Re: [Dng] OT: separate GUI from commands

[Jude Nelson]

Hi Jonathan,

Shell-based command access to software like Powerpoint would indeed be
> great.  But I wonder if we can raise the bar a bit
> and consider an approach that could serve the largest audience.
> Especially users who themselves aren't developers or
> programmers.
>
> It seems to me such a system must be characterized by the following two
> properties:
> * basic - the language itself should be simple enough that the user
> doesn't have to spend too much time on boilerplate and
> learning eccentricities of the language.  (And the environment should be
> able to generate as much of the boilerplate on its own,
> especially for common patterns.)
>

What language would you propose?  If I create shui, I'd make it
language-agnostic so users can select whatever language(s) they want.  My
example with shell scripts was just to illustrate the possibility :)


> * visual - we know the user is already interacting with a graphical
> system.  So it makes sense that the command-based
> system should include graphical modes of interaction and visualize as much
> as it can.  (For example, letting the user choose
> from a set of familiar widgets rather than making them memorize a baroque
> naming system.)  It should look as familiar as it
> can without sacrificing power, letting the user see as much of the data
> flow without having to create the entire mental model
> on their own.
>

Yeah, a RAD tool would be a natural extension of the idea!


> Just imagine the possibilities if Powerpoint gave you access to an
> environment like that!
>

It didn't occur to me when I wrote my original email, but it turns out
Powerpoint can be scripted with VBA.  So can Libreoffice (it supports
Javascript and Python as well as Libreoffice Basic).  There are others,
like Blender, GIMP, KDE (i.e. SuperKaramba, Plasma, Kross), GNOME 3, the
NetBSD kernel (Lua), the Linux kernel (ePBF), and so on, that I had
forgotten to list.

If anything, I think it validates the case for a system like shui.  The
fact that different applications in different problem domains independently
gain built-in support for scripting suggests that there's a
naturally-occurring need to be able to interact with applications
programmatically as well as interactively.  So, why not design applications
with this need in mind from the get-go?

-Jude

PS  Not sure why, but your email hit my (Gmail's) spam filter.  Just
thought you should know :)
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [Dng] OT: separate GUI from commands

[Isaac Dunham]

On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 04:54:53PM +0200, Laurent Bercot wrote:
> On 27/05/2015 12:12, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> >I'm in the process of writing (yet) a(nother) editor and output formatter,
> >and on reading this, I started to wonder -- just how could one separate
> >a command-line version from the UI?  I can see that the output
> >formatter can be so separated (and very usefully), but the actual
> >editing?
> 
>  Maybe I'm misunderstanding the question, as I'm unfamiliar with the
> internal of editors. But IIUC, an editor is, by definition, a user
> interface, so the command-line / UI separation looks impossible or
> irrelevant to me here.
>  However, there are still some separations that you can perform when
> designing an editor. Right off the top of my head:
>  - Core functions vs. actual interface, which could be terminal-based
> or X-based. Think vim vs. gvim, or emacs -nw.
>  - programmable editor commands vs. interface to enter those commands.
> Think the sed engine in vi, or the LISP engine in emacs.
> 
>  If you factor your work correctly, it should be trivial for a program
> to get access to your editor commands via a library function call - and
> you can make a command-line tool to wrap useful calls. Also, there could

nvi (the Berkeley rewrite of vi, after abandoning their first version)
uses a shared backend (vi-ipc) connected to the frontend via pipe().
There are about four frontends: terminfo-based (curses was derived
from the code for this), tk, motif, and gtk.
I ended up finding out this as a result of making the motif frontend
build/work again.

Thanks,
Isaac Dunham
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [Dng] Everyone's favorite DE: GNOME3

[Neo Futur]

I dont really want to troll, but I have to say I m not included in
this "everyone" and the trinity, the kde3 fork, is great at many
levels, and systemd-free, and is my favorite DE

http://www.trinitydesktop.org/

give it a try !


On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 6:40 PM, Jaret Cantu  wrote:
> On 05/28/2015 08:09 AM, David Harrison wrote:
>>
>>
>> The more the merrier, I guess! Does this also make Cinnamon a prospect
>> further down the line? Or has Cinnamon diverged too much for Gnome to make a
>> difference?
>>
>> Brilliant work all round, anyway...
>>
>> Dave H
>
>
> Haven't tried yet, but I can!
> I actually haven't got a chance to do much Cinnaminnamon yet at all since it
> was still in Debian testing and largely unfit for public consumption last
> time it was on my mind.
>
> I suspect it will just be more config changes like gnome, for the most part.
>
>
> While we're All-The-DE-ing, I wanted to ask if Mate was infected as well,
> but I just tried an apt-get install instead to see if systemd showed up.
>
> I see libsystemd0 in mate, but no systemd in general. Pretty good, Mate
> Still want to rain the purifying fires upon you.  (I wonder if all my old
> Gnome2 configurations still work with Mate? I haven't seen those guys in
> years~!)
>
>
> ~jaret
>
> ___
> Dng mailing list
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [Dng] Everyone's favorite DE: GNOME3

[Jaret Cantu]

On 05/28/2015 08:09 AM, David Harrison wrote:


The more the merrier, I guess! Does this also make Cinnamon a prospect 
further down the line? Or has Cinnamon diverged too much for Gnome to 
make a difference?


Brilliant work all round, anyway...

Dave H


Haven't tried yet, but I can!
I actually haven't got a chance to do much Cinnaminnamon yet at all 
since it was still in Debian testing and largely unfit for public 
consumption last time it was on my mind.


I suspect it will just be more config changes like gnome, for the most part.


While we're All-The-DE-ing, I wanted to ask if Mate was infected as 
well, but I just tried an apt-get install instead to see if systemd 
showed up.


I see libsystemd0 in mate, but no systemd in general. Pretty good, 
Mate Still want to rain the purifying fires upon you.  (I wonder if 
all my old Gnome2 configurations still work with Mate? I haven't seen 
those guys in years~!)



~jaret
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [Dng] Everyone's favorite DE: GNOME3

[David Harrison]

On 28/05/2015 12:32, dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org wrote:

On 05/25/2015 05:31 PM, Jaret Cantu wrote:

>I am happy to report that (most of) the GNOME3 Desktop Environment has
>been made to work systemd-free, in all its spiffy, OpenGL-y goodness!

Thanks a lot for your work! I might be one of the few that appreciates
this DE, especially because it's quite clutter-free and has awesome (and
consistent) keyboard shortcuts that spare me a lot of time.


The more the merrier, I guess! Does this also make Cinnamon a prospect 
further down the line? Or has Cinnamon diverged too much for Gnome to 
make a difference?


Brilliant work all round, anyway...

Dave H
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [Dng] Everyone's favorite DE: GNOME3

[Corrado Primier]

On 05/28/2015 01:22 PM, Jaret Cantu wrote:
> Okay, a quick look at packages.debian.org says you're stretch-ing:
>
>   * jessie (stable)
>  (libs): gphoto2
> digital camera library
> 2.5.4-1.1+b2: amd64 arm64 armel armhf i386 mips mipsel powerpc
> ppc64el s390x
>   * stretch (testing)
>  (libs): gphoto2
> digital camera library
> 2.5.7-5: amd64 arm64 armel armhf i386 mips mipsel powerpc ppc64el
s390x
>
> I've only been doing this stuff with jessie; I haven't made
> stretch/ascii or sid/ceres renditions yet.
>
> Hey, your error message even said so (or at least made a shout-out to
> unstable):
>
> "This may mean that you have requested an impossible situation or if you
> are using the unstable distribution that some required packages have not
> yet been created or been moved out of Incoming"

Yes, I'm on ceres (should have specified it, sorry). However, I should
be able to see the package and at least attempt its installation from
jessie, but this is not the case:


root@corwin:~# apt-get install libgphoto2-port10/jessie
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
E: Release 'jessie' for 'libgphoto2-port10' was not found
root@corwin:~# apt-cache search libgphoto2-port10
root@corwin:~# apt-cache show libgphoto2-port10
N: Can't select versions from package 'libgphoto2-port10' as it is
purely virtual
N: No packages found


Perplexity ensues. Probably rebuilding is the easiest thing.

Corrado
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [Dng] Everyone's favorite DE: GNOME3

[Jaret Cantu]

On 05/28/2015 04:01 AM, Corrado Primier wrote:

I had a quick testing run and I couldn't make it work, not sure if I
should report a bug or if there are simply some things that are not
there yet and I'm doing it wrong.

I couldn't 'apt-get install gnome' because, down in the dependency
chain, gvfs-backends (which you packaged) depends on libgphoto2-port10,
which is not available and has been replaced by libgphoto2-port12.
However it looks like the replacement is not enough, since I already
have it installed:


root@corwin:~# apt-get install gvfs-backends
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
Some packages could not be installed. This may mean that you have
requested an impossible situation or if you are using the unstable
distribution that some required packages have not yet been created
or been moved out of Incoming.
The following information may help to resolve the situation:

The following packages have unmet dependencies:
  gvfs-backends : Depends: libgphoto2-port10 (>= 2.5.2) but it is not
installable
E: Unable to correct problems, you have held broken packages.
root@corwin:~# apt-get install libgphoto2-port10
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
Package libgphoto2-port10 is not available, but is referred to by
another package.
This may mean that the package is missing, has been obsoleted, or
is only available from another source
However the following packages replace it:
   libgphoto2-port12:i386 libgphoto2-port12

E: Package 'libgphoto2-port10' has no installation candidate
root@corwin:~# dpkg -l | grep libgphoto2-port
ii  libgphoto2-port12:amd64   2.5.7-5
amd64gphoto2 digital camera port library



[jaret@ragnarok ~]$ dpkg -l '*gphoto*' | grep ^ii
ii  libgphoto2-6:amd64  2.5.4-1.1+b2 amd64gphoto2 digital 
camera library
ii  libgphoto2-port10:amd64 2.5.4-1.1+b2 amd64gphoto2 digital 
camera port library


Welp, I'm stumped!

I have no packages marked as held-back.

Okay, a quick look at packages.debian.org says you're stretch-ing:

 * jessie (stable)
   (libs): gphoto2
   digital camera library
   2.5.4-1.1+b2: amd64 arm64 armel armhf i386 mips mipsel powerpc
   ppc64el s390x
 * stretch (testing)
   (libs): gphoto2
   digital camera library
   2.5.7-5: amd64 arm64 armel armhf i386 mips mipsel powerpc ppc64el s390x

I've only been doing this stuff with jessie; I haven't made 
stretch/ascii or sid/ceres renditions yet.


Hey, your error message even said so (or at least made a shout-out to 
unstable):


"This may mean that you have requested an impossible situation or if you 
are using the unstable distribution that some required packages have not 
yet been created or been moved out of Incoming"




~jaret

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [Dng] The more things change, the more they remain the same

[Laurent Bercot]

On 28/05/2015 11:43, Didier Kryn wrote:

porting to Musl was not finished yet - still problems
with dynamic linking he says. I prefer Musl to uClibc for several
reasons


 I'm using musl too. You can use the Aboriginal toolchains, even if
they're uClibc-based, to compile musl, and then link stuff against musl.
It just requires tweaking the musl-gcc.specs file a bit. More details
offline if you want!



finally bootstrapped my toolchain from
https://github.com/sabotage-linux/sabotage . But, even in Sabotage,
the compiler is not sysrooted :-(


 Yeah, I tried Sabotage too, and it's good, but I prefer the Aboriginal
toolchains, for this reason and other ones (for instance, a fully
static toolchain is much more elegant and easy to move around).

--
 Laurent
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [Dng] The more things change, the more they remain the same

[Didier Kryn]

Le 27/05/2015 17:51, Irrwahn a écrit :

No intention to lessen your main point, but that last observation
does not come as a surprise. Development systems inherently have
an installation overhead compared to simple runtime environments,
it's always been that way. However, it amazes me what heaps of
packages one has to wade through to get a minimal usable GNU/Linux
system/capable of replicating itself/. (I'm currently digging my
way through Linux from scratch, as an educational exercise.)


Hey Urban. I tried this path one or two years ago but it works only 
for one version of each package, and they were all pretty outdated, 
particularly the uClibc version. Therefore, I found it an interesting 
exercise, but I wouldn't expect it to produce a cutting edge 
environment. I tried with more up to date packages and wasted my time.



Le 27/05/2015 19:19, Laurent Bercot a écrit :

 I've never delved into the nine circles of toolchain building and
self-replication myself, because another guy has already done all the
hard work: http://landley.net/aboriginal/
 (Yes, I do love that project. It's an awesome time-saver.) 


Yeah, Laurent. Rob Landley is great! But the last time I checked 
Aboriginal, porting to Musl was not finished yet - still problems with 
dynamic linking he says. I prefer Musl to uClibc for several reasons, 
because it seems to be the most POSIX-compliant of all, and because it's 
API is closer to Glibc, so that very few patches are necessary to 
compile applications developped for Glibc. This is why I finally 
bootstrapped my toolchain from 
https://github.com/sabotage-linux/sabotage . But, even in Sabotage, the 
compiler is not sysrooted :-( and, of course, in LFS, Aboriginal and 
Sabotage, can only compile C and C++ :-(


Nevertheless, still checking Aboriginal from time to time, 
expecting the green light for Musl.


Didier

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [Dng] Everyone's favorite DE: GNOME3

[Corrado Primier]

On 05/25/2015 05:31 PM, Jaret Cantu wrote:
> I am happy to report that (most of) the GNOME3 Desktop Environment has
> been made to work systemd-free, in all its spiffy, OpenGL-y goodness!

Thanks a lot for your work! I might be one of the few that appreciates
this DE, especially because it's quite clutter-free and has awesome (and
consistent) keyboard shortcuts that spare me a lot of time.

> I have all of these packages built and ready for use on my supplementary
> mirror:
>
> http://pkg.realitysend.net/

I had a quick testing run and I couldn't make it work, not sure if I
should report a bug or if there are simply some things that are not
there yet and I'm doing it wrong.

I couldn't 'apt-get install gnome' because, down in the dependency
chain, gvfs-backends (which you packaged) depends on libgphoto2-port10,
which is not available and has been replaced by libgphoto2-port12.
However it looks like the replacement is not enough, since I already
have it installed:


root@corwin:~# apt-get install gvfs-backends
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
Some packages could not be installed. This may mean that you have
requested an impossible situation or if you are using the unstable
distribution that some required packages have not yet been created
or been moved out of Incoming.
The following information may help to resolve the situation:

The following packages have unmet dependencies:
 gvfs-backends : Depends: libgphoto2-port10 (>= 2.5.2) but it is not
installable
E: Unable to correct problems, you have held broken packages.
root@corwin:~# apt-get install libgphoto2-port10
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
Package libgphoto2-port10 is not available, but is referred to by
another package.
This may mean that the package is missing, has been obsoleted, or
is only available from another source
However the following packages replace it:
  libgphoto2-port12:i386 libgphoto2-port12

E: Package 'libgphoto2-port10' has no installation candidate
root@corwin:~# dpkg -l | grep libgphoto2-port
ii  libgphoto2-port12:amd64   2.5.7-5
amd64gphoto2 digital camera port library


I'll try rebuilding gvfs and its dependencies during the weekend and
report back, I suspect it should be enough.


Corrado
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [Dng] The result of my learning in the last few days

[Anto]

On 25/05/15 04:28, Anto wrote:


.

.

I have tried to respect the efforts of others by preserving their 
commits, but their last updates and commits on some files are not 
being shown on the "Files" tab.


.

.


After a lot of readings and trying to figure out what I did wrong in 
executing git commands, the above issue turned up to be the issue on 
gitlab. I just imported the repository into 
https://github.com/anto/eudev-deb and I can see all files have their 
last updates shown.


___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng