Re: [Dng] Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
Доброго времени суток, Martijn. Спасибо за ответ, Tue, 3 Feb 2015 16:34:59 +0200, вы писали: I (my company) looks after a lot of servers, and we are *always* looking for ways to make things go better, faster, and stronger :) automation is a *huge* part of what we do, as is security. Systemd does not really offer us much that we don't already have, and the price we need to pay to take on systemd is not one we are comfortable with. Untested, unproven, and at the end of the day an overall framework architecture that we think sucks. Systemd offers a lot of interesting things for desktop users, which we are not. We are server monkeys, and don't really care about desktop bootimes. I *like* initscripts, but also like OpenRC and upstart (we are an Ubuntu shop). Plus many of desktop users do not turn off their machines, but simply put it to sleep. С уважением, Ста. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Looking for advices in preparation to switch from Debian to Devuan
On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 1:48 AM, Anto arya...@chello.at wrote: No comment anyone? Actually, i didn't see your first post... For Debian, you could try, as a hack, to install either and older wheezy or squeeze, pin stuff and upgrade. There are also docs laying around for stippping systemd from wheezy to varying degrees of success. For Devuan, it's still in an alpha state. I am not an authority on the matter, but i'd recommend you wait until it's stable before using it in VPSs. HTH, Nuno ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 2:38 PM, Ста Деюс sthu.d...@openmailbox.org wrote: But, at the first, what is planned to perform to protect «Devuan» from the guys, that got hold of the fantastic project «Debian»? In other words, if the guys come to «Devuan» and by their cruelty will start to «help» some of developers to corrupt the project, do abnormal, unnatural for the project things -- similar like constitution of «Debian» appeared, finnaly the «systemd» was forcibly set up: how we will protect our project? Very good question. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 01:04:05PM +, Nuno Magalhães wrote: On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 2:38 PM, Ста Деюс sthu.d...@openmailbox.org wrote: But, at the first, what is planned to perform to protect «Devuan» from the guys, that got hold of the fantastic project «Debian»? In other words, if the guys come to «Devuan» and by their cruelty will start to «help» some of developers to corrupt the project, do abnormal, unnatural for the project things -- similar like constitution of «Debian» appeared, finnaly the «systemd» was forcibly set up: how we will protect our project? Very good question. Well the answer is simple: if such an unlikely invasion would happen, we will always have the opportunity to fork Devuan, for the good of its users :) Having said that, I personally think that there is no reason to protect Devuan from the [bad] guys. If we would like to do something good for Devuan we should now focus on helping Devuan developers making it happen, not defending them from being zombified by unspecified members of The Dark Power(TM) :P -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
Didier Kryn wrote: Le 23/02/2015 14:04, Nuno Magalhães a écrit : On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 2:38 PM, Ста Деюс sthu.d...@openmailbox.org wrote: But, at the first, what is planned to perform to protect «Devuan» from the guys, that got hold of the fantastic project «Debian»? In other words, if the guys come to «Devuan» and by their cruelty will start to «help» some of developers to corrupt the project, do abnormal, unnatural for the project things -- similar like constitution of «Debian» appeared, finnaly the «systemd» was forcibly set up: how we will protect our project? Very good question. ___ I think this question goes together with the badge or logo question. It must go beyond sans-systemd; it is more about principles. Let's list some: - freedom of choice, - interchangealility of solutions to a given need, - reduce inter-dependencies to the strict minimum Don't know if KISS goes into details, but maybe it could inspire the logo. KISS Linux? -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News XI
Could you please cease «kickass» here -- for people read your news also, but such rudness leaves them nothing but to shrink from your writing. Thanks again for the news though. “kickass” is not even a swear word. signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Easy forkability
On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 01:19:04PM +, KatolaZ wrote: On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 01:04:05PM +, Nuno Magalhães wrote: On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 2:38 PM, Ста Деюс sthu.d...@openmailbox.org wrote: But, at the first, what is planned to perform to protect «Devuan» from the guys, that got hold of the fantastic project «Debian»? In other words, if the guys come to «Devuan» and by their cruelty will start to «help» some of developers to corrupt the project, do abnormal, unnatural for the project things -- similar like constitution of «Debian» appeared, finnaly the «systemd» was forcibly set up: how we will protect our project? Very good question. Well the answer is simple: if such an unlikely invasion would happen, we will always have the opportunity to fork Devuan, for the good of its users :) This suggests that one of the goals of Devuan should be easy forkability. But it's not clear to me what this involves technically. Any suggestions? Are there aspects of the existing structure of Debian that made it more difficult to fork? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] KDE systemd lock-in
On Sun, 22 Feb 2015 16:50:05 -0600 T.J. Duchene t.j.duch...@gmail.com wrote: This was inevitable and expected. I'm not trying to be an I told you so but I have mentioned this is a likely scenario before now. It's not the end of the universe, however. LOL, for the first time in history, T.J. and I agree on something. I too said KDE would soon be in the systemd bot army. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
Доброго времени суток, Didier. Спасибо за ответ, Tue, 03 Feb 2015 12:31:33 +0100, вы писали: I think it is fine that T.J.Duchene gives his opinion, although I disagree with him. I'm very optimistic about Systemd-free Linux, so optimistic that I think Devuan is simply preparing the future of Debian. Sure! The reason why RedHat develops and enforces systemd is clear to me: they have customers paying for a ready-made system that RedHat would maintain. They want to increase their productivity by introducing tools which automate things as much as possible, plus security-related features -- a valid sales argument. It makes full sense; that's their busyness model. Which security you are talking about? systems - has a lot of poorely tested code at one hand, that uses root-priveleges at another hand! But what are Debian maintainers/developpers working for? OK they try to provide an OS that's usable out of the box, but for who? Sure For those who has power over the developers|maintainers, that like security issues of software, who need to control every person on the planet, or occupy the planet! - And who is it?! - As usually, the well-known planet accupants, the original capitalists, the US/UK ! it works for Everybody, they claim, but this includes primarily people like themselves, geeks and hackers. And they likely will see geeks and hackers run away. Debian has taken a very wrong decision but they're going to have chances to change it. No! They continue as it is the goal of the 4 voters and their masters: to bind the great project to themselves. In systemd i see pure attack on linux and the free software. С уважением, Ста. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] plan to install valentine pre-alpha on real hardware.
I have a three-or-four year-old laptop on which I am replacingg the hard drive. It seems to be old enough not to have proper virtualisatoin hardware. It currently dual-boots Debian testing, and, once in a blue moon, Windows XP. (So far the main problems I have had is to copy Windows' three partitions -- the one that runs, the so-called restore partition, and the EFI partition. I'm hoping that grub will find a way to make the running partition bootable. I managed to get clonezilla to copy the three partitions (even though the EFI partition seemed to violate what I know of the EFI specs in that it didn't have a FAT 12, 16, or 32 filesystem. Maybe grub will be able to figure out how to boot what needs booting.) But maybe this is the ideal time to try the iso on the new drive and try it on real hardware instead of a virtual machine. If things were to go massively wrong, I could always put the old disk back in. Except I need instructions just how to do this. It does not have a CD or DVD drive, but will boot from USB stick. How do I go about putting the installation .iso onto a USB stick so it will boot? Debian should be good enough to accomplish that, riight? Or is there another installation method it might be more useful to test? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Init Freedom badges
On Saturday, 21 de February de 2015 18:49:35 hellekin escribió: On 02/21/15 13:40, Go Linux wrote: Urm . . . it's about more than just init and that needs to be conveyed in the badge. *** It says if :) https://git.devuan.org/devuan-editors/devuan-art/blob/devuan-alpha/graphic s/init-freedom/if.png I'd prefer any logo that does not use english initials or play on words. er Envite -- A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? OpenPGP key: 1586 50C8 7DBF B050 DE62 EA12 70B4 00F3 EEC7 C372 Spiral galaxies always have at least TWO arms. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] plan to install valentine pre-alpha on real hardware.
On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 04:35:32PM -0500, Jude Nelson wrote: Have you tried dd'ing the .iso directly to the USB stick? No. There are enough things that can potentially go wrong that I thought it might be best to get instructions first, rather than to be debugging soething totally wrong. Example: # dd if=/path/to/valentine/pre-alpha.iso of=/dev/sdb bs=1M (assuming /dev/sdb is your USB device). -Jude Thanks. -- hendrik On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 4:24 PM, Hendrik Boom hend...@topoi.pooq.com wrote: I have a three-or-four year-old laptop on which I am replacingg the hard drive. It seems to be old enough not to have proper virtualisatoin hardware. It currently dual-boots Debian testing, and, once in a blue moon, Windows XP. (So far the main problems I have had is to copy Windows' three partitions -- the one that runs, the so-called restore partition, and the EFI partition. I'm hoping that grub will find a way to make the running partition bootable. I managed to get clonezilla to copy the three partitions (even though the EFI partition seemed to violate what I know of the EFI specs in that it didn't have a FAT 12, 16, or 32 filesystem. Maybe grub will be able to figure out how to boot what needs booting.) But maybe this is the ideal time to try the iso on the new drive and try it on real hardware instead of a virtual machine. If things were to go massively wrong, I could always put the old disk back in. Except I need instructions just how to do this. It does not have a CD or DVD drive, but will boot from USB stick. How do I go about putting the installation .iso onto a USB stick so it will boot? Debian should be good enough to accomplish that, riight? Or is there another installation method it might be more useful to test? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 07:47:32AM -1000, Joel Roth wrote: Didier Kryn wrote: Le 23/02/2015 14:04, Nuno Magalhães a écrit : On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 2:38 PM, Ста Деюс sthu.d...@openmailbox.org wrote: But, at the first, what is planned to perform to protect «Devuan» from the guys, that got hold of the fantastic project «Debian»? In other words, if the guys come to «Devuan» and by their cruelty will start to «help» some of developers to corrupt the project, do abnormal, unnatural for the project things -- similar like constitution of «Debian» appeared, finnaly the «systemd» was forcibly set up: how we will protect our project? Very good question. ___ I think this question goes together with the badge or logo question. It must go beyond sans-systemd; it is more about principles. Let's list some: - freedom of choice, - interchangealility of solutions to a given need, - reduce inter-dependencies to the strict minimum Don't know if KISS goes into details, but maybe it could inspire the logo. KISS Linux? Unless the band has an objection to the use of its trademark. Unlikely, since we're in a different business entirely. Unless, of course, we choose to use the band's logo as well... -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] plan to install valentine pre-alpha on real hardware.
Have you tried dd'ing the .iso directly to the USB stick? Example: # dd if=/path/to/valentine/pre-alpha.iso of=/dev/sdb bs=1M (assuming /dev/sdb is your USB device). -Jude On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 4:24 PM, Hendrik Boom hend...@topoi.pooq.com wrote: I have a three-or-four year-old laptop on which I am replacingg the hard drive. It seems to be old enough not to have proper virtualisatoin hardware. It currently dual-boots Debian testing, and, once in a blue moon, Windows XP. (So far the main problems I have had is to copy Windows' three partitions -- the one that runs, the so-called restore partition, and the EFI partition. I'm hoping that grub will find a way to make the running partition bootable. I managed to get clonezilla to copy the three partitions (even though the EFI partition seemed to violate what I know of the EFI specs in that it didn't have a FAT 12, 16, or 32 filesystem. Maybe grub will be able to figure out how to boot what needs booting.) But maybe this is the ideal time to try the iso on the new drive and try it on real hardware instead of a virtual machine. If things were to go massively wrong, I could always put the old disk back in. Except I need instructions just how to do this. It does not have a CD or DVD drive, but will boot from USB stick. How do I go about putting the installation .iso onto a USB stick so it will boot? Debian should be good enough to accomplish that, riight? Or is there another installation method it might be more useful to test? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Looking for advices in preparation to switch from Debian to Devuan
Hello Nuno, Thanks a lot for your comment. Yes. I am aware that Devuan is not ready yet. My question was about the preparation to switch from Debian to Devuan, whether I should stay on the testing packages (and keep updating weekly), downgrade to wheezy or even downgrade to squeeze. But I need the most recent version of packages. So last weekend I decided to stay on testing packages and pin *systemd* to Pin-Priority: -1. That is with the hope that all my important packages that depend on the versions of systemd related packages prior to last weekend, will still work in the next few months with weekly package update. If some packages would require new systemd related packages (so fail to be updated later on), then I will pin those packages to their previous versions. As the first Devuan release will be close to Debian jessie, I think I will not get any serious problems. But who knows the future? What is not clear to me is that, what will happen to udev or all systemd related packages that are currently required by nginx-extras and php5-fpm for instance? Will I need to do certain tweak or will switching the repository to Devuan and do dist-upgrade be enough to strip anything related to systemd? Kind regards, Anto On 23/02/15 13:59, Nuno Magalhães wrote: On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 1:48 AM, Anto arya...@chello.at wrote: No comment anyone? Actually, i didn't see your first post... For Debian, you could try, as a hack, to install either and older wheezy or squeeze, pin stuff and upgrade. There are also docs laying around for stippping systemd from wheezy to varying degrees of success. For Devuan, it's still in an alpha state. I am not an authority on the matter, but i'd recommend you wait until it's stable before using it in VPSs. HTH, Nuno ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
On Mon, 23 Feb 2015 07:47:32 -1000 Joel Roth jo...@pobox.com wrote: Didier Kryn wrote: I think this question goes together with the badge or logo question. It must go beyond sans-systemd; it is more about principles. Let's list some: - freedom of choice, - interchangealility of solutions to a given need, - reduce inter-dependencies to the strict minimum Don't know if KISS goes into details, but maybe it could inspire the logo. KISS Linux? It has rhythm. I think I can dance to it! SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Easy forkability
On Mon, 23 Feb 2015, Hendrik Boom wrote: On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 01:19:04PM +, KatolaZ wrote: On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 01:04:05PM +, Nuno Magalhães wrote: On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 2:38 PM, Ста Деюс sthu.d...@openmailbox.org wrote: But, at the first, what is planned to perform to protect «Devuan» from the guys, that got hold of the fantastic project «Debian»? In other words, if the guys come to «Devuan» and by their cruelty will start to «help» some of developers to corrupt the project, do abnormal, unnatural for the project things -- similar like constitution of «Debian» appeared, finnaly the «systemd» was forcibly set up: how we will protect our project? Very good question. Well the answer is simple: if such an unlikely invasion would happen, we will always have the opportunity to fork Devuan, for the good of its users :) This suggests that one of the goals of Devuan should be easy forkability. But it's not clear to me what this involves technically. Any suggestions? perhaps the SDK is a good start on this ;^) Are there aspects of the existing structure of Debian that made it more difficult to fork? no, not really. I'd say Debian until its version 7 is really fork friendly, not just technically, but also politically: a good amount of DDs have welcomed our fork seeing it brings some resilience and fresh air. The architecture of the OS is very open to ad-hoc usage and we should keep up with that. I also believe that without Devuan today, in one or two years from now systemd would be really hard to remove and that might make Debian harder to fork in the direction of init-freedom. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] KDE systemd lock-in
On Saturday, 21 de February de 2015 18:52:22 Nate Bargmann escribió: * On 2015 20 Feb 11:56 -0600, Steve Litt wrote: On Fri, 20 Feb 2015 08:59:33 -0800 Go Linux goli...@yahoo.com wrote: We all knew this was coming . . . KDE Will Depend on 'logind' and 'timedated' in 6 Months https://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=15/02/20/101235 Following on here since I inadvertently deleted Go Linux's post. Ughh, so they will apparently drop legacy support. Why? What does it hurt? Why is backward compatibility anathema to these people? I couldn't care less if they want to use various systemd services, but why can there only be one way? Imagine the chaos if the maintainers of the C library behaved in a like manner (okay, we'd have Python, but I digress ;-). I guess that I am simply too dense to get the current paradigm. Actually, I do get it and this is now simply unacceptable behavior from supposedly free software projects. - Nate This is the same as depending on a library like QT. The article specifies it will not depend on systemd as init, just on its services logind and timedated. Why not? If I were a developer and I had a library or service doing part of my work, I would link to it and delete duplicated code on my side. I do not re-program printf everytime I need some output. er Envite -- A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? OpenPGP key: 1586 50C8 7DBF B050 DE62 EA12 70B4 00F3 EEC7 C372 Spiral galaxies always have at least TWO arms. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] KDE systemd lock-in
Re: [Dng] KDE systemd lock-in From: Steve Litt LOL, for the first time in history, T.J. and I agree on something. I too said KDE would soon be in the systemd bot army. Hopefully, we will have many more such civilised agreements and disagreements, Steve! =) I look forward to them with a sense of enjoyment. The majority of the time, I find your comments very enlightening. Cheers! T.J. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] OT - It may be only one file, but it does point to the bigger problem!
On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 11:47:16AM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote: As far as I understand, COW means that the whole file is rewritten everytime you change a single byte in it (or is it only some extent?). That's a real mess when you are continuously appending to files hundreds of megabytes large, which is the job of a log server. No, only a single block. This is sometimes unwanted as it causes fragmentation -- your nice contiguous extents will split into small page/leaf-sized blocks all around, but NOCOW is still a terrible idea. It breaks pretty much all reasons one might want btrfs over an old-style filesystem (other than compression and checksums). NOCOW breaks the semantics behind reflinks and snapshots, which mean you can't use them for cloning stuff, backups, etc, anymore. Thus, every single program that uses NOCOW without an explicit request from the admin is broken and shouldn't be used anywhere near btrfs. If you happen to loose the log files, you don't loose precious data. If you have two clones, writing to one will overwrite the other. If you try to roll back to an old snapshot, whether for forensic or data recovery reasons, the log is lost. Nevertheless I would rather use a different filesystem for /var for example and keep btrfs for /usr and /home. Having all dpkg-managed files (ie, / except /home, /srv, perhaps /var/cache and friends if you micromanage) on a single btrfs subvolume is required for proper atomic snapshots. -- // If you believe in so-called intellectual property, please immediately // cease using counterfeit alphabets. Instead, contact the nearest temple // of Amon, whose priests will provide you with scribal services for all // your writing needs, for Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory prices. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Devuan Weekly News XIII
# Devuan Weekly News Issue XIII __Volume 002, Week 8, Devuan Week 13__ Released 24/02/12015 [HE](Why-HE) https://git.devuan.org/Envite/devuan-weekly-news/wikis/past-issues/volume-002/issue-013 ## Editorial In the same way that Devuan is the project of a group, with people more dedicated and people around giving advice and support, and thoughts and opinions, the Devuan Weekly News (soon to change name) is the project of a group as well. Like Devuan, it is a growing group, with a small core doing the hard resuming work but several other eyes providing advice, hunting for typos, making small text contibutions and, in general, proofreading. I want to expressly thank those people who make the last issues of DWN possible. You can [contribute too][wiki]! .-Envite ## Last Week in Devuan ### Unanswered questions Some threads on the list are questions that have been not answered. Isaac Dunham [asks][1] for the best way to split a library package, for his libsysdev project. ### [Trios packages openrc][2] lkcl reports that somebody at Debian User Forums reports that Trios GNU/Linux uses OpenRC and is free of systemd, and wonders about this kind of info being hard to find. golinux answers that this was already posted on this list. Some other list members informed that it works for them. ### [Adoption of packages][3] In the long thread about *towards systemd-free packages* hellekin reminds us that Volunteers for package adoption can now head to the [devuan-maintainers][0] project. ### [The Onion Principle][4] Noel shows us why concentrating in developing only core systemd-free packages does not mean that we are currently a real fork nor a derivative, since that depends on what we add to that core in subsequent releases. To resume the principle: The best way to create a very complex project is to add one layer at a time. ### [XFCE et al][5] David H points us at XFCE which runs in FreeBSD and OpenIndiana virtual Machines as well as in Linux, and is about to publish a new release. He wonders if one of the Devuan developers should contact them, and the unanimous answer was that he can do that himself. On a [later thread][6], David confirmed that he contacted them by e-mail. ### [removing systemd and libsystemd0 in a desktop][7] lkcl reports that he progressed in the task of removing libsystemd0 in a computer running a desktop. He later reports that turning off autoconfiguration on Xorg makes the trick. Isaac Dunham reports that he has been able too to have a working Xorg without udev, thanks to a clever trick: The trick is that input devices have a description at /sys/dev/char/major:minor/device/name Now it seems clear that a good part of the Depends on udev are not true dependencies. lkcl also [publicited it in slashdot][8]. ### [mdev packaging][9] In a branch to the previous thread, Isaac Dunham reports that he has packaged mdev. Then it follows some back and forth about issues with the new code. This is an architecture-independent script to make boxes bootable without udev. ### [mdev and udev][10] In a sub-branch of the previous branch, Godefridus Daalmans asks if purging udev means creates need for the old-style makedev. Isaac Dunham answers that mdev does not depend on makedev. ### [LoginKit on the pre-alpha][11] Dima reports that the Valentine's pre-alpha is able to work with LoginKit. ### [systemd free badge][12] Jaromil suggests the idea of creating a badge about a distribution being systemd-free, to be used by all distributions that share the same idea. hellekin raises the concern that it might be overpolarizing the issue and maybe giving systemd some publicity it doesn't deserve. Joel Roth, on the other hand, suggested using a different text for the badge on the lines of Classical Unix Administration and some others. David Harrison suggests changing to the stanza of an [Init Freedom badge][13]. Init Freedom gained some traction on the list. ### [Linux kernel and the force behind it][14] hal stars a discussion about an [Ars Technica article][15] about the development speed of the Linux kernel, and how it may be being directed by big companie like Red Hat Inc. Gravis makes a point about most patches coming from companies are for drivers, bug fixes and new features, not for changinf the main direction of the kernel development. John Crisp cites a [comment from Trevor Potts][16] to an article in The Register, the comment indicating that the point on systemd is that Red Hat is effectively trying to dominate the Linux ecosystem by making as much software as possible dependent on systemd and thus render Linux (and Linus) prescindible. Discussion then mutated in another one about intended audience for Devuan, and later on to a one about pros and cons of dbus over alternative solutions like standard IPC, SunRPC, and ZeroMQ. A branch on the audience side started by Nate praises the pragmatic approach of going with Xfce as Devuan's default desktop for the first release.
Re: [Dng] Important changes in Linux 3.20 (4.0?)
On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 11:40:06AM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 10:26:01AM -0500, Gravis wrote: Kernel live patching makes KDBUS and systemD support mandatory! i'm weary of KDBUS but live patching is something i consider too dangerous. --Gravis But why would it have to depend on systemd? Erm...I'm reading that kdbus was *not* merged. FWIW, kdbus was specifically mentioned when Linus blacklisted Kay Sievers. V3 seems to have gotten a lot of This needs a *lot* more documentation. Thanks, Isaac Dunham ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] WIP: mdev packaging
On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 4:19 AM, Isaac Dunham ibid...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 12:34:58AM +, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot ... dpkg-source: error: can't build with source format '3.0 (native)': native package version may not have a revision dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -nc problem goes away Just pushed 0.6.1; this is a native package, and I shouldn't have used 0.6-* (a/k/a don't trust dch). This update also adds several compat symlinks (/dev/std*, /dev/fd, /dev/core), a Breaks: for old initramfs-tools, and some fixes for disk_link.sh. Special thanks to lkcl for testing mdev so persistently. ehh it was fun. the Breaks: initramfs 0.116 was because i had tried building on wheezy, and the initramfs tools on wheezy resulted in 50 warnings at boot and being unable to find the rootfs. baad :) upgrading to initramfs-tools 0.116, problem went away immediately. next i'll endeavour to deploy it on my laptop, it can't do any harm as right now i'm running entirely without udev or mdev! l. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 8:54 PM, Hendrik Boom hend...@topoi.pooq.com wrote: Unless, of course, we choose to use the band's logo as well... Paul Stanley's tongue... Tux sticking its tongue out... dunno. Anyway will Devuan have release names? I'd go with Calimero for 1.0. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] GDM switched to wayland by default
On Monday, 23 de February de 2015 16:26:03 Steve Litt escribió: On Sun, 22 Feb 2015 11:06:03 -0500 Jude Nelson jud...@gmail.com wrote: Not according to their documentation: * the weston launcher program (weston-launch) needs extra privileges to issue the KMS ioctl()s. It can do so via systemd, or you can make weston-launch setuid root. Thank you Jude. That is *such* a relief. I already setuid root my X executable so slitt can run it. * weston can use systemd to find the directory in which to put its control socket, or you can set the environment variable $XDG_RUNTIME_DIR in your shell before running it. I love environment variables. This is one of the most stupid ones on history. er Envite -- A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? OpenPGP key: 1586 50C8 7DBF B050 DE62 EA12 70B4 00F3 EEC7 C372 Spiral galaxies always have at least TWO arms. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] OT - It may be only one file, but it does point to the bigger problem!
On Sunday, 22 de February de 2015 18:28:06 Jim Murphy escribió: [...] If I have a btrfs mirror and I didn't mess with it by setting FS_NOCOW, shouldn't I be able to recover the file? I would sure hope so. He creates this better way of logging, then he seems to not even care if you can use it. Isn't btrfs the contrary to KISS? We have RAID tools like mdadm for RAID, and filesystems like ext4 or Reiserfs for file storage. Why would I want a tool combining both? er Envite -- A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? OpenPGP key: 1586 50C8 7DBF B050 DE62 EA12 70B4 00F3 EEC7 C372 Spiral galaxies always have at least TWO arms. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
On Tuesday, 24 de February de 2015 00:35:59 Gravis escribió: ha! jude it's perfect. if there was ever a Master Control Program, it would be systemd. ;) Partitioning memory, controlling permissions, access to hardware, managing networks, shredding programs from memory... I always thought MCP was Linux, before Linux was conceived :D er Envite -- A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? OpenPGP key: 1586 50C8 7DBF B050 DE62 EA12 70B4 00F3 EEC7 C372 Spiral galaxies always have at least TWO arms. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] KDE systemd lock-in
I'm just wondering how this is going to affect KDE apps. I have several KDE apps installed on my current system, and really like them. It would be a pity if I couldn't use them in the future, though some of them could easily be replaced with non-KDE equivalents. I don't think you need to worry. KDE apps are linked to KDE libraries rather than systemd. I also have to wonder about Gnome apps, as I have several of those which are very useful. Gnome already depends on systemd, but the apps do not. The problem is that the Gnome desktop is that most packages files built for things like Debian require that systemd be installed. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
On February 23, 2015 at 7:35 PM Gravis rin...@adaptivetime.com wrote: ha! jude it's perfect. if there was ever a Master Control Program, it would be systemd. ;) --Gravis I have this image of the scene late in Tron where the MCP is turning red in the uplink after the data disk has been hurled into it. Superimpose a circle bar left over it to prohibit it. Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] KDE systemd lock-in
I'm just wondering how this is going to affect KDE apps. I have several KDE apps installed on my current system, and really like them. It would be a pity if I couldn't use them in the future, though some of them could easily be replaced with non-KDE equivalents. I also have to wonder about Gnome apps, as I have several of those which are very useful. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] OT - It may be only one file, but it does point to the bigger problem
On Monday, February 23, 2015 04:46:34 PM you wrote: My philosopher as a free software author is this: The buck stops with me. If my software screws up, it's my fault and my responsibility to fix, regardless of the actual root cause is in code I wrote or a tool I use. If I were having problems with two different compilers treating my code two different ways, I'd #ifdef the hell out of it to kludge it back to working order on both. But that's just me. I've seen a lot of free software authors say hey, it's not my fault, it's the __ library or tool. Doesn't help the user a heck of a lot. SteveT That's a fair point, in an overall sense, Steve. I'm afraid as a matter of practicality, I must disagree. Debugging on a compiler is a very specific skill-set. Asking someone who doesn't do that every day to fix what is probably a compiler bug is asking a lot - especially when you may have to venture into the realm of processor mnemonics and specific registers to fix the problem. In my opinion, that is especially relevant when dealing with ARM because there are so many makers of ARM processors with specific tweaks. T.J. I realize I should have spoken more clearly and for that I apologize. I'll endeavor to be clearer in the future. What I was trying say is that, I agree that you should make every effort to make sure your code works, ultimately you are somewhat hostage to the compiler. The average programmer has no skills in that area, and they should simply not make a greater mess by altering their design to accommodate someone else's flaw. These chains of flaws go one for years. What is really scary is that eventually people's code *depends* upon the flaw, and that - to me at least - is unacceptable. As a matter of personal pride, I refuse to kludge up my code to fix bugs in other people's code. Readable code is un-kludged code. If possible, I will hunt down the bug and fix it. If that is not possible, I will either rewrite the code to not trigger the bug, or a patch will be placed in a separate file to check for processor type. Have a great day! T.J. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Looking for advices in preparation to switch from Debian to Devuan
On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 7:15 PM, Anto arya...@chello.at wrote: What is not clear to me is that, what will happen to udev or all systemd related packages that are currently required by nginx-extras and php5-fpm for instance? On wheezy i don't see nginx-extras depending on udev or any systemd*. I don't have jessie but i couldn't trace any dependencies on packages.debian.org either. Where did you see these dependencies? Can you apt-rdepend them? The closest i could find was nginx-extras » nginx-common » init-system-helpers but it goes on to perl-base » dpkg » libselinux1 » libpcre3 and that's it. Maybe i missed something in libselinux1? Could you be using a third-party module that may have other dependencies? I didn't check Recommends. Can't say i use the nginx packages much, though, i've been compiling it from source since around 0.7. Back then even Sid was way behind and after 1.0 it (like any other httpd) got bundled into -extras, -full, -light, -whatever that never quite satisfied my needs. I didn't check php5-fpm (i tend to use php5-cgi with some script in - wait for it - /etc/init.d, but i forget which). As to what will happen, again, no authority, but the main goal for Devuan 1.0 is that whatever comes out then, is systemd-free. That includes whichever *dev it ships with (there are a few threads about possible candidates for this role). HTH, Nuno ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
