox. So, sadly, useless to me and anyone who strongly prefers FOSS tools. -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR) ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Questions
On 1 March 2016 at 10:10, Luboš Doležel wrote: > When this is brought up, I always interject :-) > > http://www.darlinghq.org. Already runs many binaries, Ah, yes, I knew there was one but I didn't know it had made progress. Good to hear. I apologise that I was unable to remember the name, and thanks for supplying it. -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR) ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Questions (was: Re: A Critique: Getting Started with GNUstep on Windows)
On 28 February 2016 at 19:42, Doc O'Leary wrote: > For your reference, records indicate that > Liam Proven wrote: > >> On 26 February 2016 at 01:02, Svetlana A. Tkachenko >> wrote: >> > IMHO the goal of gnustep is being a platform which open-source mac apps >> > can be ported to so that people don't have to run a proprietary kernel >> > to use these apps. >> >> What? What an incredibly strange, narrow, weird goal. > > There is nothing outlandish about wanting to use GNUstep to run > existing Cocoa apps. Quote: *run existing Cocoa apps* Do you mean to try to run Mac binaries on Linux? If so, that is the domain of an emulator. One that is trying to emulate a proprietary platform which is the property of a very large, wealthy, litigious company. That is unreasonable and unrealistic IMHO. Outlandish is your term, not mine. > If it is as narrow a goal as you say, it seems > like it should be subsumed under whatever larger vision there might > be for the project. Why does it need to have a "larger vision"? > The purpose of this discussion is to see if there *is* a shared aim that > can be cooperatively achieved. Is it? Since when? Says who? > If there isn’t, the GNUstep project > should explicitly state that it will not welcome code or coders that > work with Apple platforms. Why? I see no connection at all. > And yet you don’t state the reasons for your interest, so you don’t > really add to the discussion of the bigger picture. I don't think it's relevant. Anyway, I've discussed it previously. I am interested in it as a NeXTstep-like desktop environment. Nothing more. > No, scratching itches is simply *one* possible starting point for a > project. Who said anything about *starting* a project? That, too, is irrelevant. GNUstep is a mature, long-standing project. How it started is irrelevant. > There is a vast graveyard of open source projects that never > go anywhere because they never strive to be *more* than ego-driven > coding. Some of us still have hopes that GNUstep can escape that kind > of dead end. Me too. So? Do you think mission statements will help? >> That -- that's /insane/. > > That’s the world. If reality seems insane to you, that’s *your* problem. > Seek professional medical help. That is ad-hominem, confrontational, hostile and a non-sequitur. I am not calling Ms Tkachenko insane, as you assert elsewhere, and I reject that offensive accusation. I am saying that to run an entire OS to access a single non-unique app -- and then not use the actual native OS to run it, but a third-party reverse-engineered one -- is not a reasonable technical decision. I see others have quit the list already over your offensive and hostile posts. I am very close to doing the same. I suggest that you change your manner, or leave altogether, before you destroy this part of the community. I would be very sorry to see that happen. -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR) ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Questions (was: Re: A Critique: Getting Started with GNUstep on Windows)
On 26 February 2016 at 01:02, Svetlana A. Tkachenko wrote: > IMHO the goal of gnustep is being a platform which open-source mac apps > can be ported to so that people don't have to run a proprietary kernel > to use these apps. What? What an incredibly strange, narrow, weird goal. I suggest that you need to learn the difference between a single goal (one shared aim that everyone works towards cooperatively) and your own personal primary purpose. What you describe is not even remotely connected with why I am interested in GNUstep. It is not on my top 10; it's not on my list at all. And that is what FOSS is about. Different people scratching their own itches. It's profoundly different from a company trying to make a product to sell. > Just like ReactOS is there for people to use Notepad++ without having to > purchase the proprietary OS. That -- that's /insane/. I mean, who would ever do that? Notepad++ is a decent editor but nothing special. If you really wanted and you are deeply opposed to proprietary OSes, you could run it under WINE, I guess. But installing and trying to use an unfinished research OS for one Windows app? Madness! -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR) ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Plans for ahead
On 30 November 2015 at 16:25, Derek Fawcus wrote: > Hmm - how would the Amiga Style differ from the others? A quick poke around > suggests it would be a but Mac like, in that it had a global menu at the > top of the screen, but how else would one compare and contrast to the others? Notable characteristics of the original Amiga OS: * there is a top global menu bar, but it only appears on clicking the right mouse button, like a context menu; when the mouse button is not clicked, it's a status bar. * drive icons on the desktop. * (On classic hardware) Full-screen windows can be in different graphics modes to one another; dragging a window down reveals a different-resolution display. * (In modern versions) A dock-like app launcher, typically along the screen bottom. -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR) ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Plans for ahead
On 29 November 2015 at 22:51, Riccardo Mottola wrote: > I agree on that statement! the problem is that the whole thread here shows > that nobody here agrees with the other one on how to improve it. Some say > look, some say application, some say configuration tools, some want this, > that, whatever. And that is the key thing. If we can get more exposure for GNUstep, get it in front of more people, get it better known, then it will get more interest, more code contributions, more development. I don't want to change it. Improve it, yes. Change it, no. I am not a programmer. I am not at all interested in the programming tools or the use of GNUstep as a framework. That is for others who know and care about such things. I'm in part interested in it because it looks like NeXTstep, and I think NeXTstep is the best-looking desktop there has ever been. So I am strongly opposed to those who want new themes: I think it already is nearly perfect and all the alternative themes are less attractive, to me. What I suggest is just getting it running well on Ubuntu. I'm not really interested in Debian or any other distros, and less interested in other OSes. Not that I do not want it to work on them -- I very much do -- but I like and favour Ubuntu. I want to make an Ubuntu GNUstep remix. Not a live CD -- there is less need for those now that we have VMs. I do have a Raspberry Pi; I run RISC OS on it. I am not remotely interested in PiStep, or NeXT-shaped Pi cases. Frankly they sound silly to me. As a GNU project, a kickstarter seems strange and irrelevant to me, but hey, people need paying for their efforts. I am not interested in running GNUstep on $DISTRO on Raspberry Pi, because my Pi is the least powerful, least capable modern computer I own; everything else is faster, has more storage, is more expandable, etc. But Debian/Ubuntu packages -- better still, upstream inclusion -- would help everyone, whether they want "modern" themes or better dev tools or desktops for tiny cheap computers. Even if you don't use Debian/Ubuntu or even Linux at all, more users and more developers would be good for the project. -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR) ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: NeXT GNU Homage Project Work
On 21 November 2015 at 14:55, wrote: > I'm sure you don't know what is ease-of-use. Listen, kid, your choices and preferences are your own. Enjoy, have fun. But don't post swear-word filled rants about how someone who disagrees with you is talking rubbish. I've been professionally evaluating and reviewing computers and operating systems since the late 1980s. I have met very few people in the field who know more than me; they do exist, most of them are even older than me, and they don't post long swearing-filled rants online telling me that I know nothing. I know whereof I speak. I don't really care about your preferences. What you like or do not like does not bother me at all. Prove you know more than me, teach me something, then I will listen. Until then, sit down, be quiet, read and learn. When you don't have to swear and call people idiots, then you may have learned enough to offer useful insight. Not before. -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR) ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: NeXT GNU Homage Project Work
On 18 November 2015 at 00:53, Riccardo Mottola wrote: > > It is widely used. The other statements I dissent about. > Debian has really questionable "ease of install" when it comes to firmware > and drivers, for example. Mint > Ubuntu > Debian. You choose how Free you want, and you get the level of ease-of-use according to that. > Systemd is a pain you get Only if you care. Most people don't. My machine with 15.10 on started booting /dramatically/ faster after the version upgrade that installed systemd. I was impressed and like it. I don't give a damn about scripts/logging format/etc., just that it works. > and many other things I do need to "tailor" before > I have a usable system Yes, Debian is a bit like that. Which is why I use Ubuntu, which works out-of-the-box and to which I can add proprietary codec support with a single command. > debian and it is not so easy to update either if you > don't want to break things. This is the direct opposite of my experience, but I appreciate that others' experiences differ from mine. As I said, I've never once managed to get an install of FreeBSD to /both/ see the internet /and/ have a working GUI except via distros such as GhostBSD and PC-BSD. > On OpenBSD I just install the system major dependencies are a breeze and > work my way up to GNUstep without pain. But that is personal preference. Yes indeed. I do not mean to dismiss *BSD -- they're fine OSes if you have the skills to use them. If you don't, Linux is easier and Ubuntu is the easiest Linux in my extensive experience over the last 19 years. >> *That* is what should be the #1 priority to support well with GNUstep. > > We do support Debian and Ubuntu very well. I am beginning to think that you live in a different, parallel universe to me. "Support Debian/Ubuntu well" means: * add repo * install metapackage And you're done. N.B. Ubuntu does not include a compiler by default. Users having to build from source does *not* mean "supports well". I have not had to build components from source since the 1990s. > I have GNUstep on Raspbian > working quite fine. Good for you. > We are not directly responsible for the quality of packages supplied, so the > two things need to be separated. AFAICT the GNUstep project doesn't supply packages *at all*. There are Philippe's ones and that's all. However, the downstream distros do, so someone needs to find where they come from and get them updated -- or removed, as currently they give a very bad impression. > We also do work well on SuSE and those packages appear to be far more > complete. Stopped using it in 2004; not looked since except for review purposes. It's largely a corporate-only tool now, it seems to me. > During the Dublin meeting, both Debian and SuSE packages were discussed and > Ivan is working to get us better custom DEB packages. This doesn't mean > directly that "official" packages will benefit, we would need a DD for a > good sponsor for that. Good news. I talked to SUSE at LinuxCon Europe last month, and the company is very proud of its online automated package-factory tool, which supports the other leading distros as well as SUSE. I have contemplated seeing if I can make that build GNUstep from source, but I don't really know where to begin -- it's something I've not done this century, as I said. >> The answer to the problem "I can't install GNUstep on Ubuntu or >> Debian" is_not_ "install FreeBSD instead". It's not "install >> $ANY_OTHER_OS". > > > I just mentioned that there are other OS and that they are of high quality, > have better out-of-the-box GNUstep experience and that they are easy or even > easier to maintain. That's all. I strongly dispute the "easy or easier to maintain" part, but otherwise, sure, yes, that is great stuff and a good thing. But GNUstep needs to provide binaries for the industry-leading distro(s). Actually, it needed them a decade ago, but better late than never. -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR) ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: NeXT GNU Homage Project Work
On 17 November 2015 at 18:18, Riccardo Mottola wrote: > > I dissent this, I have installed various systems and on a standard > configuration, especially if you can jsut partition one single disk, I found > all three major BSDs easy to install like Linux. > > The installer is nicely text based, but it is easy and leaves you a working > system. Especially OpenBSD is extremely easy to maintain. It has an > excellent way to update your packages every 6 months, seamless upgrades. > > Granted,I upgraded my FreeBSD workstation and X now doesn't work.. but on my > laptop freezes due to X drivers now and then too, so I'd call that a tie! I am not disputing your experiences, but mine are radically different. And while it is slightly off the direct topic, I think it is relevant. While it is a good thing that there are OSes that have a working current version of the GNUstep environment, I submit that, increasingly, Linux means the Debian family, and for most people, specifically Ubuntu. It is the easiest to install, the easiest to update, the most rich and complete and widely-supported free OS that exists. *That* is what should be the #1 priority to support well with GNUstep. The answer to the problem "I can't install GNUstep on Ubuntu or Debian" is _not_ "install FreeBSD instead". It's not "install $ANY_OTHER_OS". It's to have current, working packages for Debian and to get them included in the Debian OS so that they are also available to downstream projects such as Ubuntu. Ubuntu is something like 20x more widely-used than any other distro based on accesses to Wikipedia: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1970241 Even tech-geek sites see 3x more traffic from Ubuntu than from any other distro: http://redmonk.com/dberkholz/2013/05/20/ranking-linux-distributions-and-the-decline-of-the-traditional-distros/ I'm not saying Ubuntu is perfect. It's not. But it's the leading distro, it offers all the major desktops, it has official remixes with Unity, KDE, GNOME 3, Maté, Xfce and LXDE, and it does have (horribly outdated) GNUstep packages in its repos. There is also a current Raspberry Pi version. This is what we need to target if we want people to see and try GNUstep. And everything that argues for Ubuntu over Fedora/SUSE/Arch/$DISTRO is true 10x over for Linux versus any BSD. All the BSDs together have orders of magnitude fewer users than Linux, and most of those on servers. -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR) ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: NeXT GNU Homage Project Work
On 16 November 2015 at 21:24, David Chisnall wrote: > This is not true. We have working 3D on FreeBSD with the RPi. The code for > the 3D accelerator on the RPi 2 was just updated: I sit corrected, and my apologies for the disinformation. Saying that, though, I reluctantly stand by the rest. Let's put it this way: I've been working with, building and maintaining Unix machines professionally since 1988. Systems I've designed, built and maintained have handled reliably handled transactions of over half a billion US dollars a day for years on end. I am not a newbie. I am unable to install FreeBSD on a generic PC and get it to a working graphical desktop with Internet access. I have tried, repeatedly, over the last decade and a half or more. My last attempt was with FreeBSD 9.x and it failed like all those before it. My most recent attempt with a remix was last month, with Midnight BSD, under VirtualBox. It has no GUI; the packages for X.11 are missing from the repo. According to a reply on Google+ this is a known problem with no workaround. Initiates do not encounter this kind of problem, as they have the requisite knowledge and cannot easily step into the mindset of someone who lacks it. FreeBSD is *substantially* harder to get working than Linux. The other BSDs are harder than FreeBSD. As such, except for the determined or the already highly-skilled, I do not recommend them. For curious Raspberry Pi owners, who have probably never seen anything but Windows before, it is not a viable option. -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR) ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: NeXT GNU Homage Project Work
On 13 November 2015 at 21:22, carlos antonio neira bustos wrote: > I thought of something like a NeXT black cube but using NetBSD and GNUStep > and a raspberry pi 2. NetBSD is quite a lot more primitive than Linux. E.g. Linux (and only Linux) has graphical acceleration on RasPi, NetBSD does not. Linux can recognise and handle most arbitrary USB devices, NetBSD probably won't. Pretty much all the Howtos and docs online about RasPi discuss Linux -- I know this because I run Risc OS on mine, and there's very little info about that. Configuring networking on Linux is relatively simple because of tools like NetworkManager. (For users that dislike GNOME tools, there's Wicd, but it's basic and rather ugly.) NetBSD doesn't have anything like that. If you want to make it relatively easy and accessible to non-experts, Linux, mainly Raspian on the RasPi, is the only serious option, I'm afraid. Because of this list, I tried OpenBSD for the first time a couple of years ago. I was shocked at how crude and primitive it felt compared to Linux, to be honest. It's aimed at a very different type of user. I've been saying for years that we need a GNUstep Ubuntu remix if we're going to attract any serious interest to the product, but it seems to me that the community don't really use it as a desktop and aren't interested in that role for it. -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR) ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Debian and Ubuntu packages - 2015/06/03
On 6 June 2015 at 14:44, Philippe Roussel wrote: > Honestly I don't even know why I'm building those packages. I don't > use them and I mostly stopped using GNUstep all together (for various > reasons), I'm not going to invest more time in this. Well, I am very grateful to you and I will be using them! -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR) ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: Ubuntu packages
On 3 November 2014 07:58, Philippe Roussel wrote: > Yeah, I never found the energy to understand why my (stupid) build > system stopped working after a svn update on gnustep-core... > > I soon will have more free time so if there's interest I could work on > those packages again. > I am sorry to hear that, and I for one am definitely interested! I would suggest that you only support the latest LTS release, though, to cut the workload a little. -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR) ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Ubuntu packages
I see that Ivan Vučica has made some Ubuntu packages of the core system, but Philippe, are you still building your Ubuntu/Debian GNUstep packages as well? I see no updates for a long time -- about a year ago. :¬( -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR) ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: What would be the most complete GNUStep system?
On 27 October 2014 13:09, Riccardo Mottola wrote: > ouch, that hurts! As one of the core developers in GAP! Being not known is a > problem! > > http://gap.nongnu.org > > Don't you see the App release announcements? Many come from here. > > Short for "GNUstep Application Project" it is the home of many applications > and frameworks either Freshly developed or ported. It is also the place > where many existing applications that were unmaintained and where bitrotting > found a home and get at least some maintenance and bugfix care. > > > > It is not really a "complete DE" and Etoile has for now more comprehensive > (and perhaps more radical) goals, but we are a small team and try to keep up > with the applications and tools first. > > Riccardo > > PS: for the sake of completeness, there is a third project involved in > enhancing your desktop experience: Backbone. I forgot to mention it because > it follows the philosophy of continuous development (=get your stuff from > SVN/GIT) and did not release or announce anything since a long time. I don't > know in which state it is. http://www.nongnu.org/backbone/ > Actually, for this reason GAP has its copy of Terminal.app for now. Sorry! :¬( I understand now. I think I have seen the site before but in this context I didn't understand. I thought it was a different GNUstep-based desktop, comparable to Étoilé. Here is an idea for you. Not a well-thought-out proposal, merely a suggestion. GNUstep really needs its own web browser and its own chat client, I would say. Everything else is there already. Firefox is very reconfigurable. Ubuntu has a Firefox Ubuntu extension that makes Firefox "fit" with the Unity environment -- its single menu bar at the top of the screen, control via the HUD, icon notifications etc. If someone took that extension and reconfigured it, Firefox could have a GNUstep menu bar and fit into the GNUstep environment really nicely. It does not even need to be written from scratch -- just adapted. https://apps.ubuntu.com/cat/applications/xul-ext-ubufox/ https://launchpad.net/ubufox And if there were a GNUstep-branded Google Search page as the homepage, it would bring in a little revenue for the GNUstep project, as well. :¬) -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR) ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: What would be the most complete GNUStep system?
On 27 October 2014 00:28, Riccardo Mottola wrote: > Other applications to get a more complete environment you can pick among the > two major desktop projects, GAP and Etoilé, What is this GAP? I've not heard of it. > What you ask, however, is more: tight integration with an OS. That's tricky. > I can tell you that GNUStep runs, when compiled from source, quite well on > most major free operationg systems. Most flavours of Linux (I test Debian > and Gentoo) and NetBSD, OpenBSD and FreeBSD. However, GNUstep has many > configuration options, so the official packages of these OS's may be > configured differently, usually to be more linux and FHS compliant. If you > want a Mac like experience, none of them is your choice, really. Agreed. ElementaryOS has something somewhat OS X-like, but it's based off GNOME 3, sadly. Maybe if they knew of GNUstep they would have used it instead. :'( > To get the most Mac-like experience, you need to configure with the > GNUstep-layout and with a root as /, so that you get directories like > /System/Applications. I'd say that all cited operating systems right now are > quite well supported. > > Bundles? Yes, we do have them. For apps, frameworks, loadable bundles, > themse and also documents (like RTFD) in pure OpenStep/Mac style. Most > distributions, for example ebian, try to break these bundles up however, > since they are alien to the typical file system layout enforced by various > policies. It may work, but it is not what you are looking for. That's a good insight. It is also a real problem for the ROX Desktop project, my *other* favourite obscure Linux desktop. ;¬) ROX just (!) invented its own packaging system to get around this -- 0launch. > I don't know if we support "Fat bundles" and especially how sense they have > in the more fragmented OS environment which, for example, many different > Linux OS's. > > As for DMGs, I know that you feel they are convenient and how they very > easily can be virtually monuted, burned onto optical media or (in old times) > to floppies. I don't think we have support for that though and how it could > be implemented in a portable way. I am also not 100% sure it would be a good idea. I really love Debian's APT, as used in Ubuntu etc. It is far far better than the OS X way of doing things. I just don't like the way it scatter-guns components all through dozens of inscrutably-named little directories buried in a cryptically-named filesystem hierarchy built on the principles of 1970s-1980s server maintenance good practice. > So for your specific question I don't think one OS will be better than > another Well, me, I would say 1 of 2 ways offers potential. [1] run it on Ubuntu and put up with the weird Linux FHS. That way you get a solid, widely- and well-supported OS [2] Get involved, help get GNUstep running on Gobo, and get a sensible, readable, understandable filesystem hierarchy with clean separation between packages and versions, but it's going to require work to get it to ready-for-prime-time. -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR) ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
Re: What would be the most complete GNUStep system?
On 26 October 2014 11:19, Asiga Nael wrote: > > Isn't there any OS that considers GNUStep as the most important part of the > OS while supporting the 3 features that I love from OSX (app bundles, > dmg-like support, fat binaries)? > > If such OS exists, please tell, as it would be my natural move from OSX. Sadly, no, it does not exist. Never has. There is a FOSS project called Étoilé but they do not observe the FOSS mantra of "release early, release often" -- in fact I don't think they have ever made an official release, and there's not been a binary snapshot in a decade or so. I have long meant to, and done some preliminary fiddling and testing towards making, a metadistro of Ubuntu LTS + GNUstep, but I don't really have the skills. However, this would still have the deep nastiness of a normal Linux filesystem underneath. There is a Linux which fixes this, called GoboLinux -- but there's no GNUstep release for it and I lack the skills. At present, and for the foreseeable, GNUstep is a programmer's toolkit, which it happens to be possible to compile and run as a partial, slightly flakey, somewhat feature-poor desktop environment. It is not a "full" desktop, it's weirdly nonstandard in many ways that you wouldn't expect in 21st century software (but then, it's a clone of NeXTstep, and NeXTstep was 1980s software) and no Linux distro incorporates it as a desktop -- not even partially and incompletely. It's sad. If there were, the project would get a lot more attention. -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR) ___ Discuss-gnustep mailing list Discuss-gnustep@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss-gnustep
