Re: Great Wall of DEP

[Aymeric Augustin]

On 8 mai 2014, at 16:26, Michael Manfre  wrote:

> It's been almost a month and the next step in the process for the first two 
> DEPs is to merge the PRs and assign numbers to make them "active". The 
> discussion for each of them can take place over the coming months. I hate to 
> sound so cynical, but if none of the 30+ current core developers are able to 
> find 10-15 minutes of available time over the span of a month to merge and 
> assign a number to a DEP, I think it's safe to say that the DEP process is 
> not going to work in its current form.

If you consider core devs who made a non-trivial commit in the last three 
months, the baseline isn't 30+ people, it's just a handful. If you further 
reduce this set to the people who were at PyCon when the idea of DEPs was 
discussed, you probably arrive at zero. Core devs who aren't active anymore 
often get excited at conferences but that doesn't give them free time to 
execute afterwards.

Besides the 10-15 minutes could easily turn into becoming the contact person 
for these PEPs :-)

> 1) The DEP process was quickly brainstormed and put in to practice. Did this 
> move too quickly? Should this sort of process change be more conscientious of 
> the Django release cycle and not take place after the feature freeze?

I think we're mostly missing someone to bootstrap the process. Since no one in 
the core team appears to be interested, if someone else wants to take the 
matter into his/her own hands, I'm happy to advocate for partial committer 
status 
(https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/internals/contributing/committing-code/#commit-access).
 Contact me privately if you wish to discuss this.

> 2) The core devs know their "territory" in the code, but did enough of them 
> agree to take on /django/deps before it was put in to practice?

Undoubtedly.

> 3) Django lists over 30 current core developers. Does Django have enough 
> *active* core developers for its current user base and existing processes? Is 
> there a process in place for moving an inactive core developer from "Current 
> Developers" to "Developers Emeritus"?


Classifying core devs wouldn't achieve much. Removing core devs has no 
practical benefit, on the contrary. Our availability comes and goes. That's 
life! However, we all know that there's no such thing as too many core devs and 
that we would benefit from a larger core team.

-- 
Aymeric.

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Re: Feature request: ttl method for cache

[Piotr Gosławski]

I was fixing my little helper function to behave more like Sean's and I 
think I've found a bug in locmem. Could you please take a look at this:

>>> cache

>>> cache.set('a', 1)
>>> cache.set('b', 2, None)
>>> cache.get('a')
1
>>> cache.get('b')
2
>>> cache.has_key('a')
True
>>> cache.has_key('b')
False

Either I'm missing something or has_key() is not working correctly for keys 
without expiration time.

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Re: Great Wall of DEP

[Thomas Leo]

Their is some value in commenting directly on a pull-request, for example 
you can comment on specific lines of code, and the interface is very 
friendly. 

With that being said, having a link to related google group pages (or 
another mail-archive site) in the pull-request message would be a great 
convention to get into.

On Thursday, May 8, 2014 8:49:28 AM UTC-4, Łukasz Rekucki wrote:
>
> Hi folks, 
>
> Discussing DEPs on Github inside Pull Request comments seems like a 
> really bad idea, because it excludes a whole bunch of people that are 
> subscribed to this list (I always thought this was the sole purpose of 
> this list). 
>
> The best thing about PEPs is that they always get posted to python-dev 
> in *full text* and the discussion happens there. The email thread then 
> gets recorded inside the PEP so that 10 years later you can easily 
> read the whole discussion. Github comments don't have this feature, 
> really. 
>
> Throwing in my 2 cents, 
> Łukasz 
>
>
> On 8 May 2014 14:21, Florian Apolloner > 
> wrote: 
> > Hi, 
> > 
> > 
> > On Thursday, May 8, 2014 2:13:52 PM UTC+2, Carl wrote: 
> >> 
> >> Just noticed this message, and the DEP PRs are still open a week later. 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Can someone shuffle this along, please? 
> > 
> > 
> > We are in the final stages of 1.7, I personally would rather focus on 
> that 
> > first. 
> > 
> > -- 
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
> Groups 
> > "Django developers" group. 
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> an 
> > email to django-develop...@googlegroups.com . 
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> > django-d...@googlegroups.com. 
>
> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers. 
> > To view this discussion on the web visit 
> > 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/1d33bd04-a509-4c34-8bfe-2e4df31a3add%40googlegroups.com.
>  
>
> > 
> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. 
>
>
>
> -- 
> Łukasz Rekucki 
>

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Re: Great Wall of DEP

[Michael Manfre]

It's been almost a month and the next step in the process for the first two
DEPs is to merge the PRs and assign numbers to make them "active". The
discussion for each of them can take place over the coming months. I hate
to sound so cynical, but if none of the 30+ current core developers are
able to find 10-15 minutes of available time over the span of a month to
merge and assign a number to a DEP, I think it's safe to say that the DEP
process is not going to work in its current form.

I realize that most of the core developers are not paid to work on Django,
are very busy with polishing 1.7, or busy with non-Django things, but there
are clearly some questions that need to be discussed (some probably just
among the core devs) to figure out how to improve the current situation and
avoid repeating it. The current situation is not really that bad, but I
would be surprised if I was the only person that thinks any feature
proposal that would require a DEP is probably not worth doing at this point
in time.

This discussion is more involved than activating a DEP and should probably
be postponed until 1.7 is out of the way.

1) The DEP process was quickly brainstormed and put in to practice. Did
this move too quickly? Should this sort of process change be more
conscientious of the Django release cycle and not take place after the
feature freeze?

2) The core devs know their "territory" in the code, but did enough of them
agree to take on /django/deps before it was put in to practice?

3) Django lists over 30 current core developers. Does Django have enough
*active* core developers for its current user base and existing processes?
Is there a process in place for moving an inactive core developer from
"Current Developers" to "Developers Emeritus"?

Regards,
Michael Manfre

PS The DEP experience so far has been reminding me of a few specific
examples of "government bureaucracy" that I've banged my head against many
times over the years. My motivation for pressing the DEP issue is for the
sake of everyone's sanity by avoiding it devolving to that level of
frustration.



On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 8:21 AM, Florian Apolloner wrote:

> Hi,
>
>
> On Thursday, May 8, 2014 2:13:52 PM UTC+2, Carl wrote:
>>
>> Just noticed this message, and the DEP PRs are still open a week later.
>
>
>> Can someone shuffle this along, please?
>>
>
> We are in the final stages of 1.7, I personally would rather focus on that
> first.
>
> --
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> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/1d33bd04-a509-4c34-8bfe-2e4df31a3add%40googlegroups.com
> .
>
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

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Re: Great Wall of DEP

[Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]]

I have to agree that the decentralized nature of the mailing list would
probably stand the test of time a bit better, plus the ability to in-line
reply makes larger discussions easier on the eyes.

In reference to OPs original comments;
Enhancement proposals are a great idea, but ultimately they will suffer
with the exact same problem as other PRs, waiting on core devs. Unless a
core dev has a particular interest in that specific EP, then you're pretty
much waiting on a core dev to have "spare time" where they haven't got
anything else they'd rather be doing, as well as not being paid to do it.
That's not a dig at the core devs in any way, it's just a well established
behaviour of open source contributors.

Other projects have got around this issue by getting sponsorship and having
an experienced full time person(s) keeping on top of things, leaving the
rest of the core team to focus on getting the code done. Another
alternative is to set a threshold on proposals, meaning that it has to be
either accepted or rejected after a certain number of days since the last
edit (by means of a vote count or key person decision).  Really it comes
down to two things.. keeping it simple enough for users to contribute
easily, whilst enforcing a certain level of quality assurance, which can
only be done by a trusted (and hopefully experienced) person. Personally I
don't think Django has found the sweet spot for this yet.

Cal


On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 1:49 PM, Łukasz Rekucki  wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
> Discussing DEPs on Github inside Pull Request comments seems like a
> really bad idea, because it excludes a whole bunch of people that are
> subscribed to this list (I always thought this was the sole purpose of
> this list).
>
> The best thing about PEPs is that they always get posted to python-dev
> in *full text* and the discussion happens there. The email thread then
> gets recorded inside the PEP so that 10 years later you can easily
> read the whole discussion. Github comments don't have this feature,
> really.
>
> Throwing in my 2 cents,
> Łukasz
>
>
> On 8 May 2014 14:21, Florian Apolloner  wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> >
> > On Thursday, May 8, 2014 2:13:52 PM UTC+2, Carl wrote:
> >>
> >> Just noticed this message, and the DEP PRs are still open a week later.
> >>
> >>
> >> Can someone shuffle this along, please?
> >
> >
> > We are in the final stages of 1.7, I personally would rather focus on
> that
> > first.
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Django developers" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> > email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> > To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com.
> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers.
> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/1d33bd04-a509-4c34-8bfe-2e4df31a3add%40googlegroups.com
> .
> >
> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
>
>
> --
> Łukasz Rekucki
>
> --
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> .
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

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Re: Great Wall of DEP

[Łukasz Rekucki]

Hi folks,

Discussing DEPs on Github inside Pull Request comments seems like a
really bad idea, because it excludes a whole bunch of people that are
subscribed to this list (I always thought this was the sole purpose of
this list).

The best thing about PEPs is that they always get posted to python-dev
in *full text* and the discussion happens there. The email thread then
gets recorded inside the PEP so that 10 years later you can easily
read the whole discussion. Github comments don't have this feature,
really.

Throwing in my 2 cents,
Łukasz


On 8 May 2014 14:21, Florian Apolloner  wrote:
> Hi,
>
>
> On Thursday, May 8, 2014 2:13:52 PM UTC+2, Carl wrote:
>>
>> Just noticed this message, and the DEP PRs are still open a week later.
>>
>>
>> Can someone shuffle this along, please?
>
>
> We are in the final stages of 1.7, I personally would rather focus on that
> first.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Django developers" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/1d33bd04-a509-4c34-8bfe-2e4df31a3add%40googlegroups.com.
>
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.



-- 
Łukasz Rekucki

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Re: Great Wall of DEP

[Florian Apolloner]

Hi,

On Thursday, May 8, 2014 2:13:52 PM UTC+2, Carl wrote:
>
> Just noticed this message, and the DEP PRs are still open a week later.  


> Can someone shuffle this along, please? 
>

We are in the final stages of 1.7, I personally would rather focus on that 
first.

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Re: Great Wall of DEP

[Carl van Tonder]

Hi all,

> If no-one else has looked at and commented on those two DEPs within
> the next day or two, I will have time to do so, and will do so (and
> feel free to poke me if I haven't).

Just noticed this message, and the DEP PRs are still open a week later.

Can someone shuffle this along, please?

C


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