Re: Off Topic: The boycott law (was Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details)
1. I was discussing the idea, not the action. I do not live anywhere near an Israeli court, but that should not -and does not- prevent me from chewing the fat about it. I would not go to a large claim court let alone a small claims court, nor have I ever said I had intended to. You should learn to read better. 2. I have little understanding of the particulars of the given law. In the US it would fail the right to free speech in the constitution, and in Israel probably too. I doubt that in a free society a law can forbid people from associating or disassociating with a particular group or product. In other words, the legal system can't tell me what to boycott more than they can tell me what to support. And if it could, it would lead to brilliant literature similar to the writings of Kundera and others in the Soviet Union - satire, parody, etc. For example, if I am not able to call for a boycott of, say people who believe in (stick your particular group here), I can still write that we should all support this group because their maliciousness, corruption and stupidity would lead us all to a catharsis and is good for our moral development. 3. But on the particulars mentioned in the next part of the thread, a good lawyer or activist will find some member of the affected group who is willing to stand forward. Then proving damages is trivial. It can even be the trauma caused to guy by the boycott, which caused him untold amount of money in therapy. Or that he became depressed upon finding that RMS is a complete idiot, like the guys who find out that Santa is just a fat man in a cheap red suit. The issue is not only who is right, but who has deeper pockets. If you have a right to sue, you do it. The other side has to hire legal representation, and will soon realize that actions have financial consequences. And while he/she is spending his energy defending his action in court, he does not have time to do his original act. Again, I am talking about principle, not about suing RMS for being a moron, associating with morons, or any of a number of things he is or does. Have fun, y'all! On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 10:30 PM, Ram-on Agmon wrote: > אני חושב שזה רעיון נהדר שתתבע את סטולמן. לך על זה. נראה אותך. > > לדעתי, אתה סתם מתנפח. לבית משפט לתביעות קטנות אין סיכוי שתזיז את עצמך. > > רם און > > > ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: Off Topic: The boycott law (was Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details)
On 07/18/2011 11:06 PM, Shai Berger wrote: > On Sunday 17 July 2011, Steve G. wrote: >> By the way, is it not now illegal to support such a ban? > No. It is a "civil wrongdoing": You can be sued for doing it, but not > prosecuted. IANAL This is one of the most misunderstood laws in recent times. This is not to say it is a good law. It isn't, and one of the main reasons it isn't is because people think it outlaws things it, in actuality, doesn't. So in the interest of enhancing the Israeli democracy, here is my take: He cannot be sued, either. First, it is not the act of boycotting that is prohibited, but the act of promoting others to boycott. This, alone, clears RMS. Also, you need to be the boycotted party. You need to have been included in the boycott not for anything you did, but merely for being a part of Israel in some way. Last, unless malice is proven, you will need to have been financially hurt by the boycott. "Malice" is not defined by the law, but there is a principle that a law may not be interpreted in such a way that a word or a sentence in it becomes without meaning. Since the law requires calling for boycott, for reasons other than the party's actions, and that the boycott call should have a reasonable chance of being effective, then those criteria may not be the ones that determine malice. Malice has to be something beyond that. In other words, this law is hardly ever applicable, to anyone, and RMS is no exception. > > (Just setting the record straight). That. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd. http://www.lingnu.com ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: Off Topic: The boycott law (was Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details)
אני חושב שזה רעיון נהדר שתתבע את סטולמן. לך על זה. נראה אותך. לדעתי, אתה סתם מתנפח. לבית משפט לתביעות קטנות אין סיכוי שתזיז את עצמך. רם און On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 2:08 AM, Steve G. wrote: > Not that I was serious, but: > > 1. What is the free software movement going to do, charge me to use the > software? Ban me from using it? Stop making free software? I do not think > that Stallman would like that outcome, either. > > 2. If he is in Israel he is bound by Israeli law. He may even have to come > here to defend himself in court. > > 3. Again, I was making fun, but my guess is that if someone did sue > Stallman, it would point out his stupidity to the community, and would > probably muzzle him up. The FOSS community, just like most communities in > the world, is probably split up evenly about most subjects of politics. > Anyone with half a brain in leadership position would be wise to avoid such > divisive issues. Microsoft, on the other hand, would probably love to see it > getting some PR. > > Anyone for suing RMS? > > Z. > > > > On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 3:01 PM, Nadav Har'El wrote: > >> On Mon, Jul 18, 2011, Steve G. wrote about "Re: Off Topic: The boycott law >> (was Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details)": >> > Well, here is your recourse - sue their asses... Finally, open source >> will >> > make news. >> >> Yes, go ahead and sue Stallman - this will make you very popular in the >> world of free software. And very rich, because after all Stallman is a >> billionaire with deep pockets, right? And of course, he's an Israeli so >> he is bound by that ridiculous new Israeli law, right? >> >> Hmmm... I think you need to come up with a better plan :-) >> >> -- >> Nadav Har'El| Monday, Jul 18 2011, 17 Tammuz >> 5771 >> n...@math.technion.ac.il >> |- >> Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Share your knowledge. It's a way to >> http://nadav.harel.org.il |achieve immortality. >> > > > > -- > Check out my web site - www.words2u.net > > ___ > Discussions mailing list > Discussions@hamakor.org.il > http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions > ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: Off Topic: The boycott law (was Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details)
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 05:08:03PM -0600, Steve G. wrote: > Anyone for suing RMS? Nope. Even that silly law only applies to Israeli citizens. -- Tzafrir Cohen | tzaf...@jabber.org | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's tzaf...@cohens.org.il || best tzaf...@debian.org|| friend ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: Off Topic: The boycott law (was Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details)
Not that I was serious, but: 1. What is the free software movement going to do, charge me to use the software? Ban me from using it? Stop making free software? I do not think that Stallman would like that outcome, either. 2. If he is in Israel he is bound by Israeli law. He may even have to come here to defend himself in court. 3. Again, I was making fun, but my guess is that if someone did sue Stallman, it would point out his stupidity to the community, and would probably muzzle him up. The FOSS community, just like most communities in the world, is probably split up evenly about most subjects of politics. Anyone with half a brain in leadership position would be wise to avoid such divisive issues. Microsoft, on the other hand, would probably love to see it getting some PR. Anyone for suing RMS? Z. On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 3:01 PM, Nadav Har'El wrote: > On Mon, Jul 18, 2011, Steve G. wrote about "Re: Off Topic: The boycott law > (was Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details)": > > Well, here is your recourse - sue their asses... Finally, open source > will > > make news. > > Yes, go ahead and sue Stallman - this will make you very popular in the > world of free software. And very rich, because after all Stallman is a > billionaire with deep pockets, right? And of course, he's an Israeli so > he is bound by that ridiculous new Israeli law, right? > > Hmmm... I think you need to come up with a better plan :-) > > -- > Nadav Har'El| Monday, Jul 18 2011, 17 Tammuz > 5771 > n...@math.technion.ac.il > |- > Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Share your knowledge. It's a way to > http://nadav.harel.org.il |achieve immortality. > -- Check out my web site - www.words2u.net ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: Off Topic: The boycott law (was Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details)
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011, Steve G. wrote about "Re: Off Topic: The boycott law (was Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details)": > Well, here is your recourse - sue their asses... Finally, open source will > make news. Yes, go ahead and sue Stallman - this will make you very popular in the world of free software. And very rich, because after all Stallman is a billionaire with deep pockets, right? And of course, he's an Israeli so he is bound by that ridiculous new Israeli law, right? Hmmm... I think you need to come up with a better plan :-) -- Nadav Har'El| Monday, Jul 18 2011, 17 Tammuz 5771 n...@math.technion.ac.il |- Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Share your knowledge. It's a way to http://nadav.harel.org.il |achieve immortality. ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: Off Topic: The boycott law (was Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details)
Well, here is your recourse - sue their asses... Finally, open source will make news. Z. Now let's observe the flak pattern, and learn who is paying and who of those has a sense of humor. On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 2:06 PM, Shai Berger wrote: > On Sunday 17 July 2011, Steve G. wrote: > > By the way, is it not now illegal to support such a ban? > > No. It is a "civil wrongdoing": You can be sued for doing it, but not > prosecuted. > > (Just setting the record straight). > ___ > Discussions mailing list > Discussions@hamakor.org.il > http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions > -- Check out my web site - www.words2u.net ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Off Topic: The boycott law (was Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details)
On Sunday 17 July 2011, Steve G. wrote: > By the way, is it not now illegal to support such a ban? No. It is a "civil wrongdoing": You can be sued for doing it, but not prosecuted. (Just setting the record straight). ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details
On Sun, Jul 17, 2011, Orna Agmon Ben-Yehuda wrote about "Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details": > And I guess also about his explanation: > http://stallman.org/articles/palestine-trip.html Unlike other people on this list (who already mentioned Hitler on this thread, so I guess it should be officially over...), I personally do understand Stallman's view - that basically this boycott isn't as terrible as terrorism, so he'd rather see the Palestinians continue do things like this non-violent boycott, instead of returning to violent terrorism. That's all fine. But I don't understand why he seems to think that after he supported this boycott, we (Israelis) would want to hear him talk - whether he speaks in Jaffa, in Haifa, or in my back yard. And I most of all don't understand the closing of his "explanation": "I hope that Free Software / Barmagiyat Horrah / Tochna Chofshit can provide an opportunity for Israelis and Palestinians to experience practical cooperation, and that this will make at least a small contribution to peace." This is one of the ridiculous pieces of irony (sorry Richard if you're reading this...) that I've read in a while. Indeed - free software *can* and *should* bring Israelis, Palestinians, Iranians, Indians, Pakistanis, Americans and everyone else together to do something useful together. But you can't do this when suddenly some of these free-software writers start to boycott the other free-softwre writers because of the universities they study at, the place they work at, or just the place they live in. Richard, the boycott that your Palestinian hosts asked you to support may sound to you justified, but no matter how you twist it around, it doesn't help the cause of free software. It will mean fewer (if any) Israelis will listen to your talk, it already means that many Israelis heard of free software for the first time through this negative story (which already appeared on the Israeli media), and it means that we lost a chance to perhaps bring together Palestinian and Israeli free software software writers and users - because now every such attempt will look to each side as a "loss" in some sort of juvenile pissing contest - a failure of the boycott or caving-in to one. -- Nadav Har'El| Sunday, Jul 17 2011, 16 Tammuz 5771 n...@math.technion.ac.il |- Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Learn from mistakes of others; you won't http://nadav.harel.org.il |live long enough to make them all yourself ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details
F@#k RMS, F@#k his hosts,F@#k his organization and F@#k his old accomplishments. There is something somewhere in the Talmud about people whose actions in old age negate their early accomplishments. I am not in the area, but the only way I would go is if I had enough rotten tomatoes, eggs and old shoes to throw. This would be not morally different from going to listen to the head of a pro-Fascist organization that has done really good work 20 years ago on the influences leading to Hitler's pathology, at an organization that would like to see a peaceful return to totalitarian statehood or ethnic cleansing through mutual agreements. And that is not to say that I agree or disagree with RMS opinions or motivations in accepting the ban. By the way, is it not now illegal to support such a ban? I wonder if the police is going to close the organization and deport RMS. But that is another can of worms. Have fun at the lecture. Z. ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details
Stallman asked me to inform people about his two talks: Haifa: Copyright vs Community in the Age of the Computer Networks July 21 at 5pm (sharp). Baladna Youth Club Zion Street 3-A Haifa Tel Aviv area: For a Free Digital Society July 22, 15:00 Al Saraya Theater Mifratz Shlomo St. 10 (near the hamam) Ancient Jaffa And I guess also about his explanation: http://stallman.org/articles/palestine-trip.html Orna 2011/7/17 Guy Sheffer > ** > Hey all, > I just spoke to the organizer, Sami Abu-Schada. Talk is in the Hebrew-Arab > theater in Yafo. > They sound like good folks. And they would be happy to have people come > (and don't want to get in to the politics). > > > What: A talk by Richard Stallman sponsored by the jaffa youth movement > Where: the Al Saraya Theater courtyard Mifratz Shlomo St. 10Ancient Jaffa > (Near the HAMAM) > When: July 22nd at 3pm (sharp) > PDF with the full info: > > http://pdfcast.org/pdf/invitation-to-a-talk-by-richard-stallman-in-tel-aviv-israel-july-22nd > > > > > > > > > > > ___ > Linux-il mailing list > linux...@cs.huji.ac.il > http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il > > -- Orna Agmon Ben-Yehuda. http://ladypine.org ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details
הערה אחרונה (באמת הפעם). איזה טעם יש בהרצאה שלו על החופש בו הוא מאמין אם הוא לא באמת נוהג כך? בעיני, גם ללא השקפה פוליטית או גאווה פגועה אין שום טעם להשתתף בהרצאה על שקרים... ברכות לכל מי שבכל זאת הולך, זאת הזדמנות חד פעמית להקשיב לבחור הזה שבאמת עשה הרבה אבל בעיני נכשל במבחן המציאות. בברכה, Yaron Shahrabani On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 5:12 PM, Shachar Shemesh wrote: הדיון הזה מסרב למות. נדב – הטקסט שאתה מצטט הוא דרישה של BDS כדי שסטולמן יוכל להופיע במקום. זה לא אומר שזו דעתם, או שהם שותפים פעילים לחרם. זה נכון שרוב הארגונים לא היו מוכנים לכתוב טקסט כזה (ואכן, סטולמן לא מדבר שם הפעם), ושזו אמרה פוליטית, אבל מדינת ישראל סובלת מעודף פוליטיזיה. אני חושב שלהתחיל חרמות וויכוחים עם קבוצה רק בגלל שלא היה להם את השכל להגיד „אם כך אז לא תודה“ זו הסחפות. אני מציע שכל מי שזה מפריע לו, שלא ילך. כל מי שרוצה ללכת, שילך, וזהו. All in favor say "aye", but quietly and to themselves. שחר On 17/07/11 16:35, Nadav Har'El wrote: On Sun, Jul 17, 2011, Guy Sheffer wrote about "Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details": Hey all, I just spoke to the organizer, Sami Abu-Schada. Talk is in the Hebrew-Arab theater in Yafo. They sound like good folks. And they would be happy to have people come (and don't want to get in to the politics). ... PDF with the full info:http://pdfcast.org/pdf/invitation-to-a-talk-by-richard-stallman-in-tel-aviv-israel-july-22nd They sure *do* want to get into the politics :( Did you see the emphasized text in the end of that invitation? "the organizers of the event would like it to be known that they are in full support of the rights of Palestenians. In particular, the organizers support the call for boycott of complicit Israeli institutions. Richard Stallman is following the boycott during this trip out of respect to the Palestinians hosts who invited him to the region" Do people who "don't want to get in to the politics" normally include such texts on invitations to talks about software? As it stands, because this text is so boldly included in the *invitation*, it looks like just *attending* this talk means you support this statement by its hosts. And if I consider that "complicit Israeli institutions" include, according to their definition, almost all Israeli institutions (and not just those directly involved with the occupied territories), certainly even insitution I ever worked at or studied at, I frankly don't see how I can attend this talk. -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd.http://www.lingnu.com ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details
הדיון הזה מסרב למות. נדב – הטקסט שאתה מצטט הוא דרישה של BDS כדי שסטולמן יוכל להופיע במקום. זה לא אומר שזו דעתם, או שהם שותפים פעילים לחרם. זה נכון שרוב הארגונים לא היו מוכנים לכתוב טקסט כזה (ואכן, סטולמן לא מדבר שם הפעם), ושזו אמרה פוליטית, אבל מדינת ישראל סובלת מעודף פוליטיזיה. אני חושב שלהתחיל חרמות וויכוחים עם קבוצה רק בגלל שלא היה להם את השכל להגיד „אם כך אז לא תודה“ זו הסחפות. אני מציע שכל מי שזה מפריע לו, שלא ילך. כל מי שרוצה ללכת, שילך, וזהו. All in favor say "aye", but quietly and to themselves. שחר On 17/07/11 16:35, Nadav Har'El wrote: On Sun, Jul 17, 2011, Guy Sheffer wrote about "Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details": Hey all, I just spoke to the organizer, Sami Abu-Schada. Talk is in the Hebrew-Arab theater in Yafo. They sound like good folks. And they would be happy to have people come (and don't want to get in to the politics). ... PDF with the full info: http://pdfcast.org/pdf/invitation-to-a-talk-by-richard-stallman-in-tel-aviv-israel-july-22nd They sure *do* want to get into the politics :( Did you see the emphasized text in the end of that invitation? "the organizers of the event would like it to be known that they are in full support of the rights of Palestenians. In particular, the organizers support the call for boycott of complicit Israeli institutions. Richard Stallman is following the boycott during this trip out of respect to the Palestinians hosts who invited him to the region" Do people who "don't want to get in to the politics" normally include such texts on invitations to talks about software? As it stands, because this text is so boldly included in the *invitation*, it looks like just *attending* this talk means you support this statement by its hosts. And if I consider that "complicit Israeli institutions" include, according to their definition, almost all Israeli institutions (and not just those directly involved with the occupied territories), certainly even insitution I ever worked at or studied at, I frankly don't see how I can attend this talk. -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd. http://www.lingnu.com ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details
On Sun, Jul 17, 2011, Guy Sheffer wrote about "Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details": > Hey all, > I just spoke to the organizer, Sami Abu-Schada. Talk is in the > Hebrew-Arab theater in Yafo. > They sound like good folks. And they would be happy to have people come > (and don't want to get in to the politics). >... > PDF with the full info: > http://pdfcast.org/pdf/invitation-to-a-talk-by-richard-stallman-in-tel-aviv-israel-july-22nd They sure *do* want to get into the politics :( Did you see the emphasized text in the end of that invitation? "the organizers of the event would like it to be known that they are in full support of the rights of Palestenians. In particular, the organizers support the call for boycott of complicit Israeli institutions. Richard Stallman is following the boycott during this trip out of respect to the Palestinians hosts who invited him to the region" Do people who "don't want to get in to the politics" normally include such texts on invitations to talks about software? As it stands, because this text is so boldly included in the *invitation*, it looks like just *attending* this talk means you support this statement by its hosts. And if I consider that "complicit Israeli institutions" include, according to their definition, almost all Israeli institutions (and not just those directly involved with the occupied territories), certainly even insitution I ever worked at or studied at, I frankly don't see how I can attend this talk. -- Nadav Har'El| Sunday, Jul 17 2011, 15 Tammuz 5771 n...@math.technion.ac.il |- Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Linux *is* user-friendly. Not http://nadav.harel.org.il |idiot-friendly, but user-friendly. ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
