Re: Choosing Between Ikiwiki and Jekyll For http://www.linux.org.il/ - The Verdict

[Shlomi Fish]

Hi Amit,

On Fri, 11 Jan 2013 12:13:01 +0200
Amit Aronovitch  wrote:

> Trying to respond inline - let's hope gmail won't mess this up...

Seems quite OK.

> 
> 
> On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 12:11 AM, Shlomi Fish wrote:
> >
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> On Thu, 27 Dec 2012 01:11:35 +0200
> >> Shlomi Fish  wrote:
> >>
> >> > Hi all,
> >> >
> >> > [ I am going to write this message in English because it is easier for
> >> me to
> >> > express myself in such Technical matters in it. Feel free to reply in
> >> Hebrew.
> >> > ]
> >> >
> >> > Well, I've taken a look at both Ikiwiki and Jekyll for two projects:
> >> >
> >> > 1. Ikiwiki for the Freenode's ##programming channel FAQ:
> >> >
> >> > *
> >> http://code.wikia.com/wiki/User:Shlomif/Freenode_programming_channel_FAQ
> >> > (present location - requires loggging in to get rid of the intrusive
> >> ads,
> >> > which is why we want to switch to something else).
> >> >
> >> > * https://github.com/shlomif/Freenode-programming-channel-FAQ - new
> >> source
> >> >
> >> > 2. Jekyll for http://vim.begin-site.org/ - the Vim Beginner's Site
> >> (some links
> >> > are broken and the content is incomplete but feel free to link to the
> >> existing
> >> > resources).
> >> >
> >> > ---
> >> >
> >> > Installing Ikiwiki involved chasing some CPAN dependencies, which was
> >> not as
> >> > straightforward because I'm a Mageia Linux packager and am committed to
> >> > packaging them as Mageia .rpms, but it was doable based on the
> >> perl-Ikiwiki
> >> > rpm from Fedora. (Should be easier if your distribution already
> >> packaged it
> >> > or if you just use cpan/cpanm/CPANPLUS).
> >> >
> >> > Installing Jekyll was more straightforward because I defaulted to use
> >> "sudo
> >> > gem install jekyll" (and then some missing dependencies).
> >> >
> >> > Now the problem I had with Ikiwiki proved to be an errorprone process
> >> for me.
> >> > I eventually was able to get it working, but it took a while. Jekyll on
> >> the
> >> > other hand just worked and is also pretty fast (at least here on my
> >> Core i3
> >> > machine). Jekyll is also cool, simple and straightforward and has better
> >> > support for complex templates.
> >> >
> >> > While the new ##programming FAQ will be kept in Ikiwiki for now, I
> >> think I'll
> >> > go with Jekyll for www.linux.org.il. The main advantage Ikiwiki has
> >> over
> >> > Jekyll is a server-side web interface, so if it's a deal breaker for
> >> anyone,
> >> > please shout.
> >> >
> >> > So I think I’ll start converting http://www.linux.org.il/ to Jekyll
> >> barring
> >> > any objections. I'm CCing Amichai here, because I would like to tutor
> >> him in
> >> > the new CMS (Jekyll) instead of the ad-hoc existing one.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Unfortunately, as it turns out, I ran into some problems with Jekyll, as
> >> this
> >> conversation on #jekyll on Freenode proves (I am rindolf):
> >>
> >> [QUOTE]
> >>  Hi all.
> >>  I'd like to share some frustration I have with using Jekyll. I
> >> previously used http://web-cpan.shlomifish.org/latemp/ , which is my own
> >> creation based on Website Meta Language and other technologies, and I
> >> found
> >> some things absent in Jekyll like a navigation menu or a breadcrumbs trail
> >> using it. Now, when googling for doing that in Jekyll, I usually ran into
> >> blogs
> >> posts or Stackoverflow threads and not actual plugins.
> >>  And Jekyll seems kinda opaque to me (though admittedly I didn't
> >> try
> >> to read its code).
> >>  Does anyone feel the same way too?
> >>  well, having only used jekyll for a while, certain aspects are a
> >> bit
> >> unclear and I feel there is a bit too much marketing hype around it, but
> >> it
> >> works fine, and the information is eventually easy enough to find
> >>  for example I assumed from the information I found about Jekyll
> >> before
> >> starting on it, that it would by default support LESS compiling, JS, CSS
> >> and
> >> HTML minifying, etc. .. ended up having to set up plugins and code a bit
> >> myself
> >> to get all that working .. having never coded a single line of ruby
> >> before, it
> >> was a bit painful
> >>  but if they end up actually putting more of that kind
> >> of stuff in the core, or make proper plugins for all that and link to them
> >> easily, it will be a lot better
> >>  lietu: I see.
> >>  .. oh, and the list of dependencies for my whole package is now
> >> ridiculously large, to build my website with jekyll, using google closure
> >> compiler, jekyll-asset-pipeline, lessc from node (the easiest dependency
> >> really), jekyll-press nad jekyll-minimagic requires me to install half of
> >> the
> >> packages available in the repositories to get it running
> >>  lietu: I see.
> >> [/QUOTE]
> >>
> >>
> I'll risk adding more confusion to the current situation and throw in
> another option: Sphinx  http://sphinx-doc.org/index.html
> 
> It is a static generator, stable and quite popular (in the Python
> community, at least, it is probably t

Re: Choosing Between Ikiwiki and Jekyll For http://www.linux.org.il/ - The Verdict

[Amit Aronovitch]

Trying to respond inline - let's hope gmail won't mess this up...


On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 12:11 AM, Shlomi Fish wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> On Thu, 27 Dec 2012 01:11:35 +0200
>> Shlomi Fish  wrote:
>>
>> > Hi all,
>> >
>> > [ I am going to write this message in English because it is easier for
>> me to
>> > express myself in such Technical matters in it. Feel free to reply in
>> Hebrew.
>> > ]
>> >
>> > Well, I've taken a look at both Ikiwiki and Jekyll for two projects:
>> >
>> > 1. Ikiwiki for the Freenode's ##programming channel FAQ:
>> >
>> > *
>> http://code.wikia.com/wiki/User:Shlomif/Freenode_programming_channel_FAQ
>> > (present location - requires loggging in to get rid of the intrusive
>> ads,
>> > which is why we want to switch to something else).
>> >
>> > * https://github.com/shlomif/Freenode-programming-channel-FAQ - new
>> source
>> >
>> > 2. Jekyll for http://vim.begin-site.org/ - the Vim Beginner's Site
>> (some links
>> > are broken and the content is incomplete but feel free to link to the
>> existing
>> > resources).
>> >
>> > ---
>> >
>> > Installing Ikiwiki involved chasing some CPAN dependencies, which was
>> not as
>> > straightforward because I'm a Mageia Linux packager and am committed to
>> > packaging them as Mageia .rpms, but it was doable based on the
>> perl-Ikiwiki
>> > rpm from Fedora. (Should be easier if your distribution already
>> packaged it
>> > or if you just use cpan/cpanm/CPANPLUS).
>> >
>> > Installing Jekyll was more straightforward because I defaulted to use
>> "sudo
>> > gem install jekyll" (and then some missing dependencies).
>> >
>> > Now the problem I had with Ikiwiki proved to be an errorprone process
>> for me.
>> > I eventually was able to get it working, but it took a while. Jekyll on
>> the
>> > other hand just worked and is also pretty fast (at least here on my
>> Core i3
>> > machine). Jekyll is also cool, simple and straightforward and has better
>> > support for complex templates.
>> >
>> > While the new ##programming FAQ will be kept in Ikiwiki for now, I
>> think I'll
>> > go with Jekyll for www.linux.org.il. The main advantage Ikiwiki has
>> over
>> > Jekyll is a server-side web interface, so if it's a deal breaker for
>> anyone,
>> > please shout.
>> >
>> > So I think I’ll start converting http://www.linux.org.il/ to Jekyll
>> barring
>> > any objections. I'm CCing Amichai here, because I would like to tutor
>> him in
>> > the new CMS (Jekyll) instead of the ad-hoc existing one.
>> >
>>
>> Unfortunately, as it turns out, I ran into some problems with Jekyll, as
>> this
>> conversation on #jekyll on Freenode proves (I am rindolf):
>>
>> [QUOTE]
>>  Hi all.
>>  I'd like to share some frustration I have with using Jekyll. I
>> previously used http://web-cpan.shlomifish.org/latemp/ , which is my own
>> creation based on Website Meta Language and other technologies, and I
>> found
>> some things absent in Jekyll like a navigation menu or a breadcrumbs trail
>> using it. Now, when googling for doing that in Jekyll, I usually ran into
>> blogs
>> posts or Stackoverflow threads and not actual plugins.
>>  And Jekyll seems kinda opaque to me (though admittedly I didn't
>> try
>> to read its code).
>>  Does anyone feel the same way too?
>>  well, having only used jekyll for a while, certain aspects are a
>> bit
>> unclear and I feel there is a bit too much marketing hype around it, but
>> it
>> works fine, and the information is eventually easy enough to find
>>  for example I assumed from the information I found about Jekyll
>> before
>> starting on it, that it would by default support LESS compiling, JS, CSS
>> and
>> HTML minifying, etc. .. ended up having to set up plugins and code a bit
>> myself
>> to get all that working .. having never coded a single line of ruby
>> before, it
>> was a bit painful
>>  but if they end up actually putting more of that kind
>> of stuff in the core, or make proper plugins for all that and link to them
>> easily, it will be a lot better
>>  lietu: I see.
>>  .. oh, and the list of dependencies for my whole package is now
>> ridiculously large, to build my website with jekyll, using google closure
>> compiler, jekyll-asset-pipeline, lessc from node (the easiest dependency
>> really), jekyll-press nad jekyll-minimagic requires me to install half of
>> the
>> packages available in the repositories to get it running
>>  lietu: I see.
>> [/QUOTE]
>>
>>
I'll risk adding more confusion to the current situation and throw in
another option: Sphinx  http://sphinx-doc.org/index.html

It is a static generator, stable and quite popular (in the Python
community, at least, it is probably the leading doc tool), supports both
breadcrumb trails and navigation menus (which you found lacking in Jekyll).
Uses reStructuredText as markdown syntax (which happens to be my favorite).
Downside is that is geared towards generating documentation (though I see
no reason why using it for simple content sites wouldn't work).
Installation wen

Re: Choosing Between Ikiwiki and Jekyll For http://www.linux.org.il/ - The Verdict

[Meir Kriheli]

Hi,

I wrote a multilingual static website generator for my
website(pages + blog):
https://github.com/MeirKriheli/statirator

Might wanna give it a try, didn't get a chance to document it good enough
yet, this Open Knesset thingy is keeping me quite busy.

Cheers.


On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 12:11 AM, Shlomi Fish wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> On Thu, 27 Dec 2012 01:11:35 +0200
> Shlomi Fish  wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > [ I am going to write this message in English because it is easier for
> me to
> > express myself in such Technical matters in it. Feel free to reply in
> Hebrew.
> > ]
> >
> > Well, I've taken a look at both Ikiwiki and Jekyll for two projects:
> >
> > 1. Ikiwiki for the Freenode's ##programming channel FAQ:
> >
> > *
> http://code.wikia.com/wiki/User:Shlomif/Freenode_programming_channel_FAQ
> > (present location - requires loggging in to get rid of the intrusive ads,
> > which is why we want to switch to something else).
> >
> > * https://github.com/shlomif/Freenode-programming-channel-FAQ - new
> source
> >
> > 2. Jekyll for http://vim.begin-site.org/ - the Vim Beginner's Site
> (some links
> > are broken and the content is incomplete but feel free to link to the
> existing
> > resources).
> >
> > ---
> >
> > Installing Ikiwiki involved chasing some CPAN dependencies, which was
> not as
> > straightforward because I'm a Mageia Linux packager and am committed to
> > packaging them as Mageia .rpms, but it was doable based on the
> perl-Ikiwiki
> > rpm from Fedora. (Should be easier if your distribution already packaged
> it
> > or if you just use cpan/cpanm/CPANPLUS).
> >
> > Installing Jekyll was more straightforward because I defaulted to use
> "sudo
> > gem install jekyll" (and then some missing dependencies).
> >
> > Now the problem I had with Ikiwiki proved to be an errorprone process
> for me.
> > I eventually was able to get it working, but it took a while. Jekyll on
> the
> > other hand just worked and is also pretty fast (at least here on my Core
> i3
> > machine). Jekyll is also cool, simple and straightforward and has better
> > support for complex templates.
> >
> > While the new ##programming FAQ will be kept in Ikiwiki for now, I think
> I'll
> > go with Jekyll for www.linux.org.il. The main advantage Ikiwiki has over
> > Jekyll is a server-side web interface, so if it's a deal breaker for
> anyone,
> > please shout.
> >
> > So I think I’ll start converting http://www.linux.org.il/ to Jekyll
> barring
> > any objections. I'm CCing Amichai here, because I would like to tutor
> him in
> > the new CMS (Jekyll) instead of the ad-hoc existing one.
> >
>
> Unfortunately, as it turns out, I ran into some problems with Jekyll, as
> this
> conversation on #jekyll on Freenode proves (I am rindolf):
>
> [QUOTE]
>  Hi all.
>  I'd like to share some frustration I have with using Jekyll. I
> previously used http://web-cpan.shlomifish.org/latemp/ , which is my own
> creation based on Website Meta Language and other technologies, and I found
> some things absent in Jekyll like a navigation menu or a breadcrumbs trail
> using it. Now, when googling for doing that in Jekyll, I usually ran into
> blogs
> posts or Stackoverflow threads and not actual plugins.
>  And Jekyll seems kinda opaque to me (though admittedly I didn't
> try
> to read its code).
>  Does anyone feel the same way too?
>  well, having only used jekyll for a while, certain aspects are a
> bit
> unclear and I feel there is a bit too much marketing hype around it, but it
> works fine, and the information is eventually easy enough to find
>  for example I assumed from the information I found about Jekyll
> before
> starting on it, that it would by default support LESS compiling, JS, CSS
> and
> HTML minifying, etc. .. ended up having to set up plugins and code a bit
> myself
> to get all that working .. having never coded a single line of ruby
> before, it
> was a bit painful
>  but if they end up actually putting more of that kind
> of stuff in the core, or make proper plugins for all that and link to them
> easily, it will be a lot better
>  lietu: I see.
>  .. oh, and the list of dependencies for my whole package is now
> ridiculously large, to build my website with jekyll, using google closure
> compiler, jekyll-asset-pipeline, lessc from node (the easiest dependency
> really), jekyll-press nad jekyll-minimagic requires me to install half of
> the
> packages available in the repositories to get it running
>  lietu: I see.
> [/QUOTE]
>
> So it does not seem very encouraging, as part of the reason why I don't
> want
> to use Latemp ( http://web-cpan.shlomifish.org/latemp/ ) is due to its
> relatively large amount of dependencies . There's a list of other static
> website
> generators here:
> http://iwantmyname.com/blog/2011/02/list-static-website-generators.htmland it
> does not include my own (yet), but includes ttree which I have heard of
> before
> and ikiwiki, which I also covered here.
>
> Regards,
>

Re: Choosing Between Ikiwiki and Jekyll For http://www.linux.org.il/ - The Verdict

[Shlomi Fish]

Hi all,

On Thu, 27 Dec 2012 01:11:35 +0200
Shlomi Fish  wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> [ I am going to write this message in English because it is easier for me to
> express myself in such Technical matters in it. Feel free to reply in Hebrew.
> ]
> 
> Well, I've taken a look at both Ikiwiki and Jekyll for two projects:
> 
> 1. Ikiwiki for the Freenode's ##programming channel FAQ:
> 
> * http://code.wikia.com/wiki/User:Shlomif/Freenode_programming_channel_FAQ
> (present location - requires loggging in to get rid of the intrusive ads,
> which is why we want to switch to something else).
> 
> * https://github.com/shlomif/Freenode-programming-channel-FAQ - new source
> 
> 2. Jekyll for http://vim.begin-site.org/ - the Vim Beginner's Site (some links
> are broken and the content is incomplete but feel free to link to the existing
> resources).
> 
> ---
> 
> Installing Ikiwiki involved chasing some CPAN dependencies, which was not as
> straightforward because I'm a Mageia Linux packager and am committed to
> packaging them as Mageia .rpms, but it was doable based on the perl-Ikiwiki
> rpm from Fedora. (Should be easier if your distribution already packaged it
> or if you just use cpan/cpanm/CPANPLUS).
> 
> Installing Jekyll was more straightforward because I defaulted to use "sudo
> gem install jekyll" (and then some missing dependencies).
> 
> Now the problem I had with Ikiwiki proved to be an errorprone process for me.
> I eventually was able to get it working, but it took a while. Jekyll on the
> other hand just worked and is also pretty fast (at least here on my Core i3
> machine). Jekyll is also cool, simple and straightforward and has better
> support for complex templates.
> 
> While the new ##programming FAQ will be kept in Ikiwiki for now, I think I'll
> go with Jekyll for www.linux.org.il. The main advantage Ikiwiki has over
> Jekyll is a server-side web interface, so if it's a deal breaker for anyone,
> please shout.
> 
> So I think I’ll start converting http://www.linux.org.il/ to Jekyll barring
> any objections. I'm CCing Amichai here, because I would like to tutor him in
> the new CMS (Jekyll) instead of the ad-hoc existing one.
> 

Unfortunately, as it turns out, I ran into some problems with Jekyll, as this
conversation on #jekyll on Freenode proves (I am rindolf):

[QUOTE]
 Hi all.
 I'd like to share some frustration I have with using Jekyll. I
previously used http://web-cpan.shlomifish.org/latemp/ , which is my own
creation based on Website Meta Language and other technologies, and I found
some things absent in Jekyll like a navigation menu or a breadcrumbs trail
using it. Now, when googling for doing that in Jekyll, I usually ran into blogs
posts or Stackoverflow threads and not actual plugins.
 And Jekyll seems kinda opaque to me (though admittedly I didn't try
to read its code).
 Does anyone feel the same way too?
 well, having only used jekyll for a while, certain aspects are a bit
unclear and I feel there is a bit too much marketing hype around it, but it
works fine, and the information is eventually easy enough to find
 for example I assumed from the information I found about Jekyll before
starting on it, that it would by default support LESS compiling, JS, CSS and
HTML minifying, etc. .. ended up having to set up plugins and code a bit myself
to get all that working .. having never coded a single line of ruby before, it
was a bit painful
 but if they end up actually putting more of that kind
of stuff in the core, or make proper plugins for all that and link to them
easily, it will be a lot better
 lietu: I see.
 .. oh, and the list of dependencies for my whole package is now
ridiculously large, to build my website with jekyll, using google closure
compiler, jekyll-asset-pipeline, lessc from node (the easiest dependency
really), jekyll-press nad jekyll-minimagic requires me to install half of the
packages available in the repositories to get it running
 lietu: I see.
[/QUOTE]

So it does not seem very encouraging, as part of the reason why I don't want
to use Latemp ( http://web-cpan.shlomifish.org/latemp/ ) is due to its
relatively large amount of dependencies . There's a list of other static website
generators here:
http://iwantmyname.com/blog/2011/02/list-static-website-generators.html and it
does not include my own (yet), but includes ttree which I have heard of before
and ikiwiki, which I also covered here.

Regards,

Shlomi Fish

-- 
-
Shlomi Fish   http://www.shlomifish.org/
List of Portability Libraries - http://shlom.in/port-libs

XSLT is the number one cause of programmers’ suicides since Visual Basic 1.0.

Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .
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Re: Choosing Between Ikiwiki and Jekyll For http://www.linux.org.il/ - The Verdict

[Shlomi Fish]

Hi Tzafrir,

On Wed, 26 Dec 2012 23:27:01 +
Tzafrir Cohen  wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 01:11:35AM +0200, Shlomi Fish wrote:
> 
> > Installing Ikiwiki involved chasing some CPAN dependencies, which was not as
> > straightforward because I'm a Mageia Linux packager and am committed to
> > packaging them as Mageia .rpms, but it was doable based on the perl-Ikiwiki
> > rpm from Fedora. (Should be easier if your distribution already packaged it
> > or if you just use cpan/cpanm/CPANPLUS).
> 
> Isn't there an automated cpan2rpm package genrator?
> 

there is more than one:

http://perl-begin.org/topics/cpan/wrappers-for-distributions/

On Mageia I like to use cpan2pkg (porting its toolchain to
Debian/Ubuntu/MEPIS/Mint/etc. will be welcome). 

But it was still somewhat time consuming. Like I said if you just use cpan or
cpanm it should be quicker to run.

Regards,

Shlomi Fish

-- 
-
Shlomi Fish   http://www.shlomifish.org/
First stop for Perl beginners - http://perl-begin.org/

Satan condemned Hitler for a million years of writing XSLT.

Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .
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Re: Choosing Between Ikiwiki and Jekyll For http://www.linux.org.il/ - The Verdict

[Tzafrir Cohen]

On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 01:11:35AM +0200, Shlomi Fish wrote:

> Installing Ikiwiki involved chasing some CPAN dependencies, which was not as
> straightforward because I'm a Mageia Linux packager and am committed to
> packaging them as Mageia .rpms, but it was doable based on the perl-Ikiwiki 
> rpm
> from Fedora. (Should be easier if your distribution already packaged it or if
> you just use cpan/cpanm/CPANPLUS).

Isn't there an automated cpan2rpm package genrator?

-- 
Tzafrir Cohen | tzaf...@jabber.org | VIM is
http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's
tzaf...@cohens.org.il ||  best
tzaf...@debian.org|| friend
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