Re: [dmarc-ietf] Setting From: MLM, To: author, Bcc: subscribers
Rewriting the Message To seems to have no characteristics that are likely to cause messages to be blocked as not trustworthy. This approach will not be detected as anomalous by an incoming gateway. Messages to BCC recipients and messages to non-modifying distribution lists are already received with the message From address being different from the SMTP RCPT address. Since a user knows that a received message is for himself, a message that reports "To" as someone other than himself may cause minor confusion, but is not likely to cause significant misunderstanding.. In sum, no one seems to be concerned about the integrity of the "To" header currently, and there is no obvious reason why we would expect this to change in the future. For mailing lists that are insist on editing submissions, changing SMTP MAIL FROM and Message From into the list domain, and the Message To into the author domain, will solve the sender authentication problems created by doing so. Just as importantly, it requires no special pleading to participant domain administrators. DF From: jesse.thompson=40wisc@dmarc.ietf.org Sent: 7/10/20 6:22 PM To: dmarc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [dmarc-ietf] Setting From: MLM, To: author, Bcc: subscribers On 6/29/20 4:18 AM, Alessandro Vesely wrote: > Hi all, > > I mentioned setting To: author instead of From: author-like, near the bottom > of a message[*] a week ago, but missed any WG comments on it. That setting > would result if I run a mailing list "by hand", using a normal email client. > I'd hit reply and then add a bunch of Bcc:'s. Of course, a suitable template > would insert a subject tag instead of "Re:", et cetera. > > It'd be a cleaner solution than From: rewriting, inasmuch as it saves the > association between display names and addresses, for the sake of address > books consistency. The anomaly of seeing authors in To: fields, with some > getting used to it, may even become a distinguished characteristic of > indirect mail flows. > > How unbearable would that be? And why? Maybe some comments on this subject > can bring out some more details about the rightness or wrongness of the > various flavors of From: rewriting. If nothing else changes; as in: MLMs have to keep promoting the use of From munging to their list operators, then I think it would be useful for these MLM to also offer (and perhaps default-to-ON if it works well in practice) your idea of replacing the To with the author during the munging process. It would increase the odds that the author will be added to the recipient's address book, either manually, or via auto-collection by MUAs when they Reply-all (I believe that most MUAs will include the To in the recipient list if it differs from the user's own address) Recipients (and individual list operators) may still complain about the From munging, but I like your line of reasoning of getting people used to "distinguished characteristic of indirect mail flows". Recipients will still be saddled with "author via listname" polluting their address books (via address auto-collection). This idea doesn't solve that problem. Jesse ___ dmarc mailing list dmarc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmarc ___ dmarc mailing list dmarc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmarc
Re: [dmarc-ietf] Setting From: MLM, To: author, Bcc: subscribers
On Sat 11/Jul/2020 00:22:16 +0200 Jesse Thompson wrote: On 6/29/20 4:18 AM, Alessandro Vesely wrote: Hi all, I mentioned setting To: author instead of From: author-like, near the bottom of a message[*] a week ago, but missed any WG comments on it. That setting would result if I run a mailing list "by hand", using a normal email client. I'd hit reply and then add a bunch of Bcc:'s. Of course, a suitable template would insert a subject tag instead of "Re:", et cetera. Recipients will still be saddled with "author via listname" polluting their address books (via address auto-collection). This idea doesn't solve that problem. If the author is in To:, both name and address, rather than a munged field we'd have something like From: Mailing List ID Best Ale -- ___ dmarc mailing list dmarc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmarc
Re: [dmarc-ietf] Setting From: MLM, To: author, Bcc: subscribers
On 6/29/20 4:18 AM, Alessandro Vesely wrote: > Hi all, > > I mentioned setting To: author instead of From: author-like, near the bottom > of a message[*] a week ago, but missed any WG comments on it. That setting > would result if I run a mailing list "by hand", using a normal email client. > I'd hit reply and then add a bunch of Bcc:'s. Of course, a suitable template > would insert a subject tag instead of "Re:", et cetera. > > It'd be a cleaner solution than From: rewriting, inasmuch as it saves the > association between display names and addresses, for the sake of address > books consistency. The anomaly of seeing authors in To: fields, with some > getting used to it, may even become a distinguished characteristic of > indirect mail flows. > > How unbearable would that be? And why? Maybe some comments on this subject > can bring out some more details about the rightness or wrongness of the > various flavors of From: rewriting. If nothing else changes; as in: MLMs have to keep promoting the use of From munging to their list operators, then I think it would be useful for these MLM to also offer (and perhaps default-to-ON if it works well in practice) your idea of replacing the To with the author during the munging process. It would increase the odds that the author will be added to the recipient's address book, either manually, or via auto-collection by MUAs when they Reply-all (I believe that most MUAs will include the To in the recipient list if it differs from the user's own address) Recipients (and individual list operators) may still complain about the From munging, but I like your line of reasoning of getting people used to "distinguished characteristic of indirect mail flows". Recipients will still be saddled with "author via listname" polluting their address books (via address auto-collection). This idea doesn't solve that problem. Jesse ___ dmarc mailing list dmarc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmarc
Re: [dmarc-ietf] Setting From: MLM, To: author, Bcc: subscribers
You were partially right. Outlook allows me to pick columns, but I forgot that the feature was available. I don't see the feature on two web MUAs or two phone MUAs that I checked. Doug Foster -Original Message- From: dmarc [mailto:dmarc-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alessandro Vesely Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2020 4:52 AM To: dmarc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [dmarc-ietf] Setting From: MLM, To: author, Bcc: subscribers On Mon 29/Jun/2020 15:01:07 +0200 Doug Foster wrote: > Very creative suggestion. We need some new ideas. > > However, I just checked my MUAs. All of them assume that "To" is > unimportant, so it is not displayed in the message list. "To" only appears > in the message view (including the Preview pane).Without more > visibility, it probably does not sufficiently solve the user interface need. > Which also suggests why I have not seen spammers try to manipulate > that field. Can't you select what fields to display in the folder view? The Sent folder must look boring if it only displays From:. How about catchall folders? Hm... I though all email clients featured customizable views nowadays. Thank you for replying Ale -- ___ dmarc mailing list dmarc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmarc ___ dmarc mailing list dmarc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmarc
Re: [dmarc-ietf] Setting From: MLM, To: author, Bcc: subscribers
On Mon 29/Jun/2020 15:01:07 +0200 Doug Foster wrote: Very creative suggestion. We need some new ideas. However, I just checked my MUAs. All of them assume that "To" is unimportant, so it is not displayed in the message list. "To" only appears in the message view (including the Preview pane).Without more visibility, it probably does not sufficiently solve the user interface need. Which also suggests why I have not seen spammers try to manipulate that field. Can't you select what fields to display in the folder view? The Sent folder must look boring if it only displays From:. How about catchall folders? Hm... I though all email clients featured customizable views nowadays. Thank you for replying Ale -- ___ dmarc mailing list dmarc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmarc
Re: [dmarc-ietf] Setting From: MLM, To: author, Bcc: subscribers
Very creative suggestion. We need some new ideas. However, I just checked my MUAs. All of them assume that "To" is unimportant, so it is not displayed in the message list. "To" only appears in the message view (including the Preview pane).Without more visibility, it probably does not sufficiently solve the user interface need. Which also suggests why I have not seen spammers try to manipulate that field. Doug Foster -Original Message- From: dmarc [mailto:dmarc-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alessandro Vesely Sent: Monday, June 29, 2020 5:19 AM To: dmarc-ietf Subject: [dmarc-ietf] Setting From: MLM, To: author, Bcc: subscribers Hi all, I mentioned setting To: author instead of From: author-like, near the bottom of a message[*] a week ago, but missed any WG comments on it. That setting would result if I run a mailing list "by hand", using a normal email client. I'd hit reply and then add a bunch of Bcc:'s. Of course, a suitable template would insert a subject tag instead of "Re:", et cetera. It'd be a cleaner solution than From: rewriting, inasmuch as it saves the association between display names and addresses, for the sake of address books consistency. The anomaly of seeing authors in To: fields, with some getting used to it, may even become a distinguished characteristic of indirect mail flows. How unbearable would that be? And why? Maybe some comments on this subject can bring out some more details about the rightness or wrongness of the various flavors of From: rewriting. Best Ale -- [*] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dmarc/Mi6jz1SfgOnz7JjPUemkpJvFQ_w ___ dmarc mailing list dmarc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmarc ___ dmarc mailing list dmarc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmarc
[dmarc-ietf] Setting From: MLM, To: author, Bcc: subscribers
Hi all, I mentioned setting To: author instead of From: author-like, near the bottom of a message[*] a week ago, but missed any WG comments on it. That setting would result if I run a mailing list "by hand", using a normal email client. I'd hit reply and then add a bunch of Bcc:'s. Of course, a suitable template would insert a subject tag instead of "Re:", et cetera. It'd be a cleaner solution than From: rewriting, inasmuch as it saves the association between display names and addresses, for the sake of address books consistency. The anomaly of seeing authors in To: fields, with some getting used to it, may even become a distinguished characteristic of indirect mail flows. How unbearable would that be? And why? Maybe some comments on this subject can bring out some more details about the rightness or wrongness of the various flavors of From: rewriting. Best Ale -- [*] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dmarc/Mi6jz1SfgOnz7JjPUemkpJvFQ_w ___ dmarc mailing list dmarc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmarc
