Re: People think we are for nostalgics or dead.
I have updated the website recently to show the themes. I am also posting, pretty much daily, about progress with GNUstep on twitter. The best we can do is to try to put ourselves out there the way we really are. Looking at GNUstep's stats on github tells the story that we are not dead. Also, the discussion on hackernews showed that a lot of people are turning around their opinions. We will not change the general impression of the project in a day (or even a month or a year) but if we persist in making it known that we are not a bunch of Luddites, then people will, eventually, pick up on that. We must strive to change people's opinions. GC On Wed, Dec 22, 2021 at 5:31 AM lars.sonchocky-helld...@hamburg.de < lars.sonchocky-helld...@hamburg.de> wrote: > Hi there, > > > obviously we have a problem with our representation to the world. People > think we are for nostalgics or dead. I know, we had this discussion many > times before (lengthy at times), but the situation doesn’t seem to be > resolved. IIRC after the last discussion about our web presence the only > „measure“ that was taken was to add an screenshot „carousel“ to the front > page … not enough IMHO … > > Why I am writing this now? Well on the german internet news site > https://heise.de/newsticker there was an news article about NeXT being > bought by Apple 25 years ago. > In the associated discussion forum there was a mention of our web > presence, http://www.gnustep.org/: > > > https://www-heise-de.translate.goog/forum/heise-online/Kommentare/Vor-25-Jahren-Apple-kauft-Next-mitsamt-Steve-Jobs/GNUStep/posting-40185491/show/?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de > > it mentioned our web presence correctly but with the appendage "for > nostalgics“. > > In the reactions to this post there another misconceptions like: > > > https://www-heise-de.translate.goog/forum/heise-online/Kommentare/Vor-25-Jahren-Apple-kauft-Next-mitsamt-Steve-Jobs/Re-GNUStep/posting-40187338/show/?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de > > quote: "Nice, really! Unfortunately a little lifeless since 2018, or am I > wrong?“ > > this impression was gained when viewing our website! > > Think about it. > > > kind regards and happy holidays, > > Lars > -- Gregory Casamento GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron https://gf.me/u/x8m3sx - My GNUstep GoFundMe https://teespring.com/stores/gnustep - Store
Re: People think we are for nostalgics or dead.
> Am 22.12.2021 um 12:20 schrieb Gregory Casamento : > > > I have updated the website recently to show the themes. > > I am also posting, pretty much daily, about progress with GNUstep on twitter. So maybe we should integrate the twitter-feed https://twitter.com/search?q=GNUstep&f=live&vertical=default somehow into our website? > The best we can do is to try to put ourselves out there the way we really > are. Looking at GNUstep's stats on github tells the story that we are not > dead. Obviously it is not obvious from visiting our website that GNUstep has a GitHub presence. It needs to be more „into the face“ to make people realize this. > > Also, the discussion on hackernews showed that a lot of people are turning > around their opinions. We will not change the general impression of the > project in a day (or even a month or a year) but if we persist in making it > known that we are not a bunch of Luddites, then people will, eventually, pick > up on that. > > We must strive to change people's opinions. True. But I still think we could do a better job with our website. > > GC cheers, Lars
Re: People think we are for nostalgics or dead.
On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 at 12:21, Gregory Casamento wrote: > > I have updated the website recently to show the themes. > > I am also posting, pretty much daily, about progress with GNUstep on twitter. > The best we can do is to try to put ourselves out there the way we really > are. Looking at GNUstep's stats on github tells the story that we are not > dead. > > Also, the discussion on hackernews showed that a lot of people are turning > around their opinions. We will not change the general impression of the > project in a day (or even a month or a year) but if we persist in making it > known that we are not a bunch of Luddites, then people will, eventually, pick > up on that. > > We must strive to change people's opinions. What is the best way to suggest text changes, new content, new links etc. for the website? Greg, since I note you now have your own Twitter account – @bheron (and may I ask why that? Just curious) – then I suggest you, or the community, or something, take your name off @gnustep and try to post something on there every day. www.bufferapp.com may be useful for this. I use a free account there myself. You can put a load of stuff in, every day, and schedule when it gets posted. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
Re: People think we are for nostalgics or dead.
Lars, On Wed, Dec 22, 2021 at 6:30 AM lars.sonchocky-helld...@hamburg.de < lars.sonchocky-helld...@hamburg.de> wrote: > > > Am 22.12.2021 um 12:20 schrieb Gregory Casamento >: > > > I have updated the website recently to show the themes. > > I am also posting, pretty much daily, about progress with GNUstep on > twitter. > > > So maybe we should integrate the twitter-feed > https://twitter.com/search?q=GNUstep&f=live&vertical=default somehow into > our website? > Would be nice. We could track all mentions of #gnustep on twitter. > The best we can do is to try to put ourselves out there the way we > really are. Looking at GNUstep's stats on github tells the story that we > are not dead. > > > Obviously it is not obvious from visiting our website that GNUstep has a > GitHub presence. It needs to be more „into the face“ to make people realize > this. > You're right, we should add a reference to github on the main website. > Also, the discussion on hackernews showed that a lot of people are turning > around their opinions. We will not change the general impression of the > project in a day (or even a month or a year) but if we persist in making it > known that we are not a bunch of Luddites, then people will, eventually, > pick up on that. > > We must strive to change people's opinions. > > > True. But I still think we could do a better job with our website. > > Indeed, I believe you were the one to mention this at the first quarterly meeting. > > GC > > > cheers, > > Lars > -- Gregory Casamento GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron https://gf.me/u/x8m3sx - My GNUstep GoFundMe https://teespring.com/stores/gnustep - Store
Re: People think we are for nostalgics or dead.
Liam, On Wed, Dec 22, 2021 at 6:43 AM Liam Proven wrote: > On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 at 12:21, Gregory Casamento > wrote: > > > > I have updated the website recently to show the themes. > > > > I am also posting, pretty much daily, about progress with GNUstep on > twitter. The best we can do is to try to put ourselves out there the way > we really are. Looking at GNUstep's stats on github tells the story that > we are not dead. > > > > Also, the discussion on hackernews showed that a lot of people are > turning around their opinions. We will not change the general impression > of the project in a day (or even a month or a year) but if we persist in > making it known that we are not a bunch of Luddites, then people will, > eventually, pick up on that. > > > > We must strive to change people's opinions. > > What is the best way to suggest text changes, new content, new links > etc. for the website? > > Right now the website is still hosted on CVS on savannah.org... (I know)... I am going to change this, but at the moment I need some assistance since there are some things in the hosting (at gandi.net) which complicate moving the site. More on that in another email. A strong argument for moving the site is that it is currently hosted on a very old machine. There is a duplicate of the site at g...@github.com:gnustep/gnustep-github-io.git (https://gnustep.github.io). So, for now the best thing to do is to make suggestions here. Once I get it moved, you can submit PRs. > Greg, since I note you now have your own Twitter account – @bheron > (and may I ask why that? Just curious) – then I suggest you, or the > community, or something, take your name off @gnustep and try to post > something on there every day. > That's a good idea. Originally that was my intention, but it just became easier to post on @bheron. > www.bufferapp.com may be useful for this. I use a free account there > myself. You can put a load of stuff in, every day, and schedule when > it gets posted. > Ah, cool, I will check it out. > -- > Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com > Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven > UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) > 702-829-053 > > -- Gregory Casamento GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron https://gf.me/u/x8m3sx - My GNUstep GoFundMe https://teespring.com/stores/gnustep - Store
Re: People think we are for nostalgics or dead.
So GNUstep makes it pretty clear "The framework closely follows Apple's Cocoa APIs and is portable to a variety of platforms and architectures." But what I would love—more than trying to play "catch-up" is to also sell people on the idea of Cocoa. "Switch from Apple" is a feature—not the reason to exist. Like—why should you consider Cocoa when making an app? What is it that makes the framework great? Apple seems to longer care about Cocoa. At some point, Cocoa may even cease to exist. (e.g Swift / SwiftUI) I think there is a case to be made for Cocoa—and that GNUstep could lead the charge in making people fall in love with Cocoa again. What do I love most about Cocoa? You can actually read your code 6 months laters. The parameters are labeled appropriately—and many `selectors` are English phrases. Concepts are more important than saving a character here and there. I would go as far as to say that Cocoa is the most readable API of all. So...what do you love about Cocoa? Personally, I would love a section on the front page that makes it clear to Cnew devs (many of whom never have used Objectice-C or Cocoa) that "Hey, Cocoa is amazing. Try it. You'll want to use it forever." And we could make a separate page just rattling off the benefits. The framework needs and can be sold on its merits. Apple be dammed. Ideas - It is a faster building GUI toolset relative to C++ - It is easier to read - You can drop down to C if needed - You can stay in memory-safe Smalltalk as desired - Any more?? PS — So...what do you love about Cocoa? On Wed, Dec 22, 2021, at 7:52 AM, Gregory Casamento wrote: > Liam, > > On Wed, Dec 22, 2021 at 6:43 AM Liam Proven wrote: >> On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 at 12:21, Gregory Casamento >> wrote: >> > >> > I have updated the website recently to show the themes. >> > >> > I am also posting, pretty much daily, about progress with GNUstep on >> > twitter. The best we can do is to try to put ourselves out there the way >> > we really are. Looking at GNUstep's stats on github tells the story that >> > we are not dead. >> > >> > Also, the discussion on hackernews showed that a lot of people are turning >> > around their opinions. We will not change the general impression of the >> > project in a day (or even a month or a year) but if we persist in making >> > it known that we are not a bunch of Luddites, then people will, >> > eventually, pick up on that. >> > >> > We must strive to change people's opinions. >> >> What is the best way to suggest text changes, new content, new links >> etc. for the website? >> > > Right now the website is still hosted on CVS on savannah.org... (I know)... I > am going to change this, but at the moment I need some assistance since there > are some things in the hosting (at gandi.net) which complicate moving the > site. More on that in another email. > > A strong argument for moving the site is that it is currently hosted on a > very old machine. > > There is a duplicate of the site at > g...@github.com:gnustep/gnustep-github-io.git (https://gnustep.github.io). > So, for now the best thing to do is to make suggestions here. Once I get it > moved, you can submit PRs. > >> Greg, since I note you now have your own Twitter account – @bheron >> (and may I ask why that? Just curious) – then I suggest you, or the >> community, or something, take your name off @gnustep and try to post >> something on there every day. > > That's a good idea. Originally that was my intention, but it just became > easier to post on @bheron. > >> www.bufferapp.com may be useful for this. I use a free account there >> myself. You can put a load of stuff in, every day, and schedule when >> it gets posted. > > Ah, cool, I will check it out. > >> -- >> Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven >> Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com >> Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven >> UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) >> 702-829-053 >> > > > -- > Gregory Casamento > GNUstep Lead Developer / OLC, Principal Consultant > http://www.gnustep.org - http://heronsperch.blogspot.com > https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?u=352392 - Become a Patron > https://gf.me/u/x8m3sx - My GNUstep GoFundMe > https://teespring.com/stores/gnustep - Store
Re: People think we are for nostalgics or dead.
> Am 23.12.2021 um 14:44 schrieb Gustavo Tavares : > > What do I love most about Cocoa? [note: here I read "Cocoa" more precisely as "Objective-C + Base/GUI-Frameworks". There was a JAVA binding for Apple Cocoa long time ago which I did not love equally well.] > You can actually read your code 6 months laters. Not only that. You can easily read code written by someone else 60 or even more months later. I randomly picked some 5 years old code from github: https://github.com/nicklockwood/iCarousel/blob/master/iCarousel/iCarousel.m > The parameters are labeled appropriately—and many `selectors` are English > phrases. exactly. > Concepts are more important than saving a character here and there. I agree that I don't like the abbreviationism of some other languages which has the wrong focus of saving characters during typing... > I would go as far as to say that Cocoa is the most readable API of all. And if you avoid the . notation for calling methods it is even more readable. Brad Cox: everything in [ ] is a method call - except for C arrays. If you avoid . method calls even the opposite holds true. In my experience the savings by @synthesisze for building getters/setters automatically saves only some minutes during coding. Where coding is just a small fraction of total project time. Most is debugging and refactoring code. Then it is important that the code is readable without deciphering symbolic operators. > > So...what do you love about Cocoa? See above :) BR, Nikolaus
Re: People think we are for nostalgics or dead.
It’s funny. I originally got into GNUStep because I’m a history buff and the NeXT era of Steve Job’s career fascinates me. I was and still am fascinated by how modern it is, despite most of the concepts dating back to like 1990. I expected GNUStep to be a window into the early days of software development. What I found is that it’s just as vital and usable as ever and that I just straight up prefer it to other—much newer—frameworks. It’s just awesome. The OOP approach in ObjC is just right. It doesn’t bludgeon your over the head like Java or C#. And if there’s some additional functionality you need, you can go grab any C library and just use it. I’m not sure what this concept is called, but I love how e.g. NSTableViewDataSource works. The API just asks you, “what does the cell at col X and row Y look like?” So much better than other implementations. I was writing an Android app in Java several years ago and I was so appalled by their list view that I wrote a Cocoa-inspired list data source class. Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 23, 2021, at 8:12 AM, H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote: > > > >> Am 23.12.2021 um 14:44 schrieb Gustavo Tavares : >> >> What do I love most about Cocoa? > > [note: here I read "Cocoa" more precisely as "Objective-C + > Base/GUI-Frameworks". There was a JAVA binding for Apple Cocoa long time ago > which I did not love equally well.] > >> You can actually read your code 6 months laters. > > Not only that. You can easily read code written by someone else 60 or even > more months later. > > I randomly picked some 5 years old code from github: > https://github.com/nicklockwood/iCarousel/blob/master/iCarousel/iCarousel.m > >> The parameters are labeled appropriately—and many `selectors` are English >> phrases. > > exactly. > >> Concepts are more important than saving a character here and there. > > I agree that I don't like the abbreviationism of some other languages which > has the wrong focus of saving characters during typing... > >> I would go as far as to say that Cocoa is the most readable API of all. > > And if you avoid the . notation for calling methods it is even more readable. > Brad Cox: everything in [ ] is a method call - except for C arrays. If you > avoid . method calls even the opposite holds true. > > In my experience the savings by @synthesisze for building getters/setters > automatically saves only some minutes during coding. Where coding is just a > small fraction of total project time. Most is debugging and refactoring code. > Then it is important that the code is readable without deciphering symbolic > operators. > >> >> So...what do you love about Cocoa? > > > See above :) > > BR, > Nikolaus
Re: People think we are for nostalgics or dead.
Hi, lars.sonchocky-helld...@hamburg.de wrote: > Hi there, > > > obviously we have a problem with our representation to the world. People > think we are for nostalgics or dead. I know, we had this discussion many > times before (lengthy at times), but the situation doesn’t seem to be > resolved. IIRC after the last discussion about our web presence the only > „measure“ that was taken was to add an screenshot „carousel“ to the front > page … not enough IMHO … You are putting absolutely too much emphasis on the website - work on which is also actively continuing, including having rescued tutorials the other day. In the holidays I have at plan to fix some wiki interaction, a new lockdown is in the air anyway! Signs of life on a website are given by their project page, like we have on github, by release news and by the wiki... with most other projects I interact with I don't even care about the web page, I use it only as a pointer to get to the pointer to wiki, repositories and bugs. "Liveness" is given also by things like news, discussions.. which lately are really boring, they happen only on the mailing list. The most live thread are about these things or rants against FSF and license... how interesting is that? I can even understand Ivan's decision to unsubscribe from the lists and just silently continue working on code and bugs. > In the reactions to this post there another misconceptions like: > > https://www-heise-de.translate.goog/forum/heise-online/Kommentare/Vor-25-Jahren-Apple-kauft-Next-mitsamt-Steve-Jobs/Re-GNUStep/posting-40187338/show/?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de > > quote: "Nice, really! Unfortunately a little lifeless since 2018, or am I > wrong?“ And? well he is wrong... but what can you do, fix people's head? Do you take somebody "Dulli damper" > this impression was gained when viewing our website! You don't have the information on how this impression was gained. The webpage has no dates, deliberately. Also, we should use less energy about fixing peoples head.. this "Dull dumper". I mean 10 second verifications by that person would have made a better opinion. 1) GitHub is referenced one-click away from the homepage and there you can even have activity graphs for the subprojects and last commit date, refusing this 2) just looking at gnustep in google gives as a second link wikipedia, which says our last core release is 7 months old 3) a one-click away from the homepage there is software index, which shows entries from 2019 to 2021 just upfront (although some ar missing compared to 4) ) 4) still just click from the homepage in the wiki homepage there are several entries for 2020 and 2021. Just for 2021 we can count, beyond core releases, Gorm PDFKit, a "salvaged" HelpViewer and two theme releases! > Think about it. Sure. Not perfect.. just by doing this quick check I found dead links, inconsistent information...but a "fact check" that anybody can do. It may touch you if we are considered "dead".. but hell, you can't fix everybody's mind. There are people believing Australia does not exist, that the earth is flat and that COVID is just a flu... use your energies by building. > kind regards and happy holidays, Have a nice Christmas. Frohe Weihnachten! Riccardo
