Re: Apply for membership and meet us at FOSDEM

[Daniel Pocock]

On 01/02/18 20:14, Max Mehl wrote:
> Disclaimer: I am an FSFE employee.
>
> # Daniel Pocock [2018-02-01 18:16 +0100]:
>> On 01/02/18 17:16, Florian Snow wrote:
>>> Werner Koch  writes:
 I personally see a lot of problems that employees of the FSFE are also
 members _and_ that they make up a large part of the membership.
>>> Would you care to elaborate a little bit on this point?  I am curious
>>> about it.
>>
>> It is quite simple to explain:
>>
>> - the funds from fellowship/supporters pay the salaries and other major
>> expenses (over 50% of the budget comes from fellowship/supporter
>> donations)
>
> Ok, so people working and caring for the FSFE have no right to
> contribute to the organisation's mid- and long-term strategy? Do you
> want to keep out input from people working day-to-day for the FSFE? Do
> you see a threat in them being members?
>

I never said that.  Staff do have a role but it has to be balanced with
the financial supporters and volunteers, that is all.  I'm not calling
for a coup or something like that.

> Please keep in mind that there's no automatism for employees to become
> GA members. They have to apply and convince the GA of their motivation
> just like any other person.
>
>> - but the fellowship/supporters only have 2 votes in the GA (and none
>> after the change), although some GA members are also
>> fellowship/supporter members too
>
> The current system has many more flaws, for example that the Fellowship
> representatives don't represent the non-paying volunteers, and that the

I completely agree with finding a way to give volunteers more
representation at the highest levels of decision making in FSFE.

> voter turnout often is below 20%. That's why we discuss better solutions
> to grant membership to interested people but this process needs time. So
> as many others wrote here: no need to rush things. If procedures for
> becoming a member change (this is still not decided), they will be more
> open and transparent.
>
> Best,
> Max
>

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Re: Apply for membership and meet us at FOSDEM

[Max Mehl]

Disclaimer: I am an FSFE employee.

# Daniel Pocock [2018-02-01 18:16 +0100]:

On 01/02/18 17:16, Florian Snow wrote:

Werner Koch  writes:

I personally see a lot of problems that employees of the FSFE are also
members _and_ that they make up a large part of the membership.

Would you care to elaborate a little bit on this point?  I am curious
about it.


It is quite simple to explain:

- the funds from fellowship/supporters pay the salaries and other major
expenses (over 50% of the budget comes from fellowship/supporter donations)


Ok, so people working and caring for the FSFE have no right to
contribute to the organisation's mid- and long-term strategy? Do you
want to keep out input from people working day-to-day for the FSFE? Do
you see a threat in them being members?

Please keep in mind that there's no automatism for employees to become
GA members. They have to apply and convince the GA of their motivation
just like any other person.


- but the fellowship/supporters only have 2 votes in the GA (and none
after the change), although some GA members are also
fellowship/supporter members too


The current system has many more flaws, for example that the Fellowship
representatives don't represent the non-paying volunteers, and that the
voter turnout often is below 20%. That's why we discuss better solutions
to grant membership to interested people but this process needs time. So
as many others wrote here: no need to rush things. If procedures for
becoming a member change (this is still not decided), they will be more
open and transparent.

Best,
Max

--
Max Mehl - Program Manager - Free Software Foundation Europe
Contact and further information: https://fsfe.org/about/mehl
Support advocacy for Free Software:  https://fsfe.org/donate
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Re: Apply for membership and meet us at FOSDEM

[Daniel Pocock]

On 01/02/18 17:16, Florian Snow wrote:
> Hi Werner,
>
>
> Werner Koch  writes:
>> I personally see a lot of problems that employees of the FSFE are also
>> members _and_ that they make up a large part of the membership.
> Would you care to elaborate a little bit on this point?  I am curious
> about it.


It is quite simple to explain:

- the funds from fellowship/supporters pay the salaries and other major
expenses (over 50% of the budget comes from fellowship/supporter donations)

- but the fellowship/supporters only have 2 votes in the GA (and none
after the change), although some GA members are also
fellowship/supporter members too


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Re: forums, mailing lists and other tools

[Florian Snow]

Hi,


hellekin  writes:
> Hmmm, no there is not, only a broken page.

Good point and a good reminder for me to check one last time before I
send links around.  :-)

Happy hacking!
Florian
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Re: Apply for membership and meet us at FOSDEM

[Florian Snow]

Hi Werner,


Werner Koch  writes:
> I personally see a lot of problems that employees of the FSFE are also
> members _and_ that they make up a large part of the membership.

Would you care to elaborate a little bit on this point?  I am curious
about it.

Happy hacking!
Florian
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Re: breaking bad habits like Doodle and Facebook with plugins?

[Florian Snow]

Hi Mat,


Mat Witts  writes:
>> I also cannot comprehend it
> It' easy - one example is some groups object to liberal notions of
> education on the pretext of religious belief.

I used comprehend here differently.  I would argue people have the right
to give up their freedoms, but I don't know why they would from a
theoretical perspective.  From a practical perspective, I understand
that people will give reasons, but I cannot help but feel that those
reasons are misguided.


>> a decision for non-free software can be reversed at any point
> Yes, but if software is 'copyleft', then bringing it back into
> proprietary control is complex.

I don't understand how the two are related.  I was talking about how
someone migh decide for themselves that they want to use proprietary
software X, but they can decide differently at any later point.  I was
not talking about turning Free Software into proprietary software.  I
would not want anyone to do that.


> Proprietary software has to happen, because that's the way international
> copyright law is configured,

Do you mean "has to happen" in the sense of "it is inevitable" or do you
mean it ought to happen?


> I don't like FB, but I do like the rights people have to connect to
> that platform, as misguided as I am sure we agree it is?

I agree, people have and should have the right to connect to services we
deem problematic.  But the original suggestion was not to prevent people
from connecting in any case.  The idea was to write a plugin that people
can voluntarily install and then it would warn them of potentially
harmful practices.  So someone who wants to support the Free Software
movement, but does not know the details yet could use such a plugin to
become more aware of some issues and avoid sending links that other
people might object to.

Happy hacking!
Florian
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our future relationship with FSFE (public discussion)

[Daniel Pocock]

(This was sent to each member of the FSFE community, I'm re-posting it
here for those who would like to discuss it publicly or those who don't
receive it due to filtering problems.  Apologies to those who receive it
twice)


Dear FSFE Community,

I'm writing to you today as one of your elected fellowship
representatives rather than to convey my own views, which you may have
already encountered in my blog[1] or mailing list discussions.

The recent meeting of the General Assembly (GA) decided that the annual
elections will be abolished but this change has not yet been ratified in
the constitution.

Personally, I support an overhaul of FSFE's democratic processes and the
bulk of the reasons for this change are quite valid.  One of the reasons
proposed for the change, the suggestion that the election was a
popularity contest, is an argument I don't agree with: the same argument
could be used to abolish elections anywhere.

One point that came up in discussions about the elections is that people
don't need to wait for the elections to be considered for GA membership.
 Matthias Kirschner, our president, has emphasized this to me personally
as well, he looks at each new request with an open mind and forwards it
to all of the GA for discussion.  According to our constitution[2],
anybody can write to the president at any time and request to join the
GA.  In practice, the president and the existing GA members will
probably need to have seen some of your activities in one of the FSFE
teams or local groups before accepting you as a member.  I want to
encourage people to become familiar with the GA membership process[3]
and discuss it within their teams and local groups and think about
whether you or anybody you know may be a good candidate.

According to the minutes[4] of the last GA meeting, several new members
were already accepted this way in the last year.  It is particularly
important for the organization to increase diversity in the GA at this time.

The response rate for the last fellowship election was lower than in
previous years and there is also concern that emails don't reach
everybody thanks to spam filters or the Google Promotions tab (if you
use gmail).  If you had problems receiving emails about the last
election, please consider sharing that feedback on the discussion list.

Understanding where the organization will go beyond the extinction of
the fellowship representative is critical.  The Identity review process,
championed by Jonas Oberg and Kristi Progri, is actively looking at
these questions.  Please contact Kristi[5] if you wish to participate
and look out for updates about this process in emails and Planet[6]
FSFE.  Kristi will be at FOSDEM[7] this weekend if you want to speak to
her personally.

I'll be at FOSDEM this weekend and would welcome the opportunity to meet
with you personally.  I will be visiting many different parts of FOSDEM
at different times, including the FSFE booth, the Debian booth, the
real-time lounge (K-building) and the Real-Time Communications (RTC)
dev-room[8] on Sunday, where I'm giving a talk.  Many other members of
the FSFE community will also be present, if you don't know where to
start, simply come to the FSFE booth.  The next European event I visit
after FOSDEM will potentially be OSCAL[9] in Tirana, it is in May and I
would highly recommend this event for anybody who doesn't regularly
travel to events outside their own region.

Changing the world begins with the change we make ourselves.  If you
only do one thing for free software this year and you are not sure what
it is going to be, then I would recommend this: visit an event that you
never visited before, in a city or country you never visited before.  It
doesn't necessarily have to be a free software or IT event.  In 2017 I
attended OSCAL[9] in Tirana and the Digital-Born Media Carnival[9] in
Kotor for the first time.  You can ask FSFE to send you some free
stickers and posters (online request[11] with optional donation) to give
to the new friends you meet on your travels.  Change starts with each of
us doing something new or different and I hope our paths may cross in
one of these places.

Regards,

Daniel


1. https://danielpocock.com
2. https://fsfe.org/about/legal/legal.en.html
3. https://wiki.fsfe.org/Teams/GA
4. https://fsfe.org/about/legal/minutes/minutes-2017-10-15.en.pdf
5. https://kristiprogri.com/2017/09/20/fsfe-identity-process/
6. http://planet.fsfe.org/
7. https://fosdem.org/
8. https://fosdem.org/2018/schedule/track/real_time_communications/
9. https://oscal.openlabs.cc
10.
http://www.shareconference.net/en/defense/digital-born-adventures-kotor-and-lessons-carnival
11. https://fsfe.org/promo

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Re: forums, mailing lists and other tools

[hellekin]

On Thu, Feb 01, 2018 at 07:26:42AM +0100, Florian Snow wrote:
> 
> This may have been mentioned before, but there is a Discourse instance
> at community.fsfe.org.
>

Hmmm, no there is not, only a broken page. Anyway, if it existed when
I proposed my services last year, nobody mentioned it. If it is more
recent I find it surprising and upsetting that I have to learn it from
the general discussion list. FSFE's community outreach has been, in my
experience, suboptimal -- a cool-down euphemism for catastrophic.

Regards,

==
hk

-- 
P.S.: Awakening Territories to Life ==  ==
  GPG ID == 4CE6 4F27 9931 0403 A903  E43F 0B14 96B7 E336 03EB ==
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Apply for membership and meet us at FOSDEM (was: Apply for membership - or meet us at FOSDEM :-)

[Werner Koch]

On Thu,  1 Feb 2018 00:25, reinh...@fsfe.org said:

> Daniel has already supplied a pointer to the web page giving some
> background information about the GA, its role in FSFE, and the

To make thinks a bit more clear.  Many members of the FSFE e.V., which
happens to be plain standard German Eingetragener Verein (e.V.), use the
term GA to refer to the members of that Verein.  The term GA was used as
an abbreviation for General Assembly / General Meeting /
Mitgliederversammlung but it is nothing else than the members of the
Verein, that is the Verein itself.

This might have been introduced along with the fellowship to paper a bit
over the fact that the fellows had no legal rights within the Verein -
in contrast to the members, now called the GA.  Later the constitution
was changed to allow an external group (the fellowship) to elect up to
two temporary members of the Verein.  Due to various reasons candidates
for this "fellowship seats" were not in good supply and thus the idea is
now to drop this failed concept of improved participation.

Anyway, the Vorsitzende (uncommonly termed "president") of the FSFE
e.V. has had always the right to accept new membership applications
which will only need to be confirmed at the next general meeting (of the
members).  For the first 15 years this was handled very strict and
basically impossible for a wider audience to be accepted as a member.
This seemed to have changed over the last 2 or 3 years when employees
and very active people were granted membership quickly.  

I personally see a lot of problems that employees of the FSFE are also
members _and_ that they make up a large part of the membership.  Thus I
support the call for new members (as I always did in internal
discussions over the last 17 years) but for organization issues I would
also ask not to rush this.  Sending an applications to the president is
of course fine but please don't get upset if it takes some time to setup
the FSFE for a larger base of members.


Shalom-Salam,

   Werner (founding member, not paid, and mostly inactive these days)

-- 
Die Gedanken sind frei.  Ausnahmen regelt ein Bundesgesetz.


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