Re: [DNG] Call for devuan 1.0 "jessie" beta

[Daniel Reurich]

On 10/07/15 12:32, Franco Lanza wrote:


What we miss for beta?: ---

- many packages depends on libsystemd0 or other components. We need
to use override and/or rebuild them to remove systemd dependency, at
least for default install and commonly used daemons.

* cups is an important one

- finish the rebrand of the installer - build the "full" netinstall
iso

Is there anything i missed to list?



* Security repository and team.
* Email accounts for teams (for packaging and BTS support)
* Bug Tracking System (and integration for creating issues on gitlab)


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[DNG] Call for devuan 1.0 "jessie" beta

[Franco Lanza]

Hello all.

I think is time to draw a line and list what we have 
and what we miss to release a beta for jessie 

I ask all active developers/contributors to fix any
error in my list and to comment if anything isn't as
i write.

first a couple of things about jessie in devuan:

 - default DE will be xfce4
 - default DM is slim
 - no systemd components should be present in the default install.
   systemd-shim and libsystemd0 can be accepted only for non-default
   DE installs, and only for 1.0, we will work to remove any trace 
   in 1.1 if any ( i'm thinking about gnome in particular )
 - packages from debian that suggest to install systemd components but
   aren't really built to use it can be just forced using override,
   without rebuild them
 - no other changes except for rebranding will be done for 1.0
 - we will use udev, vdev is expected to be enough mature for ascii
   ( thanks Jude for your excellent work! )
 - no other changes are required for release except of course rebranding
 - we will release for: amd64, i386, armhf, armel, arm64. More
   architectures will be added for 1.1
 - 1.1 will be "jessie r1", ascii will be 2.0

What we have working:
-

 - Many packages are already disinfected 
 - the iso installer is almost ready, for beta we must finish rebranding
   and test for any major bug
 - amprolla needs a rewrite for performances, but it can be done after
   release, for the moment it just works.
 - the build infrastructure is working, everything can be improved, but
   it's enough for release

What we miss for beta?:
---

 - many packages depends on libsystemd0 or other components. We need to
   use override and/or rebuild them to remove systemd dependency, at
   least for default install and commonly used daemons.
 - finish the rebrand of the installer
 - build the "full" netinstall iso

Is there anything i missed to list?




 

-- 

Franco (nextime) Lanza
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Re: [DNG] systemd in wheezy, was: Re: bummer

[Isaac Dunham]

On Thu, Jul 09, 2015 at 01:36:23PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> By the way, I have no personal knowledge of how many actor sockets a
> listener socket can spawn off, but if I had to guess, I'd imagine 50
> would be way too low a number, if for no other reason than none of my
> current and former ISPs would have been able to serve httpd to the
> masses if 50 was the limit.
> 
> Hmmm, as far as just plain processes, maybe I'll make a fork bomb and
> see how many there are before the system bogs down. That should be
> interesting.

Here's a trivial forkbomb-ish program that I've used for some experiments.
(So as to recover safely, when fork() finally fails it will sleep briefly
and exit.)
It's probably not representative of even a trivial server, but on my 
1GB N270 netbook running Alpine Linux, with ~100 programs running
(ls -d /proc/[0-9]*|wc -l = 103), it reports 7880 forks.

Thanks,
Isaac Dunham
/* Written by Isaac Dunham in the year of our Lord 2015
 * No rights reserved, all warranties disclaimed.
 * (You can do whatever you want, but entirely at your own risk.)
 *
 * A small forkbomb-ish test program intended to test how many trivial
 * socket-using programs can run on a processor (and their effects on
 * the scheduler).
 * It gets a pair of connected sockets and repeatedly forks, with
 * the main process reading from the socket and the children
 * writing to it.
 * On resource exhaustion, all processes will sleep for 20 seconds
 * and exit, allowing you to briefly observe practical effects
 * before the system recovers.
 *
 * Compile with -DUSLEEP if you would rather see effects of a *lot* of
 * syscalls. (For example, what does the scheduler do?)
 */

#include 
#include 
#include 
#include 


int main(int argc, char *argv)
{
pid_t pid;
int count, sv[2];
char got;

if (socketpair(AF_UNIX, SOCK_STREAM, 0, sv))
return 32;

while ((pid = fork()) > 0) {
count += (read(sv[1], &got, 1) > 0 )? 1: 0 ;
printf("pid: %lld forks: %d\n", (long long)pid, count);
}
if (!pid) {
write(sv[0], "a", 1);
}
#ifdef USLEEP
count = 0;
while (count < 2) {
usleep(1000);
count ++;
}
#else
sleep(20);
#endif
return 0;
}
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Re: [DNG] Systemd-free MATE

[Jaret Cantu]

Both those packages were already scrubbed and put in the Devuan git, 
albeit just the stable releases.


Where exactly are your MATE packages? The search doesn't pull them up, 
so I am assuming off the Debuan site. Or maybe they were marked as private?



~jaret



On 07/09/2015 09:10 AM, Mitt wrote:

Hi everyone,

I guess here are some GNOME 2 fans, I've made previously 
libsystemd0-dependent packages (mate-screensaver and 
mate-session-manager) free of it.


The only problem is that Mate 1.10 is still in experimental, so I 
marked these packages as UNRELEASED in changelog (there is 1.8 in 
unstable), since we don't merge experimental repository.


P.S. This is my first experience with packaging actually.

Best regards,

Mitt
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[DNG] Mail writing interfaces / processes on Linux (was: systemd in wheezy)

[Laurent Bercot]

On 09/07/2015 19:36, Steve Litt wrote:

I know what you mean. In the past 9 months I've seen a huge uptick
in ambuification in emails, to the point where many times, you don't
know who said what, and it looks like the person is arguing with
himself, with temporal dislocations thrown in as people top post with
words like "it" instead of exactly what they mean, or "I agree" in a
thread with twelve different assertions.


 Blame the tool designers. Most users read far more than they write, so
tools are optimized for reading, and not much work goes into UIs for
writing. Users are lazy - that's nothing new - and simply don't put in
the necessary effort to properly format what they write; but a good UI
should make it easier for them, or even do it in their stead.
Unfortunately, they are few and far between.

 GMail is a prime example of this sad state of the art. The GMail Web UI
is optimized for "conversation reading", i.e. it will display all the
mails in a thread at once. But the way GMail can do that is that when
you reply to a "conversation", it automatically quotes the *whole*
conversation in your mail, and forces you to top-post, so the UI can
hide the quoted part that's below your answer.
 This is great for readers who use the GMail web interface. And it is
absolutely horrible for people who don't.

 My own lists only accept plain text - I consider that if you want to
communicate via a mailing-list, you should be able to handle plain text;
if you want HTML, go to a web forum. But obviously, not everyone agrees.



By the way, I have no personal knowledge of how many actor sockets a
listener socket can spawn off, but if I had to guess, I'd imagine 50
would be way too low a number, if for no other reason than none of
my current and former ISPs would have been able to serve httpd to
the masses if 50 was the limit.


 If you're interested in the "how many simultaneous clients can I handle ?"
question, a fundamental reference page is: http://www.kegel.com/c10k.html
 It was essentially written between 1999 and 2003, but parts of it have
been maintained until today, and most of it is still pretty accurate. The
underlying APIs or algorithms have not changed that much. TL;DR: if you
use the proper APIs, you can serve around the order of 1 clients
simultaneously on one socket. And that was already true in 1999.

 That is for heavy network servers. For services where you don't
expect 10k clients, you can use the fork/exec model just fine - that's
what inetd and tcpserver do, and it works pretty well. I expect you
could serve several hundreds without a problem, and in certain cases,
you could probably reach one or two thousands before experiencing
noticeable slowdowns.
 The first problem you'll encounter when doing that will probably be
the amount of resources, especially RAM, that you need to keep several
hundreds concurrent servers running. Most servers are not designed to
be especially thrifty with RAM, and if every instance is using a few
megabytes of private data, you're looking at a few gigabytes of RAM
if you even want to serve 1000 clients.

 Now, the original point was "What is the maximum number of processes
you can run on a system". Well, for all practical intents and purposes,
the answer really is "As many as you want". As I usually put it:
processes are not a scarce resource. Let me repeat for emphasis:
*processes are not a scarce resource.*

 I don't know what the scheduler algorithm was pre-Linux 2.6, but
in Linux 2.6, the scheduler was in O(1), meaning it scheduled your
processes in constant time, no matter how many you had. How awesome
is that ?
 They changed it for some reason, in some version of Linux 3.0 or
something around it. Now it's in O(log n), which is still incredibly
good: unless you have billions of billions of processes, you are not
going to noticeably slow down the scheduler. Fact is, you're going to
fill up the process table way before having scheduler trouble.

 Go ahead and make your fork bomb. You *will* notice a system slowdown,
but that will be because all the processes in your fork bomb are
perpetually runnable, so it's just that you will be hogging the CPU
with a potential infinity of runnable processes, and anything else
will have no timeslice left. You will see immediately that your shell
becomes unable to fork other commands - your fork bomb has filled up
the process table. But the system is still running, as best as it can
with all CPUs at perma-100% and a full process table.

 Historically, pid_t was 16 bits, and 32k processes won't kill your
scheduler. Nowadays, pid_t is 32 bits, and although there definitely
are limits that prevent you from having 2G processes, the sheer number
of processes isn't it.

 On a typical machine, the constrained resources are RAM and CPU. Those
are the resources you'll run out of first; and a process will consume
more of one or more of the other, depending on what it does and how it
is used.

 A Linux process takes some kernel memory (not

Re: [DNG] systemd in wheezy, was: Re: bummer

[Isaac Dunham]

On Thu, Jul 09, 2015 at 03:23:25AM -0500, T.J. Duchene wrote:
>  
> 
>  
> 
> From: James Powell
>> Systemd is not the answer to GNU/Linux any more than BusyBox is, and by all 
>> technicality, systemd is just an unmatured BusyBox.

> While there are some analogies, systemd is definitely not an “unmatured 
> BusyBox”.

Agreed, but I'd like to elaborate.

Systemd and busybox are both packages containing functionally unrelated
code that uses a common library, yes.
That's the extent of the similarity.

Busybox is a collection of mostly *drop-in* replacements for common tools,
where systemd implements its own interfaces.
As a result, there was never a need to patch openntpd (for example) to
make it log with busybox syslogd, nor to patch busybox ntpd to work with
syslog-ng.
It's possible to use busybox tar to extract bzipped tarballs even if you
completely disabled bzip2 support when building busybox.

As well as letting you use components from other projects, Busybox lets
you disable anything you want: the shells, mdev, init, cttyhack, getty,
the runit infrastructure, the dhcp client, ifconfig, route, ip, blkid,
mount

In contrast, systemd has a set of daemons that you must build, and then
other sets that can be added to that.
Many of these daemons depend on "APIs" provided exclusively by other
daemons in the systemd package.

Finally, Busybox combines all its seemingly unrelated functionality
in one package so as to provide a single binary that can boot or
rescue a system in as little space as possible. You will have a hard
time building a single binary from multiple packages.
In contrast, systemd creates a number of binaries that could not
possibly be combined: you will never have the same entrypoint to
the bootloader and init, though you could put init in a container
that's embedded in the kernel and stub the kernel with the bootloader.
That's no more a single binary than a self-extracting archive is.
And there's no logically consistent reason to put a bootloader, an
init system, a GUI that needs GTK, a time daemon, and a DNS server
all in the same package if they are not going to be combined and
are "modular".

Thanks,
Isaac Dunham
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Re: [DNG] systemd in wheezy, was: Re: bummer

[KatolaZ]

On Thu, Jul 09, 2015 at 11:01:15AM -0700, James Powell wrote:

[cut]

> 
> 3. Systemd requires udev to be viable, but udev and GNU/Linux do not need 
> systemd to be viable. If we can effectively, and fully, replace udev and 
> break the stranglehold it has had over systems for so long, systemd and kdbus 
> become completely irrelevant. Udev is like a spine, and if it can be broken, 
> the entirety of systemd will be broken as well. Vdev is not just the answer 
> for Devuan but all systems that want to remain autonomous from the systemd 
> dependency.


Agreed. And that's exactly why the work on vdev is so fundamentally
important, whatever the actual number fo distributions which will use,
make available or even consider vdev as an option. 

My2Cents

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] FW: systemd in wheezy, was: Re: bummer

[Go Linux]

On Thu, 7/9/15, T.J. Duchene  wrote:

 Subject: [DNG] FW:  systemd in wheezy, was: Re: bummer
 To: "'dng'" 
 Date: Thursday, July 9, 2015, 12:14 PM

 > -Original Message-
 > From: T.J. Duchene [mailto:t.j.duch...@gmail.com]
 > Sent: Thursday, July 9, 2015 12:14 PM
 > To: 'Teodoro Santoni'
 > Subject: RE: [DNG] systemd in wheezy, was: Re: bummer
 > 
 
 > 
 > Have a fabulous day, gentlemen. =)
 > 
 > T.J.



And ladies too, please.  ;)

golinux
 
 
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Re: [DNG] systemd in wheezy, was: Re: bummer

[James Powell]

I don't care about the context of the formatting, as my mobile can receive any 
type of email and I never use a client on my computer other than a web browser, 
but I do care for the message itself and it's content.

But I'll revamp what my points were:

1. GNU is an operating system, and Linux is a kernel and small collection of 
kernel tools to use the kernel with the GNU OS. Linux is not GNU, and GNU is 
not Linux, or tied to any specific kernel.

2. We don't need svchost be replicated on GNU/Linux. We don't need a GNU/Linux 
OS with ridiculous system requirements.

3. Systemd requires udev to be viable, but udev and GNU/Linux do not need 
systemd to be viable. If we can effectively, and fully, replace udev and break 
the stranglehold it has had over systems for so long, systemd and kdbus become 
completely irrelevant. Udev is like a spine, and if it can be broken, the 
entirety of systemd will be broken as well. Vdev is not just the answer for 
Devuan but all systems that want to remain autonomous from the systemd 
dependency.

From: Steve Litt
Sent: ‎7/‎9/‎2015 10:40 AM
To: dng@lists.dyne.org
Subject: Re: [DNG] systemd in wheezy, was: Re: bummer

On Thu, 9 Jul 2015 12:21:51 +0100
Arnt Gulbrandsen  wrote:

> kato...@freaknet.org writes:
> > And as a caveman, I would also very much appreciate a sensible
> > quoting, even if it seems that this little thing has become too
> > harsh to ask and too hard to obtain in the last few years...
>
> AOL. How about filtering away all mail whose subject already contains
> [DNG] but has no References field?
>
> Arnt

And, wait for it, wait for it, /dev/null any message whose subject
starts with "[DNG] Dng Digest, Vol 10". Seriously, there's a special
place in hell for those guys.

I also agree with The Caveman and would phrase it a little differently:
We're all in this to bestow and gain information. To the extent that our
communications are unambiguous, we will be efficient in bestowing and
gaining information.

SteveT

Steve Litt
July 2015 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21
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Re: [DNG] systemd in wheezy, was: Re: bummer

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 9 Jul 2015 12:21:51 +0100
Arnt Gulbrandsen  wrote:

> kato...@freaknet.org writes:
> > And as a caveman, I would also very much appreciate a sensible
> > quoting, even if it seems that this little thing has become too
> > harsh to ask and too hard to obtain in the last few years...
> 
> AOL. How about filtering away all mail whose subject already contains
> [DNG] but has no References field?
> 
> Arnt

And, wait for it, wait for it, /dev/null any message whose subject
starts with "[DNG] Dng Digest, Vol 10". Seriously, there's a special
place in hell for those guys.

I also agree with The Caveman and would phrase it a little differently:
We're all in this to bestow and gain information. To the extent that our
communications are unambiguous, we will be efficient in bestowing and
gaining information.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2015 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21
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Re: [DNG] systemd in wheezy, was: Re: bummer

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 9 Jul 2015 12:04:27 +0100
Arnt Gulbrandsen  wrote:

> Steve Litt writes:
> > Context? Who said anything about fifty?
> 
> T.J. Duchene about a half-hour before my posting, I think.

Ah, sorry, that explains it, I don't receive his emails.

Anyway, I'd consider it a personal favor to myself if you could include
at least a tiny bit of the bare essence of the text to which you're
replying.

> I might be wrong. The quoting was difficult to decipher, since that
> message uses HTML colour coding to indicate quoting, and the're are
> quoted blocks from James Powell, who in turn uses Outlook-style
> quoting, except buggily so an outlook-style parser can't grok it.
> Difficult. But I think it was T.J. Duchene.

I know what you mean. In the past 9 months I've seen a huge uptick in
ambuification in emails, to the point where many times, you don't know
who said what, and it looks like the person is arguing with himself,
with temporal dislocations thrown in as people top post with words like
"it" instead of exactly what they mean, or "I agree" in a thread with
twelve different assertions.

By the way, I have no personal knowledge of how many actor sockets a
listener socket can spawn off, but if I had to guess, I'd imagine 50
would be way too low a number, if for no other reason than none of my
current and former ISPs would have been able to serve httpd to the
masses if 50 was the limit.

Hmmm, as far as just plain processes, maybe I'll make a fork bomb and
see how many there are before the system bogs down. That should be
interesting.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2015 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21
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[DNG] FW: systemd in wheezy, was: Re: bummer

[T.J. Duchene]

> -Original Message-
> From: T.J. Duchene [mailto:t.j.duch...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, July 9, 2015 12:14 PM
> To: 'Teodoro Santoni'
> Subject: RE: [DNG] systemd in wheezy, was: Re: bummer
> 
> > >
> > > > > And as a caveman, I would also very much appreciate a sensible
> > > > > quoting, even if it seems that this little thing has become too
> > > > > harsh to ask and too hard to obtain in the last few years...
> > > >
> > > > Believe me, the text/plain version is worse, having no quoting at all.
> > > > But it took me only three rereads to understand who said what, so
> > whatever...
> > > >
> > >
> > > Believe me, if people knew how to quote properly, then you could
> > > immediately understand who said what in reply to what else written
> > > by whoever else. As always, evil is not in the medium, but rather in
> > > how one (mis-)uses it...
> 
> Sorry about that, boys. =)
> 
> Hopefully, you can read this better.   To me, it makes no difference as I can
> read either equally well.  Personally, I could care less.  I just usually use
> whatever the default is.  I work with a variety of systems all the time.  I 
> don't
> let it bother me.  Every bit of software has its quirks these days.  Business
> likes HTML mail because of formatting.
> 
> James P.: "I also do not think recreating SVCHOST is wise. I followed Windows
> since 2000 and since then SVCHOST has pulled in more and more growing the
> system requirements exponentially from 266mhz and 32mb RAM to 1 GHz
> and 1 GB RAM. This should NOT be done in GNU/Linux."
> 
> Me: "That is really a massive oversimplification.  You really have to remember
> that you are demanding the computer perform an average of 50+ processes
> at any given time.  You can’t blame SVCHOST for that.  The credit for that
> goes to people demanding more.  If you want less resource use, people
> should start monotasking."
> 
> Granted, 50 is usually an underrated example.  Most "modern" operating
> systems have at least 50 processes running at a given time.  I've been around
> long enough that I've seen personal computers go from very simple process
> models to what we have today, and while there is something to be said for
> how the efficiency of individual processes  are handled, virtually every OS 
> has
> had an ever increasing gluttony for more processing power, not less.
> 
> I assumed you all would actually have more to say about my comments
> regarding Linux "retreading the same ground" as Microsoft, but surprises are
> usually always good.
> 
> Have a fabulous day, gentlemen. =)
> 
> T.J.


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Re: [DNG] systemd in wheezy, was: Re: bummer

[Teodoro Santoni]

On Thu, Jul 09, 2015 at 03:23:33PM +0100, KatolaZ wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 09, 2015 at 03:36:15PM +0200, Teodoro Santoni wrote:
> 
> [cut]
> 
> > > And as a caveman, I would also very much appreciate a sensible
> > > quoting, even if it seems that this little thing has become too harsh
> > > to ask and too hard to obtain in the last few years...
> > 
> > Believe me, the text/plain version is worse, having no quoting at all.
> > But it took me only three rereads to understand who said what, so 
> > whatever...
> > 
> 
> Believe me, if people knew how to quote properly, then you could
> immediately understand who said what in reply to what else written by
> whoever else. As always, evil is not in the medium, but rather in how
> one (mis-)uses it...
> 
> HND
> 
> KatolaZ

The email is an old media, not as old as the snail mail, but  old enough to 
convince me there is no hope: in *their* clients, quotes work fine. 

--
Teodoro Santoni

Something is wrong. I don't wanna compile 20 KB of Go code to list files.
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Re: [DNG] systemd in wheezy, was: Re: bummer

[KatolaZ]

On Thu, Jul 09, 2015 at 03:36:15PM +0200, Teodoro Santoni wrote:

[cut]

> > And as a caveman, I would also very much appreciate a sensible
> > quoting, even if it seems that this little thing has become too harsh
> > to ask and too hard to obtain in the last few years...
> 
> Believe me, the text/plain version is worse, having no quoting at all.
> But it took me only three rereads to understand who said what, so whatever...
> 

Believe me, if people knew how to quote properly, then you could
immediately understand who said what in reply to what else written by
whoever else. As always, evil is not in the medium, but rather in how
one (mis-)uses it...

HND

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] systemd in wheezy, was: Re: bummer

[Teodoro Santoni]

On Thu, Jul 09, 2015 at 09:52:07AM +0100, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:
> Fifty processes, you say...
> 
> ftp.cdrom.com was a single freebsd server, and it served around 10k
> simultaneous users in the nineties. There were 10k processes, each of which
> was actively performing disk and network I/O.
> 
> There is a limit to how many processes one can run on a single server
> without overstraining the scheduler, but fifty isn't it.

Saying "one process per user" is not at all as terrible as saying "50 
processes per user".
I think that was more a matter of what you deem right and useful to have 
running, not what it's theorically possible to fit in the scheduler.
Fun fact: counting zombie processes, I actually have 50 processes running 
under my user, according to ps.

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Teodoro Santoni

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Re: [DNG] systemd in wheezy, was: Re: bummer

[Teodoro Santoni]

On Thu, Jul 09, 2015 at 12:12:37PM +0100, KatolaZ wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 09, 2015 at 12:04:27PM +0100, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:
> > Steve Litt writes:
> > >Context? Who said anything about fifty?
> > 
> > T.J. Duchene about a half-hour before my posting, I think.
> > 
> > I might be wrong. The quoting was difficult to decipher, since that
> > message uses HTML colour coding to indicate quoting, and the're are
> > quoted blocks from James Powell, who in turn uses Outlook-style
> > quoting, except buggily so an outlook-style parser can't grok it.
> > Difficult. But I think it was T.J. Duchene.
> > 
> 
> That's why I, the caveman, has always "suggested" to accept only text
> emails in public MLs, and send the rest to /dev/null, including html
> and attachments...
> 
> And as a caveman, I would also very much appreciate a sensible
> quoting, even if it seems that this little thing has become too harsh
> to ask and too hard to obtain in the last few years...

Believe me, the text/plain version is worse, having no quoting at all.
But it took me only three rereads to understand who said what, so whatever...

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[DNG] Systemd-free MATE

[Mitt]

Hi everyone,

I guess here are some GNOME 2 fans, I've made previously 
libsystemd0-dependent packages (mate-screensaver and 
mate-session-manager) free of it.


The only problem is that Mate 1.10 is still in experimental, so I marked 
these packages as UNRELEASED in changelog (there is 1.8 in unstable), 
since we don't merge experimental repository.


P.S. This is my first experience with packaging actually.

Best regards,

Mitt
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Re: [DNG] systemd in wheezy, was: Re: bummer

[Hendrik Boom]

On Thu, Jul 09, 2015 at 02:34:53PM +0200, Philip Lacroix wrote:
> Am 09.07.2015 13:12 schrieb KatolaZ:
> >That's why I, the caveman, has always "suggested" to accept only text
> >emails in public MLs, and send the rest to /dev/null, including html
> >and attachments...
> >
> >And as a caveman, I would also very much appreciate a sensible
> >quoting, even if it seems that this little thing has become too harsh
> >to ask and too hard to obtain in the last few years...
> 
> Agreed. I *always* disable HTML viewing & writing in my e-mail
> clients. No mercy.

I just use mutt.  The caveman's faithful dog.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] systemd in wheezy, was: Re: bummer

[Philip Lacroix]

Am 09.07.2015 13:12 schrieb KatolaZ:

That's why I, the caveman, has always "suggested" to accept only text
emails in public MLs, and send the rest to /dev/null, including html
and attachments...

And as a caveman, I would also very much appreciate a sensible
quoting, even if it seems that this little thing has become too harsh
to ask and too hard to obtain in the last few years...


Agreed. I *always* disable HTML viewing & writing in my e-mail clients. 
No mercy.


Another Caveman
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Re: [DNG] systemd in wheezy, was: Re: bummer

[Arnt Gulbrandsen]

kato...@freaknet.org writes:

And as a caveman, I would also very much appreciate a sensible
quoting, even if it seems that this little thing has become too harsh
to ask and too hard to obtain in the last few years...


AOL. How about filtering away all mail whose subject already contains [DNG] 
but has no References field?


Arnt

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Re: [DNG] systemd in wheezy, was: Re: bummer

[KatolaZ]

On Thu, Jul 09, 2015 at 12:04:27PM +0100, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:
> Steve Litt writes:
> >Context? Who said anything about fifty?
> 
> T.J. Duchene about a half-hour before my posting, I think.
> 
> I might be wrong. The quoting was difficult to decipher, since that
> message uses HTML colour coding to indicate quoting, and the're are
> quoted blocks from James Powell, who in turn uses Outlook-style
> quoting, except buggily so an outlook-style parser can't grok it.
> Difficult. But I think it was T.J. Duchene.
> 

That's why I, the caveman, has always "suggested" to accept only text
emails in public MLs, and send the rest to /dev/null, including html
and attachments...

And as a caveman, I would also very much appreciate a sensible
quoting, even if it seems that this little thing has become too harsh
to ask and too hard to obtain in the last few years...

HND

TheCaveman

-- 
[ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ]
[ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ]
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Re: [DNG] systemd in wheezy, was: Re: bummer

[Arnt Gulbrandsen]

Steve Litt writes:

Context? Who said anything about fifty?


T.J. Duchene about a half-hour before my posting, I think.

I might be wrong. The quoting was difficult to decipher, since that message 
uses HTML colour coding to indicate quoting, and the're are quoted blocks 
from James Powell, who in turn uses Outlook-style quoting, except buggily 
so an outlook-style parser can't grok it. Difficult. But I think it was 
T.J. Duchene.


Arnt

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Re: [DNG] systemd in wheezy, was: Re: bummer

[Steve Litt]

On Thu, 9 Jul 2015 09:52:07 +0100
Arnt Gulbrandsen  wrote:

> Fifty processes, you say...
> 
> ftp.cdrom.com was a single freebsd server, and it served around 10k 
> simultaneous users in the nineties. There were 10k processes, each of
> which was actively performing disk and network I/O.
> 
> There is a limit to how many processes one can run on a single server 
> without overstraining the scheduler, but fifty isn't it.
> 
> Arnt

Context? Who said anything about fifty?

SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2015 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21
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Re: [DNG] systemd in wheezy, was: Re: bummer

[Arnt Gulbrandsen]

Fifty processes, you say...

ftp.cdrom.com was a single freebsd server, and it served around 10k 
simultaneous users in the nineties. There were 10k processes, each of which 
was actively performing disk and network I/O.


There is a limit to how many processes one can run on a single server 
without overstraining the scheduler, but fifty isn't it.


Arnt

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Re: [DNG] systemd in wheezy, was: Re: bummer

[T.J. Duchene]

 

 

From: James Powell [mailto:james4...@hotmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2015 2:37 PM
To: T.J. Duchene; 'dng'
Subject: RE: [DNG] systemd in wheezy, was: Re: bummer

 

I also do not think recreating SVCHOST is wise. I followed Windows since 2000 
and since then SVCHOST has pulled in more and more growing the system 
requirements exponentially from 266mhz and 32mb RAM to 1 GHz and 1 GB RAM. This 
should NOT be done in GNU/Linux.

That is really a massive oversimplification.  You really have to remember that 
you are demanding the computer perform an average of 50+ processes at any given 
time.  You can’t blame SVCHOST for that.  The credit for that goes to people 
demanding more.  If you want less resource use, people should start monotasking.

  

 
Systemd is not the answer to GNU/Linux any more than BusyBox is, and by all 
technicality, systemd is just an unmatured BusyBox.

 

While there are some analogies, systemd is definitely not an “unmatured 
BusyBox”.

 

I don't know how things will end, but I can say this, once udev is broken by 
vdev, and it will be, things will change because of kdbus issues. However, if 
kdbus being moved into udev to replace netlink will kill eudev futures, vdev 
will be there without kdbus doing the same work.

I wouldn’t guess.  I do think that everyone concerned about ldbus is overly 
concerned at this point.  Frankly, even if the worst comes to pass and kdbus is 
accepted into the kernel, I find the whole situation somewhat hilarious.  
Everyone is so concerned about systemd/kdbus when you can always apply the 
ultimate sanction and patch to remove them.  That is the whole point of 
opensource.  

My personal solution to the whole FLOS/Systemd/kdbus problem was to realize 
that I actually don’t care if Linux goes off the deep end.   It’s going to 
happen whether I am there or not, and it is pretty clear that they are 
retreading the same ground that brought down Microsoft.  So I decided that I 
use computers to perform tasks. Generally most of code for applications are 
written with a cross-platform kit like Qt and generally POSIX.  As a 
programmer, I can either port them to whatever I am using or run them in a VM.  

What Linux does to itself is less of a concern.  I watch, wait, and have 
wonderful conversations with people such as yourself, but I certainly do not 
lose sleep over Linux’s future.

 

 

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Re: [DNG] systemd in wheezy, was: Re: bummer

[Jaromil]

On Wed, 08 Jul 2015, T.J. Duchene wrote:

>The management of many of the binary distributions has fallen to
>groups of people rather obsessed with driving Linux as a competitor
>to Windows. 

this is exactly how I see it and the reason why projects like GNOME or
GStreamer made me less and less passionate about distro development.
These groups do not really contemplate different needs than theirs (as
if usability would be universal and not at all subjective) and have
managed to hog most visibility as well philantropic streams of resources
in the free and open source software scene. With time becomes obvious
that what they did is not so important as they hoped, for good reasons
being debated here.

Today we need that all those organizations using GNU/Linux as reliable
and ad-hoc infrastructure, not as a shallow and emulative idea of
consumption, get involved in developing and supporting development that
goes into another direction.  We need it at Devuan to grow and become
sustainable and we are not the even the only one needing it. Such
concerns need to be communicated and debated around, perhaps not just in
public, but also in the board of professional organizations.

I'm always grateful for all the good prose being contributed in this
place, this also helps not only motivating developers, but also raising
a consciousness that will benefit the F/OSS communities at large.

ciao

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